azontr
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Yu's dura neg isn't infallible in this key, he only becomes able to do stuff like ignore defenses in his later keys. It's an advantage still but try not to spread misinfo.
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Rematch: The Perfect Human vs The Greatest Boxer (10-16-0) *GRACE*
- Thread starter DeltaStriker22
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He wrote that if the technique is better, then the output is also higher. Likely because a properly executed technique lets less energy go to waste, and uses it all. Not that you can create energy out of nowhere.
azontr
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He wrote that technique amplifies the natural abilities of one's physique. If you apply proper technique then you can obviously produce explosive effects with less energy exertion. I don't really understand your point here.
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Well it’s never gonna be added Baka!I literally said nobody added it to the profiles
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I vote for Ayanokouji. Far smarter and experienced in combat as he grew up since age 4 fighting Olympic level to pro martial artist including boxers all the way up until he left the white room which makes it over 10+ years of non stop combat experience from different fighting styles and muscle memory where as Yu only has combat experience in boxing. Ayanokouji would recognize Yu's lack of experience against high level kicks and only having elite upper body defense would exploit this. I know he blocked a kick from Santorino but that's not an elite martial artist who can kick without telegraphing. Feints, change of direction kicks or flying kicks etc. Yu has no answer for this and whatever counter I believe he comes up with would be predicted by Ayanokouji and he would adjust to it.
My vote is for Ayanokouji, unless someone already spoke against these points and they got invalidated, a lot of stuff is still missing from Kouji page but I still vote for him f
My vote is for Ayanokouji, unless someone already spoke against these points and they got invalidated, a lot of stuff is still missing from Kouji page but I still vote for him f
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Ayanokoji fra
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[Yu FRA]
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Who said this match was a stomp again? (Though I won't lie, didn't think it would be this close)
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7-7 with Zefra
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Counted.
azontr
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They have been spoken against. The experience argument has already been addressed several times and it's getting silly atp— Yu was already at his level of skill since the beginning of his life without needing to train, and grows constantly without the need to apply himself, so going up against elite fighters or training for long periods of time is irrelevant against him since he's skilled even without a specialized training regimen. And canonically he can master any sport or physical action even if it's not Boxing, so his experience wouldn't limit him, even if he couldn't avoid kicks, he would just see one and immediately adapt to it; whatever Kouji throws at him, even if he hypothetically can't counter it, will just add to his skillset. His perception and reaction speed is also so much higher than Kouji's that he would never fall for a feint, and to begin with he would just predict Kouji's moves since Kouji has no resistance to this while Yu does.
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If he were to get hit, he would get heavily staggered
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Counted.
azontr
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Key word, if.
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That's a great point but Ayanokouji had people like this around him like Shiro, who was also a prodigy and would beat Koji routinely until Kouji would adapt to the fighting style itself and no longer lose. I'm not doubting Yu is talented in just saying I haven't seen him do anything Koji couldn't counter as he memorized every boxing style from iron mike peekaboo, Tommy Hearns hitman style etc. I don't think it would take long for Kouji to adapt to Yu's boxing style because he likely has seen something similar, this isn't a normally trained kid, he has a lifetime of experience in 17 years, which is a direct quote.
But this kind of leans into my point. He isn't dealing with a typical genius or prodigy. Koji is 1 of 1. This is a once in humanity type of genius with a perfect memory recall, Yu would master it but I don't see him having an answer to someone who would already know the outcome or counter to every strike he throws. He is similar to Kiruma Souichi in that sense
But how can we say he can predict Ayanokouji when all of his prediction feats are boxing based? Ayanokouji basically knows every traditional martial arts style and is technical, so he would likely use the fighting style boxing is weak against and if Yu has no experience predicting a fighting style he has no feats against I don't see a way he can win.
I still vote Kouji for now I'll wait for more members. I'm enjoying this matchup
azontr
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That's not the same thing as Yu, though. Yu isn't just a prodigy, he's the most skilled Boxer in history simply naturally. He saw a single one-two punch and immediately became a master of the style and doesn't even HAVE to train to make incredible strides in skill, he doesn't need to apply himself, he just grows naturally without end. Being a simple prodigy or genius isn't enough to be a match for Yu, because even in story, geniuses are people who can supersede decades of training and practice with none of their own, even the lowest rung of the ladder can do this, and Yu is several dimensions above them. Experience simply does not matter against him because of his sheer talent and his style can change at the drop of a hat, so having prior knowledge on Boxing does nothing against him.
That doesn't lean into your point at all, though. So far, all you've really given me are statements and vague feats of him defeating other prodigies, but Yu explicitly can reach a level of skill that is, by feats, beyond Kouji and he doesn't even need experience or training. Having perfect memory recall isn't really much in comparison to being so skilled you can control your body on a cellular level to achieve perfect technique.
