Adding Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 to Instant Death

[Astral_Trinity439]

There’s also the part where Yogiri eliminates concepts like gravity.

Spoiler

So, making up his mind, Yogiri opened the second gate. He only wanted
to stop falling, but if he wasn’t careful, he could erase gravity from the entire
world as well. When erasing a particular phenomenon or concept, limiting the
area of effect was incredibly difficult. That was why he had hesitated to try killing the “space” back in the Garula Canyon tower.
Furthermore, he wasn’t sure if he could really call the force that brought
objects down to the ground “gravity” in this world. And even back home,
people weren’t yet sure if gravity operated based on some physical particle
like a graviton. Would killing something so vague be safe? And besides all of
that, even if he killed “gravity,” he would simply continue to fall at a uniform
speed instead of accelerating.
After a brief hesitation, he gave up. It was something he had done
unconsciously before, so thinking about it too much was a waste of time.
“Man, this is annoying. I’ll just kill my momentum.”
It was practically playing with words at that point, but for Yogiri, once he
had reached Phase Two, such a thing was possible. In an instant, he
eliminated the energy causing him to fall. It didn’t matter what precise force
was at work...what “died,” and the resulting phenomenon, was all dependent
on his own perception.

The concept of death is also based on Yogiri's perception.

Spoiler

“I’m the one who decides what death is. If it moves, it’s alive. If it dies, it
stops. Your opinion doesn’t matter.”

Spoiler

“Ha, haha! This is the end! Yama has no concept of death! There’s no
way you can —”
“Die.”
Yama immediately went limp. Falling into a puddle of blackness, she
quickly dispersed, leaving nothing behind.
“You know, all the people who’ve said they can’t die, or that they’re
already dead, or that they have no concept of death...all of them have died so
far.”

Spoiler

“Surely those other weaklings who call themselves gods would be killed
once their core is destroyed. But a true god has no weaknesses. Even the
concept of death does not apply to us.”

Not an expert on CM, but since Yogiri’s perception defines the UEW and all phenomena, shouldn’t that at least be CM type 2?

Yeah, all of this is fine for CM2. Especially the latter, he could get AE on Type 2 Concepts (理 can mean principles as well), which was used in that scan.

From my meagre understanding the Heavenly world is a conceptual foundation serving as a record for things, typically I would say something like History would be a better fit rather than CM but yes I can see CM but for CM you need to manipulate the concept and I am not seeing that here (gonna wait for that)

It could also be a buzzword. Honestly it would be great if we could get the raws for that scan.

 

[Planck69]

I agree with Oblivion_Of_The_Endless. This can just be labelled Concept Destruction (Type 3) if need be.

 

[Hecky2222]

Also, I will miss you a lot in the coming days.

Such peak trolling. Approved

 

[Azertyhuuh]

I agree with Oblivion_Of_The_Endless. This can just be labelled Concept Destruction (Type 3) if need be.

We are discussing other arguments; you can share your opinion here and here.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Such peak trolling. Approved

What are you talking about? Don’t I have the right to miss a person ?

It’s better not to accuse others like that.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Maybe something like
'''[[Conceptual Manipulation|Conceptual Destruction]]''' (Type 2; Is capable of erasing gravity from the world)

That scan isn’t talking about an existing governing concept; instead, it’s talking about concepts as categories of things, so it still isn’t Conceptual Manipulation Type 2

So yes
Now the Death stuff is more or less subjective reality however considering he can directly affect beings that aren't affected by the concept of death via redefining the concept of death or imposing the concept of death on Gravity (another concept which is type-2) I would assume that yes he has solid grounds for CM-2 however since I lack context and my understanding isn't that great I will tag UMR to check and also Viet because it's fun to bother him

Sweet Dao already addressed that scan here, but there are no scans

Also can someone get Dragon was it ? That downgraded Eugiri's CM from 2 to 3 to hear his side of the argument.

Honestly, the scan on the page doesn’t prove that Yogiri is killing the Type 3 concepts. In fiction, concepts and essence aren’t always the same without proof.

 

[Lycoris4812]

Don’t I have the right to miss a person ?

