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Ben 10 MFTL+ Anti Feats

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Reiner04 said:
Feedback could react to Tachyon cannon.
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Not sure about this because of light speed standards but this Tachyon cannon argument was discussed to not have enough context behind it in this thread
Reiner04 said:
Conductoids (Feedback's species) can easily travel throughout Teslavorr, a nebula roughly 60 light-years in diameter
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Again this feedback argument was proposed in this thread but it was discussed and rejected
Reiner04 said:
Gravattack reacted to Time Beast's travel speed, which is stated to be FTL.
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Again addressed and rejected in this same thread. I forgot to mention but this time beast argument terrible because despite having time cycles and having a head start Ben, Rook, Paradox and Ben 10K are almost caught in a black hole.
 
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Robo432343 said:
Not sure about this because of light speed standards but this Tachyon cannon argument was discussed to not have enough context behind it in this thread
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I am not sure why are you even keep linking the same thread than rather than even discussing what are your actual concerns with the said feat. That thread deals with relativstic speed and this thread deals with MFTL+ speed, a single rating can turn the relevance of the arguements upside down. For instance, Jetray's sol speed statement might work as a arguement in that thread but it doesn't mean anything in this thread other than proving that most anti shit stuff jetray didn't reacted to, supposedly, doesn't makes sense. Amd at best, i can simply disagree with that 5 yrs old thread conclusion based on reasons i provided.

Robo432343 said:
Again addressed and rejected in this same thread. I forgot to mention but this is terrible because despite having time cycles and having a head start Ben, Rook, Paradox and Ben 10K are almost caught in a black hole.
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Time cycles has statement of having travel speed faster than time. And i don't need to mention that time cycle's travel speed, by far, is not related to Characters combatt speed. So when you say its a terrible arguement, i don't know the **** you are talking about.
 
Robo432343 said:
yeah and the joke is every ben 10 character having MFTL spesd
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Nah it's your arguments that isn't even prepared that good bro like Jetray not reacting to Vilgax and implying that he is a reguler meteor, nah 💀 having MFTL+ combat and reactions isn't bad for those characters they have severely feats about that as well and the given anti-feats by you, the said anti-feats doesn't really make sense in the first place
 
Lort15 said:
and implying that he is a reguler meteor, nah 💀
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That’s not what I implied at all. I showed Jetray failing to dodge something slow and you somehow turned that into ‘Vilgax is a meteor.’ If you need to misread my argument this badly to respond, your reading comprehension is the real joke here
 
Robo432343 said:
That’s not what I implied at all. I showed Jetray failing to dodge something slow and you somehow turned that into ‘Vilgax is a meteor.’ If you need to misread my argument this badly to respond, your reading comprehension is the real joke here
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"Jetray couldn't dodge a meteor" you do realize what's that mean right and if you don't really mean it and then fix your arguments in that way, and slow according to what? the feats on screen are ofc in slow motion to show us the said events just because it seems slow to your eyes doesn't mean it is actually slow in their own real time, like we have Characters in this wiki who can do after images via their own speed but you don't see them at ftl because of that only, the speed feats on the show is visiually in slow motion for us to watch the show
 
Ultimate-Rex1 said:
Idk why but i can't reply to @Robo432343

However, it not scales to his travel speed, it scales to his energy attack speed, and we literally see many characters can react to it, like Malware. And even his energy attacks is comparable to Tachyon cannon speed
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You can't reply to messages that do not have any text outside of quotes
like these
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You just reply to a earlier message by them and edit the text to just be "snip" or a dot if you want to tag them
 
 
Robo432343 said:
Ben 10 Mini Bible states Jetray is several times the speed of sound
Ben 10 Ultimate Guidebook states Jetray flies at several times the speed of sound
Ben 10 Alien Force: The Complete Guidebook states Jet Ray can fly at several times the speed of sound
Alien Force Vol 6 Jetray Data states Jetray can move through air or water at several times the speed of sound
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Sure, they state that, so? It's never implied that's his limits, just like a bunch of DC guide books state that Flash is Rel+, but in the actual comics he has MFTL+ shit, same here, especially since it is not inconsistent at all.