That's not how that works. Yu's analytical prediction works via analysis of bodily functions like muscle movements, blood flow, heart beat, and even neural activity. No matter what style Kouji uses, he's still ultimately made of flesh, his physiological tells beyond mental habits will still allow Yu to predict his attacks. Again, Yu's talent doesn't just apply to Boxing, he can be the best in any sport and any discipline, his athletic ability encompasses physical movement generally, so the only reason he's limited to using Boxing isn't because he can only master Boxing, but because it's the only style he was taught. But all he would need to instantly adapt and become as skilled as he is in Boxing in any other style is for Kouji to use a single move and then he's never going to hit Yu with it again.
Not to mention, even if we assume Yu can't hypothetically predict Kouji (he can), the perception diff means he doesn't need to since he's seeing Kouji as basically frozen the entire time.
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Bruh, i didn't expect this matchup to be heated, turned out it wasn't a stomp after all despite the tiering different
Convince me how would Yu bypass Ayanokoji dura and stamina besides all of the skill slop he has, I'm too lazy and illiterate to read the whole thread
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Doesn't start with that, and by the time he does he might already be or almost winded outYu just cuts him with one of his weird hyper-precise slashing punches and let's him bleed out, gg
azontr
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He can determine the approximate toughness/weakness of material even through clothing so knowing Kouji is as durable as he is, there's no reason he wouldn't start with it or mix it into his regular blows. It's also not an ability that Yu needs to activate, it happens when he throws glancing blows, so if you wanna assume Kouji is skilled or fast enough to partially dodge, he'd still get cut.
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Ayanokouji would be well capable of blocking/parrying or dodge, and even then, those grazes if you go basing off on Taker, they are too shallow to cause anything major otherwise the medic would've already called off the match on the SEVERAL cuts bro hadHe can determine the approximate toughness/weakness of material even through clothing so knowing Kouji is as durable as he is, there's no reason he wouldn't start with it or mix it into his regular blows. It's also not an ability that Yu needs to activate, it happens when he throws glancing blows, so if you wanna assume Kouji is skilled or fast enough to partially dodge, he'd still get cut.
azontr
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If he parries he'd still get cut. Yu was also holding back against Taker and purposely avoiding cutting any vital areas because he was under orders to keep him alive and toy with him. Taker only suffered face cuts, but Yu could have struck him anywhere he wanted like an artery, he just decided not to. It also probably wouldn't have been allowed in a match to slit your opponent's throat with a punch.
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I am not even sure if would be capable of cutting the clothing assuming if he goes for the body (might come in use as a semi defensive layer), and if he just goes for the face, Koji can easily block it and stop the "cutting" part, and, again dodge without getting hit, Yu is not at a speed where Koji can't fully dodge
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Yu cuts his arteries and bleeds him out FRA
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From my understanding of azont argument, Yu has superior skill and adaptability + can redirect attack, If everything that he said is true, that Yu was hyper precise and can adjust positions mid action like redirecting a punch halfway through the strike, he has the upper edge here, because they’re not committing to a predictable trajectory. Against an opponent even with instinctive reactions (auto-dodging, reflex-based defense) Instinctive fighters like ayanokoji excel at reading intent and reacting at the last possible moment, but his responses are still triggered by cues and if those cues change mid-execution, his reaction can be baited or misaligned + also the fact that he outcome depends on speed and processing (which yu has the upper hand here) Ayanokoji can theoritically outlast here but that only works if their response time keeps up with what he's reacting to. Against someone who can adjust mid move, that delay gets exploited hard and ayanokoji reads the initial attack and begins to dodge, but Yu corrects the strike mid-action and effectively invalidating the reaction that just happened. Because of the speed gap, the ayanokoji can’t fully reprocess and issue a second adjustment in time, so he get caught in between decisions.
I'm voting for Yu
azontr
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Why would he go for the body if the intent is to make him bleed out, Yu has full anatomical knowledge and basically X-ray vision (not on the profile but that's for the future), and he's not dumb. He would aim for somewhere Kouji can, ya know, bleed from. And again Yu can just change the direction of his attacks mid-swing to strike around Kouji's guard if he tries to block, which is unpredictable from Kouji's perspective.
Also, Yu grows in speed as well as skill, as I've said multiple times, and he already scales ridiculously high above his value to begin with, so he kinda is that much faster even if the numerical gap seems minimal.
EDIT: This was for @XxZetsuxX
Also, Yu grows in speed as well as skill, as I've said multiple times, and he already scales ridiculously high above his value to begin with, so he kinda is that much faster even if the numerical gap seems minimal.
EDIT: This was for @XxZetsuxX
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A few things to point out.
