Revision 1-C Zen'O

[Le_démon_Araii]

Hello everyone, today I'm going to talk about a topic that I think many of you won't like.

I'm going to explain why Zen'O isn't eligible for 1-C.

Zen'O's feat was accomplished by destroying Trunks's timeline, which is marked as "erased from reality" by the official website, given that Trunks' timeline is a 1-C hypertimeline.

Since it is stated that the entire timeline, the entire universe, has been destroyed, then normally the three spatial dimensions and the temporal dimension of Future Trunks' Universe 7 should have been completely destroyed.
This means that there are no longer any axes of movement and time no longer exists. Time itself should no longer exist in the true sense of the word.

Given that the temporal dimension can be considered an infinite line encompassing an infinite number of points, and each point represents a static moment in the universe, also called a snapshot, the set of all these points forms the totality of spacetime.
Therefore, destroying the dimension directly implies destroying the line and the infinite number of snapshots.

Now, the question is... did Zen'O destroy all of space-time?

The answer is no. The time ring representing Trunks' timeline was destroyed, demonstrating that the timeline no longer exists in the true sense of the word. Therefore, the fact that Goku can return to it, that he can move forward in this universe supposedly "erased from reality," proves that it wasn't entirely erased. Without proof to the contrary, Goku isn't spacefaring, and he could also breathe even though there was no oxygen.

Furthermore, Whis explains that he can bring Trunks and Mai back to "their" world before its "destruction," implying that the time dimension wasn't completely erased and that snapshots of the past remain, since Whis can bring them back to a time before their world's destruction.

This is further reinforced by Bulma's statement that if they return to "their" world before its "destruction by King Zen'O," they will have to face Zamasu again.
Therefore, "their" world is indeed the timeline that is supposed to have been completely destroyed.

In the FAQ, there's the question, "When is the destruction or creation of a universe or timeline ranked as Low 2-C (Universe level+)?"

The answer was that it required the creation/destruction of all three-dimensional space at every instant in time. The entire timeline had to be destroyed, and the act of creation/destruction had to be direct.

An example was given: destroying the universe at the beginning of time, causing everything else to disappear due to the paradox of causality. The present cannot exist without the past, and without the present, there is no future. This destruction, however, doesn't meet the requirements and can only be classified as 3-A.

In Zen'O's case, it's proven that the past still exists, as demonstrated by Whis and Bulma's statements, implying that not all three-dimensional space was destroyed at every instant in time. At best, he destroyed the present and the future (the present because, from Future Trunks's perspective, it's "his present"), but the past remained unaffected. This also debunks Zamasu's 1-C, which is supposed to be one with the entire universe, including the time dimension.

Conclusion: Zen'O does not meet the requirements for timeline destruction and should therefore be downgraded to 3-A, or High 3-A maximum.

 

[Mbpoops]

Following

 

[K'rimuru]

Agree

 

[MotherStar]

For me, the debunking is acceptable. The arguments are valid.

I've always found the arguments of Zeno's scales, and Dragon Ball in general, strange.
I hope this CRT will be accepted.

 

[OzFr]

following

 

[Mbpoops]

Personally i dont agree with 3-A at most if you wanted to downgrade it would
Be to 2-C for outscaling beerus and subsequently goku. Ill see how this thread plays out though zeno scaling has been weird you could sum it up to his EE having 1C range but 2-C ap imo

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

I am a dragon ball and I did not read the thread, so I disagree

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

Personally i dont agree with 3-A at most if you wanted to downgrade it would
Be to 2-C for outscaling beerus and subsequently goku. Ill see how this thread plays out though zeno scaling has been weird you could sum it up to his EE having 1C range but 2-C ap imo

The FAQ section I mentioned clearly states that if it doesn't meet the prerequisite, it should be marked 3-A; however, if a fourth spatial dimension has been destroyed, 2-C is possible.

 

[Mbpoops]

The FAQ section I mentioned clearly states that if it doesn't meet the prerequisite, it should be marked 3-A; however, if a fourth spatial dimension has been destroyed, 2-C is possible.

Yes but thats if zeno didnt already outscale characters in the verse who are 2-C already and since hes stronger than them he would naturally fall to 2-C

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

Yes but thats if zeno didnt already outscale characters in the verse who are 2-C already and since hes stronger than them he would naturally fall to 2-C

Except that this would actually contradict the scaling, because the feature isn't enough; the 2C (second character) is supposed to be enough, but he should be 2C because he's stronger than Beerus, who is 2C. I find that quite strange and far-fetched.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I do not have enough time or energy to go over all the things that were already discussed centillions of times, but I strongly disagree with downgrading Zeno to Tier 3 let alone. We already discussed to death about Universe 7 alone meeting the criteria for a 2-C sized Macrocosm minimum, and by extension the GoDs are also 2-C and those who upscale/downscale from them. And the rest comes from people failing to realize the common fallacies regarding how timelines within timelines actually work. Also, most of the arguments presented are only counterarguments against 1-A gaps, and NOT even arguments against Low 1-C to 1-B range of cosmology structures. And it sounds like the OP is overblowing what the FAQ says out of proportion while overlooking more important details.