No.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Interesting Fun & Games thread ngl
Anyways

I think there can be a good argument for such yes. I will go through the stuff one by one

From my meagre understanding the Heavenly world is a conceptual foundation serving as a record for things, typically I would say something like History would be a better fit rather than CM but yes I can see CM but for CM you need to manipulate the concept and I am not seeing that here (gonna wait for that)

Maybe something like
'''[[Conceptual Manipulation|Conceptual Destruction]]''' (Type 2; Is capable of erasing gravity from the world)

I believe this fulfills the necessary criterion to be more precise the latter

So yes
Now the Death stuff is more or less subjective reality however considering he can directly affect beings that aren't affected by the concept of death via redefining the concept of death or imposing the concept of death on Gravity (another concept which is type-2) I would assume that yes he has solid grounds for CM-2 however since I lack context and my understanding isn't that great I will tag UMR to check and also Viet because it's fun to bother him

Also can someone get Dragon was it ? That downgraded Eugiri's CM from 2 to 3 to hear his side of the argument.

I'm fine with CM2 via these arguments.

But I would word it like '''[[Conceptual Manipulation|Conceptual Destruction]]''' (Type 2; He is capable of killing/erasing concepts from the entire world if he is not careful. Likely able to destroy multiple Celestial Foundations, which are conceptual vessels serving as the foundation/base of the world. Should be capable of doing the same as "The Boy" that could kill the very concept of a being)

I know the feat from "the boy" isnt type 2, its just there for supporting evidence for CM.

That scan isn’t talking about an existing governing concept; instead, it’s talking about concepts as categories of things, so it still isn’t Conceptual Manipulation Type 2

It talks about erasing concepts right after talking about erasing gravity (and space) as a whole from the world. The implications are pretty clear to me.

 

[sukuna171]

That scan isn’t talking about an existing governing concept; instead, it’s talking about concepts as categories of things, so it still isn’t Conceptual Manipulation Type 2

Sweet Dao already addressed that scan here, but there are no scans

Honestly, the scan on the page doesn’t prove that Yogiri is killing the Type 3 concepts. In fiction, concepts and essence aren’t always the same without proof.

Spoiler

“I thought she was dead!”
“Unbelievable. I definitely felt her core being destroyed...”
“Surely those other weaklings who call themselves gods would be killed
once their core is destroyed. But a true god has no weaknesses. Even the
concept of death does not apply to us.”
He had definitely felt her destruction. Her body had been erased, and her
presence had vanished. Rick was absolutely certain she had been defeated.
Yet even so, she stood before them like nothing had happened. He found it
incomprehensible. Before such an absurdly powerful enemy, he had no idea
how to proceed.
“Now then, it appears you have no further ploys. I suppose that marks the
end of our encounter.”
The UEG casually swung her sword. Rick leaped forward to defend the
Divine King, and both were neatly sliced in two.
His Holy Sword had been useless.

Spoiler

What did “death” even mean? It had an objective grasp of the concept,
and had even experienced it after a fashion in its previous body, but it didn’t
really understand what it meant at its core. The very concept of death being
applicable to the Foundation Eater itself was totally beyond its ability to
comprehend.

Note: Yoma isn’t a god.

Spoiler

Ryousuke was sure that Yama could do it. She was the immortal queen
who ruled over life and death. For her, there was no such thing as dying. And
as someone who couldn’t die, Yogiri’s counterattack would mean nothing,
which in turn meant he was just like an ordinary human to her. Getting rid of
him would be child’s play.
“Ha, haha! This is the end! Yama has no concept of death! There’s no
way you can —”
“Die.”
Yama immediately went limp. Falling into a puddle of blackness, she
quickly dispersed, leaving nothing behind.
“You know, all the people who’ve said they can’t die, or that they’re
already dead, or that they have no concept of death...all of them have died so
far.”

Gods far weaker than Yogiri in terms of power are still able to destroy the very concept of people existing.

Spoiler

As she spoke, she began tightening her grip faster. Her interest was
beginning to fade, finding this to be a waste of time.
“Oh? I see you have changed your approach. You are now attempting to
kill the very concept of my being. Of course, killing this vessel means little,
so that is the correct path to take, but is it something you are capable of?
Underhanded tactics like killing the concept of a person only works if you
alone are capable of doing it. If we are both capable, then it becomes a simple
contest of strength.”
With a dull sound, the boy’s neck snapped. The UEG threw his
motionless body to the ground.
“Dead, is he? I expected something like ‘killing his own death,’ but it
appears he was not as sturdy as I thought.”

 

[Azertyhuuh]

That scan isn’t talking about an existing governing concept; instead, it’s talking about concepts as categories of things, so it still isn’t Conceptual Manipulation Type 2

Sweet Dao already addressed that scan here, but there are no scans

Honestly, the scan on the page doesn’t prove that Yogiri is killing the Type 3 concepts. In fiction, concepts and essence aren’t always the same without proof.

