Minor Cthulhu Mythos Revision

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This isn't so much an actual change in tiering as it is a minor adjustment to the tiering currently on several pages. Basically, the High 1-B low end on the pages of anything that would eventually come to be called an "Outer God" after Lovecraft's time (Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth, Nyarlathotep, etc.) is unnecessary and they should just be 1-A.

Yog-Sothoth and the Archetypes

Obviously the idea of infinite higher dimensions within the setting originates from Through the Gates of the Silver Key, as explained here.

• "Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.
  
  
  Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously.
  
  
  These revelations came with a godlike solemnity which left Carter unable to doubt. Even though they lay almost beyond his comprehension, he felt that they must be true in the light of that final cosmic reality which belies all local perspectives and narrow partial views; and he was familiar enough with profound speculations to be free from the bondage of local and partial conceptions. Had his whole quest not been based upon a faith in the unreality of the local and partial?
  
  
  After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will."

While this on its own could imply the ultimate, archetypal beings are infinite-dimensional in nature, the story itself makes it clear they are separate from and transcendent of dimensional reality. Notice the final sentence of the above section mentions that due to their command of all angles, they can either view the cosmos through the illusion of change or as its true, changeless totality; both of these things are merely a matter of their will, because they are not bound to any of the laws of the "inner world".

Supporting evidence for this idea comes immediately after.

• "All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions. Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case."

Following this is another important quote:

• "While the silence still lasted, Randolph Carter radiated forth the thoughts and questions which assailed him. He knew that in this ultimate abyss he was equidistant from every facet of his archetype—human or non-human, earthly or extra-earthly, galactic or trans-galactic; and his curiosity regarding the other phases of his being—especially those phases which were farthest from an earthly 1928 in time and space, or which had most persistently haunted his dreams throughout life—was at fever heat. He felt that his archetypal ENTITY could at will send him bodily to any of these phases of bygone and distant life by changing his consciousness-plane, and despite the marvels he had undergone he burned for the further marvel of walking in the flesh through those grotesque and incredible scenes which visions of the night had fragmentarily brought him."

In the ultimate void, Randolph Carter is explicitly "equidistant" from every facet of himself and his archetype, which is blatantly because this is a realm that exists beyond dimensional space and thus does not have some exact location within reality's infinite-dimensional structure. This supports a statement from slightly earlier in the story when Carter first perceives Yog-Sothoth.

• "In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are."

"Which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike" would be extremely weird and contradictory wording if this place was ultimately still supposed to be situated within the rest of reality and subject to mathematics. Speaking of which, the idea of the ultimate void transcending dimensional space is one that's presented even earlier in the story, well before this actual meeting.

• "Then he drew forth the Silver Key, and made motions and intonations whose source he could only dimly remember. Was anything forgotten? He knew only that he wished to cross the barrier to the untrammelled land of his dreams and the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute."

Another very blatant quote about the Ultimate Gate.

• "A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter."

The nature of what's behind the Ultimate Gate is referred to as "utter and absolute Outsidedness".

• "Slowly there filtered into his mind the truth that this strange chanting ritual had been one of instruction, and that the Companions had been chanted by the Most Ancient One into a new and peculiar kind of sleep, in order that their dreams might open the Ultimate Gate to which the Silver Key was a passport. He knew that in the profundity of this deep sleep they were contemplating unplumbed vastnesses of utter and absolute Outsideness with which the earth had nothing to do, and that they were to accomplish that which his presence had demanded."

Then, of course, are the multiple occasions in which what we think of as "reality" and "identity" are referred to as illusions compared to what lies in the Ultimate Void.

• "'The man of Truth is beyond good and evil,' intoned a voice that was not a voice. 'The man of Truth has ridden to All-Is-One. The man of Truth has learnt that Illusion is the only reality, and that substance is an impostor.'"
• "But amidst the greater terror one lesser terror was diminished; for the searing waves appeared somehow to isolate the beyond-the-gate Carter from his infinity of duplicates—to restore, as it were, a certain amount of the illusion of identity."
• "The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality."
• "And now, in that rise of masonry to which his eyes had been so irresistibly drawn, there appeared the outline of a titanic arch not unlike that which he thought he had glimpsed so long ago in that cave within a cave, on the far, unreal surface of the three-dimensioned earth."

Azathoth

Statements such as these aren't isolated to this story, either. Verse XXII. Azathoth from Fungi from Yuggoth reads as follows:

• "Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,
  Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,
  Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,
  But only Chaos, without form or place.
  Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered
  Things he had dreamed but could not understand,
  While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered
  In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.
  
  They danced insanely to the high, thin whining
  Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,
  Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining
  Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law.
  'I am His Messenger,' the daemon said,
  As in contempt he struck his Master’s head."

This is one of the few mentions of Azathoth by Lovecraft himself, which immediately makes several things clear:

1. He exists in a void of pure chaos without "form or place".
2. This void is "past the bright clusters of dimensioned space" and beyond the limits of time and matter.
3. The "chance combining" of "aimless waves" from either Azathoth or one of his servants "gives each frail cosmos its eternal law".

While far from as elaborate and in-depth as Through the Gates of the Silver Key, this brief verse of poetry paints the same picture of these transcendent beings, existing beyond the limits of reality in a void beyond dimensions. Similar to the concept of reality merely being an infinitely varied and impossibly flawed reflection of the Archetypes, this poem posits that reality is merely an accidental byproduct of the dreaming and music of things completely transcendent of and divorced from it.

The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath reinforces this idea of Azathoth, within a proper narrative.

• "There were, in such voyages, incalculable local dangers; as well as that shocking final peril which gibbers unmentionably outside the ordered universe, where no dreams reach; that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the centre of all infinity—the boundless daemon-sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin, monotonous whine of accursed flutes; to which detestable pounding and piping dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly the gigantic ultimate gods, the blind, voiceless, tenebrous, mindless Other Gods whose soul and messenger is the crawling chaos Nyarlathotep."

Also probably important to mention the fact that dreams not reaching the throne of Azathoth is reiterated throughout the story, which is relevant in a cosmology where dreams not only allow access to the Dreamlands, but the lives of other selves even in higher dimensions, as brought up in TtGotSK.

• "For madness and the void’s wild vengeance are Nyarlathotep’s only gifts to the presumptuous; and frantick though the rider strove to turn his disgusting steed, that leering, tittering shantak coursed on impetuous and relentless, flapping its great slippery wings in malignant joy, and headed for those unhallowed pits whither no dreams reach; that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion where bubbles and blasphemes at infinity’s centre the mindless daemon-sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud."

This idea of Azathoth creating reality is even referenced in a Lovecraft Circle story by Henry Kuttner, Hydra. While only a brief portion in the story, Kuttner repeats the idea of Azathoth unknowingly thinking reality into existence and extrapolates that because of this, thought can be made real in the Center of Ultimate Chaos.

• "There was a certain spot Outside where Scott could achieve his desire. In that place thought was obscurely linked to energy and matter, because of an insane shrill piping (Ludwig said) that eternally filtered from beyond a veil of flickering colors. It was very near the Center, the Center of Chaos, where dwells Azathoth, the Lord of All Things. All that exists was created by the thoughts of Azathoth, and only in the Center of Ultimate Chaos could Scott find means to live again on earth in human form. There is an erasure in Edmond’s notes at this point, and it is only possible to make out the fragment: '. . . of thought made real.'"

In a letter to Clark Ashton Smith in 1930, Lovecraft also refers to Azathoth as such:

• "One very aged pontiff, upon whose forehead is branded a sign which no living man can interpret, & whose statements about his own length of years are wholly incredible, goes so far as to link the image with primal Azathoth, the mindless Lord of Nighted Chaos who is the father of all other horrors & is coeval with the Ultimate Abyss itself; but so audacious a guess is looked upon with fear by most of the priests, to whom even a faint thought of Azathoth is menacing & disquieting........"

Meaning that even though he isn't mentioned directly in TtGotSK, everything within applies to him as well.

TL;DR

The Ultimate Gods being completely detached from and transcendent over space-time (which is confirmed to be infinite-dimensional) is a consistent theme across Lovecraft's works. There's not really reason for them to be lower than 1-A, so the low end should be removed. That's really about it.

Planning to do a re-read of Lovecraft's fiction soon, so I'll see if my opinion changes on anything.

 

[BleedingPeach]

I'm gonna follow this. It seems… interesting.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I mean, as a preliminary, I was always a bit confused on why Ultima chose “1-A”. It always felt like an arbitrary choice because all of these statements are much more consistent with Low 1-A itself (what I had originally proposed), granting that your view here is correct. Putting it at 1-A brings about new assumptions you have to grant (indivisibility) that aren’t presented in the text, basically at all.

And as for the thread itself, it seems to misrepresent the reason it was given High 1-B to begin with. The entire reasoning of it, as exhaustingly laid out by me and @ShinMaximillion , was that holistically speaking, Lovecraft uses “undimensioned” as merely an analogy to whatever entity surpasses the dimensionality of any given realm. For Yog, this displays the difference between infinite and finite dimensions. And for the First Gate, it displays the fact that it’s beyond “earth’s dimensions”.

To quote:

Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know.

Particularly noticeable here is the usage of “we know” in regards to the earlier usage of “undimensioned”, here referring to the same outer extension of the First Gate.

This is important because all the First Gate is in respect to Carter, is the higher-dimensional view of Earth (and we know it’s dimensional, because it’s stated multiple times as so in the text) to the point that all of time spans simultaneously, and is fundamentally unchanging:

A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter.

And as you see, Lovecraft explicitly juxtaposes it with the Ultimate Gate. Since fundamentally as I’ve said, what “undimensioned” means in relation to a particular place is the dimensional extension beyond it, which is unchanging because it already encompasses all temporal extensions of that particular place.

For the First Gate, that is Earth. So it is outside of Earth’s time, change, and outside of dimensions earthlings know (3 dimensions).

For the Ultimate Gate, that is everything. So it is outside of everything’s time, change and of dimensions everything knows (all finite dimensions).

Also, that’s not the only time Yog is called infinite-dimensional.

“I accept. I will not retreat.”

The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shewn the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little gods of earth, with their petty, human interests and connexions—their hatreds, rages, loves, and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faith contrary to reason and Nature.

Anyways, with that said:

While this on its own could imply the ultimate, archetypal beings are infinite-dimensional in nature, the story itself makes it clear they are separate from and transcendent of dimensional reality. Notice the final sentence of the above section mentions that due to their command of all angles, they can either view the cosmos through the illusion of change or as its true, changeless totality; both of these things are merely a matter of their will, because they are not bound to any of the laws of the "inner world".

I’m not sure what this has to do with Yog not being infinite-dimensional.

P1: Yog is infinite-dimensional
P2: But you can change your perspective to be of the entirety of it, or of a fragmentation of it
C: So Yog isn’t infinite-dimensional

Strictly speaking, this is just a non-sequitur. I know it’s a bit pretentious to lay out the argument like this, but I just want to point out that I’m not sure what you’re supposed to be arguing. Like, at all. Unless you think infinite-dimensional objects can’t be “wholes”.

For Lovecraft, as you can see in the first scan you posted, fragmentation of the Archetype is likened to dimensional fragmentation itself, or “slicing” of its infinity, per se. And this what the “angle” refers to; you either see it as a finite-dimensional slice, or as the infinite-dimensional whole.

In the ultimate void, Randolph Carter is explicitly "equidistant" from every facet of himself and his archetype, which is blatantly because this is a realm that exists beyond dimensional space and thus does not have some exact location within reality's infinite-dimensional structure.

P1: Abyss is infinite-dimensional
P2: Carter is detached from his other facets
C: Abyss is not infinite-dimensional

Strange. Another non-sequitur. If only there was a statement that said Carter was detached from his infinite-dimensional fragment in the text. Would save us a lot of time; too bad Lovecraft didn’t add that.