I am waiting on others to explain the details discussed on a previous thread where 1-C Zeno was accepted, but it also has been discussed to death why Macrocosms and "Timelines" were Low 1-C sized given how the individual "12 to 18 Universes" are 2-C individually.

 

[Mbpoops]

Except that this would actually contradict the scaling, because the feature isn't enough; the 2C (second character) is supposed to be enough, but he should be 2C because he's stronger than Beerus, who is 2C. I find that quite strange and far-fetched.

Unless this thread aims to remove all the 2-C scaling and make everyone including the gods, angels, grand priest, and zeno 3-A then zeno should fall to 2-C for outscaling the gods and other characters who are 2-C. It would really mess up a lot of narrative implications if the gods outscales zeno (the guy they cant contend with)

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

I do not have enough time or energy to go over all the things that were already discussed centillions of times, but I strongly disagree with downgrading Zeno to Tier 3 let alone. We already discussed to death about Universe 7 alone meeting the criteria for a 2-C sized Macrocosm minimum, and by extension the GoDs are also 2-C and those who upscale/downscale from them. And the rest comes from people failing to realize the common fallacies regarding how timelines within timelines actually work. Also, most of the arguments presented are only counterarguments against 1-A gaps, and NOT even arguments against Low 1-C to 1-B range of cosmology structures. And it sounds like the OP is overblowing what the FAQ says out of proportion while overlooking more important details.

I am waiting on others to explain the details discussed on a previous thread where 1-C Zeno was accepted, but it also has been discussed to death why Macrocosms and "Timelines" were Low 1-C sized given how the individual "12 to 18 Universes" are 2-C individually.

For 2-C, I agree that there needs to be some logic to the story, but you're giving 1-C through timeline destruction when it doesn't even respect the prerequisites you yourself have (vsbw). You're talking about destroying all of space at every moment in time, therefore the entire timeline, which directly implies the temporal dimension and all its snapshots.

Furthermore, why talk about 1-A when I'm not talking about anything related to thirds at all, no mention of qualitative transcendence, no mention of any transcendence r>f, etc...

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Except that this would actually contradict the scaling, because the feature isn't enough; the 2C (second character) is supposed to be enough, but he should be 2C because he's stronger than Beerus, who is 2C. I find that quite strange and far-fetched.

I think he's saying that while it's possible for the feat itself to be 3A/High 3-A, zeno himself should be downgraded to just 2C under the premise that he outscales the other characters with 2C scaling (goku, beerus, etc)

 

[Ultimuru]

Agree

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

I think he's saying that while it's possible for the feat itself to be 3A/High 3-A, zeno himself should be downgraded to just 2C under the premise that he outscales the other characters with 2C scaling (goku, beerus, etc)

Yes, I can completely understand that, there's no problem at all.

 

[Thunderman101]

sata andagree

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Furthermore, why talk about 1-A when I'm not talking about anything related to thirds at all, no mention of qualitative transcendence, no mention of any transcendence r>f, etc...

I was addressing a common misconception on what "Qualitive superiority" means on the FAQ. Low 1-C to High 1-B are based on Quantative superiority, not qualitative. And regular sized humans or 3-D sized characters being able to walk in a 5-D or above realm is not an anti-feat regarding the existence of Low 1-C to High 1-B structures. But it is a counter argument against 1-A and above (Which Qualitive Superiority means R>F layers as opposed to extra spatio-temporal dimensions). That's the common fallacy a lot of users, especially newer ones get mixed up a lot.

As for the time being, I will ping @Qawsedf234 @Reiner04 and @Vietthai96 who were major contributors to the previous thread that got them upgraded to 1-C.

 

[Hecky2222]

Even if arguments are valid, downgrading below 3-C is harsh whereas you have Zeno being feared by any Gods who can destroy universes.

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

I was addressing a common misconception on what "Qualitive superiority" means on the FAQ. Low 1-C to High 1-B are based on Quantative superiority, not qualitative. And regular sized humans or 3-D sized characters being able to walk in a 5-D or above realm is not an anti-feat regarding the existence of Low 1-C to High 1-B structures. But it is a counter argument against 1-A and above (Which Qualitive Superiority means R>F layers as opposed to extra spatio-temporal dimensions). That's the common fallacy a lot of users, especially newer ones get mixed up a lot.