Just quit all of this, we've been doing this for 4 pages and half of it is just you ignoring what we say for the sake of your downplay.
 
 
Reiner04 said:
He only has it in combat and reaction speed. Ben, even in his human form, has been able to tag opponents like Manny, a member of the Tetramand species, and disarm him, his speed was also clesrly comparable. Grandpa Max has also spent a large part of his life as a Plumber, fighting against various alien species and he is the onky guy in the Universe that Azmuth felt worthy of Omnitrix.
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You can hide behind whatever smokescreen you want of "oh its combat speed not travel speed" but you and everyone else in their heart of hearts knows ******* Grandpa Max was not meant to be that fast in any regard, along with any regular human for that matter. It's only because of this wikis policy of ignoring all critical thinking beyond "feats" and authorial intent that we still have him there. It's part of why literally everyone clowns on the site.
 
Robo432343 said:
Ben 10 Mini Bible states Jetray is several times the speed of sound
Ben 10 Ultimate Guidebook states Jetray flies at several times the speed of sound
Ben 10 Alien Force: The Complete Guidebook states Jet Ray can fly at several times the speed of sound
Alien Force Vol 6 Jetray Data states Jetray can move through air or water at several times the speed of sound
Click to expand...
If verse has even a single feat that goes past, it will be simply null, and forget about the calc, a simple "show script" that you brought which is more canon than any guidebook in the verse itself states he crossed stars and reached nearly sol itself contradicts it. Not to mention show feats that are calc'd itself is MFTL+. You said there are supposedly tons of anti-feats that debunks the verse consistent needs of MFTL+ combatt and reaction speed against the likes of vilgax, sugilite and Aggregor but brought nothing more than bunch of tertiory canon guidebooks statement that has never been referenced in the show.

Da3ggman said:
You can hide behind whatever smokescreen you want of "oh its combat speed not travel speed" but you and everyone else in their heart of hearts knows ******* Grandpa Max was not meant to be that fast in any regard, along with any regular human for that matter. It's only because of this wikis policy of ignoring all critical thinking beyond "feats" and authorial intent that we still have him there. It's part of why literally everyone clowns on the site.
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I can agree with that to an extent, but the same applies to most verses, not just Ben 10. For example, I don’t think the author of Beyblade Metal intended for the bladers to be portrayed as significantly stronger than average humans. However, when a series consistently involves supernatural elements far beyond normal human levels, the regular human characters who appear frequently are bound to end up with feats that surpass typical human capabilities. Since consistency and on-screen feats are what matter most here, we can’t really ignore them. Tbh, I’ve been in more offsite fictional debates than onsite ones, and from my experience, those discussions tend to ignore consistency and author intent even more. People often focus on a single feat and disregard everything else as anti-feats as in "outliers". VSBW, on the other hand, is often seen as more strict, sometimes even accused of downplaying characters in the name of consistency. So a lot of this really comes down to differences in perspective. Also like, CSaP exist for a very reason.
 
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Lort15 said:
How does this debunk anything, the bible doesn't say jetray can't go faster than that speed it says him being capable of reaching to those ratings not saying his max is that
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Ah yes it said he can go faster than sound so many times, just for him to actually be mftl+ casually instead
what proof is there that in the instances where people react to him, that he was moving at mftl+ and not at mach+ then
same for any other instance of that happening with other characters
 
Mommyleona said:
Ah yes it said he can go faster than sound so many times, just for him to actually be mftl+ casually instead
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Because he's faster than sound doesn't put a cap at his speed?
Mommyleona said:
what proof is there that in the instances where people react to him, that he was moving at mftl+ and not at mach+ then
same for any other instance of that happening with other characters
Click to expand...
Unless there's a specific reason the MFTL+ stuff is not done via casual speed, he's going this fast against other people
 