"Which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike" would be extremely weird and contradictory wording if this place was ultimately still supposed to be situated within the rest of reality and subject to mathematics.

Flowery language used for flowery text, waow.

Can you tell me what “outreaching mathematics” is even supposed to mean? Or ya know, how that relates to tiering. Seems like you’re just scaling this of buzzwords, which is honestly what most of this thread (and in general, Lovecraft scalers as a whole) does.

Then, of course, are the multiple occasions in which what we think of as "reality" and "identity" are referred to as illusions compared to what lies in the Ultimate Void.

This is a pretty odd thing to say, because earlier in the post you seemed pretty aware that illusion just refers to change, and not of anything substantial:

through the illusion of change or as its true, changeless totality

So either you have a very skewed view of what Lovecraft is implying here, or you’re just buzzword farming in order to wank.

Azathoth

Those statements are cool and all but:

Their main immediate abode is a still undiscovered and almost lightless planet at the very edge of our solar system—beyond Neptune, and the ninth in distance from the sun. It is, as we have inferred, the object mystically hinted at as “Yuggoth” in certain ancient and forbidden writings; and it will soon be the scene of a strange focussing of thought upon our world in an effort to facilitate mental rapport. I would not be surprised if astronomers became sufficiently sensitive to these thought-currents to discover Yuggoth when the Outer Ones wish them to do so. But Yuggoth, of course, is only the stepping-stone. The main body of the beings inhabits strangely organised abysses wholly beyond the utmost reach of any human imagination. The space-time globule which we recognise as the totality of all cosmic entity is only an atom in the genuine infinity which is theirs. And as much of this infinity as any human brain can hold is eventually to be opened up to me, as it has been to not more than fifty other men since the human race has existed.

I have said that there were things in some of Akeley’s letters—especially the second and most voluminous one—which I would not dare to quote or even form into words on paper. This hesitancy applies with still greater force to the things I heard whispered that evening in the darkened room among the lonely haunted hills. Of the extent of the cosmic horrors unfolded by that raucous voice I cannot even hint. He had known hideous things before, but what he had learned since making his pact with the Outside Things was almost too much for sanity to bear. Even now I absolutely refuse to believe what he implied about the constitution of ultimate infinity, the juxtaposition of dimensions, and the frightful position of our known cosmos of space and time in the unending chain of linked cosmos-atoms which makes up the immediate super-cosmos of curves, angles, and material and semi-material electronic organisation.

Surely I don’t have to explain how Space-Time being an “atom” of a particular place doesn’t immediately delimit 1-A. To me, in fact, it seems pretty consistent how Lovecraft posits something “transcending” a particular thing as being merely infinite in relation to it. Thus, also beyond the understanding of the finite things.

So yea, not only do I disagree with the thread, but in fact I believe that the “1-A end” of it should be the thing getting removed here. If not, at least to be bumped down to Low 1-A instead.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

And as for the thread itself, it seems to misrepresent the reason it was given High 1-B to begin with. The entire reasoning of it, as exhaustingly laid out by me and @ShinMaximillion , was that holistically speaking, Lovecraft uses “undimensioned” as merely an analogy to whatever entity surpasses the dimensionality of any given realm. For Yog, this displays the difference between infinite and finite dimensions. And for the First Gate, it displays the fact that it’s beyond “earth’s dimensions”.

He uses the specific term "undimensioned" in this vague way, yes. Which is why I did not include any of those quotes in the OP, as they are never used in regards to the Ultimate Void or Archetypes. "Undimensioned" is used a single time in the story, which is applied to the realm of the Ancient Ones, and is then qualified with the following.

• "Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."

It is made clear within this specific circumstances that this terminology is referring to the "dimensions we know", and is thus not inherently a beyond-dimensional statement. Compare that with what is said about the Ultimate Void.

• "He knew only that he wished to cross the barrier to the untrammelled land of his dreams and the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute."

When in the Ultimate Void and conversing with Yog-Sothoth, this following sentence is used to make it even more clear that the intent is for it to be located outside of dimensional space. I'm not really sure what else it could mean.

• "All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions."

To quote:

Particularly noticeable here is the usage of “we know” in regards to the earlier usage of “undimensioned”, here referring to the same outer extension of the First Gate.

This is important because all the First Gate is in respect to Carter, is the higher-dimensional view of Earth (and we know it’s dimensional, because it’s stated multiple times as so in the text) to the point that all of time spans simultaneously, and is fundamentally unchanging:

And as you see, Lovecraft explicitly juxtaposes it with the Ultimate Gate. Since fundamentally as I’ve said, what “undimensioned” means in relation to a particular place is the dimensional extension beyond it, which is unchanging because it already encompasses all temporal extensions of that particular place.

For the First Gate, that is Earth. So it is outside of Earth’s time, change, and outside of dimensions earthlings know (3 dimensions).

For the Ultimate Gate, that is everything. So it is outside of everything’s time, change and of dimensions everything knows (all finite dimensions).

Also, that’s not the only time Yog is called infinite-dimensional.

This feels like it's conflating two separate things without a direct connection. If we were going off of Yog and the Ultimate Void just being called "undimensioned", then yeah this would line up. But it isn't. That terminology is only used within the context of describing the Ancient Ones and their realm, which explicitly do not share the completely transcendental properties of the Ultimate Void.

• "A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter."

Again, while the world of the Ancient Ones is a higher-dimensional extension of Earth, the Ultimate Void is referred to as "utter and absolute Outsidedness with which the earth had nothing to do."

• "Slowly there filtered into his mind the truth that this strange chanting ritual had been one of instruction, and that the Companions had been chanted by the Most Ancient One into a new and peculiar kind of sleep, in order that their dreams might open the Ultimate Gate to which the Silver Key was a passport. He knew that in the profundity of this deep sleep they were contemplating unplumbed vastnesses of utter and absolute Outsideness with which the earth had nothing to do, and that they were to accomplish that which his presence had demanded."

The nature of these realms is very much not the same and far more clarity is given to just how "outside" of everything the Ultimate Void is supposed to be, whereas the "undimensioned" realm of the Ancient Ones is merely vaguely transcendent of Earth.

Anyways, with that said:

I’m not sure what this has to do with Yog not being infinite-dimensional.

P1: Yog is infinite-dimensional
P2: But you can change your perspective to be of the entirety of it, or of a fragmentation of it
C: So Yog isn’t infinite-dimensional

Strictly speaking, this is just a non-sequitur. I know it’s a bit pretentious to lay out the argument like this, but I just want to point out that I’m not sure what you’re supposed to be arguing. Like, at all. Unless you think infinite-dimensional objects can’t be “wholes”.

That is not what I am suggesting. The section I was referring to reads as follows:

• "After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will."

Change is merely a function of consciousness viewing the world from various cosmic angles. The beings of the "inner worlds" are subject to these "variety of angles of consciousness". The text then goes on to say the entities of the Ultimate Void "command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will." I bring this up solely because the way the text states viewing reality with the illusion of change or as an unchanging totality is merely a matter of how they will it, as they "command all angles". This is weirder but less specific terminology than something like "because they are infinite-dimensional". It is just another things meant to emphasize their "otherness", not something meant to be a smoking gun unto itself.

For Lovecraft, as you can see in the first scan you posted, fragmentation of the Archetype is likened to dimensional fragmentation itself, or “slicing” of its infinity, per se. And this what the “angle” refers to; you either see it as a finite-dimensional slice, or as the infinite-dimensional whole.

Yes, and the statement that directly says they are "merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions" is two paragraphs after.

P1: Abyss is infinite-dimensional
P2: Carter is detached from his other facets
C: Abyss is not infinite-dimensional

Strange. Another non-sequitur. If only there was a statement that said Carter was detached from his infinite-dimensional fragment in the text. Would save us a lot of time; too bad Lovecraft didn’t add that.

I provided multiple quotes about the void being outside of dimensions entirely. Additionally, this is an exact quote from the story: "all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time." This quote, again, comes after the lengthy segment describing how higher dimensions stretch upwards infinitely.

Flowery language used for flowery text, waow.

Can you tell me what “outreaching mathematics” is even supposed to mean? Or ya know, how that relates to tiering.

Notice how I at no point ever said the Ultimate Void should automatically get some specific tier because it "outreaches fancy and mathematics alike". This is merely supporting evidence that within the story and Lovecraft's fiction, it is meant to be wholly apart from and transcendent of all of time and space. If I thought this was enough for a specific tier on its own, I wouldn't have spent the rest of the post on other quotes.

Seems like you’re just scaling this of buzzwords, which is honestly what most of this thread (and in general, Lovecraft scalers as a whole) does.

Can we genuinely not do this shit? I disagree with you about whether quotes referring to something imply it's infinite-dimensional or completely dimensionally transcendent. I do not want to turn such a simple and ultimately meaningless discussion into the most annoying thing in the world.

This is a pretty odd thing to say, because earlier in the post you seemed pretty aware that illusion just refers to change, and not of anything substantial:

So either you have a very skewed view of what Lovecraft is implying here, or you’re just buzzword farming in order to wank.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. The idea of change being illusion is indeed a substantial part of this discussion. "Change" is also not limited to just time (though this is one of the things explicitly called out as illusory), but the idea of self, substance, and our world as a whole. I don't know what you think I'm implying, but it's not as simple as "illusion = 1-A". This is meant to be looked at as a larger picture, as the Ultimate Void is repeatedly shown as more primal, beyond, and "outside" dimensioned space in a way that is different from merely being its apex.

Those statements are cool and all but:


Surely I don’t have to explain how Space-Time being an “atom” of a particular place doesn’t immediately delimit 1-A. To me, in fact, it seems pretty consistent how Lovecraft posits something “transcending” a particular thing as being merely infinite in relation to it. Thus, also beyond the understanding of the finite things.

These statements are from The Whisperer in Darkness, are they not? Because the "Outer Ones" being referred to are the Mi-Go, not any of the mythos gods.

• "The Outer Beings are perhaps the most marvellous organic things in or beyond all space and time—members of a cosmos-wide race of which all other life-forms are merely degenerate variants. They are more vegetable than animal, if these terms can be applied to the sort of matter composing them, and have a somewhat fungoid structure; though the presence of a chlorophyll-like substance and a very singular nutritive system differentiate them altogether from true cormophytic fungi. Indeed, the type is composed of a form of matter totally alien to our part of space—with electrons having a wholly different vibration-rate. That is why the beings cannot be photographed on the ordinary camera films and plates of our known universe, even though our eyes can see them. With proper knowledge, however, any good chemist could make a photographic emulsion which would record their images.
  
  
  The genus is unique in its ability to traverse the heatless and airless interstellar void in full corporeal form, and some of its variants cannot do this without mechanical aid or curious surgical transpositions. Only a few species have the ether-resisting wings characteristic of the Vermont variety. Those inhabiting certain remote peaks in the Old World were brought in other ways. Their external resemblance to animal life, and to the sort of structure we understand as material, is a matter of parallel evolution rather than of close kinship. Their brain-capacity exceeds that of any other surviving life-form, although the winged types of our hill country are by no means the most highly developed. Telepathy is their usual means of discourse, though they have rudimentary vocal organs which, after a slight operation (for surgery is an incredibly expert and every-day thing among them), can roughly duplicate the speech of such types of organism as still use speech."

Likewise, the "space-time globule" being referred to is the known universe, correct? I'm not sure how that contradicts what I posted, as these quotes are about entirely separate things and the relation of various universes. If there is a specific bit of the novella I'm forgetting, please let me know.

 

[SuperNova55555]

He uses the specific term "undimensioned" in this vague way, yes. Which is why I did not include any of those quotes in the OP, as they are never used in regards to the Ultimate Void or Archetypes. "Undimensioned" is used a single time in the story, which is applied to the realm of the Ancient Ones, and is then qualified with the following.

• "Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."

