BAN-KAI! Bleach General Discussion

[Apollonir.Scale]

There is evidence. A nice piece of evidence is that Aizen himself indicates the Espada follow him, not because of his charisma or intelligence; I would agree both are contributing factors but aren't significant ones. It is because of his superior strength. That is confirmed and then furthered by Gin, in his inner monologue, talking with nobody else except himself--so there is no reason to believe he is trying to convince anyone with his statement--that Aizen is without parallels, and his strength is the main contributing reason to why the Espada follow him.

Ulquiorra doesn't follow the will of Aizen because of his ability to comprehend and act accordingly to new or future information; he wasn't convinced, rhetorically, into the position. It was because Aizen is so strong that even Ulquiorra believes himself weaker, which is why he follows him. Ulquiorra respects strength and that which is perceivable. His entire character is centered around discovering invisible qualities like emotions are real and do have influence over others like power does; he doesn't initially believe these things are important. It makes less sense with his character if you assume he is stronger than Aizen, as he wouldn't respect or follow him if he was weaker. It does make sense if Aizen is stronger though.

This would fit squarely with other information, which supports Aizen being significantly stronger than anyone in the Espada, including Ulquiorra in all facets. We've been over this so many different times, in different threads, proposing different arguments. In all cases, it has been demonstrably proven Aizen is superior to all Espada without exception.

I haven't seen such a good argument in a long time.

I don't think the idea of the Espada following him for his power applies to everyone. For example, Baraggan was forced into the Espada.

Also, Kubo said something like, "Aizen rescued him from the darkness and emptiness he had fallen into, giving him a purpose," in response to the question of why Ulquiorra served Aizen. I don't have a scan of that, but I remember something like that. Unless I'm experiencing the Mandela effect.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I don't think the idea of the Espada following him for his power applies to everyone. For example, Baraggan was forced into the Espada.

Because he couldn't beat Aizen, once again proving the statement that he follows because he's strong.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Wouldn't Ulq=Vasto Lorde=Dangai mean Ulq and Vasto Lorde>2nd/3rd/4th Fusion Aizen and Full Power Squad Zero, as well as make them relative to Final Fusion Aizen?

Aizen's stupid, why did he get the Hogyoku when he could just asked Ulquiorra to obliterate Squad Zero once he created the Oken using Ulquiorra's SP instead of using his own?

 

[AKUTO123]

If vl has whole potential of his hollow power yes its comparable to dangai or true shikai but I dont think vl is whole potential of ichigo hollow power its just stronger type of others ichigo hollow form. Ichigo had turn nearly hollow at mask training so thats hollow also comparable to dangai or vl?

 

[TheDeadman21]

Wouldn't Ulq=Vasto Lorde=Dangai mean Ulq and Vasto Lorde>2nd/3rd/4th Fusion Aizen and Full Power Squad Zero, as well as make them relative to Final Fusion Aizen?

Aizen's stupid, why did he get the Hogyoku when he could just asked Ulquiorra to obliterate Squad Zero once he created the Oken using Ulquiorra's SP instead of using his own?

If Aizen didn't know about Segunda he wouldn't ask Ulquiorra to do it cause Resurrection Ulq is below the top 3 Espada and nowhere near base Aizen.
Either way I don't think Segunda Ulquiorra is close to even base Aizen. Segunda Ulq needs overwhelming proof for being anywhere near 2nd/3rd/4th Fusion Aizen.

 

[Infinite9Luck]

I'm actually surprised you guys are even debating this, isn't this common sense? Additionally Uryu compared full Hollow Ichigo reiatsu to Zaraki and Cien as well...So he is definitely nowhere near shinigami Aizen, let alone Dangai Ichigo.

 

[AppleLord]

Bleach Ichibei Hyosube Minor Additions

Ichibei needs Cour 3 Minor Additions: Keys: Base With Left Hand of the Soul King Powers & Resistance Added: Memory/vision inducement (can show past events to others) - showed Yhwach the primordial sea events when the worlds were created. Limited Power nullification (can interfere/sealed...

vsbattles.com

 

[PizzaDante67]

I'm actually surprised you guys are even debating this, isn't this common sense? Additionally Uryu compared full Hollow Ichigo reiatsu to Zaraki and Cien as well...So he is definitely nowhere near shinigami Aizen, let alone Dangai Ichigo.

I‘m just waiting for some mental gymnastic arguments to „disprove“ what you just said.