Yu can't redirect Ayanokoji's attacks due to his self-momentum, he has enough control over his body to bring his movements to a stop when his attacks 1 centimeter away from the target. If Yu changed the trajectory of his attack Ayanokoji will instantly kill the momentum behind it to keep himself from entering a vulnerable position.
Yu CAN NOT bait Ayanokoji, the difference in intelligence is too vast. Any attempt Yu makes to outsmart Koji will get instantly picked up by koji's Info Analysis and EG intelligence will have counter measures ready for every single thing Yu could've possibly done against Ayanokoji.
Also, because of the intelligence difference Yu can never put Ayanokoji in a situation where he gets 'caught between decisions'.
He doesn't improve anywhere near on the same level Ayanokoji does and even if he theoretically could it wouldn't work in this fight.
Ayanokoji can go from being absolutely wrecked to low-diffing his opponent in the span of 2-3 minutes.
Even if Yu could do the same, he'll be exhausted by the 3 minute mark and his reactions will start slowing down while koji suffers no reduction in his fighting abilities.
By the time Yu grows enough to match Ayanokoji's skill his body will be too tired to make good use of what he's adapted to.
azontr
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This makes no sense. If Yu redirects his own attack, Kouji will stop himself? Yu isn't redirecting Kouji's attacks, he's shifting his own trajectory while maintaining maximum speed and power. What are you trying to say here?
He can't predict Yu's moves with analysis so this doesn't really matter.
Okay, and Yu can go from knowing nothing about Boxing to being the best Boxer in history just by seeing a single move executed, and that's when he isn't pushed. When you make him actually have to exert himself significantly he can just grow blitz gaps in moments.
No, he won't. Have you even been reading the debate? Yu wasn't exhausted by 3 minutes, he was barely sweating and proceeded to exert himself just fine. Yu's reactions also don't get slower the more tired he is, if anything they get sharper.
He doesn't need to match it, he's already superior. You haven't given a single reason that Kouji is more skilled outside of his intelligence but you haven't given me any feats as to how this intelligence factors into combat that puts Kouji beyond Yu. Just having Extraordinary Genius intelligence isn't enough, you have to actually provide an argument.
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He doesn't resist info analysis, just ANPR is what he is trying to say i think
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As for the first argument I don't think ayanokoji is capable of that or i might just miss it but anyway it still doesn’t just moves it earlier in the motion. To get an attack that close, the body still has to accelerate, extend, and commit structure (hips, shoulders, balance). Killing momentum at the last instant still requires time and neuromuscular signaling. Against someone faster who can change their own action mid-execution, that window however small is enough.
Second, the “can’t be baited due to intelligence” claim breaks under how combat in this context actually works. Feints and mid move adjustments aren’t purely intellectual traps like what he did against Tsukihiro, they’re timing traps. Even if ayanokoji recognizes a feint, recognition ≠ instantaneous physical correction. There’s still a reaction loop which is perceive > decide > execute. If the opponent is faster and actively modifying their attack during that loop, ayanokoji not being outsmarted but he is being outpaced. Intelligence helps him choose better options, but it doesn’t eliminate the biological latency needed to act on those choices.
Third, “never getting caught between decisions” would require effectively zero processing time. But this thread literally already established koji is slightly slower. That gap is exactly what creates decision which is overlap, he begin a response to the initial trajectory Yu changes , and now koji must either override his first response or commit to it. That is being caught between decisions because the opponent is dynamically changing the problem faster than he can fully resolve it
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Yu changes trajectory of his opponent's attacks by punching them away in a different direction.
The moment Ayanokoji realizes the trajectory of his attack change he'll immediately bring it to a stop with self-momentum.
This isn't entirely accurate.
Sure, Yu became the greatest boxer who ever lived the moment he learned how to use the one-two punch but that's mostly because of his perception, not because of some supernatural martial arts instincts.
He became the best because he his perception the means to never get hit while having the ability to hit his opponent.
An absolutely unfair ability that basically makes it impossible for him to lose a boxing match.
His monstrous talent is his perception advantage.
I didn't say he would be too exhausted to continue, I said after three minutes his reactions will start to slow down. (Check the link)
Ayanokoji on the other hand won't lose any combat efficiency because of his superhuman stamina.
How will his reactions get sharper?
Can you provide a list of all of Yu's best intelligence that make you think he somehow surpasses Ayanokoji's EG intelligence?
I'll provide feats that probably match or surpass Yu's in return.
azontr
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That's not what's being argued here. The argument is that Yu would redirect his OWN attacks with Ryu's fighting style, which allows him to freely shift and change his motions mid-movement with no loss in speed or power. The point is that he can strike around Kouji's guard.