It is made clear within this specific circumstances that this terminology is referring to the "dimensions we know", and is thus not inherently a beyond-dimensional statement. Compare that with what is said about the Ultimate Void.

• "He knew only that he wished to cross the barrier to the untrammelled land of his dreams and the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute."

When in the Ultimate Void and conversing with Yog-Sothoth, this following sentence is used to make it even more clear that the intent is for it to be located outside of dimensional space. I'm not really sure what else it could mean.

• "All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions."

This seems to avoid my original point. I never implied that “we know” would refer to Yog as well. I’m saying that the verbiage of “being beyond dimensions” or the sort is used idiosyncratically.

This feels like it's conflating two separate things without a direct connection. If we were going off of Yog and the Ultimate Void just being called "undimensioned", then yeah this would line up. But it isn't. That terminology is only used within the context of describing the Ancient Ones and their realm, which explicitly do not share the completely transcendental properties of the Ultimate Void.

• "A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter."

Again, while the world of the Ancient Ones is a higher-dimensional extension of Earth, the Ultimate Void is referred to as "utter and absolute Outsidedness with which the earth had nothing to do."

• "Slowly there filtered into his mind the truth that this strange chanting ritual had been one of instruction, and that the Companions had been chanted by the Most Ancient One into a new and peculiar kind of sleep, in order that their dreams might open the Ultimate Gate to which the Silver Key was a passport. He knew that in the profundity of this deep sleep they were contemplating unplumbed vastnesses of utter and absolute Outsideness with which the earth had nothing to do, and that they were to accomplish that which his presence had demanded."

The nature of these realms is very much not the same and far more clarity is given to just how "outside" of everything the Ultimate Void is supposed to be, whereas the "undimensioned" realm of the Ancient Ones is merely vaguely transcendent of Earth.

This response is also unsubstantial. It’s pretty clear that the Void is much more transcendental. But I’m arguing that it’s in a quantitative sense, by virtue of it using the outer extension as a reference point. You spamming more buzzwords doesn’t rlly change the holistic meaning of the text.

That is not what I am suggesting. The section I was referring to reads as follows:

• "After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will."

Change is merely a function of consciousness viewing the world from various cosmic angles. The beings of the "inner worlds" are subject to these "variety of angles of consciousness". The text then goes on to say the entities of the Ultimate Void "command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will." I bring this up solely because the way the text states viewing reality with the illusion of change or as an unchanging totality is merely a matter of how they will it, as they "command all angles". This is weirder but less specific terminology than something like "because they are infinite-dimensional". It is just another things meant to emphasize their "otherness", not something meant to be a smoking gun unto itself.

I agree that slices are derived by viewing the archetype in angles. I’m confused as to how this adds to your point.

I provided multiple quotes about the void being outside of dimensions entirely. Additionally, this is an exact quote from the story: "all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time." This quote, again, comes after the lengthy segment describing how higher dimensions stretch upwards infinitely.

Once again, this misses the whole point of my entire comment. You can’t just spam buzzwords without understanding how they relate to the meaning of the text. Carter is outside of time there because he exists in a place which spans across all moments in time. So then, temporal progression is delimited, and so is change.

Yes, and the statement that directly says they are "merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions" is two paragraphs after.

^ or it is outside of dimensions, because all things are limited in the fragmented finite dimensions. It’s pretty simple. Really.

Also I noticed you ignored he scan I provided about Carter realizing there are infinite dimensions only after meeting Yog. Huh. Seems strange for that to be put in. It can’t be that infinity here is analogized to being outside of limited finitude, no?

Notice how I at no point ever said the Ultimate Void should automatically get some specific tier because it "outreaches fancy and mathematics alike". This is merely supporting evidence that within the story and Lovecraft's fiction, it is meant to be wholly apart from and transcendent of all of time and space. If I thought this was enough for a specific tier on its own, I wouldn't have spent the rest of the post on other quotes.

So it’s functionally irrelevant to the argument, I presume?

Can we genuinely not do this shit? I disagree with you about whether quotes referring to something imply it's infinite-dimensional or completely dimensionally transcendent. I do not want to turn such a simple and ultimately meaningless discussion into the most annoying thing in the world.

Sure. But at least you could address the logic at hand and how the words are holistically used rather than isolating texts.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. The idea of change being illusion is indeed a substantial part of this discussion. "Change" is also not limited to just time (though this is one of the things explicitly called out as illusory), but the idea of self, substance, and our world as a whole. I don't know what you think I'm implying, but it's not as simple as "illusion = 1-A". This is meant to be looked at as a larger picture, as the Ultimate Void is repeatedly shown as more primal, beyond, and "outside" dimensioned space in a way that is different from merely being its apex.

To quote:

Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously.

Illusion specifically refers to the whole archetype which exists outside of—once again, specifically—limited dimensions, and thus has no change because it is encompasses all of the past, present, future simultaneously. Time is literally a derivative of you phenomenologically fragmenting the archetype one-by-one by limiting it in dimensions and timeframes.

The Archetype is not “limited” by dimensions, because it has them infinitely—or otherwise—limitlessly, and it is not bound by time, because it encompasses all timeframes simultaneously.

These statements are from The Whisperer in Darkness, are they not? Because the "Outer Ones" being referred to are the Mi-Go, not any of the mythos gods.

Pretty sure the usage of “Outside” is almost always in reference to the Ultimate Chaos and whatnot. And in that second scan, both the nature of the super-cosmos and of Azathoth are revealed simultaneously.

…and I started with loathing when told of the monstrous nuclear chaos beyond angled space which the Necronomicon had mercifully cloaked under the name of Azathoth.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

This seems to avoid my original point. I never implied that “we know” would refer to Yog as well. I’m saying that the verbiage of “being beyond dimensions” or the sort is used idiosyncratically.

When, specifically? As I mentioned, terms like "undimensioned" and "outside time and the dimensions we know" are used when referring to the realm of the Ancient Ones, but they are not the exact same terms as the Ultimate Void, nor do they have the same elaboration in the greater context of the story, with the latter being referred to with terms such as "where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute", "the space outside dimensions", and "outside space and time" (with no "that we know" qualifier). These are much more what-it-says-on-the-tin type statements than those given after the first gate.

This response is also unsubstantial. It’s pretty clear that the Void is much more transcendental. But I’m arguing that it’s in a quantitative sense, by virtue of it using the outer extension as a reference point.

As this is largely a matter of perspective, I'm obviously not going to tell you "No you're wrong", here. I just view the amount of times the void is treated as a completely transcendent, dimensionless place as notably outweighing those where it's suggested to be otherwise. Though considering you had stated you yourself were putting forth the idea of Low 1-A before, I really don't have nearly as much problem with that as a lower interpretation.

You spamming more buzzwords doesn’t rlly change the holistic meaning of the text.

I want a holistic view of how the Ultimate Void is treated in Lovecraft's body of work as a whole, which is the reason I brought up more stories than just TtGotSK, in the first place.

Once again, this misses the whole point of my entire comment. You can’t just spam buzzwords without understanding how they relate to the meaning of the text. Carter is outside of time there because he exists in a place which spans across all moments in time. So then, temporal progression is delimited, and so is change.

The text does not just say "outside time", but "outside space and time". I am saying that such wording implies he is not within an infinite-dimensional structure while in the Ultimate Void, as then he would not be "outside space". He'd just be in a different, higher part of space. Discussing what an exact quote means within the context it's used isn't "spamming buzzwords", though you are obviously free to disagree with my interpretation. We're discussing the fiction of a man who's been dead for 89 years, not hard science.

^ or it is outside of dimensions, because all things are limited in the fragmented finite dimensions. It’s pretty simple. Really.

Alternatively, it is exactly what it says it is and is outside of dimensions, period. I'm not sure why we now must write off every direct statement of something being beyond dimensions with a qualifier that is not in the text itself.

Also I noticed you ignored he scan I provided about Carter realizing there are infinite dimensions only after meeting Yog. Huh. Seems strange for that to be put in. It can’t be that infinity here is analogized to being outside of limited finitude, no?

You can assume that was his intent, sure. It's also the case that Lovecraft did not have a firm grasp on higher mathematics and was trying to convey the cosmic idea he wanted to put in his story through imperfect means. He was also writing in a world where these ideas were not at all widespread and had no idea people would attempt to put his creations into discrete categories for vs debating. So it is entirely possible that for him, there would functionally be absolutely zero difference between the two specific points we're arguing. Thus we can only go off the stuff he did write, and in TtGotSK:

1. He refers to the Ultimate Void as "the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute" and as "the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike".
2. He has the protagonist receive enlightenment from Yog-Sothoth, learning the true nature of reality and that higher dimensions extend "up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity".
3. Refers to the inhabitants of the void as "archetypal and eternal being(s) in the space outside dimensions" and "outside space and time".

So within the story itself, he establishes that the inhabitants of the ultimate void could be infinite-dimensional beings before then quickly reverting to language that suggests they're beyond dimensional limitations entirely. While I do agree that if this story is all we had to go on it'd basically be a toss up, I brought up the mentions of the Ultimate Void from other stories because to me, they make clear that his intent is for it to be a place beyond all dimensions, space, and time, or as he put it in The Dunwich Horror, "beyond all spheres of force and matter, space and time".

Is his language when doing this perfect? Hell no. But it is more consistent in its appearance than the ultimate void being the "highest point" of dimensional existence, so to speak.

Pretty sure the usage of “Outside” is almost always in reference to the Ultimate Chaos and whatnot. And in that second scan, both the nature of the super-cosmos and of Azathoth are revealed simultaneously.

It's more the nature of... a lot of things, actually. Azathoth gets a brief mention and the narrator was apparently "told of" him.

• "Never was a sane man more dangerously close to the arcana of basic entity—never was an organic brain nearer to utter annihilation in the chaos that transcends form and force and symmetry. I learned whence Cthulhu first came, and why half the great temporary stars of history had flared forth. I guessed—from hints which made even my informant pause timidly—the secret behind the Magellanic Clouds and globular nebulae, and the black truth veiled by the immemorial allegory of Tao. The nature of the Doels was plainly revealed, and I was told the essence (though not the source) of the Hounds of Tindalos. The legend of Yig, Father of Serpents, remained figurative no longer, and I started with loathing when told of the monstrous nuclear chaos beyond angled space which the Necronomicon had mercifully cloaked under the name of Azathoth. It was shocking to have the foulest nightmares of secret myth cleared up in concrete terms whose stark, morbid hatefulness exceeded the boldest hints of ancient and mediaeval mystics. Ineluctably I was led to believe that the first whisperers of these accursed tales must have had discourse with Akeley’s Outer Ones, and perhaps have visited outer cosmic realms as Akeley now proposed visiting them."

In regard to the Mi-Go, I believe that within the context of the story, "outside" is just used as a way to describe "everything beyond our known universe", in general.

• "There seemed to be an awful, immemorial linkage in several definite stages betwixt man and nameless infinity. The blasphemies which appeared on earth, it was hinted, came from the dark planet Yuggoth, at the rim of the solar system; but this was itself merely the populous outpost of a frightful interstellar race whose ultimate source must lie far outside even the Einsteinian space-time continuum or greatest known cosmos."

There is one particular weird moment here, though.

• "There are mighty cities on Yuggoth—great tiers of terraced towers built of black stone like the specimen I tried to send you. That came from Yuggoth. The sun shines there no brighter than a star, but the beings need no light. They have other, subtler senses, and put no windows in their great houses and temples. Light even hurts and hampers and confuses them, for it does not exist at all in the black cosmos outside time and space where they came from originally. To visit Yuggoth would drive any weak man mad—yet I am going there. The black rivers of pitch that flow under those mysterious Cyclopean bridges—things built by some elder race extinct and forgotten before the things came to Yuggoth from the ultimate voids—ought to be enough to make any man a Dante or Poe if he can keep sane long enough to tell what he has seen."