But I don't see the connection with the current CRT at all. It's not about 1-A or anything like that. I know how to differentiate between qualitative and quantitative transcendence, but yes, moving in 5D space while being 3D isn't a counter-feat. I was talking about a 3D being that has never been declared aspatial, or transcendental, or anything like that, capable of moving in a structure devoid of space, while also saying that this being needs oxygen to breathe and survive but is perfectly fine in a structure devoid of space, oxygen, etc... that's strange.

 

[MotherStar]

Yes but thats if zeno didnt already outscale characters in the verse who are 2-C already and since hes stronger than them he would naturally fall to 2-C

Actually, it's not a problem because Goku and Beerus are L2-C/2-C (a bit shaky for me, but that's beside the point) with a physical feat, whereas Zeno's is with a hax. Hax is higher than AP/DC, so Zeno scaling lower doesn't change anything because he's still stronger and can still affect them. Therefore, Zeno scaling to level 3 doesn't change his superiority over Goku and Beerus.
And then at level 3-A / H3-A the range and the ap of the hax are 3D which is the existence of beerus, goku and all the beings of the verse so once again the scale does not change the superiority.

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

Even if arguments are valid, downgrading below 3-C is harsh whereas you have Zeno being feared by any Gods who can destroy universes.

Yes, that's why I agreed with 2-C; I did go a bit overboard with 3-A, it's true.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Tbh, I think we need to make something clear, the downgrade seems to focus on the "Feat" not scaling, but naturally, he will still upscale from basically the entire verse.
(So yeah, remove the tier from the feat, and we're good - If I understand the debunk.)

snip

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

Tbh, I think we need to make something clear, the downgrade seems to focus on the "Feat" not scaling, but naturally, he will still upscale from basically the entire verse.
(So yeah, remove the tier from the feat, and we're good - If I understand the debunk.)

Basically, I'm trying to show that Zen'O's 1-C is not valid and should be downgraded to 2-C, but the structure itself is not downgraded.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I was addressing a common misconception on what "Qualitive superiority" means on the FAQ. Low 1-C to High 1-B are based on Quantative superiority, not qualitative.

I’m not interested in DB, but this is clearly not how higher dimensions work. Unless the wiki is using a definition of “qualitative” that is different from the actual one, dimensional differences are both quantitative and qualitative in nature. Of course, that is unless you believe you can magically add an axis of movement to a system simply by quantitatively expanding its preexisting magnitudes, which would be absurd.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Basically, I'm trying to show that Zen'O's 1-C is not valid and should be downgraded to 2-C, but the structure itself is not downgraded.

The thing is, he is considered the strongest in the verse (with the exception of Super Shenron ect), so he would upscale the Destroyer gods and Angels...

 

[Mbpoops]

Actually, it's not a problem because Goku and Beerus are L2-C/2-C (a bit shaky for me, but that's beside the point) with a physical feat, whereas Zeno's is with a hax. Hax is higher than AP/DC, so Zeno scaling lower doesn't change anything because he's still stronger and can still affect them. Therefore, Zeno scaling to level 3 doesn't change his superiority over Goku and Beerus.

sure the goku and beerus scaling could be shaky but thats where they are scaled to and its narratively implied zeno is stronger than beerus. then theres the good ol "UES" argument you can use to just get zeno back to low 1-C at the very least but if the downgrade were to pass it would just be "2-C likely far higher" if you wanted it lower then you can make a thread on that

 

[Robo432343]

I already asked the db supporters about this and they explained it to me

It looks like this scan implies Zeno did not actually erase time since Whis said its possible to go back in time but:

No, Time Machine in DB doesn't work like that.
They travelled to a different point of time in a separate timeline that is not connected to the main timeline.
Bulma emphasizes the difference between dimensional and time travel, as time machine itself is not connected to the literal future of the main timeline but a parallel timeline

 

[MotherStar]

sure the goku and beerus scaling could be shaky but thats where they are scaled to and its narratively implied zeno is stronger than beerus. then theres the good ol "UES" argument you can use to just get zeno back to low 1-C at the very least but if the downgrade were to pass it would just be "2-C likely far higher" if you wanted it lower then you can make a thread on that

Whether Zeno is downgraded to level 2 or 3 is fine by me. I was just saying that since Zeno's feats are via Hax, regardless of whether his scale is lower than others, he can still be superior via Hax and universal range.

 

[Mbpoops]

I already asked the db supporters about this and they explained it to me

It looks like this scan implies Zeno did not actually erase time since Whis said its possible to go back in time but:

so basically they went back to a different snapshot of the timeline since hypertimelines record snapshots off lesser timelines n all?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I’m not interested in DB, but this is clearly not how higher dimensions work. Unless the wiki is using a definition of “qualitative” that is different from the actual one, dimensional differences are both quantitative and qualitative in nature. Of course, that is unless you believe you can magically add an axis of movement to a system simply by quantitatively expanding its preexisting magnitudes, which would be absurd.