No, this is insanely wrong. Yu's talent isn't only his perception. His perception is just one aspect of it— but from the get-go he also had god level technique, as acknowledged by boxers like Jean who is a genius that has surpassed human limits and achieved perfect body control as well and acknowledges that every move that Yu makes is perfect on a technical level. K, a legendary boxing coach, also acknowledges that beyond his perception advantage that Yu has a natural athletic gift beyond measure. The story defines athletic ability by one's ability to understand the flow of movements (aka technique) and Yu's athletic ability is regularly stated to be beyond human limits.
It isn't just his perception, that's just an obvious ignorant argument.
You can't prove this, though. The only sign of exhaustion Yu showed after three minutes was minor sweating. He wasn't even winded. You can't prove his reactions will dip by any significant margin through this.
His reactions get sharper because he gets sharper constantly. Even when he doesn't need to apply himself in a fight, he gets sharper. The more you push him the faster he grows.
I already explained to you why his intelligence feats and combat skill feats are two separate things. Showing intelligence feats wouldn't prove anything. You need to show SKILL feats. Just because they're indexed in the same section doesn't mean they're the same thing, your intellect and fighting skills are two separate things. Either show me Kouji's COMBAT feats, not intelligence feats, combat feats, or make another argument.
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My bad, I thought we were talking about this.
I agree that his will initially trip up koji and let Yu get a few in. But that'll only work for a couple of hits.
I can't see even this being a problem once Ayanokoji's adapted to Yu.
After seeing it once Ayanokoji will understand that Ryu's style lets Yu switch change from one technique to another without losing any power.
This like every other technique Ayanokoji has will only be a problem for the first 2-3 minutes because after he's adapted.
Once he's adapted he'll have such a thorough understanding of Yu's psychology and fighting style that he'll know what attack Yu is gonna use and what attack he'll switch to if he engages him with a specific guard, having countermeasures ready to catch/evade the strike.
I didn't say his only talent was perception, I said it was his biggest talent. 'Mostly' as in the biggest reason K wanted to train him.
Yes he has insane athleticism that allowed him to master techniques on a level beyond Jean despite not needing to train as much as him, but he had to train to some level before he got to that level.
Is there any evidence that if Jean would have the same reaction watching Yu vs Ryu as he did when he saw his professional fight? the fight he had after honing his technique by practicing boxing to some degree?
The simple proof for this is that Yu is an average human in this key and an average human's reactions start slowing down the more fatigue they accumulate upon expending effort. The link I've provided states that this will start to happen by the second round.
Yu isn't an exception to this yet, his reactions getting sharper will apply to later keys where he has athletic human stamina and beyond to negate this natural weakness of the human body.
In this key, when the fight starts going beyond the three minute mark Yu's physical capabilities will start to decline.
He won't be completely gassed out at the 3 minute mark, that'll happen at 9 minutes.
But he will start getting sluggish and incapable of fighting at his maximum ability.
Does this work:
Horikita is a black belt in Karate and Aikido and Ibuki is a skilled enough user of Capoeira that she can match Horikita. These two together were able to defeat Ichika (a 5th gen WR student) in a 2v1 that was very close, after the fight it's revealed that Ichika was HEAVILY injured (She was injured so badly Horikta and Ibuki were surprised that she was even able to stand let alone fight) during that fight.
So, it takes two skilled martial artists to match a barely standing 5th gen WR student.
Then there is horikita's brother Manabu. Who is a 5th dan black belt in both Karate and Aikido. He while blinded blocked an attack from Ryuuen, a self taught martial artist who's unique style was praised by Ayanokoji himself. On manabu's profile this feat is listed as Enhansed Senses but that's an error, Ayanokoji stated that the attack was 'predicted' not 'sensed'. So Manabu's ANPR is so good he effortlessly predicted and blocked the attack of a skilled fighter he had never interacted before while he couldn't see.
Ichika's ANPR far upscales Manabu.
Yagami is another 5th gen WR student, one who outperforms Ichika in everything. She has absolutely NO CHANCE against this guy.
Yagami is inferior to the high performing students of WR's 4th gen such as Yuki in skill.
The high performing students of the WR get stomped by Shiro who vastly out skills all of them in combat skill.
Shiro is out skilled by the WR instructors.
The WR instructors are inferior to the 6 guys who were brought to fight 9 y/o Ayanokoji and got neg-diffed.
Tsukishiro (a trained assassin) is above far the 6 guys both physically and in terms of skill. Shiba is in the same league as Tsukishiro. Both of whom couldn't lay a finger on 16 y/o Ayanokoji in a 2v1 while he was dehydrated, sleep deprived for three days.
Tl;dr: Barely functioning Ichika <= Horikita and Ibuki (Skilled martial artists) <<< Not injured Ichika <<< Yagami < 4th gen WR students << Shiro <<< WR instructors < Outsiders <<<<<< 9 y/o Ayanokoji < Shiba <= Tsukishiro <<< 16 y/o weakened Ayanokoji
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