This is, to my knowledge, the only use of "ultimate voids" (plural) and seems completely different from the "ultimate abyss" mentioned in TtGotSK or "that ultimate void of Chaos" Azathoth is supposed to reside in, as we already know fungus aliens don't live in those. I admit that the terminology for this one is extremely weird though.

 

[Re5yh]

Aggree with thread

 

[SuperNova55555]

When, specifically? As I mentioned, terms like "undimensioned" and "outside time and the dimensions we know" are used when referring to the realm of the Ancient Ones, but they are not the exact same terms as the Ultimate Void, nor do they have the same elaboration in the greater context of the story, with the latter being referred to with terms such as "where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute", "the space outside dimensions", and "outside space and time" (with no "that we know" qualifier). These are much more what-it-says-on-the-tin type statements than those given after the first gate.

As this is largely a matter of perspective, I'm obviously not going to tell you "No you're wrong", here. I just view the amount of times the void is treated as a completely transcendent, dimensionless place as notably outweighing those where it's suggested to be otherwise. Though considering you had stated you yourself were putting forth the idea of Low 1-A before, I really don't have nearly as much problem with that as a lower interpretation.

I want a holistic view of how the Ultimate Void is treated in Lovecraft's body of work as a whole, which is the reason I brought up more stories than just TtGotSK, in the first place.

The text does not just say "outside time", but "outside space and time". I am saying that such wording implies he is not within an infinite-dimensional structure while in the Ultimate Void, as then he would not be "outside space". He'd just be in a different, higher part of space. Discussing what an exact quote means within the context it's used isn't "spamming buzzwords", though you are obviously free to disagree with my interpretation. We're discussing the fiction of a man who's been dead for 89 years, not hard science.

Alternatively, it is exactly what it says it is and is outside of dimensions, period. I'm not sure why we now must write off every direct statement of something being beyond dimensions with a qualifier that is not in the text itself.

You can assume that was his intent, sure. It's also the case that Lovecraft did not have a firm grasp on higher mathematics and was trying to convey the cosmic idea he wanted to put in his story through imperfect means. He was also writing in a world where these ideas were not at all widespread and had no idea people would attempt to put his creations into discrete categories for vs debating. So it is entirely possible that for him, there would functionally be absolutely zero difference between the two specific points we're arguing. Thus we can only go off the stuff he did write, and in TtGotSK:

1. He refers to the Ultimate Void as "the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute" and as "the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike".
2. He has the protagonist receive enlightenment from Yog-Sothoth, learning the true nature of reality and that higher dimensions extend "up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity".
3. Refers to the inhabitants of the void as "archetypal and eternal being(s) in the space outside dimensions" and "outside space and time".

So within the story itself, he establishes that the inhabitants of the ultimate void could be infinite-dimensional beings before then quickly reverting to language that suggests they're beyond dimensional limitations entirely. While I do agree that if this story is all we had to go on it'd basically be a toss up, I brought up the mentions of the Ultimate Void from other stories because to me, they make clear that his intent is for it to be a place beyond all dimensions, space, and time, or as he put it in The Dunwich Horror, "beyond all spheres of force and matter, space and time".

Is his language when doing this perfect? Hell no. But it is more consistent in its appearance than the ultimate void being the "highest point" of dimensional existence, so to speak.

It's more the nature of... a lot of things, actually. Azathoth gets a brief mention and the narrator was apparently "told of" him.

• "Never was a sane man more dangerously close to the arcana of basic entity—never was an organic brain nearer to utter annihilation in the chaos that transcends form and force and symmetry. I learned whence Cthulhu first came, and why half the great temporary stars of history had flared forth. I guessed—from hints which made even my informant pause timidly—the secret behind the Magellanic Clouds and globular nebulae, and the black truth veiled by the immemorial allegory of Tao. The nature of the Doels was plainly revealed, and I was told the essence (though not the source) of the Hounds of Tindalos. The legend of Yig, Father of Serpents, remained figurative no longer, and I started with loathing when told of the monstrous nuclear chaos beyond angled space which the Necronomicon had mercifully cloaked under the name of Azathoth. It was shocking to have the foulest nightmares of secret myth cleared up in concrete terms whose stark, morbid hatefulness exceeded the boldest hints of ancient and mediaeval mystics. Ineluctably I was led to believe that the first whisperers of these accursed tales must have had discourse with Akeley’s Outer Ones, and perhaps have visited outer cosmic realms as Akeley now proposed visiting them."

In regard to the Mi-Go, I believe that within the context of the story, "outside" is just used as a way to describe "everything beyond our known universe", in general.

• "There seemed to be an awful, immemorial linkage in several definite stages betwixt man and nameless infinity. The blasphemies which appeared on earth, it was hinted, came from the dark planet Yuggoth, at the rim of the solar system; but this was itself merely the populous outpost of a frightful interstellar race whose ultimate source must lie far outside even the Einsteinian space-time continuum or greatest known cosmos."

There is one particular weird moment here, though.

• "There are mighty cities on Yuggoth—great tiers of terraced towers built of black stone like the specimen I tried to send you. That came from Yuggoth. The sun shines there no brighter than a star, but the beings need no light. They have other, subtler senses, and put no windows in their great houses and temples. Light even hurts and hampers and confuses them, for it does not exist at all in the black cosmos outside time and space where they came from originally. To visit Yuggoth would drive any weak man mad—yet I am going there. The black rivers of pitch that flow under those mysterious Cyclopean bridges—things built by some elder race extinct and forgotten before the things came to Yuggoth from the ultimate voids—ought to be enough to make any man a Dante or Poe if he can keep sane long enough to tell what he has seen."

This is, to my knowledge, the only use of "ultimate voids" (plural) and seems completely different from the "ultimate abyss" mentioned in TtGotSK or "that ultimate void of Chaos" Azathoth is supposed to reside in, as we already know fungus aliens don't live in those. I admit that the terminology for this one is extremely weird though.

Yo, you can’t just basically concede to the fact that the text understands Yog as to be infinite-dimensional, and then go on to say that we should ignore it because the author might not have known how to convey his intentions lol.

And I just disagree with that in principle. Especially since I’m not sold at all in that logic. Lovecraft seems pretty aware of how he uses his analogies. As I’ve said, he seems very clear on the fact as to what he calls being “beyond something”, is to merely be “infinite in relation to that thing”. We can’t just… ignore this for powerscaling purposes. That seems absurd in my eyes.

Yog-Sothoth is beyond Space-Time… because he is beyond all finite modes of Space-Time. And he is beyond human conception… because human conception is a finite mode of thinking.

 

[KLOL506]

@DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Ultima_Reality @Planck69 @Elizhaa @Dereck03 @Maverick_Zero_X @Qawsedf234 @Firestorm808 @Celestial_Pegasus @Everything12

@Vietthai96 @Reiner04 @Theglassman12 @Random-Helper323 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless @Vietthai96 @Emirp sumitpo

Your input here would be appreciated.

 

[Random-Helper323]

What's needed here?

 

[Planck69]

What's needed here?

The current debate seems to be about whether a 1-A or Low 1-A rating is more valid for the Ultimate Void and its inhabitants. Anyone can correct me if I am wrong though.

Personally, I'm neutral leaning on agreeing with 1-A, but I'll wait for Azathoth's next response to be sure.

 

[SuperNova55555]

The current debate seems to be about whether a 1-A or Low 1-A rating is more valid for the Ultimate Void and its inhabitants. Anyone can correct me if I am wrong though.

No, it’s about whether or not Lovecraft uses something being beyond dimensions as being above all finite dimensions or dimensionality as a whole. Which determines whether it’s High 1-B or higher.

L1A was like mentioned once or twice the entire thread.

 

[Darksmash]

Just make tier 1 purely voting based at this point bro nobody reading these threads

 

[Planck69]

No, it’s about whether or not Lovecraft uses something being beyond dimensions as being above all finite dimensions or dimensionality as a whole. Which determines whether it’s High 1-B or higher.

L1A was like mentioned once or twice the entire thread.

I see. Well, I'll get back to waiting on Azzy to respond.

 

[THE_Ben_10_scaler]

Didn't even realize my account had been accepted to the forums?

I'm following but leaning to agree with OP; I don't see why we assume Archetypal Infinity must be in reference to the Supreme Archetype just because it uses the word "Archetypal." That just feels disingenuous given how nothing else implies Yog-Sothoth to be bound to space-time, and countless other statements explicitly portray the contrary

 

[SuperNova55555]

I don't see why we assume Archetypal Infinity must be in reference to the Supreme Archetype just because it uses the word "Archetypal."

You know it’s called “archetypal infinity”… in the section it’s explaining how Yog-Sothoth and the Abyss works… right?

Like, ignoring how it’s the most basic narrative analogy ever made that even a child could understand, you know it’s literally talking about Yog, right?

 

[Mbpoops]

Following

 

[THE_Ben_10_scaler]

You know it’s called “archetypal infinity”… in the section it’s explaining how Yog-Sothoth and the Abyss works… right?
you know it’s literally talking about Yog, right?

You do realize that not everything in this section is about Yog, right? Can your ahh just stop larping this 100 year old Verse already and focus on LoTM or smth?

The "Archetypal Infinity" stuff is just a follow up to this statement about the cosmos's inherent infinite dimensional nature, it ain't got shit to to do with Yog-Sothoth, it's just the Archetypes/Waves elaborating to Carter on their previous explanation of the cosmos:

The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shewn the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little gods of earth, with their petty, human interests and connexions—their hatreds, rages, loves, and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faith contrary to reason and Nature.

It's literally only 2 paragraph deeper into the story too, i don't know how you could miss ts my brotato chip, this also why it says "Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding," cuz it's just the waves further explaining it yo boi Carter:

The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shewn the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little gods of earth, with their petty, human interests and connexions—their hatreds, rages, loves, and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faith contrary to reason and Nature.
While most of the impressions translated themselves to Carter as words, there were others to which other senses gave interpretation. Perhaps with eyes and perhaps with imagination he perceived that he was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man. He saw now, in the brooding shadows of that which had been first a vortex of power and then an illimitable void, a sweep of creation that dizzied his senses. From some inconceivable vantage-point he looked upon prodigious forms whose multiple extensions transcended any conception of being, size, and boundaries which his mind had hitherto been able to hold, despite a lifetime of cryptical study. He began to understand dimly why there could exist at the same time the little boy Randolph Carter in the Arkham farmhouse in 1883, the misty form on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the First Gate, the fragment now facing the PRESENCE in the limitless abyss, and all the other “Carters” his fancy or perception envisaged.
Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.

Like, ignoring how it’s the most basic narrative analogy ever made that even a child could understand

Can you prove this instead of just fallaciously and baselessly treating your conclusion as if it was true?

Appeal to Common Sense:

Asserting that your conclusion or facts are just "common sense" when, in fact, they are not. We must argue as to why we believe something is common sense if there is any doubt that the belief is not common, rather than just asserting that it is. This is a more specific version of alleged certainty.

 

[SuperNova55555]

You do realize that not everything in this section is about Yog, right? Can your ahh just stop larping this 100 year old Verse already and focus on LoTM or smth?

The "Archetypal Infinity" stuff is just a follow up to this statement about the cosmos's inherent infinite dimensional nature, it ain't got shit to to do with Yog-Sothoth, it's just the Archetypes/Waves elaborating to Carter on their previous explanation of the cosmos:

It's literally only 2 paragraph deeper into the story too, i don't know how you could miss ts my brotato chip, this also why it says "Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding," cuz it's just the waves further explaining it yo boi Carter:


Can you prove this instead of just fallaciously and baselessly treating your conclusion as if it was true?

Rightttt.

After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles.

So when Lovecraft later elaborates that the fragmentation of the Archetype is done by “few-dimensioned beings”, surelyyyyyyyyyyyyy it can’t be that the earlier text about, ya know, archetypal infinity, made in the exact same section that explains the Archetype, that surelyyyy has nothing to do with Yog, or the Archetype. Completely irrelevant, yes. Mhm. It surelyyyyyyy has to be this section specifically, yes, this specific section in the entire chapter that is randomly unrelated to Yog. Lovecraft just felt like adding it for no reason and it’s totally holistically unrelated to all the previous context. Yes.