 

[ItsMeat]

Bleach Ichibei Hyosube Minor Additions

Ichibei needs Cour 3 Minor Additions: Keys: Base With Left Hand of the Soul King Powers & Resistance Added: Memory/vision inducement (can show past events to others) - showed Yhwach the primordial sea events when the worlds were created. Limited Power nullification (can interfere/sealed...

vsbattles.com

Ask some thread mod to move this into a crt

 

[SilentBob34]

Even for people who wank Bleach to the highest degree, no one would think Ulquiorra is anywhere near Aizen in power. Sheesh it’s like some people think they know more than Kubo on his own series smh

 

[KaramcaS]

what is Aizen's latest speed? I know that profiles didnt updated because of waiting for end of the anime

 

[Crobatman44]

Even for people who wank Bleach to the highest degree, no one would think Ulquiorra is anywhere near Aizen in power. Sheesh it’s like some people think they know more than Kubo on his own series smh

Surely they just got the date wrong and it was an april fool's joke released a few days earlier than it should,right?
Right?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Wouldn't Ulq=Vasto Lorde=Dangai mean Ulq and Vasto Lorde>2nd/3rd/4th Fusion Aizen and Full Power Squad Zero, as well as make them relative to Final Fusion Aizen?

Aizen's stupid, why did he get the Hogyoku when he could just asked Ulquiorra to obliterate Squad Zero once he created the Oken using Ulquiorra's SP instead of using his own?

In my previous messages, I already stated that Aizen doesn't know Segunda Etapa and provided evidence to support this.

Because he couldn't beat Aizen, once again proving the statement that he follows because he's strong.

If you're suggesting that Ulquiorra might have joined because he fought and lost against him, as in the case of Baraggan, that would be pure speculation unless there's an official statement. For example, he could have taken him to his side without defeating him in battle, as was the case with Halibel and Starrk.

Also, we don't know when Ulquiorra obtained the Segunda Etapa.

If vl has whole potential of his hollow power yes its comparable to dangai or true shikai but I dont think vl is whole potential of ichigo hollow power its just stronger type of others ichigo hollow form. Ichigo had turn nearly hollow at mask training so thats hollow also comparable to dangai or vl?

It's stated that White, the source of Ichigo's Hollow and Shinigami powers, is constantly growing stronger.

Also, his transformation against Lisa wasn't a complete transformation. That is, not a complete transformation considering his Vasto Lord form.

Since he has access to Arrancar abilities like Sonido, Cero, Partial Resurrection, and Regeneration while in his Vasto Lord form, this could be the peak of his Hollow form.

Furthermore, when Dangai form is created, OMZ and Vasto Lord White merge.

There is also evidence that the amount of power White provides is greater than the amount of Quincy power OMZ provides.

I'm actually surprised you guys are even debating this, isn't this common sense? Additionally Uryu compared full Hollow Ichigo reiatsu to Zaraki and Cien as well...So he is definitely nowhere near shinigami Aizen, let alone Dangai Ichigo.

I was going to explain this if I opened CRT, but I'll mention it here too:

1) Manga > Novel
2) Feat > Statement
3) Uryu is not a reliable narrator

I don't think it's right to use novels to debunk manga scales. If we're going to use statements from SAFWY, I'd also mention Orihime's ability to remove the damage on Halibel in Nestle to Night. It's described how Aizen hit Halibel with two sword blows, and since Orihime was the only one who could heal her, the Tres Bestias took her to her. While Orihime's hax was strong enough to deflect two Pre-Hogyoku Aizen sword blows, it was insufficient to heal Ichigo, who had a hole in his chest from Ulquiorra's Cero Oscuars.

So, the feat in Nestle to Night is Ulquiorra Cero Oscuars>>>>Orihime's causality hax~~Pre-Hogyoku Aizen level Ap>Unohana>SAFWY Zaraki

Also, if we used everything from the novels directly, we would have to demote Tokinada and the characters below him to even city level. But the feats in the manga show that Tokinada can be a tier 7 or higher character, and we accept feat > statement in this wiki.

 

[PizzaDante67]

In my previous messages, I already stated that Aizen doesn't know Segunda Etapa and provided evidence to support this.

Your "evidence" doesnt really prove much. Its also super inconsistent for Aizen, who knows like the most secret of secrets of the soul society, to not know that Ulquiorra had his Segunda Etapa.

There is also evidence that the amount of power White provides is greater than the amount of Quincy power OMZ provides.

Like?

I was going to explain this if I opened CRT, but I'll mention it here too:

1) Manga > Novel
2) Feat > Statement
3) Uryu is not a reliable narrator

I don't think it's right to use novels to debunk manga scales. If we're going to use statements from SAFWY, I'd also mention Orihime's ability to remove the damage on Halibel in Nestle to Night. It's described how Aizen hit Halibel with two sword blows, and since Orihime was the only one who could heal her, the Tres Bestias took her to her. While Orihime's hax was strong enough to deflect two Pre-Hogyoku Aizen sword blows, it was insufficient to heal Ichigo, who had a hole in his chest from Ulquiorra's Cero Oscuars.

