StarShooter80
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Yeah so what's your point the topic is on Ultimate Aggregor
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Ben 10 MFTL+ Anti Feats
- Thread starter Robo432343
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- ben 10 (classic) mftl+ speed
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You are not reading.
Thats base Aggregor who doesn't have direct scaling to Ultimate Aggregor's speed. He can never have seen both of them are same being but in different form.
For instance, if you look at four arms profile you will see he directly scales to UA Aggregor:
And that leads to base Aggregor downscaling from the characters who are comparable to UA Aggregor.
Aggregor flight speed scales to his combatt and reaction speed. Most of the things in the OP only talks about travel speed inconsistency but not reaction or combatt. Even jetray Anti-feat you brought up doesn't hold since his flight speed is above Vilgax who like flew half way across galaxy in some time (And jetray has several tons of instances proving his flight speed is comparable to his combatt and reaction speed too)
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- #43
No? It is on both base and ultimate Aggregor having MFTL+ combat speeds and Ben's aliens who are clearly not MFTL+ regularly scaling from both of those forms
StarShooter80
He/Him- 6,092
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I really don't get what you're trying to reason with here
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- Thread starter
- #45
Yeah and now Ben's aliens who are clearly not mftl in combat and reactions are scaling to that as well as all the other characters
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Based on which exact anti-feats? As i stated b4, most of the things you brought in the OP are travel speed. And the amount of Anti-feats brought regarding combatt or reaction speed are very insignificant compared to the amount of MFTL+ reaction speed feats amd consistency in the verse.
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Btw about this, Vilgax's robots were merged with Rojo, that means Rojo got amped by those robots statistics, as those robots are comparable to Fourarms and other Ben's aliens so this is just seem to be a P.I.S
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Does Robo even know what an anti-feat is?
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Then shouldn't those be calced?
Almost every single calc on the verse page is travel speed.
Can't really say it's insignificant or "only travel" when that's entirely what the ratings are currently based on.
Like if there's such consistency, shouldn't there be dozens of FTL combat/reaction feats without needing to hinge on travel speed?
And if so, why aren't they actually indexed and calculated?
Like my dude, one of your main arguments just a lil while ago was how combat/reactions for that one scales to his flight speed, but in that case you need to actually take into account various other travel speed feats too and how those factor into their combat as they're just as relevant in a vacuum, failure to do so is just cherry picking, like me and you both know there's been times when blatantly not FTL travel speed has been difficult to act against, or even blitzed people; if you want to talk about consistency and overwhelming quantity, actually quantify the feats in question because as it stands, Robo does have a bit of a point here, there's some damning contradictions to MFTL being some universal speed consistently yet no real calcs otherwise, this the type of argument you do when you have double the amount laying around, not 1, maybe 2.
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- Thread starter
- #52
I don't know what consistency you are talking about when there are literally more anti feats to this verse then there are proper mftl combat speeds
The anti feats in the OP are travel speed but you're literally doing the same thing for Aggregor + there are mftl reaction and combat antifeats that you're trying to brush over like its no big deal
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Well that was moreso just a post in passing but suddenly I feel a bit committed.
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- #54
Vilgax's robots (who are not MFTL+ at all btw) being merged with Rojo is not an excuse for XLR8, a character with MFTL+ combat and reactions being unable to dodge a simple laser
ah yes four arms one of bens slower aliens
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Appearently that's what gives her powers and stats so and i didn't mean to an excuse for XLR8, Vilgax Robots are mftl+ tho pretty clear from scans that them being comparable to Ben's aliens in speed also as i have said and also they are firing lasers as well what is the point?
I don't recal a statement about Fourarm's being Ben's one of slowest fighters, he is not slow in combats and reactions tho and XLR8 is stated to be the fastest alien Ben has so it should upscale him from that as well, and like XLR8 is capable of dodging attacks from characters like Vilgax who has MFTL+ combat and reactions i don't see why the laser anti-feat thing wouldn't be an outlier
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You need better examples.
You can't say "they're comparable so they're MFTL", when the very thing being contested is the fact they aren't MFTL, so them being problematic is an issue for the alleged scaling. Bit of a self-fulfilling argument there.
The point he's making is that the lasers are an issue?
As in, a SOL attack, is an issue, as in, something magnitudes below MFTL and the speed you're claiming the robots to be, is an issue, as in, a character who's apparently magnitudes faster is shown slower than the thing in question, as in, being tagged or pressed or even blitzed by a SOL is a pretty huge anti-feat.
Calling it "an outlier", is kind of the argument no? Goes both ways.
It could be a one-off low-end by itself sure, but they're starting to add up, and there ain't exactly a pile of reaction/combat calcs to justify just ignoring it.