It doesn’t take even more than 2 braincells to make this connection. Because it’s not something you need to make a connection for. You literally realize this by just reading the text.

And like, don’t get me wrong, I don’t actually believe you don’t realize the relation here—it’s pretty obvious you’re just intentionally larping the wrong interpretation in order to elevate your powerscaling brainrot wank or whatever.

Embarrassing, really.

 

[THE_Ben_10_scaler]

Rightttt.

So when Lovecraft later elaborates that the fragmentation of the Archetype is done by “few-dimensioned beings”, surelyyyyyyyyyyyyy it can’t be that the earlier text about, ya know, archetypal infinity, made in the exact same section that explains the Archetype, that surelyyyy has nothing to do with Yog, or the Archetype. Completely irrelevant, yes. Mhm. It surelyyyyyyy has to be this section specifically, yes, this specific section in the entire chapter that is randomly unrelated to Yog. Lovecraft just felt like adding it for no reason and it’s totally holistically unrelated to all the previous context. Yes.

It doesn’t take even more than 2 braincells to make this connection. Because it’s not something you need to make a connection for. You literally realize this by just reading the text.

And like, don’t get me wrong, I don’t actually believe you don’t realize the relation here—it’s pretty obvious you’re just intentionally larping the wrong interpretation in order to elevate your powerscaling brainrot wank or whatever.

Embarrassing, really.

Vros jus typin shi

 

[THE_Ben_10_scaler]

Fr though, i’m at my grandparents so I ain’t got time for your whataboutism rn

 

[Mbpoops]

Lets not derail then folk

 

[SuperNova55555]

Vros jus typin shi

Fr though, i’m at my grandparents so I ain’t got time for your whataboutism rn

Basic reading of the text = whataboutism apparently

You know you’re not supposed to skew the meaning of the text so that it becomes unrecognizable from the author’s intent, right?

If only Lovecraft hadn’t analogized Yog as the pinnacle of dimensionality multiple times, then you may have been right.

 

[THE_Ben_10_scaler]

Rightttt.

So when Lovecraft later elaborates that the fragmentation of the Archetype is done by “few-dimensioned beings”, surelyyyyyyyyyyyyy it can’t be that the earlier text about, ya know, archetypal infinity, made in the exact same section that explains the Archetype, that surelyyyy has nothing to do with Yog, or the Archetype. Completely irrelevant, yes. Mhm. It surelyyyyyyy has to be this section specifically, yes, this specific section in the entire chapter that is randomly unrelated to Yog. Lovecraft just felt like adding it for no reason and it’s totally holistically unrelated to all the previous context. Yes.

It doesn’t take even more than 2 braincells to make this connection. Because it’s not something you need to make a connection for. You literally realize this by just reading the text.

And like, don’t get me wrong, I don’t actually believe you don’t realize the relation here—it’s pretty obvious you’re just intentionally larping the wrong interpretation in order to elevate your powerscaling brainrot wank or whatever.

Embarrassing, really.

You know? every time i read one of your replies i get reminded of this video, you just can't convince me that you yourself believe in a word from the slop you pump out as a reply

You ain't even trying to hide the fact that you're entire reply is complete red herring and doesn’t even try to engage with the substance of my argument, you just sorta reply anyways in the hope that no one calls you out for it (not that it will make much a difference since you’ll continue doing this regardless), anyone reading this can carefully go through the replies and decided for themselves if this is true since it doesn’t take too much to see it for it was given how blatant it is

But i’ll humor you and go along with your game anyways:

So when Lovecraft later elaborates that the fragmentation of the Archetype is done by “few-dimensioned beings”, surelyyyyyyyyyyyyy it can’t be that the earlier text about, ya know, archetypal infinity, made in the exact same section that explains the Archetype, that surelyyyy has nothing to do with Yog, or the Archetype. Completely irrelevant, yes. Mhm. It surelyyyyyyy has to be this section specifically, yes, this specific section in the entire chapter that is randomly unrelated to Yog. Lovecraft just felt like adding it for no reason and it’s totally holistically unrelated to all the previous context. Yes.

Brotha what?!?

Okay, i know i said i'd humor you, but i genuinely have no clue how this proves anything, i would say you're appealing to possibility but it's not even that given how nothing implies or gives even the merest hint that Lovecraft and Hoffmann's approach to the The One and The Many problem somehow connects to an earlier statement which i've shown to explicitly be about the cosmos (see my second reply), atp, you're just grasping at straws

Also, i know i've said this a lot, but next time, please actually address my argument or respectfully just sybau

And just a tip: screaming like a braindead monkey "That it's common sense" or "anyone with a brain would see that i'm right" or whateva doesn't make your non-existent argument more compelling, it's just corny af, lol

It doesn’t take even more than 2 braincells to make this connection. Because it’s not something you need to make a connection for. You literally realize this by just reading the text.

Like, ts GENUINELY gotta be the weakest insult oat

Anyways, i won't reply further to a MF who hasn't even been bothered to read the shit he's tryna scale, ig i'll see you on Easter Friday lil bro

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me from a glance.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

agree with 1A

 

[Planck69]

Took some more time to look at this and I'm finding myself agreeing with Azathoth for now.

 

[Vietthai96]

Magically read through this (hell) thread. Anyway, Low 1-A seems good to me, i can also get behind with Low 1-A, possibly 1-A. Some of Supernova argument do make sense to me. BDE Type 2 which is Low 1-A also implies undimensioned and beyond dimensions as well

 

[Planck69]

Everyone. Keep on topic.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Just call the only competent staff member on this wiki when it comes to 1-A and above, Ultima. Maybe he’ll bless us with his descent.

I disagree with the proposal due to Nova arguments.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

We have 3 staff approvals, do we need 4 for 1A?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Intended to reply yesterday but meds messed me up something fierce. Anyway, as opposed to replying in bits and pieces to everything, I'll try to give a reply that best presents the information I'm trying to convey, on its own. Especially since I don't know how often I'll be around.

A lot of the debate about whether the Ultimate Void is infinite-dimensional or completely dimensionally transcendent revolves around Through the Gates of the Silver Key, as the story likely contains the most explanation of Lovecraft's actual cosmology beyond vague prose. Because of that, I think it would be helpful to go through these quotes in the order they actually appear in the story and look at what they may suggest; I will mark quotes that suggest beyond-dimensional nature with B and ones that suggest infinite-dimensional nature as I, as acknowledging both gives us a better picture. Apologies ahead of time if I miss any.

Through the Gates of the Silver Key

B1: The first relevant quote about Randolph Carter's ultimate destination within the story describes it as a place where "all dimensions dissolve in the absolute", which is a clear suggestion of dimensional transcendence.

• "Was that stony bulge above the keystone of the imagined arch really a gigantic sculptured hand? Then he drew forth the Silver Key, and made motions and intonations whose source he could only dimly remember. Was anything forgotten? He knew only that he wished to cross the barrier to the untrammelled land of his dreams and the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute."

B2: Upon passing the first gate and entering the realm of the Ancient Ones, Randolph Carter passes to an extension of Earth that is beyond our world's "limited causation and tri-dimensional logic". This is impressive, but very different from what is described beyond the Ultimate Gate, which is "outside all earths, all universes, and all matter."

• "A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter."

Miscellaneous: Not about the Ultimate Gate but important to mention, there is a point where the world of the Ancient Ones is already described as "undimensioned". However, the very next sentence then qualifies this by saying the realm is "outside time and the dimensions we know", so this on its own should not be taken as a statement of dimensional transcendence for this extension of Earth.

• "Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."

Supporting-B: I will not count this as a beyond-dimensional quote on its own, but instead just something that could support that interpretation. In comparison to even the higher-dimensional and temporally transcendent realm of the Ancient Ones, what lies behind the Ultimate Gate is referred to as "utter and absolute Outsidedness with which the earth had nothing to do", suggesting a substantial difference in nature between the two.

• "Slowly there filtered into his mind the truth that this strange chanting ritual had been one of instruction, and that the Companions had been chanted by the Most Ancient One into a new and peculiar kind of sleep, in order that their dreams might open the Ultimate Gate to which the Silver Key was a passport. He knew that in the profundity of this deep sleep they were contemplating unplumbed vastnesses of utter and absolute Outsideness with which the earth had nothing to do, and that they were to accomplish that which his presence had demanded."

Miscellaneous: Not something that points one way or the other but which provides context that may be important, Carter stepping through the Ultimate Gate and having his sense of self destroyed, no longer being a "fixed point in the dimensional seething". The Carter experiencing the Ultimate Void is also confirmed to still be a "local manifestation" and not something intrinsically tied to it, for what it's worth.

• "And then, suddenly, he felt a greater terror than that which any of the Forms could give—a terror from which he could not flee because it was connected with himself. Even the First Gateway had taken something of stability from him, leaving him uncertain about his bodily form and about his relationship to the mistily defined objects around him, but it had not disturbed his sense of unity. He had still been Randolph Carter, a fixed point in the dimensional seething. Now, beyond the Ultimate Gateway, he realised in a moment of consuming fright that he was not one person, but many persons.
  
  
  He was in many places at the same time. On earth, on October 7, 1883, a little boy named Randolph Carter was leaving the Snake-Den in the hushed evening light and running down the rocky slope and through the twisted-boughed orchard toward his Uncle Christopher’s house in the hills beyond Arkham—yet at that same moment, which was also somehow in the earthly year of 1928, a vague shadow not less Randolph Carter was sitting on a pedestal among the Ancient Ones in earth’s trans-dimensional extension. Here, too, was a third Randolph Carter in the unknown and formless cosmic abyss beyond the Ultimate Gate. And elsewhere, in a chaos of scenes whose infinite multiplicity and monstrous diversity brought him close to the brink of madness, were a limitless confusion of beings which he knew were as much himself as the local manifestation now beyond the Ultimate Gate."

Supporting-I: Yog-Sothoth is said to be "coexistent with all time and coterminous with all space", suggesting it is linked to those things.

• "Then, in the midst of these devastating reflections, Carter’s beyond-the-gate fragment was hurled from what had seemed the nadir of horror to black, clutching pits of a horror still more profound. This time it was largely external—a force or personality which at once confronted and surrounded and pervaded him, and which in addition to its local presence, seemed also to be a part of himself, and likewise to be coexistent with all time and coterminous with all space. There was no visual image, yet the sense of entity and the awful concept of combined localism, identity, and infinity lent a paralysing terror beyond anything which any Carter-fragment had hitherto deemed capable of existing."

Supporting-B: Immediately after, Yog is then said to be allied to existence's ultimate animating essence, which "has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike." These statements present opposing interpretations within our tiering system, but that's largely because authors do not think within that framework... especially not ones who've been dead for roughly nine decades. So we just have to roll with the punches and find the most consistent idea presented.

• "In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike."

I1: Carter learns there are infinite higher dimensions, immediately after which the area around him is perceived through his imagination as "a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man", suggesting he is still within dimensional space to some degree.

• "The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shewn the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little gods of earth, with their petty, human interests and connexions—their hatreds, rages, loves, and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faith contrary to reason and Nature.
  
  
  While most of the impressions translated themselves to Carter as words, there were others to which other senses gave interpretation. Perhaps with eyes and perhaps with imagination he perceived that he was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man. He saw now, in the brooding shadows of that which had been first a vortex of power and then an illimitable void, a sweep of creation that dizzied his senses. From some inconceivable vantage-point he looked upon prodigious forms whose multiple extensions transcended any conception of being, size, and boundaries which his mind had hitherto been able to hold, despite a lifetime of cryptical study. He began to understand dimly why there could exist at the same time the little boy Randolph Carter in the Arkham farmhouse in 1883, the misty form on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the First Gate, the fragment now facing the PRESENCE in the limitless abyss, and all the other 'Carters' his fancy or perception envisaged."

