Marvel CM 1 Problems

[Theglassman12]

@SuperNova55555 Have you actually addressed Eternity? Because I don't recall you doing that and he's literally stated to be the manifestation of magic, the being that is the literal Marvel Universe itself?

@FinePoint If there's any proof that basic forms of magic don't qualify for CM1 at all then by all means I'm down to hear it, but way too many scans exist for us to just say that they're limited by default. We can also just say it's not combat applicable for all forms of magic users rather than saying it's limited cause that'd imply Eternity is a limited concept in some way.

 

[FinePoint]

@FinePoint If there's any proof that basic forms of magic don't qualify for CM1 at all then by all means I'm down to hear it, but way too many scans exist for us to just say that they're limited by default. We can also just say it's not combat applicable for all forms of magic users rather than saying it's limited cause that'd imply Eternity is a limited concept in some way.

No, it would just imply their manipulation of it is limited. It says nothing of the concept itself.

Regular Concept Manipulation would imply being able to make wide general changes to the concept itself.

Since they can only manipulate it to do relatively small-scale spells it's fair to call it Limited.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Because a universal concept has objects part of (defined by) it, and these parts can be referred to as the whole linguistically.

For example, you can say that there's "death all around" without disbarring death as a concept.

The parts are not the concept, if that’s what you’re implying. Not only would this reduce the universal to a composition, but it would make it contingent on what it predicates. I.e you fundamentally reduce it to CM2 at the absolute best

@SuperNova55555 Have you actually addressed Eternity? Because I don't recall you doing that and he's literally stated to be the manifestation of magic, the being that is the literal Marvel Universe itself?

If Eternity is Marvel, then that would make everything CM1. But if Eternity isn’t CM1 in that case (which it wouldn’t be if it were the set of all marvel objects), then the issue is avoided.

Alternatively, you can just say that Eternity as a concept is fundamentally different from Eternity as a manifestation, in which you can say the former is CM1 and the latter is not, and the issue is avoided similarly. Obviously this still means that Magic isn’t CM1 intrinsically.

 

[Robo432343]

There is a big misunderstanding about Marvel Magic system. I think the main issue is with the basic magic level since those from Low level/Common Spells and above are spell casters while few from Basic level aren't.

The Hulk and Juggernaut do not manipulate concepts or plot. It is the magic nature that is Conceptual and Narrative and depending on it's application can do a lot of things. The only benefits bricks like Hulk and Juggernaut get from magic are resistance to plot manipulation, Law manipulation, conceptual type 1 and among other abilities that comes with basic magic and magic nature hence it's no combat applicable but 1-A combat resistance to anyone they would fight. I do get that in the past during Versus battles, arguments where made stating Hulk can gamma punch and destroy you on Conceptual level but that was false. I do think he can do that only if he can give out huge amount of gamma energy which he does when in an enraged state or so.


But i do think abilities like Conceptual Type 1, Plot Manipulation and few others should be removed from Basic Level to Nature of magic tabber but some of those abilities can also be listed on Low level/Common Spells tabber

I agree with this

 

[Robo432343]

These are all the basic magic users i think apart from the abstracts

Abomination
Agatha Harkness
Amadeus Cho Hulk
Angela
Apocalypse
Black Knight
Blackheart
Colossus
Ghost Rider
Hallows' Eve
Hela
Hulk
Invisible Woman
Jane Froster
Jean Grey
Juggernaut
Khonshu
Kraven the Hunter
Mephisto
Mindless Ones
Moon Knight
Nico Minoru
Nyx
Odin
Pluto
Red Hulk
Red She-Hulk
Marduk Kurios
Satannish
She-Hulk
Skaar
The Stranger
Surtur
Thor
Those Who Sit Above In Shadow
Tyr Odinson
White Fox
Zeus

 

[KLOL506]

Genuinely, to all parties, take a chill pill. I will now ask for staff to delete irrelevant derailing and condescending comments.