Mommyleona said:
Ah yes it said he can go faster than sound so many times, just for him to actually be mftl+ casually instead
what proof is there that in the instances where people react to him, that he was moving at mftl+ and not at mach+ then
same for any other instance of that happening with other characters
Click to expand...
Its a rule here that if the guy1 is seen comparable to guy2 in a combatt then he will have all comparable statistics to the guy2. Its not even first thing happening for Ben 10 only. Its been happening here since ages for all ******* verse. Since when we started assuming that the other guy might be holding back and shit simply because he can? Entire scaling chain and powerscaling of tons of verses will fall apart if we start doing it. We even had a thread abt it.
vsbattles.com

An Unspoken/Unwritten Wiki Standard?

So in this thread, according to one of our staff members (Shadowbokunohero), we and I quote "also based Wiki standards we assume they they using the potency of their base stat unless specified or greater context is given." When the **** was this standard established? I don't recall this...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Reiner04 said:
I suppose I will list all the combatt reaction feats in Ben 10.


Jetray attacks are faster than his own flying speed consistently across the series and per our combatta nd reaction page:


Suggilite, Aggregor, Jetray have all demonstrated it as can be read in this thread.


More feats of reacting to FTL characters but exact quantity is unknown:
It also shows that if Aliens and Characters aren't consistently MFTL+, they are getting blitz to death by likes of Vilgax or Aggregor which kinda of messes up entire Ben 10 show.

And side note; Most of Anti-feats are either about travel speed or relies on lazers that are coming from advance Alien techs.
Click to expand...

@Damage3245 @Nierre @Firestorm808 @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData

These are the currently well-known MFTL+ and FTL (although FTL one is with unspecified magnitude) reaction feats in Ben 10, which i think is consistent enough. There are additional feats if we include WoG that was accepted by Qawsedf, but I would prefer not to base the evaluation on that, as I’m not particularly in favor of relying on WoG. Still, I’m mentioning it for completeness since it is part of the accepted material and Mods are supoosed to see it despite my personal preference:

Ultimate-Rex1 said:
Waybig reacted to a Conquest Ray, who scales to this
Click to expand...

That said, most of the anti-feats being brought up relate to travel speed and do not apply to reaction or combat speed. Flight speed being MFTL+ has clear plot relevance, such as Aggregor needing to traverse galaxies to collect the Map of Infinity. Characters throughout the series have also shown consistent reactions to these high-speed movements of such flight users.

As for the reaction-based anti-feats:

  • A character throws a car at Ben, and Ben fails to dodge it.
    • Attack speed is included in such actions, so this does not serve as a valid anti-feat on its own.
  • Ben’s aliens fail to dodge attacks from advanced alien technology.
    • These are high-end alien weapons, not standard ones, so this does not qualify as a reliable anti-feat either.
  • Jetray fails to dodge his own attacks or Vilgax’s attacks.
    • Vilgax’s speed is comparable to Jetray’s, and Jetray’s attack speed exceeds his own flight speed.
 
Reiner04 said:
@Damage3245 @Nierre @Firestorm808 @DarkDragonMedeus @SomebodyData

These are the currently well-known MFTL+ and FTL (although FTL one is with unspecified magnitude) reaction feats in Ben 10, which i think is consistent enough. There are additional feats if we include WoG that was accepted by Qawsedf, but I would prefer not to base the evaluation on that, as I’m not particularly in favor of relying on WoG. Still, I’m mentioning it for completeness since it is part of the accepted material and Mods are supoosed to see it despite my personal preference:



That said, most of the anti-feats being brought up relate to travel speed and do not apply to reaction or combat speed. Flight speed being MFTL+ has clear plot relevance, such as Aggregor needing to traverse galaxies to collect the Map of Infinity. Characters throughout the series have also shown consistent reactions to these high-speed movements of such flight users.