So, the feat in Nestle to Night is Ulquiorra Cero Oscuars>>>>Orihime's causality hax~~Pre-Hogyoku Aizen level Ap>Unohana>SAFWY Zaraki

Also, if we used everything from the novels directly, we would have to demote Tokinada and the characters below him to even city level. But the feats in the manga show that Tokinada can be a tier 7 or higher character, and we accept feat > statement in this wiki.

How so?

Just open a crt and see how it goes. It makes no sense for Ulquiorra to be even near the level you claim him to be.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

If Aizen didn't know about Segunda he wouldn't ask Ulquiorra to do it cause Resurrection Ulq is below the top 3 Espada and nowhere near base Aizen.

Conversely, in SAFWY, even though Cien doesn't mention Ulquiorra when listing the three strongest Arrancar abilities, he later remembers their existence and feels the need to destroy Las Noches. This is solely to prevent Rooka from copying Ulquiorra's and Ichigo's powers. However, Cien doesn't destroy the remnants of Yammy's, Starrk's, and Baraggan's powers.

Finally, when Rooka copies Mugetsu to use it against Cien, Cien is surprised, asking, "How did you copy something stronger than Ulquiorra and Ichigo?" If the strongest individuals who could be copied were Yammy, Baraggan, and Starrk, he would have used their names to express his surprise.

Either way I don't think Segunda Ulquiorra is close to even base Aizen. Segunda Ulq needs overwhelming proof for being anywhere near 2nd/3rd/4th Fusion Aizen.

It already exists.

We don't even need to use Dangai scaling.

We can directly use the scene where the weakened Ichigo, after the Vasto Lord fight, deals damage to Pre-Hogyoku Aizen. The form that dealt damage to Aizen and temporarily matched his speed was his black-eyed form. This wiki doesn't differentiate between the black-eyed and normal Nerfed FKT forms in the profile. That's where the problem begins. People think the FKT Ichigo fighting Gin and the FKT Ichigo fighting Aizen are the same.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Your "evidence" doesnt really prove much. Its also super inconsistent for Aizen, who knows like the most secret of secrets of the soul society, to not know that Ulquiorra had his Segunda Etapa.

Knowing all the secrets of the SS doesn't mean Ulquiorra would also know his second stage. That he wouldn't know is already written in the databook scan I sent above. You're just making a counter-argument based on disbelief, my friend. Maybe you didn't even look at the scan I sent.

Like?

White becoming strong enough to break OMZ's seal and stating that he has overpowered OMZ

OMZ himself accepting this idea

In the conversation between Shinji and Ichigo, it is stated that the Hollow in the Vaizard's Zanpakuto is constantly getting stronger. White himself also told Ichigo, "When you get stronger, I get stronger too." You can check out the Vaizard training episodes. I'm not posting them on Imgur because I don't have all the scans on PC right now.

How so?

If you're asking about Tokinada's statement, it was said that the fortress he built to conquer the world contained "artillery bombardments equivalent in power to nuclear weapons on the world of the living." Actually, I seem to have misremembered the statement. Now that I'm writing this to you, I realize it wasn't that he built the fortress to avoid damage from nuclear weapons. That's how I remembered it...

Just open a crt and see how it goes. It makes no sense for Ulquiorra to be even near the level you claim him to be.

Okay, I was originally planning to open this in the summer, but if you all have something to discuss, I'll create it as soon as possible. Considering the texts I need to write for counter-arguments and the scans I need to gather, this will be quite a long CRT...

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I'm also thinking of opening a short hax CRT before the Ulquiorra CRT.

Do we accept the invisibility of Hollows and Shinigami as having layers? If not, I'll open a CRT featuring Urahara's explanation on this topic from Nestle to Night.

 

[PizzaDante67]

Knowing all the secrets of the SS doesn't mean Ulquiorra would also know his second stage. That he wouldn't know is already written in the databook scan I sent above. You're just making a counter-argument based on disbelief, my friend. Maybe you didn't even look at the scan I sent.

It only shows that Ulquiorra never showed this transformation to Aizen bruh. Nothing says that he didnt know about it.

If you're asking about Tokinada's statement, it was said that the fortress he built to conquer the world contained "artillery bombardments equivalent in power to nuclear weapons on the world of the living." Actually, I seem to have misremembered the statement. Now that I'm writing this to you, I realize it wasn't that he built the fortress to avoid damage from nuclear weapons. That's how I remembered it...