@Planck69 @LephyrTheRevanchist

 

[FinePoint]

Genuinely, to all parties, take a chill pill. I will now ask for staff to delete irrelevant derailing and condescending comments.

I have deleted them and echo the above sentiment.

I understand this is a complicated and controversial topic, but we should do our best to debate it with civility if we want to make progress in any direction.

 

[Theglassman12]

@SuperNova55555 What issue is there in regards to Eternity being tied to magic? Because you're not remotely mentioning an actual issue with Eternity being a fundamental part of Magic itself. Can you prove that what Eternity is just isn't true or is this just more of you making more argument from incredulities?

@FinePoint That feels a bit half backwards imo. It being small scale spells doesn't change the fact they're controlling something that's CM1 related. If it's a small level spell but this spell in general is still controlling something that's CM1 in nature then it would still count as CM1. Again we can just specify the extent of what these characters are capable of doing with magic rather than saying it's just limited, because limited would imply they don't have any control and it might just be a side effect of something they do in certain occasions.

In case my point wasn't made clear, having the pages be more fleshed out on what characters can or cannot do is fine by me.

 

[SuperNova55555]

@SuperNova55555 What issue is there in regards to Eternity being tied to magic? Because you're not remotely mentioning an actual issue with Eternity being a fundamental part of Magic itself. Can you prove that what Eternity is just isn't true or is this just more of you making more argument from incredulities?

You said Eternity is Marvel. And I’m saying that if that were true, and Eternity is a universal concept, then all particular things (atoms, for example) are universals, as well.

And then I gave you a detailed response about how to approach the issue, but it seems you’re ignoring it and just asking me again lol.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yes, and there's scans that literally explains that Magic literally came from Eternity, the literal concept of the Marvel Universe, making it Universal in scope by default. So again what's the issue? Please actually explain why this is wrong and we can't use it because you're not giving any actual arguments. You're saying there's an issue but you're not explaining what the actual issue is beyond just saying "oh just everything is universal" while not explaining the issue with Magic being tied to Eternity.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Either way, lets focus on the currectly topic (NEP and Paracosistency) and let CM for other CRT, as this is derailing at this point

tbh, i think Magic per se, fits as Paraconsistency but type 1, while the highest realm of magic (such as the magic of chaos) is what fits as type 2

while the NEP i think it fits better as type 3 rather than type 2, as type 3 is about being neither existence nor nonexistence, which where most of Description of magic fits

Magic is the in-between, the fraying edge between reality and unreality.<a href="https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Magic_(Marvel_Comics)#cite_note-TOM#2-45"><span>[</span>45<span>]</span></a>

 

[SuperNova55555]

Yes, and there's scans that literally explains that Magic literally came from Eternity, the literal concept of the Marvel Universe, making it Universal in scope by default. So again what's the issue? Please actually explain why this is wrong and we can't use it because you're not giving any actual arguments. You're saying there's an issue but you're not explaining what the actual issue is beyond just saying "oh just everything is universal" while not explaining the issue with Magic being tied to Eternity.

So is Eternity the concept of Marvel, or is it Marvel itself?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

So is Eternity the concept of Marvel, or is it Marvel itself?

We all know you not read comics, can you stop trying to rage bait? and focus on topic and i dont know, post scans about why Magic is not NEP or paracasistent

 

[SuperNova55555]

We all know you not read comics, can you stop trying to rage bait? and focus on topic and i dont know, post scans about why Magic is not NEP or paracasistent

What an absurdly unsubstantiatial response. Address the question.

Also, let’s be clear here, this thread is for CM1. That’s been the main topic since the og post.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

What an absurdly unsubstantiatial response. Address the question.

Also, let’s be clear here, this thread is for CM1. That’s been the main topic since the og post.