I was paraphrasing more or less what Ultima Reality said when he revised the 1-A and above and revitalized the R>F policies. But still, FAQ was still being misinterpreted as the OP was still trying to argue the exact opposite of what was actually agreed in a previous staff discussion thread. And more over, what was spoken was neither a counter argument against Neutral Space being Low 1-C nor was the rest of the Macro Timelines being 1-C (6-D), or the scaling of Heroes cast being an infinite number of those 1-C (6-D) sized Macrocosms.

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

I already asked the db supporters about this and they explained it to me

It looks like this scan implies Zeno did not actually erase time since Whis said its possible to go back in time but:

So if Zen'O didn't erase time, this confirms that he didn't erase the entire timeline either, since it is at least composed of Macrocosm 7, therefore a 2-C structure containing the temporal dimensions of the world of the living and the afterlife.

But when they talk about "creating a new parallel world," it's because by changing the past, they will create precisely this parallel world; Trunks and Mai will change the past of their timeline to create a new future.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

The answer is no. The time ring representing Trunks' timeline was destroyed, demonstrating that the timeline no longer exists in the true sense of the word. Therefore, the fact that Goku can return to it, that he can move forward in this universe supposedly "erased from reality," proves that it wasn't entirely erased.

The scan doesn't say "forward..." regardless, are you suggesting that any movement in a spaceless void is an anti-feat because it proves that directions still exist? Movement is just a relative measure of a change in position. Without spatial dimensions, you just lack an objective framework to define a specific value for movement.

Without proof to the contrary, Goku isn't spacefaring, and he could also breathe even though there was no oxygen.

You are right, if only there was evidence that Goku had limited spacefaring capabilities.

Furthermore, Whis explains that he can bring Trunks and Mai back to "their" world before its "destruction," implying that the time dimension wasn't completely erased and that snapshots of the past remain, since Whis can bring them back to a time before their world's destruction.

This interpretation contradicts an official diagram which explained that they went to a different timeline altogether where Zamasu was defeated prematurely. Furthermore, Whis can't alter the past beyond an extremely limited degree lest he risks ruining the whole time axis.

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

This interpretation contradicts an official diagram which explained that they went to a different timeline altogether where Zamasu was defeated prematurely. Furthermore, Whis can't alter the past beyond an extremely limited degree lest he risks ruining the whole time axis.

Except the problem is that between this kind of explanation and what is stated in the manga, it contradicts itself because why say "their world before its destruction by King Zen'O" if in the end they go into a different chronology than this one?

 

[Shubham_Sonsurkar]

How many times have we done this already...

 

[RoninSlayer200]

Except the problem is that between this kind of explanation and what is stated in the manga, it contradicts itself because why say "their world before its destruction by King Zen'O" if in the end they go into a different chronology than this one?

They are not going to the same future timeline before its destruction, but rather an alternate timeline where Zeno didn't come and nuke it.

 

[Reiner04]

I already asked the db supporters about this and they explained it to me

It looks like this scan implies Zeno did not actually erase time since Whis said its possible to go back in time but:

Yeah i do remember time machine not being literal time machine but just a dimensional travel machine that connects this dimension to the other alternate dimension. It doesn't have to be depending on time. And neverthless, we have enough showing (time ring being destroyed), that clearly portrays that entire timeline was indeed destroyed. Just because a PIS exist doesn't mean it didn't happened.

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

They are not going to the same future timeline before its destruction, but rather an alternate timeline where Zeno didn't come and nuke it.

However, the manga and anime clearly state that this was their world before it was destroyed by Zen'O, so the external information used as supporting evidence contradicts this.

 

[Vietthai96]

This logic is just bad, most fiction has characters capable of moving within void that lacks space-time, now suddenly it is anti-feat against void now??

However, the manga and anime clearly state that this was their world before it was destroyed by Zen'O, so the external information used as supporting evidence contradicts this.

Scan literally talking about parallel timeline, you are nitpicking words

Anyway, agree with Profectus point and disagree with the thread

 

[Le_démon_Araii]

Yeah i do remember time machine not being literal time machine but just a dimensional travel machine that connects this dimension to the other alternate dimension. It doesn't have to be depending on time. And neverthless, we have enough showing (time ring being destroyed), that clearly portrays that entire timeline was indeed destroyed. Just because a PIS exist doesn't mean it didn't happened.

The fact that the ring was destroyed means that the timeline no longer exists, since the ring is used to travel to this parallel world and is directly linked to it. Its destruction should imply that the timeline no longer exists at all, yet Goku has access to it with the time machine, and the statements of Whis and Bulma prove that the entire timeline is not destroyed because their statement, "their world before its destruction," clearly demonstrates the timeline that should have been destroyed with the ring.