I have said exactly what I have, and what was mentioned here hasn’t changed anything. Also, this will give Yogiri Conceptual Manipulation Type 1, and the decision is up to the staff.

The concept of death is independent of reality, and Yogiri is the only one who defines what death is. As you can see, even people who are already dead—they are already dead and outside the concept of death, they do not know the meaning of death, it does not apply to them, and it does not affect them. They die when Yogiri wants them to, even if they were already dead, because he is the one who determines the nature of death and what death is. Therefore, this still qualifies him to possess Conceptual Manipulation Type 1.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

From my meagre understanding the Heavenly world is a conceptual foundation serving as a record for things, typically I would say something like History would be a better fit rather than CM but yes I can see CM but for CM you need to manipulate the concept and I am not seeing that here (gonna wait for that)

It's also concept manip if you destroy the concept. Yogiri is already considered as being able to destroy Celestial Foundations on the profile.

 

[sukuna171]

It's also concept manip if you destroy the concept. Yogiri is already considered as being able to destroy Celestial Foundations on the profile.

I don’t remember the exact chapter number from the manga, but Aoi said to Yogiri, “If that were denied, no phenomenon or existence would be allowed to exist.

 

[Planck69]

I'm fine with CM2 via these arguments.

But I would word it like '''[[Conceptual Manipulation|Conceptual Destruction]]''' (Type 2; He is capable of killing/erasing concepts from the entire world if he is not careful. Should be capable of doing the same as "The Boy" that could kill the very concept of a being. Likely able to destroy multiple Celestial Foundations)

I know the second feat isnt Type 2, its just there for supporting evidence for CM.


It talks about erasing concepts right after talking about erasing gravity (and space) as a whole from the world. The implications are pretty clear to me.

Looking at this, Type 2 is fine. The "space" is one is especially clear cut.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

It's also concept manip if you destroy the concept. Yogiri is already considered as being able to destroy Celestial Foundations on the profile.

Why are you ignoring what I said about the concept of death? He deserves Conceptual Manipulation Type 1. Look for yourself at all the arguments that Sukuna and I have presented."

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Why are you ignoring what I said about the concept of death? He deserves Conceptual Manipulation Type 1. Look for yourself at all the arguments that Sukuna and I have presented."

No one is ignoring you, we simply disagree that what you are showing is not CM 1, but only CM 2 or 3, or something else entirely....

Either way, Conceptual destruction type 2 and 3, seem fine to me.

 

[Planck69]

Why are you ignoring what I said about the concept of death? He deserves Conceptual Manipulation Type 1. Look for yourself at all the arguments that Sukuna and I have presented."

Because waxing poetic about "killing anything" does not Type 1 Concept hax make.

 

[Cipher72]

'''[[Conceptual Manipulation|Conceptual Destruction]]''' (Type 2; He is capable of killing/erasing concepts from the entire world if he is not careful. Should be capable of doing the same as "The Boy" that could kill the very concept of a being)

Obviously fine with this not a staff so it doesn't matter but still

It's also concept manip if you destroy the concept. Yogiri is already considered as being able to destroy Celestial Foundations on the profile.

Maybe that should be listed as well ?

Sth like

'''[[Conceptual Manipulation|Conceptual Destruction]]''' (Type 2; Is capable of killing/erasing concepts such as gravity from the entire world and possibly destroy the celestial foundation an abstract concept if he is not careful. Should be capable of doing the same as "The Boy" that could kill the very concept of a being

Maybe it's too wordy ?
Also can I get a citation for the scan so that I can add it in the album and I made the Imgur into a Imgchest.

 

[sukuna171]

I’d like to add that I agree with concept type 2 rather than type 1.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Obviously fine with this not a staff so it doesn't matter but still
Maybe that should be listed as well ?

I edited it.

Also can I get a citation for the scan so that I can add it in the album and I made the Imgur into a Imgchest.

1st statement: Volume 4 Chapter 14
2nd statement: Volume 3 Chapter 3
3rd statement: Volume 11 Chapter 14

 

[Cipher72]

I’d like to add that Grass is Green

I don't have to mention but I am of the same thought as well.