Except the whole topic is about the Skill of people, it have be added to propuse, in the OP about put those with CM using their example (E.i. someone use magic to kill a type 1 concept, then his skill level allow him do it)

Currently magic users in Marvel such as Basic Magic users have abilities like type 1 conceptual manipulation, plot manipulation, and other abilities. I have no problems with the nature of magic itself being a type 1 concept but my issue lies with the fact that these characters are getting concept hax simply because their powers have magic in it.

this thread isnt about CM being or no type 1, is about how people use magic to do X thing, many agree Hulk cannot passively delete the concept of air just by thunderclap

 

[KLOL506]

Given that the topic has since long been changed to something else, I'd suggest to all parties here that any and all derailing be halted and we explicitly focus on what's being discussed right now. Which is to elaborate upon the current Magic Page and which character gets to use what.

Because comments like these and these are absolutely not within that topic and are effectively derailing.

Also I don't think Eternity is remotely relevant to this discussion at hand so that talk should be dropped as well. The topic is about elaborating on Magic's abilities being further elaborated upon, not about its nature.

 

[Robo432343]

many agree Hulk cannot passively delete the concept of air just by thunderclap

yes but its being argued that whenever a magic user is casting a spell or blast, they are manipulating the concept, information, plot etc to make it happen as ridiculous as that sounds

 

[SuperNova55555]

yes but its being argued that whenever a magic user is casting a spell or blast, they are manipulating the concept, information, plot etc to make it happen

Also supposedly being implied that every normal magic user is also actively manipulating Eternity whenever they cast the most basic spells.

 

[Eseseso]

Also supposedly being implied that every normal magic user is also actively manipulating Eternity whenever they cast the most basic spells.

Tbf that's how Loki, a talented magician/god, describes magic, crazy as it sounds.

(I admittedly didn't think of it as such until Ultima explained it to me).

In G.O.D.S., magic is also described as "making the universe bend to your will through words of power", and in What If? #18, Uatu says that sorcerers "manipulate universal forces".

 

[Antvasima]

I still don't think that we should apply this type of storytelling consistency between many hundreds of different authors to the mechanics of Marvel Comics magic, as it causes widespread extreme wanking and unreliability, as usual for this verse.

@The_Impress

 

[SuperNova55555]

Tbf that's how Loki, a talented magician/god, describes magic, crazy as it sounds.

(I admittedly didn't think of it as such until Ultima explained it to me).

In G.O.D.S., magic is also described as "making the universe bend to your will through words of power", and in What If? #18, Uatu says that sorcerers "manipulate universal forces".

So like. Is Eternity the universe itself then? The question still hasn’t been answered to me

 

[Eseseso]

So like. Is Eternity the universe itself then? The question still hasn’t been answered to me

Yes. Earth-616 is Eternity

 

[Robo432343]

Also supposedly being implied that every normal magic user is also actively manipulating Eternity whenever they cast the most basic spells.

well yeah but only a small portion of him

 

[SuperNova55555]

Yes. Earth-616 is Eternity

Right. So is "Earth" here a universal concept? What about the atoms making it up?

 

[Hecky2222]

If Earth 616 is universe where Marvel most events happen and Eternity is Earth 616 doesn't that mean nothing there is "physical" and it is abstract space?

 

[Eseseso]

Right. So is "Earth" here a universal concept? What about the atoms making it up?

Earth-616 refers to the entire Main Marvel Universe, yes I know the name is confusing.

For reference, the former Ultimate Universe was Earth-1610, and the current Ultimate Universe is Earth-6160

well yeah but only a small portion of him

If Earth 616 is universe where Marvel most events happen and Eternity is Earth 616 doesn't that mean nothing there is "physical" and it is abstract space?

Tired of repeating stuff that is already stated on the magic page, so I'm just going to link this:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Magic_(Marvel_Comics)#Magic_as_an_Independent_Universal_Concept

And in contrast to what a certain staff member/bureaucrat thinks, the blog I made shows that despite there being hundreds of writers, there are consistencies in how magic is portrayed across Marvel's history.