Using Artillery Bombardments comparable to nuclear weapons wouldnt even be something crazy tbh. Not absolutely everyone in Bleach is a 3-B monster.....

Okay, I was originally planning to open this in the summer, but if you all have something to discuss, I'll create it as soon as possible. Considering the texts I need to write for counter-arguments and the scans I need to gather, this will be quite a long CRT...

Yeah well....i wish you good luck with that. Youre probably not gonna get the results youre hoping for.

 

[Crobatman44]

Im like fairly certain if Ulq ever gets accepted as stronger than all of these characters it would just be solved by downgrading everyone around him and having Ulq cap the verse.
Which is like is slightly amusing to think about but that's it.

 

[AppleLord]

He made sure it was personal.

Yhwach holds grudges.

First order after coming back, kill the guy who stabbed me.

 

[Apotheosis69]

what is Aizen's latest speed? I know that profiles didnt updated because of waiting for end of the anime

Wdym by latest in this instance?

 

[KaramcaS]

Wdym by latest in this instance?

As far as I know, Bleach profiles aren't being updated because they're waiting for the anime to end. Aizen's Speed is 24c according to his profile. My question is; Is there a higher speed that's been accepted?

 

[PizzaDante67]

He made sure it was personal.

Yhwach holds grudges.

First order after coming back, kill the guy who stabbed me.

Yhwach be like: F*ck THAT dude in particular

As far as I know, Bleach profiles aren't being updated because they're waiting for the anime to end. Aizen's Speed is 24c according to his profile. My question is; Is there a higher speed that's been accepted?

I don’t think anything higher than 24c is accepted as of right now.

 

[Apotheosis69]

As far as I know, Bleach profiles aren't being updated because they're waiting for the anime to end. Aizen's Speed is 24c according to his profile. My question is; Is there a higher speed that's been accepted?

Well, Speed values are being worked on. But not accepted yet, only up to Soul Society Arc. But DragonNova has to edit them in first, but I think he's busy with life rn.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

It only shows that Ulquiorra never showed this transformation to Aizen bruh. Nothing says that he didnt know about it.

How would Aizen know about this form without Ulquiorra showing it to him? We can already tell he used the form for the first time against Ichigo from the fact that he used Lanza Del Relampago for the first time. Besides, knowing about the existence of the Segunda Etapa doesn't mean you'll know how powerful it is, you realize that, right?

Using Artillery Bombardments comparable to nuclear weapons wouldnt even be something crazy tbh. Not absolutely everyone in Bleach is a 3-B monster.....

I understand. I remembered that conversation very differently. What I recalled was a sentence along the lines of, "They built the fortress to protect themselves from nuclear weapons." And when I looked at it again to write to you, I realized you were talking about the fortress's weapons.

Youre probably not gonna get the results youre hoping for.

We'll see in 85 days

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

I'm also thinking of opening a short hax CRT before the Ulquiorra CRT.

Do we accept the invisibility of Hollows and Shinigami as having layers?

.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Do we accept the invisibility of Hollows and Shinigami as having layers?

Yes we do. It's on their respective physiology pages.

 

[PizzaDante67]

How would Aizen know about this form without Ulquiorra showing it to him? We can already tell he used the form for the first time against Ichigo from the fact that he used Lanza Del Relampago for the first time. Besides, knowing about the existence of the Segunda Etapa doesn't mean you'll know how powerful it is, you realize that, right?

So what i'm seeing is that you think that Aizen didnt know about his SE just because Ulquiorra never showed it to him? Guess we'll see how many people agree with that in afew months then.

 

[KaramcaS]

Well, Speed values are being worked on. But not accepted yet, only up to Soul Society Arc. But DragonNova has to edit them in first, but I think he's busy with life rn.

Do we have any speed rating above 24c anyway?

 

[Deceived3596]

Ichigo and Prime Soul King scale above that value through multipliers and scaling respectively. We also have Lille, who has Infinite attack speed with his X-Axis.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Do we have any speed rating above 24c anyway?

Yes through Scaling chain multipliers

 

[KaramcaS]

Yes through Scaling chain multipliers

dude why are we talking word by word just say it, what is aizen's speed

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

So what i'm seeing is that you think that Aizen didnt know about his SE just because Ulquiorra never showed it to him? Guess we'll see how many people agree with that in afew months then.

You know you need proof to refute an idea, right? You still haven't presented any evidence that Aizen knew about the Segunda Etapa.