I2: Carter's facet is referred to as an "infinitesimal part" of the entity before him as he learns how higher dimensions work.

• "Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity."

Miscellaneous: Quote about the nature of reality that's worth bringing up. It is vague if the "many-dimensioned original" is meant to refer to the world of the Ancient Ones or the Ultimate Void, as the first sentence is explicitly about "the world of men and of the gods" vs the "small wholeness" beyond the First Gate.

• "The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality."

Miscellaneous: All forms of change are merely illusions experienced by "beings in limited dimensions". This isn't really anything for the Ultimate Void on its own, but combined with the fact the world of the Ancient Ones is already stated repeatedly to exist outside of time, called a "small wholeness", and was referred to as this by Lovecraft, it's probably good support that the area beyond the First Gate is already infinite-dimensional.

• "Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously."

Miscellaneous: The nature of how true reality is divided into fractional parts is presented more as a limitation of "angles of consciousness" as opposed to a real or physical change. The entities beyond the Ultimate Gate instead "command all angles" and can view reality however they choose.

• "After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will."

B3: While this begins like a statement that would support the infinite-dimensional interpretation of the void, it then immediately goes on to say very directly that the archetypes exist "outside dimensions" (no qualifier), following the discussion of how infinite higher dimensions exist.

• "All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions."

B4: In the very next sentences, the archetypes are once again said to be "outside space and time", with more talk of how it's consciousness that divides the facets.

• "Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal 'Carter' outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case."

Supporting-B: Within the ultimate abyss, Carter is effectively "equidistant" from every facet of himself at any point in time and space, suggesting he is in a place that is completely apart from it.

• "While the silence still lasted, Randolph Carter radiated forth the thoughts and questions which assailed him. He knew that in this ultimate abyss he was equidistant from every facet of his archetype—human or non-human, earthly or extra-earthly, galactic or trans-galactic; and his curiosity regarding the other phases of his being—especially those phases which were farthest from an earthly 1928 in time and space, or which had most persistently haunted his dreams throughout life—was at fever heat. He felt that his archetypal ENTITY could at will send him bodily to any of these phases of bygone and distant life by changing his consciousness-plane, and despite the marvels he had undergone he burned for the further marvel of walking in the flesh through those grotesque and incredible scenes which visions of the night had fragmentarily brought him."

I believe these are all the relevant portions. The number of times the place beyond the Ultimate Gate is stated or suggested to be beyond dimensions outweigh the number of times suggesting it is still limited to an infinite-dimensional existence, with two direct quotes of being "outside dimensions" and "outside space and time" coming after this lengthy series of explanations. However, I do completely understand that within the story itself, this is still muddled enough that it could go one way or the other.

Which is why we need to look to other writings to see the big picture and examine what's been said before.

Other Sources

The place where Yog-Sothoth originates from is described as "beyond all spheres of force and matter, space and time."

• "Dr. Armitage, associating what he was reading with what he had heard of Dunwich and its brooding presences, and of Wilbur Whateley and his dim, hideous aura that stretched from a dubious birth to a cloud of probable matricide, felt a wave of fright as tangible as a draught of the tomb’s cold clamminess. The bent, goatish giant before him seemed like the spawn of another planet or dimension; like something only partly of mankind, and linked to black gulfs of essence and entity that stretch like titan phantasms beyond all spheres of force and matter, space and time." — The Dunwich Horror

The more profound and primal reality the narrator seeks to explore in Hypnos is stated to lie "deeper than matter, time, and space".

• "Of our studies it is impossible to speak, since they held so slight a connexion with anything of the world as living men conceive it. They were of that vaster and more appalling universe of dim entity and consciousness which lies deeper than matter, time, and space, and whose existence we suspect only in certain forms of sleep—those rare dreams beyond dreams which come never to common men, and but once or twice in the lifetime of imaginative men." — Hypnos

The void Azathoth inhabits is stated to be "past the bright clusters of dimensioned space", devoid of both time and matter and containing only "Chaos, without form or place."

• "Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,
  Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,
  Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,
  But only Chaos, without form or place.
  Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered
  Things he had dreamed but could not understand,
  While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered
  In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned." — Fungi from Yuggoth

It's definitely also worth mentioning that Through the Gates of the Silver Key isn't the only time Lovecraft lays out the existence of higher-dimensional reality, hence why I think there's an important distinction between things like "beyond time and space as we know it" and "beyond time and space" period. The Dreams in the Witch House goes into this quite a lot.

• "The dreams were wholly beyond the pale of sanity, and Gilman felt that they must be a result, jointly, of his studies in mathematics and in folklore. He had been thinking too much about the vague regions which his formulae told him must lie beyond the three dimensions we know, and about the possibility that old Keziah Mason—guided by some influence past all conjecture—had actually found the gate to those regions." — The Dreams in the Witch House

• "Such a step, he said, would require only two stages; first, a passage out of the three-dimensional sphere we know, and second, a passage back to the three-dimensional sphere at another point, perhaps one of infinite remoteness. That this could be accomplished without loss of life was in many cases conceivable. Any being from any part of three-dimensional space could probably survive in the fourth dimension; and its survival of the second stage would depend upon what alien part of three-dimensional space it might select for its re-entry. Denizens of some planets might be able to live on certain others—even planets belonging to other galaxies, or to similar-dimensional phases of other space-time continua—though of course there must be vast numbers of mutually uninhabitable even though mathematically juxtaposed bodies or zones of space.
  It was also possible that the inhabitants of a given dimensional realm could survive entry to many unknown and incomprehensible realms of additional or indefinitely multiplied dimensions—be they within or outside the given space-time continuum—and that the converse would be likewise true. This was a matter for speculation, though one could be fairly certain that the type of mutation involved in a passage from any given dimensional plane to the next higher plane would not be destructive of biological integrity as we understand it. Gilman could not be very clear about his reasons for this last assumption, but his haziness here was more than overbalanced by his clearness on other complex points." — The Dreams in the Witch House

• "In the deeper dreams everything was likewise more distinct, and Gilman felt that the twilight abysses around him were those of the fourth dimension. Those organic entities whose motions seemed least flagrantly irrelevant and unmotivated were probably projections of life-forms from our own planet, including human beings. What the others were in their own dimensional sphere or spheres he dared not try to think. Two of the less irrelevantly moving things—a rather large congeries of iridescent, prolately spheroidal bubbles and a very much smaller polyhedron of unknown colours and rapidly shifting surface angles—seemed to take notice of him and follow him about or float ahead as he changed position among the titan prisms, labyrinths, cube-and-plane clusters, and quasi-buildings; and all the while the vague shrieking and roaring waxed louder and louder, as if approaching some monstrous climax of utterly unendurable intensity." — The Dreams in the Witch House

• "There was a formula—a sort of list of things to say and do—which I recognised as something black and forbidden; something which I had read of before in furtive paragraphs of mixed abhorrence and fascination penned by those strange ancient delvers into the universe’s guarded secrets whose decaying texts I loved to absorb. It was a key—a guide—to certain gateways and transitions of which mystics have dreamed and whispered since the race was young, and which lead to freedoms and discoveries beyond the three dimensions and realms of life and matter that we know. Not for centuries had any man recalled its vital substance or known where to find it, but this book was very old indeed. No printing-press, but the hand of some half-crazed monk, had traced these ominous Latin phrases in uncials of awesome antiquity." — The Book (unfinished story)

• "To declare that we were not nervous on that rainy night of watching would be an exaggeration both gross and ridiculous. We were not, as I have said, in any sense childishly superstitious, but scientific study and reflection had taught us that the known universe of three dimensions embraces the merest fraction of the whole cosmos of substance and energy. In this case an overwhelming preponderance of evidence from numerous authentic sources pointed to the tenacious existence of certain forces of great power and, so far as the human point of view is concerned, exceptional malignancy. To say that we actually believed in vampires or werewolves would be a carelessly inclusive statement. Rather must it be said that we were not prepared to deny the possibility of certain unfamiliar and unclassified modifications of vital force and attenuated matter; existing very infrequently in three-dimensional space because of its more intimate connexion with other spatial units, yet close enough to the boundary of our own to furnish us occasional manifestations which we, for lack of a proper vantage-point, may never hope to understand." — The Shunned House

This is also a big part of The Hounds of Tindalos, and while this is a Lovecraft Circle story (written by Frank Belknap Long), Lovecraft clearly liked the idea and thought it was cohesive enough to slip a mention of the hounds into The Whisperer in Darkness.

• "'Time is merely our imperfect perception of a new dimension of space. Time and motion are both illusions. Everything that has existed from the beginning of the world exists now. Events that occurred centuries ago on this planet continue to exist in another dimension of space. Events that will occur centuries from now exist already. We cannot perceive their existence because we cannot enter the dimension of space that contains them. Human beings as we know them are merely fractions, infinitesimally small fractions of one enormous whole. Every human being is linked with all the life that has preceded him on this planet. All of his ancestors are parts of him. Only time separates him from his forebears, and time is an illusion and does not exist.'" — The Hounds of Tindalos

Azathoth

This is sort of a companion point to the stuff above, but I brought it up before and I absolutely think it's worth mentioning as probably the clearest example of transcendence over space-time. The second portion of Azathoth's section of Fungi from Yuggoth reads as follows:

• "They danced insanely to the high, thin whining
  Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,
  Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining
  Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law.
  'I am His Messenger,' the daemon said,
  As in contempt he struck his Master’s head."

Due to this being a short poem there's not a lot of explanation here, but what we're told at least amounts to the following: the "aimless waves" produced by the music and dancing of Azathoth, his court, or some combination of the two are the source of each cosmos' "eternal law". However, the nature of this brief bit of poetry is somewhat elaborated upon by another Lovecraft collaborator, Henry Kuttner, in his short story titled Hydra.

• "There was a certain spot Outside where Scott could achieve his desire. In that place thought was obscurely linked to energy and matter, because of an insane shrill piping (Ludwig said) that eternally filtered from beyond a veil of flickering colors. It was very near the Center, the Center of Chaos, where dwells Azathoth, the Lord of All Things. All that exists was created by the thoughts of Azathoth, and only in the Center of Ultimate Chaos could Scott find means to live again on earth in human form. There is an erasure in Edmond’s notes at this point, and it is only possible to make out the fragment: '. . . of thought made real.'"

Obviously, all that exists being the results of Azathoth's unconscious thoughts suggests a complete separation between it and the rest of reality. It probably created the other Ultimate Gods as well, though they also seem to play a part in forming reality based on the previous poem.

Now I do think it's worth repeating that Hydra is a Lovecraft Circle story as opposed to HPL's direct words, as well as being published about two years after his death. That said, Kuttner was a friend and collaborator who created multiple stories for the Mythos, and his vision of Azathoth does seem to line up with Lovecraft's intent. There's been much debate over the years whether "Lord of All" is just a title and if this family tree can be discarded completely due to the tongue-in-cheek nature of it. However, in one of Lovecraft's playful back and forth letters with Clark Ashton Smith from 1930, he is very explicit with his intent.

• "One very aged pontiff, upon whose forehead is branded a sign which no living man can interpret, & whose statements about his own length of years are wholly incredible, goes so far as to link the image with primal Azathoth, the mindless Lord of Nighted Chaos who is the father of all other horrors & is coeval with the Ultimate Abyss itself; but so audacious a guess is looked upon with fear by most of the priests, to whom even a faint thought of Azathoth is menacing & disquieting........"

With all this taken into account, I think it's fair to say Kuttner's portrayal of Azathoth as the ultimate creator deity does indeed align with Lovecraft's vision and should be usable, as should reality being Azathoth's thoughts.