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i see what you meant here, i think Robo knows what i mean here or at least aware from it, Four Arms is capable of reacting to Aggregor's flight speed and so does Ben's aliens like Big Chill, Swampfire etc. So that's why i'm telling that those robots being comparable to Four Arms makes them having MFTL+ speed. Wiki's standarts about laser stuff is strict about it, i'm not exactly sure if they are like actual lasers we had problems with those things in the past, and Robo is taking those anti-feats with kind of nitpicking as XLR8 meant to dodge laser thingy beams from different characters like him dodging those things are seem to be more consistent about it as he dodged a few of them and gets tagged by one (kinda rushed reply i have to go outside)
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Original series characters gets their speed scaling not from Original series feats but the feat of base ben being able to react and fight against UA Aggregor. Original series Characters comparable to Ben's Aliens are thus MFTL+ already.
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I am not understanding wdym i am doing samething. The issue is that we aren’t discussing travel speed here. The OP brings up travel speed inconsistencies, but that doesn’t address the fact that the trio was able to react to Aggregor’s attacks, which are faster than his flight speed. Jetray’s attacks, which are also faster than his flight speed, have been consistently dodged and reacted to throughout the series. Heatblast flight speed that is comparable to jetray flight speed has been dodged across the series too, and so on.
GeneralSol16
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Because the characters have reacted to his travel speed, which is MFTL+ so to Vilgax's, Jetray's, Chromastone's, etc.
All of your anti feats are just travel speed feats for no MFFL+ travel speed aliens, saying that a laser is only SoL even tho a rule is that it should be comparable to their other speed stats, and not knowing how to separate each Era of the show.
Half of your BS is from OS Era, and you're trying to apply it to UAF.
This is the second time you try dpikf this idiotic idea man, and this is even more ridiculous.
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Btw, even Upgrade was able to dodge Rojo's lasers, so XLR8 not being able to react to it simply doesn't makes sense anyways.
GeneralSol16
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Can you please revaluate it? We've already debunked practically all of the OP.
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- Thread starter
- #65
Ah yes Jetray
MFTL+ Jetray is so consistent dude
'MFTL+' Jetray almost outsped by an explosion
'MFTL+' Jetray not able to react to gunfire and surrenders to gunfire
'MFTL+' Jetray relative to laser blasts (1:50)
'MFTL+' Jetray couldn't react and dodge his own laser blasts
Jetray can't dodge a car
Jetray couldn't dodge a meteor
Jetray fails to escape an explosion
Goes full speed to save a man only grabbing him at the last minute
Jetray is barely able to move relative to electricity blasts and a propane gas explosion is the same speed as Jetray's flight speed mid combat
'MFTL+' Jetray having stated to be several times the speed of sound which is the most consistent
The eye of the beholder script stated that Jetray even approaching near the speed of light was an excruciating feat so there is no way Jetray is casually MFTL+ or FTL
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I will reply to these anti-feats later but its really really funny how two scans you brought up and One states that Jetray moves at the speed of sound, while another shows him reaching the speed of light, which is a difference of nearly a million in magnitude times, like if dude can really go sol then most of the anti-feat you brought doesn't even hold. He can't outrun explosions, he can't catch a guy falling, this and that, but the dude can reach speed of light and higher. Com'on man. Additionally, the script doesn’t say he only reached the speed of light. It indicates that he continued accelerating beyond that point before entering the hyperspace vortex.Ah yes Jetray
MFTL+ Jetray is so consistent dude
'MFTL+' Jetray almost outsped by an explosion
'MFTL+' Jetray not able to react to gunfire and surrenders to gunfire
'MFTL+' Jetray relative to laser blasts (1:50)
'MFTL+' Jetray couldn't react and dodge his own laser blasts
Jetray can't dodge a car
Jetray couldn't dodge an asteroid
Jetray fails to escape an explosion
Goes full speed to save a man only grabbing him at the last minute
'MFTL+' Jetray having stated to be several times the speed of sound which is the most consistent
The eye of the beholder script stated that Jetray even approaching near the speed of light was an excruciating feat so there is no way Jetray is casually MFTL+ or FTL
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- Thread starter
- #67
Now that we know Jetray's flight speed is NOT MFTL+ i'll show you this
MFTL+ Ampfibian fails to react to Jetray's flight speed
MFTL+ Ultimate Kevin fails to react to Jetray's flight speed
MFTL+ Humongosaur fails to react to Jetray's flight speed
there is a lot more
MFTL+ Ampfibian fails to react to Jetray's flight speed
MFTL+ Ultimate Kevin fails to react to Jetray's flight speed
MFTL+ Humongosaur fails to react to Jetray's flight speed
there is a lot more
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Context dude. The rel statement is extreme diff almost killing himself level.
Mach speed is framed as standard.
There's a very, very, obvious caveat to both you straight up ignored.
If you're going to argue them actually do so properly.
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I don't see him killing himself in the said feat if u have watched the eps. Far from killing himself, he was entirely fine infact.