 

[Hecky2222]

Tired of repeating stuff

Bruh I just asked if Earth 616 physical space or abstract space jusr

 

[SuperNova55555]

Bruh I just asked if Earth 616 physical space or abstract space jusr

I like how instead of answering questions, they js redirect you to another long-ass page and expect you to js get your confusions answered

 

[Eseseso]

Bruh I just asked if Earth 616 physical space or abstract space jusr

It's both, since science and magic are intertwined across reality.

 

[Eseseso]

I like how instead of answering questions, they js redirect you to another long-ass page and expect you to js get your confusions answered

Perhaps if you'd actually read the page you'd see that it does answer the questions, with actual scans to boot.

Particularly the section at the top literally explaining magic's nature. It's not my fault that some people don't want to read a detailed page that counters their arguments.

 

[FinePoint]

I think this discussion has drifted way off-topic.

This thread isn't meant to be about whether magic is a Type 1 concept or what a concept is in general, it's meant to be about whether we should apply manipulation of that concept to every character who uses magic.

We should address that first and a different thread can be made to discuss disbarring it as a concept entirely.

 

[Robo432343]

I think this discussion has drifted way off-topic.

This thread isn't meant to be about whether magic is a Type 1 concept or what a concept is in general, it's meant to be about whether we should apply manipulation of that concept to every character who uses magic.

We should address that first and a different thread can be made to discuss disbarring it as a concept entirely.

Who do you think should have the concept/plot abilities and who shouldn't

 

[FinePoint]

Who do you think should have the concept/plot abilities and who shouldn't

Like I said before, I think they can all have it but it should be Limited by default and the extent specified.

 

[The_Impress]

I still don't think that we should apply this type of storytelling consistency between many hundreds of different authors to the mechanics of Marvel Comics magic, as it causes widespread extreme wanking and unreliability, as usual for this verse.

@The_Impress

I don't wanna address the Marvel Magic problems in this thread

 

[The_Impress]

In fact I think the thread should be closed right now and reopened until some of the prior threads have been concluded. There are a bunch of threads with major scaling implications left abandoned presently.

Don't overwhelm the supporterbase

 

[Thermor]

In fact I think the thread should be closed right now and reopened until some of the prior threads have been concluded. There are a bunch of threads with major scaling implications left abandoned presently.

Don't overwhelm the supporterbase

I know Supernova was questioning marvel's magic being CM1, can take it to the general first.

 

[FinePoint]

In fact I think the thread should be closed right now and reopened until some of the prior threads have been concluded. There are a bunch of threads with major scaling implications left abandoned presently.

Don't overwhelm the supporterbase

Well that seems kind of disrespectful to the five pages of discussion which have already happened.

People clearly care a lot about this issue, so I'm not sure we should just throw it away after debating it so much.

 

[Excellence616]

Well that seems kind of disrespectful to the five pages of discussion which have already happened.

People clearly care a lot about this issue, so I'm not sure we should just throw it away after debating it so much.

Well she is right. We have a lot of ongoing threads. Besides, the reason for the thread is about how Marvel concept type 1 and others are combat applicable or not

I already talk to @Eseseso and others that the only way out is removing some abilities from basic magic tabber and adding it to the Nature of magic tabber and adding a note stating the non combat and combat applicable of basic magic since that were the issue is coming from and Low Sorcerers level are all spell casters with valid combat application of magic

 

[Robo432343]

I already talk to @Eseseso and others that the only way out is removing some abilities from basic magic tabber and adding it to the Nature of magic tabber and adding a note stating the non combat and combat applicable of basic magic since that were the issue is coming from and Low Sorcerers level are all spell casters with valid combat application of magic

is everyone ok with this?
bump

 

[Antvasima]

is everyone ok with this?
bump

Well, it seems like our staff members here have accepted this revision, so it can probably be applied now.