I was going to say "That's all", but this ended up being way longer than I thought. Probably filled with typos I'm too lazy to check, right now.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Intended to reply yesterday but meds messed me up something fierce. Anyway, as opposed to replying in bits and pieces to everything, I'll try to give a reply that best presents the information I'm trying to convey, on its own. Especially since I don't know how often I'll be around.

A lot of the debate about whether the Ultimate Void is infinite-dimensional or completely dimensionally transcendent revolves around Through the Gates of the Silver Key, as the story likely contains the most explanation of Lovecraft's actual cosmology beyond vague prose. Because of that, I think it would be helpful to go through these quotes in the order they actually appear in the story and look at what they may suggest; I will mark quotes that suggest beyond-dimensional nature with B and ones that suggest infinite-dimensional nature as I, as acknowledging both gives us a better picture. Apologies ahead of time if I miss any.

Through the Gates of the Silver Key

B1: The first relevant quote about Randolph Carter's ultimate destination within the story describes it as a place where "all dimensions dissolve in the absolute", which is a clear suggestion of dimensional transcendence.

• "Was that stony bulge above the keystone of the imagined arch really a gigantic sculptured hand? Then he drew forth the Silver Key, and made motions and intonations whose source he could only dimly remember. Was anything forgotten? He knew only that he wished to cross the barrier to the untrammelled land of his dreams and the gulfs where all dimensions dissolve in the absolute."

B2: Upon passing the first gate and entering the realm of the Ancient Ones, Randolph Carter passes to an extension of Earth that is beyond our world's "limited causation and tri-dimensional logic". This is impressive, but very different from what is described beyond the Ultimate Gate, which is "outside all earths, all universes, and all matter."

• "A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter."

Miscellaneous: Not about the Ultimate Gate but important to mention, there is a point where the world of the Ancient Ones is already described as "undimensioned". However, the very next sentence then qualifies this by saying the realm is "outside time and the dimensions we know", so this on its own should not be taken as a statement of dimensional transcendence for this extension of Earth.

• "Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know."

Supporting-B: I will not count this as a beyond-dimensional quote on its own, but instead just something that could support that interpretation. In comparison to even the higher-dimensional and temporally transcendent realm of the Ancient Ones, what lies behind the Ultimate Gate is referred to as "utter and absolute Outsidedness with which the earth had nothing to do", suggesting a substantial difference in nature between the two.

• "Slowly there filtered into his mind the truth that this strange chanting ritual had been one of instruction, and that the Companions had been chanted by the Most Ancient One into a new and peculiar kind of sleep, in order that their dreams might open the Ultimate Gate to which the Silver Key was a passport. He knew that in the profundity of this deep sleep they were contemplating unplumbed vastnesses of utter and absolute Outsideness with which the earth had nothing to do, and that they were to accomplish that which his presence had demanded."

Miscellaneous: Not something that points one way or the other but which provides context that may be important, Carter stepping through the Ultimate Gate and having his sense of self destroyed, no longer being a "fixed point in the dimensional seething". The Carter experiencing the Ultimate Void is also confirmed to still be a "local manifestation" and not something intrinsically tied to it, for what it's worth.

• "And then, suddenly, he felt a greater terror than that which any of the Forms could give—a terror from which he could not flee because it was connected with himself. Even the First Gateway had taken something of stability from him, leaving him uncertain about his bodily form and about his relationship to the mistily defined objects around him, but it had not disturbed his sense of unity. He had still been Randolph Carter, a fixed point in the dimensional seething. Now, beyond the Ultimate Gateway, he realised in a moment of consuming fright that he was not one person, but many persons.
  
  
  He was in many places at the same time. On earth, on October 7, 1883, a little boy named Randolph Carter was leaving the Snake-Den in the hushed evening light and running down the rocky slope and through the twisted-boughed orchard toward his Uncle Christopher’s house in the hills beyond Arkham—yet at that same moment, which was also somehow in the earthly year of 1928, a vague shadow not less Randolph Carter was sitting on a pedestal among the Ancient Ones in earth’s trans-dimensional extension. Here, too, was a third Randolph Carter in the unknown and formless cosmic abyss beyond the Ultimate Gate. And elsewhere, in a chaos of scenes whose infinite multiplicity and monstrous diversity brought him close to the brink of madness, were a limitless confusion of beings which he knew were as much himself as the local manifestation now beyond the Ultimate Gate."

Supporting-I: Yog-Sothoth is said to be "coexistent with all time and coterminous with all space", suggesting it is linked to those things.

• "Then, in the midst of these devastating reflections, Carter’s beyond-the-gate fragment was hurled from what had seemed the nadir of horror to black, clutching pits of a horror still more profound. This time it was largely external—a force or personality which at once confronted and surrounded and pervaded him, and which in addition to its local presence, seemed also to be a part of himself, and likewise to be coexistent with all time and coterminous with all space. There was no visual image, yet the sense of entity and the awful concept of combined localism, identity, and infinity lent a paralysing terror beyond anything which any Carter-fragment had hitherto deemed capable of existing."

Supporting-B: Immediately after, Yog is then said to be allied to existence's ultimate animating essence, which "has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike." These statements present opposing interpretations within our tiering system, but that's largely because authors do not think within that framework... especially not ones who've been dead for roughly nine decades. So we just have to roll with the punches and find the most consistent idea presented.

• "In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike."

I1: Carter learns there are infinite higher dimensions, immediately after which the area around him is perceived through his imagination as "a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man", suggesting he is still within dimensional space to some degree.

• "The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shewn the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little gods of earth, with their petty, human interests and connexions—their hatreds, rages, loves, and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faith contrary to reason and Nature.
  
  
  While most of the impressions translated themselves to Carter as words, there were others to which other senses gave interpretation. Perhaps with eyes and perhaps with imagination he perceived that he was in a region of dimensions beyond those conceivable to the eye and brain of man. He saw now, in the brooding shadows of that which had been first a vortex of power and then an illimitable void, a sweep of creation that dizzied his senses. From some inconceivable vantage-point he looked upon prodigious forms whose multiple extensions transcended any conception of being, size, and boundaries which his mind had hitherto been able to hold, despite a lifetime of cryptical study. He began to understand dimly why there could exist at the same time the little boy Randolph Carter in the Arkham farmhouse in 1883, the misty form on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the First Gate, the fragment now facing the PRESENCE in the limitless abyss, and all the other 'Carters' his fancy or perception envisaged."

I2: Carter's facet is referred to as an "infinitesimal part" of the entity before him as he learns how higher dimensions work.

• "Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity."

Miscellaneous: Quote about the nature of reality that's worth bringing up. It is vague if the "many-dimensioned original" is meant to refer to the world of the Ancient Ones or the Ultimate Void, as the first sentence is explicitly about "the world of men and of the gods" vs the "small wholeness" beyond the First Gate.

• "The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality."

Miscellaneous: All forms of change are merely illusions experienced by "beings in limited dimensions". This isn't really anything for the Ultimate Void on its own, but combined with the fact the world of the Ancient Ones is already stated repeatedly to exist outside of time, called a "small wholeness", and was referred to as this by Lovecraft, it's probably good support that the area beyond the First Gate is already infinite-dimensional.

• "Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously."

Miscellaneous: The nature of how true reality is divided into fractional parts is presented more as a limitation of "angles of consciousness" as opposed to a real or physical change. The entities beyond the Ultimate Gate instead "command all angles" and can view reality however they choose.

• "After an impressive pause the waves continued, saying that what the denizens of few-dimensioned zones call change is merely a function of their consciousness, which views the external world from various cosmic angles. As the shapes produced by the cutting of a cone seem to vary with the angles of cutting—being circle, ellipse, parabola, or hyperbola according to that angle, yet without any change in the cone itself—so do the local aspects of an unchanged and endless reality seem to change with the cosmic angle of regarding. To this variety of angles of consciousness the feeble beings of the inner worlds are slaves, since with rare exceptions they cannot learn to control them. Only a few students of forbidden things have gained inklings of this control, and have thereby conquered time and change. But the entities outside the Gates command all angles, and view the myriad parts of the cosmos in terms of fragmentary, change-involving perspective, or of the changeless totality beyond perspective, in accordance with their will."

B3: While this begins like a statement that would support the infinite-dimensional interpretation of the void, it then immediately goes on to say very directly that the archetypes exist "outside dimensions" (no qualifier), following the discussion of how infinite higher dimensions exist.

• "All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions."

B4: In the very next sentences, the archetypes are once again said to be "outside space and time", with more talk of how it's consciousness that divides the facets.

• "Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal 'Carter' outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case."

Supporting-B: Within the ultimate abyss, Carter is effectively "equidistant" from every facet of himself at any point in time and space, suggesting he is in a place that is completely apart from it.

• "While the silence still lasted, Randolph Carter radiated forth the thoughts and questions which assailed him. He knew that in this ultimate abyss he was equidistant from every facet of his archetype—human or non-human, earthly or extra-earthly, galactic or trans-galactic; and his curiosity regarding the other phases of his being—especially those phases which were farthest from an earthly 1928 in time and space, or which had most persistently haunted his dreams throughout life—was at fever heat. He felt that his archetypal ENTITY could at will send him bodily to any of these phases of bygone and distant life by changing his consciousness-plane, and despite the marvels he had undergone he burned for the further marvel of walking in the flesh through those grotesque and incredible scenes which visions of the night had fragmentarily brought him."

I believe these are all the relevant portions. The number of times the place beyond the Ultimate Gate is stated or suggested to be beyond dimensions outweigh the number of times suggesting it is still limited to an infinite-dimensional existence, with two direct quotes of being "outside dimensions" and "outside space and time" coming after this lengthy series of explanations. However, I do completely understand that within the story itself, this is still muddled enough that it could go one way or the other.

Which is why we need to look to other writings to see the big picture and examine what's been said before.

Other Sources

The place where Yog-Sothoth originates from is described as "beyond all spheres of force and matter, space and time."

• "Dr. Armitage, associating what he was reading with what he had heard of Dunwich and its brooding presences, and of Wilbur Whateley and his dim, hideous aura that stretched from a dubious birth to a cloud of probable matricide, felt a wave of fright as tangible as a draught of the tomb’s cold clamminess. The bent, goatish giant before him seemed like the spawn of another planet or dimension; like something only partly of mankind, and linked to black gulfs of essence and entity that stretch like titan phantasms beyond all spheres of force and matter, space and time." — The Dunwich Horror

The more profound and primal reality the narrator seeks to explore in Hypnos is stated to lie "deeper than matter, time, and space".

• "Of our studies it is impossible to speak, since they held so slight a connexion with anything of the world as living men conceive it. They were of that vaster and more appalling universe of dim entity and consciousness which lies deeper than matter, time, and space, and whose existence we suspect only in certain forms of sleep—those rare dreams beyond dreams which come never to common men, and but once or twice in the lifetime of imaginative men." — Hypnos

The void Azathoth inhabits is stated to be "past the bright clusters of dimensioned space", devoid of both time and matter and containing only "Chaos, without form or place."

• "Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,
  Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,
  Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,
  But only Chaos, without form or place.
  Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered
  Things he had dreamed but could not understand,
  While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered
  In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned." — Fungi from Yuggoth

It's definitely also worth mentioning that Through the Gates of the Silver Key isn't the only time Lovecraft lays out the existence of higher-dimensional reality, hence why I think there's an important distinction between things like "beyond time and space as we know it" and "beyond time and space" period. The Dreams in the Witch House goes into this quite a lot.