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Infact when ben reached the other planet half way across the galaxy, we don't even see his ass showing any type of strain or pain, he was entirely fine as if nothing happened. From start of feat to end of feat, the scripts "excruciating" part was nowhere to be seen.
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Yeah case in point. Instead of arguing the actual major caveat you targeted the blatant hyperbole for "this wasn't normal and sucked ass".
MY dude we don't even see the whole feat?
Alas, your very own example has literal normal people reacting to his takeoff, having a whole convo by the time he gets into the upper stratosphere (so actually mach on screen), so issue there right off the bat, and the video itself is literally titled "uses hyperspace".
Which while I WOULD refrain from WoG, "nothing can go FTL without hyperspace", is, in fact, a statement, and then the MFTL feat by the stated mach speed character is using hyperspace? Shit idk man seems like it is a pretty enormous red flag.
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Reiner chan I found the Jetray calculation for you meow
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Some of these "Anti-Feats" don't even make sense. Like the lightning ones, are we acting like a Immeasurable Speed character with electricity powers can't tag another Immeasurable Speed without his Attack Speed being way higher than Massively Hypersonic+ ?
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I was so confused and even thought he sounds too robotic here so it’s a joke before Gwen clarified it, wth
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I FOUND IT
JETRAY's leaked space video
0:19
to 4:43
JETRAY's leaked space video
0:19
to 4:43
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- #76
don't worry the statement is backed up by MFTL+ grandpa max so he knows what he's talking about
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Most of this boils down to the assumption that since Jetray is MFTL+, he should perceive everything as static, which is not how fiction typically portrays every events, despite that we have clips where everything was percieved as frozen by different chzracters. The depiction of speed is often an artistic choice, it changes time to time, plot to plot, animation to animation, it cannot stay consistent. Lots of MFTL guy has been tagged by explosions, has been shown to not percieve explosions as something static or simpky walk out of it as if its nothing, its artistic and end result is what matters mostly. Jetray clearly dodges the lasers and outruns the explosion, while the “not reacting to gunfire” moment is simply him prioritizing saving the falling person by taking the hit. He later goes on to destroy those jets, which wouldn’t make sense if his only goal was just to save the person. So overall, these scenes are better explained as artistic choices rather than strict representations of speed, especially since speed is not the focus of the plot. On top of that, he already has an onscreen sol feat supported by statement that u brought up later which already hits these stuff down.
That’s his own laser, after all.
The car was thrown by a ship, so that would scale to the ship’s attack speed.
He was visibly watching the asteroid approach and didn’t even attempt to dodge it. That comes off as PIS, since with his established speed, he could have avoided it even without considering MFTL+.
That explosion was made up of chronal energy (time rays), not a regular explosion.
This is contradicted by his on screen feat of reaching light speed to access the hyperspace jump.'MFTL+' Jetray having stated to be several times the speed of sound which is the most consistent
The “excruciating” part isn’t reflected in the episode itself. Jetray has been shown struggling far more in other scenes than he does there. Seems like the excruciating stuff is nothing more than minor strain.
Even entire crowds, like a baseball stadium full of people and robots, couldn’t react to XLR8 moving around and even just standing and adjusting the ball positions. Jetray is the fastest aliens in omnitrix. Scenes where characters appear to watch high speed fights or characters move are common in fiction when speed is not the sole focus of the event or plot and are largely stylistic choices rather than strict depictions of speed. Speed is often not consistently treated as a core focus in fiction, and that needs to be considered when evaluating feats. If we applied strict realism to every scene, a lot of characters across many franchises would end up being downgraded. The “Mach speed” claim comes from external material, while the show itself contradicts it through feats like his hyperspace travel, which is supported both visually and by statements. Vilgax and chromastone crossed several light years w/o any hyperspace on screen. Then we have Aggregor who has crossed galaxy visibly through regular flight. Jetray seems to be using Hyperspace only to catch up with Kevin's space ship on time.
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Yeah, character's combatt speed and their attack speed are often related. Like MFTL+ character having light based or electricity attacks doesn't mean his attack speed is slower (way slower actually) than himself, they are mostly comparable to the character, from what i know.
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i like how you say these anti feats dont make sense and then proceed to bring up immeasurable speed which is not relevant here at all
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Do you have the aftermath of the feat?
You could probably argue Jetray saying that he has to jump through hyperspace "in theory", is what that statement is referring to when it says it's "excruciating [for him]", so maybe physically he's generally fine (stamina/endurance etc), but considering it's a feat that he wasn't even sure he could do until he actually did it, it probably did have a toll on him, even if minor.
At least Subsonic/Subsonic+ flight speed, and up to Relativistic+ with top speed (or however you want to index it), is okay with me to be honest, unless there's other statements/feats I'm not privy to.MFTL+' Jetray having stated to be several times the speed of sound which is the most consistent
The eye of the beholder script stated that Jetray even approaching near the speed of light was an excruciating feat so there is no way Jetray is casually MFTL+ or FTL
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