As for the reaction-based anti-feats:

  • A character throws a car at Ben, and Ben fails to dodge it.
    • Attack speed is included in such actions, so this does not serve as a valid anti-feat on its own.
  • Ben’s aliens fail to dodge attacks from advanced alien technology.
    • These are high-end alien weapons, not standard ones, so this does not qualify as a reliable anti-feat either.
  • Jetray fails to dodge his own attacks or Vilgax’s attacks.
    • Vilgax’s speed is comparable to Jetray’s, and Jetray’s attack speed exceeds his own flight speed.
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Should be also add Fasttrack outspeeding a Nuclear fusion grenade? Also Fasttrack are supposed to be equal to Xlr8 in speed
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Reiner04

Do we have a blog or so compiling the speed scaling chains and associated scaling feats of the current speed ratings for each alien?
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Not really, i don't think we have a blog related to speed scaling chain, afair, the scaling chain was mostly same as before but the rating was simply updated based on how the ratings were affected, and short summary of scaling chain was made by @Ghengiroo115 here.
 
Reiner04 said:
Not really, i don't think we have a blog related to speed scaling chain, afair, the scaling chain was mostly same as before but the rating was simply updated based on how the ratings were affected, and short summary of scaling chain was made by @Ghengiroo115 here.
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I see.

Allow me to start logging it all down so I can get a better picture of it all.
 
Reiner04 said:
Not really, i don't think we have a blog related to speed scaling chain, afair, the scaling chain was mostly same as before but the rating was simply updated based on how the ratings were affected, and short summary of scaling chain was made by @Ghengiroo115 here.
Click to expand...
Please summarize a list of characters and why they scale in combat/reaction speed to particular MFTL speed feats.
 
Thanks to @Lort15 for helping out with most of the scans

Direct speed feats that are linked to reaction and combatt speed includes:
  1. Sugilite, a member of conductoid Crystalsapien species, crossed half of the galaxy.
  2. Feedback reacting to Tachyon cannon.
  3. Flew across the Universe in order to collect Map of Infinity pieces.
  4. Gravvatack reacted to FTL timebeasts travel speed.
  5. Waybig reacted to Conquest Ray.
  6. Conductoids are stated to travel their home nebula by propelling themselves off of “minute voltage differences”. Not only should this require a lot of skill and good reaction speed to consistently pull off, but the attack speed and flight speed of Feedback’s electricity should also scale to this.
  7. Rustbucket is MFTL+.
These are speed feats that has direct relations with characters speed and their reaction which i will show below.


Now coming to scaling chain:
So yeah, overall reaction and combatt speed in the verse has consistently been comparable to top tiers.
 
Firestorm808 said:
At this time, I disagree that MFTL Reactions/Perceptions are non-existent in the series. However, I'm currently vetting the speed scaling chains to see who reasonably scales their Reactions/Perceptions to certain feats.
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Well I'm arguing that scaling to these MFTL reactions/perceptions are inconsistent. I never said the MFTL reaction feats are nonexistent but the series constantly shows characters struggling with threats that are no where near even SoL while most of the MFTL scaling comes inconsistent travel speed feats. There are like 6 travel speed feats while barely any FTL combat/reaction calcs that are separate from travel speed. If these characters are so MFTL in reactions they shouldn’t be getting tagged by massively slower attacks but that happens over and over again in the series. That’s the inconsistency I’m pointing out. You can’t just scale to the highest feats and ignore every other speed feats that are actually consistent
 
Robo432343 said:
i like how you say these anti feats dont make sense and then proceed to bring up immeasurable speed which is not relevant here at all
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Its called an analogy. You can replace the words by "MFTL" or "FTL+", the point would still be the same. Something like Kratos not being stuck at Massively Hypersonic+ because he got tagged by electricity users is a prime example of what I was trying to say
 
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This downgrade seems reasonable to me as well, but Firestorm usually likely has the best common sense regarding Ben 10 scaling. 🙏
 
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