• "The dreams were wholly beyond the pale of sanity, and Gilman felt that they must be a result, jointly, of his studies in mathematics and in folklore. He had been thinking too much about the vague regions which his formulae told him must lie beyond the three dimensions we know, and about the possibility that old Keziah Mason—guided by some influence past all conjecture—had actually found the gate to those regions." — The Dreams in the Witch House

• "Such a step, he said, would require only two stages; first, a passage out of the three-dimensional sphere we know, and second, a passage back to the three-dimensional sphere at another point, perhaps one of infinite remoteness. That this could be accomplished without loss of life was in many cases conceivable. Any being from any part of three-dimensional space could probably survive in the fourth dimension; and its survival of the second stage would depend upon what alien part of three-dimensional space it might select for its re-entry. Denizens of some planets might be able to live on certain others—even planets belonging to other galaxies, or to similar-dimensional phases of other space-time continua—though of course there must be vast numbers of mutually uninhabitable even though mathematically juxtaposed bodies or zones of space.
  It was also possible that the inhabitants of a given dimensional realm could survive entry to many unknown and incomprehensible realms of additional or indefinitely multiplied dimensions—be they within or outside the given space-time continuum—and that the converse would be likewise true. This was a matter for speculation, though one could be fairly certain that the type of mutation involved in a passage from any given dimensional plane to the next higher plane would not be destructive of biological integrity as we understand it. Gilman could not be very clear about his reasons for this last assumption, but his haziness here was more than overbalanced by his clearness on other complex points." — The Dreams in the Witch House

• "In the deeper dreams everything was likewise more distinct, and Gilman felt that the twilight abysses around him were those of the fourth dimension. Those organic entities whose motions seemed least flagrantly irrelevant and unmotivated were probably projections of life-forms from our own planet, including human beings. What the others were in their own dimensional sphere or spheres he dared not try to think. Two of the less irrelevantly moving things—a rather large congeries of iridescent, prolately spheroidal bubbles and a very much smaller polyhedron of unknown colours and rapidly shifting surface angles—seemed to take notice of him and follow him about or float ahead as he changed position among the titan prisms, labyrinths, cube-and-plane clusters, and quasi-buildings; and all the while the vague shrieking and roaring waxed louder and louder, as if approaching some monstrous climax of utterly unendurable intensity." — The Dreams in the Witch House

• "There was a formula—a sort of list of things to say and do—which I recognised as something black and forbidden; something which I had read of before in furtive paragraphs of mixed abhorrence and fascination penned by those strange ancient delvers into the universe’s guarded secrets whose decaying texts I loved to absorb. It was a key—a guide—to certain gateways and transitions of which mystics have dreamed and whispered since the race was young, and which lead to freedoms and discoveries beyond the three dimensions and realms of life and matter that we know. Not for centuries had any man recalled its vital substance or known where to find it, but this book was very old indeed. No printing-press, but the hand of some half-crazed monk, had traced these ominous Latin phrases in uncials of awesome antiquity." — The Book (unfinished story)

• "To declare that we were not nervous on that rainy night of watching would be an exaggeration both gross and ridiculous. We were not, as I have said, in any sense childishly superstitious, but scientific study and reflection had taught us that the known universe of three dimensions embraces the merest fraction of the whole cosmos of substance and energy. In this case an overwhelming preponderance of evidence from numerous authentic sources pointed to the tenacious existence of certain forces of great power and, so far as the human point of view is concerned, exceptional malignancy. To say that we actually believed in vampires or werewolves would be a carelessly inclusive statement. Rather must it be said that we were not prepared to deny the possibility of certain unfamiliar and unclassified modifications of vital force and attenuated matter; existing very infrequently in three-dimensional space because of its more intimate connexion with other spatial units, yet close enough to the boundary of our own to furnish us occasional manifestations which we, for lack of a proper vantage-point, may never hope to understand." — The Shunned House

This is also a big part of The Hounds of Tindalos, and while this is a Lovecraft Circle story (written by Frank Belknap Long), Lovecraft clearly liked the idea and thought it was cohesive enough to slip a mention of the hounds into The Whisperer in Darkness.

• "'Time is merely our imperfect perception of a new dimension of space. Time and motion are both illusions. Everything that has existed from the beginning of the world exists now. Events that occurred centuries ago on this planet continue to exist in another dimension of space. Events that will occur centuries from now exist already. We cannot perceive their existence because we cannot enter the dimension of space that contains them. Human beings as we know them are merely fractions, infinitesimally small fractions of one enormous whole. Every human being is linked with all the life that has preceded him on this planet. All of his ancestors are parts of him. Only time separates him from his forebears, and time is an illusion and does not exist.'" — The Hounds of Tindalos

Azathoth

This is sort of a companion point to the stuff above, but I brought it up before and I absolutely think it's worth mentioning as probably the clearest example of transcendence over space-time. The second portion of Azathoth's section of Fungi from Yuggoth reads as follows:

• "They danced insanely to the high, thin whining
  Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,
  Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining
  Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law.
  'I am His Messenger,' the daemon said,
  As in contempt he struck his Master’s head."

Due to this being a short poem there's not a lot of explanation here, but what we're told at least amounts to the following: the "aimless waves" produced by the music and dancing of Azathoth, his court, or some combination of the two are the source of each cosmos' "eternal law". However, the nature of this brief bit of poetry is somewhat elaborated upon by another Lovecraft collaborator, Henry Kuttner, in his short story titled Hydra.

• "There was a certain spot Outside where Scott could achieve his desire. In that place thought was obscurely linked to energy and matter, because of an insane shrill piping (Ludwig said) that eternally filtered from beyond a veil of flickering colors. It was very near the Center, the Center of Chaos, where dwells Azathoth, the Lord of All Things. All that exists was created by the thoughts of Azathoth, and only in the Center of Ultimate Chaos could Scott find means to live again on earth in human form. There is an erasure in Edmond’s notes at this point, and it is only possible to make out the fragment: '. . . of thought made real.'"

Obviously, all that exists being the results of Azathoth's unconscious thoughts suggests a complete separation between it and the rest of reality. It probably created the other Ultimate Gods as well, though they also seem to play a part in forming reality based on the previous poem.

Now I do think it's worth repeating that Hydra is a Lovecraft Circle story as opposed to HPL's direct words, as well as being published about two years after his death. That said, Kuttner was a friend and collaborator who created multiple stories for the Mythos, and his vision of Azathoth does seem to line up with Lovecraft's intent. There's been much debate over the years whether "Lord of All" is just a title and if this family tree can be discarded completely due to the tongue-in-cheek nature of it. However, in one of Lovecraft's playful back and forth letters with Clark Ashton Smith from 1930, he is very explicit with his intent.

• "One very aged pontiff, upon whose forehead is branded a sign which no living man can interpret, & whose statements about his own length of years are wholly incredible, goes so far as to link the image with primal Azathoth, the mindless Lord of Nighted Chaos who is the father of all other horrors & is coeval with the Ultimate Abyss itself; but so audacious a guess is looked upon with fear by most of the priests, to whom even a faint thought of Azathoth is menacing & disquieting........"

With all this taken into account, I think it's fair to say Kuttner's portrayal of Azathoth as the ultimate creator deity does indeed align with Lovecraft's vision and should be usable, as should reality being Azathoth's thoughts.


I was going to say "That's all", but this ended up being way longer than I thought. Probably filled with typos I'm too lazy to check, right now.

This is a very cohesive post about laying it all out yea, tho I will add:

"has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike."

This part wouldn’t be “Supporting-B”, since it’s js another fancy way of restating the fact that Yog-Sothoth is not bound to any one particular place, but instead encompasses the entirety of the universe across all spaces and times:

likewise to be coexistent with all time and coterminous with all space.

not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum

Also, I wasn’t aware of this statement before:

This is also a big part of The Hounds of Tindalos, and while this is a Lovecraft Circle story (written by Frank Belknap Long), Lovecraft clearly liked the idea and thought it was cohesive enough to slip a mention of the hounds into The Whisperer in Darkness.

• "'Time is merely our imperfect perception of a new dimension of space. Time and motion are both illusions. Everything that has existed from the beginning of the world exists now. Events that occurred centuries ago on this planet continue to exist in another dimension of space. Events that will occur centuries from now exist already. We cannot perceive their existence because we cannot enter the dimension of space that contains them. Human beings as we know them are merely fractions, infinitesimally small fractions of one enormous whole. Every human being is linked with all the life that has preceded him on this planet. All of his ancestors are parts of him. Only time separates him from his forebears, and time is an illusion and does not exist.'" — The Hounds of Tindalos

But this is literally what the Archetype/Yog is. Just, as it is quoted, an “enormous whole”. And all the other descriptions about time, illusion, change, dimensions etc. are the exact same ones in TTGOTSK.

Obviously, I don’t need to mention, but a whole of lesser things is exactly what 1-A is not supposed to be.

 

[Kebabbaro.1]

This is also a big part of The Hounds of Tindalos, and while this is a Lovecraft Circle story (written by Frank Belknap Long), Lovecraft clearly liked the idea and thought it was cohesive enough to slip a mention of the hounds into The Whisperer in Darkness.

• "'Time is merely our imperfect perception of a new dimension of space. Time and motion are both illusions. Everything that has existed from the beginning of the world exists now. Events that occurred centuries ago on this planet continue to exist in another dimension of space. Events that will occur centuries from now exist already. We cannot perceive their existence because we cannot enter the dimension of space that contains them. Human beings as we know them are merely fractions, infinitesimally small fractions of one enormous whole. Every human being is linked with all the life that has preceded him on this planet. All of his ancestors are parts of him. Only time separates him from his forebears, and time is an illusion and does not exist.'" — The Hounds of Tindalos

Actually the knowledge you quote in that very story Is outdated/incomplete cuz later Chalmers claims that not only time but also space Is an illusion of the higher reality(Just saying cuz It helps your point).

" Chalmers smiled wanly. "I know that you think me insane," he said. "You have a shrewd but prosaic mind, and you can not conceive of an entity that does not depend for its existence on force and matter. But did it ever occur to you, my friend, that force and matter are merely the barriers to perception imposed by time and space? When one knows, as I do, that time and space are identical and that they are both deceptive because they are merely imperfect manifestations of a higher reality, one no longer seeks in the visible world for an explanation of the mystery and terror of being."

Anyway, this Will be my only comment in the thread, I just came here to be the nerd of the situationbye

 

[Antvasima]

@Ultima_Reality

What do you think about this? By my experiences, Azathoth (the former bureaucrat) is usually sensible and reliable.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Following.

 

[Apotheosis69]

Planning to do a re-read of Lovecraft's fiction soon, so I'll see if my opinion changes on anything.

Wish you the absolute best for it. Lovecraft needs a MASSIVE revision

 

[Antvasima]

I asked Ultima to help out here again.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I was going to briefly pop in and apologize for not being able to be here for a long time and probably still not being able to be here with any level of consistency, but considering nothing has happened since I left, I don't feel that bad. lol

Wish you the absolute best for it. Lovecraft needs a MASSIVE revision

Yeah. Another part of the problem is that Lovecraft's "canon" is not just... Lovecraft. Works written by his friends and fellow contributors were typically considered as much part of the mythos as his own stories, by the man himself. Lovecraft's The Haunter of the Dark is a sequel to The Shambler from the Stars, which was written by Robert Bloch. Frank Belknap Long wrote The Hounds of Tindalos before Lovecraft name-dropped its eponymous monsters in The Whisperer in Darkness. Robert E. Howard's The Shadow Kingdom is both a Kull of Atlantis story and a Lovecraft Circle story, as it's the origin of the Serpent Men that would go on to be mentioned in works by Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith.

Not everything that was written by the Lovecraft Circle members is part of the mythos (Psycho is obviously not a mythos story just because it was written by Robert Bloch) and there are some cases where they are notably not within the same setting (much of Derleth's work after Lovecraft's passing is so different from everything else that it's incompatible and frequently considered a different mythos, altogether), but there are quite a few non-Lovecraft stories that are either indisputably canon or have more reason than not to be considered so. A lot of these probably haven't been considered, analyzed, or applied to the verse simply because they're not as easy to find or well known as the work of Lovecraft himself.

 

[Antvasima]

@Planck69 @Ultima_Reality @Elizhaa @Emirp sumitpo @IdiosyncraticLawyer

What do you think about this?