Yhwach didn't know about Urahara's Bankai, so he didn't give Askin instructions on it. Urahara stated that the reason was that he would be using it for the first time in battle. If even Yhwach couldn't know about a character form's existence without revealing it, how could Aizen know about a form he hadn't seen? Furthermore, knowing about a form's existence doesn't mean he knows its power level.

You don't think Aizen can read minds or has extradimensional vision, do you?

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Yes we do. It's on their respective physiology pages.

I understand. I was just asking because the physiology page didn't mention 'layer'.

 

[Naeblis495]

You don't think Aizen has extradimensional vision, do you?

But...he does. He could sense exactly when Ulquiorra was about to break out of the Caja Negation dimension and issued an order to him while Ulquiorra was still inside. And Ulquiorra himself, while still trapped in another dimension, could hear him and responded to his order once out. Another thing that confirm this is Aizen calling for Wonderweiss from HM to FKT. Starrk said so himself : "If this one arrived, it means Aizen-sama's patience ran out." Clearly saying WW is here on Aizen's command.

He can sense and communicate to beings in another dimension. If he can sense Ulquiorra in another dimension ,then he know about Segunda's power. He even had nothing to do but sense things around while trapped in Yama Jokaku Enjo.

 

[Apotheosis69]

dude why are we talking word by word just say it, what is aizen's speed

Bruh I ain't spoilin that shit

 

[Deceived3596]

HST Showdown Continued - (Round 7 - Prodigies)

==Introduction== After a long wait, I decided to continue my "HST Showdown" series of threads. I recently remembered them, so I decided to check them out again. I saw the discussions they created, the debates that occurred in them. They were healthy and fun to participate in, and I miss those...

vsbattles.com

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

But...he does. He could sense exactly when Ulquiorra was about to break out of the Caja Negation dimension and issued an order to him while Ulquiorra was still inside. And Ulquiorra himself, while still trapped in another dimension, could hear him and responded to his order once out. Another thing that confirm this is Aizen calling for Wonderweiss from HM to FKT. Starrk said so himself : "If this one arrived, it means Aizen-sama's patience ran out." Clearly saying WW is here on Aizen's command.

He can sense and communicate to beings in another dimension. If he can sense Ulquiorra in another dimension ,then he know about Segunda's power. He even had nothing to do but sense things around while trapped in Yama Jokaku Enjo.

Nice detail, I'd completely forgotten about that Caja Negation scene. However, there's a problem: Arrunierro mentions Aizen ruling over everything under the blue sky, everywhere there's light. Ulquiorra, on the other hand, unlocked the Segunda Etapa at Las Noches.

Also, in the panel ItsMeat posted at the beginning of the previous page, Aizen uses the phrase "you seem to have gained an even greater power." So, the character himself, looking at Ichigo's new Hollow mask, points out that he's stronger than before. If he had seen/felt the battle at Las Noches, he shouldn't have used a phrase like "it seems to have gained an even greater power."

Furthermore, he should have been able to sense Unohana's arrival in the SS.

 

[Naeblis495]

Nice detail, I'd completely forgotten about that Caja Negation scene. However, there's a problem: Arrunierro mentions Aizen ruling over everything under the blue sky, everywhere there's light. Ulquiorra, on the other hand, unlocked the Segunda Etapa at Las Noches.

Also, in the panel ItsMeat posted at the beginning of the previous page, Aizen uses the phrase "you seem to have gained an even greater power." So, the character himself, looking at Ichigo's new Hollow mask, points out that he's stronger than before. If he had seen/felt the battle at Las Noches, he shouldn't have used a phrase like "it seems to have gained an even greater power."

Furthermore, he should have been able to sense Unohana's arrival in the SS.

Caja Negation is a separate dimension...It's not under the light of Las Noches or even in Hueco Mundo. Yet, Aizen was still perfectly able to know when Ulquiorra would break out of it, down to the second (meaning he could sense Ulquiorra in a separate dimension) and have his order be heard by Ulquiorra even tho he hadn't broke out yet. And Starrk clearly say that WW is here because Aizen got tired of waiting ,meaning communication between them occured ,separated by dimensions.


His dialogue with Ichigo could simply be referencing the fact that ichigo could barely use this 'new power' of his. Especially when he later say "Don't dissapoint me, you should be stronger than that." To me, this is a clear indication that he felt the power he displayed against Ulquiorra during his Full Hollow moment and is dissapointed Ichigo didn't master it.

SS Aizen's feats are irrelevant to this. FKT Aizen can do it and TYBW can also do this. You can argue it's the Hogyoku that made him able to do that.

 

[CasperSenar]

Hey who is knowledgable on yhwach here