That scan isn’t talking about an existing governing concept; instead, it’s talking about concepts as categories of things, so it still isn’t Conceptual Manipulation Type 2

Unless there's some external context that I am missing p sure it qualifies

but there are no scans

Gojo provided them besides they aren't being cited so not an issue and UMR can get them ig

Honestly, the scan on the page doesn’t prove that Yogiri is killing the Type 3 concepts. In fiction, concepts and essence aren’t always the same without proof.

As much as I would say yes, there's too much stuff rn to deny

“If that were denied, no phenomenon or existence would be allowed to exist.

Very well known panel, I can get the manga, LN and Anime for that if you want (I don't remember whether anime adapted that 1:1 though)

 

[Cipher72]

I edited it.

1st statement: Volume 4 Chapter 14
2nd statement: Volume 3 Chapter 3
3rd statement: Volume 11 Chapter 14

K I will add these to the album you can do the rest. Gonna dip now and Unwatch.

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

I know the feat from "the boy" isnt type 2, its just there for supporting evidence for CM.

Based on the additional information, I agree with CM2. That scan also makes it clearer that they are fundamental concepts. As far as I can see, there’s a clear difference between destroying space as a concept (a category) and destroying the concept of space (a fundamental concept) etc

 

[Azertyhuuh]

I edited it.

1st statement: Volume 4 Chapter 14
2nd statement: Volume 3 Chapter 3
3rd statement: Volume 11 Chapter 14

Can you also add Information Manipulation Type 2 because of this ↓

Here we have the World Core, which is the foundation of the entire world and the source of all information about the world. It is called the World Core and exists in a layer completely separate from the world, and the information of the world can be manipulated and everything related to the world can be changed from this core.

 

[sukuna171]

Can you also add Information Manipulation Type 2 because of this ↓

Here we have the World Core, which is the foundation of the entire world and the source of all information about the world. It is called the World Core and exists in a layer completely separate from the world, and the information of the world can be manipulated and everything related to the world can be changed from this core.

I agree with this, but it should probably be handled in another thread.

 

[Reiner04]

But I would word it like '''[[Conceptual Manipulation|Conceptual Destruction]]''' (Type 2; He is capable of killing/erasing concepts from the entire world if he is not careful. Likely able to destroy multiple Celestial Foundations, which are conceptual vessels serving as the foundation/base of the world. Should be capable of doing the same as "The Boy" that could kill the very concept of a being)

This sounds good to me.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Can you also add Information Manipulation Type 2 because of this ↓

Here we have the World Core, which is the foundation of the entire world and the source of all information about the world. It is called the World Core and exists in a layer completely separate from the world, and the information of the world can be manipulated and everything related to the world can be changed from this core.

1. This is not really the thread for this.
2. Im working on my own CRT for info manip that I'll post later.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Reading through all disagree with type 1
Tho agree with type 2

 

[Child_of_destiny]

CM2 sounds fine as explained by members here

 

[Azertyhuuh]

1. This is not really the thread for this.
2. Im working on my own CRT for info manip that I'll post later.

Could he possess Conceptual Manipulation Type 1 based on this? Because the Core is the source of the entire world and existed before the world itself. The World Core is completely independent, located in a layer entirely separate from the world, as if it exists in a completely different dimension, and it is the Core of the world, responsible for everything in the entire world.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

I agree with this, but it should probably be handled in another thread.

Yes, I will do that, but Yogiri might also be able to obtain Conceptual Manipulation Type 1, considering that the World Core exists in a layer completely separate, as if in a dimension entirely different from the world. The Core is older than the world itself—it existed before the world—and it is the foundation of everything in the world. Whoever reaches the Core can change all the information of the world.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

and existed before the world itself

Do you have proof of this?

The World Core is completely independent, located in a layer entirely separate from the world, as if it exists in a completely different dimensio

It being in a different dimension doesnt say anything about its relationship with the object(s) it governs. It's not enough to say it's independent of them.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Anyway, since we got enough votes for CM2 and more than 48 hours have passed, I'll apply the changes.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Do you have proof of this?

Omega Blade can access the world core and it existed before the creation of reality (world), meaning that the World Core itself exist way before the conception of reality and omega blade.

It being in a different dimension doesnt say anything about its relationship with the object(s) it governs. It's not enough to say it's independent of them.

Open these files for me. I forgot to edit them, and I think there are many characters that haven’t had the previous and current changes applied.

Ultimate Extermination God (UEG)

Ultimate Extermination God, also known as UEG, is an existence that transcends most, if not all, the Gods hierarchically in Instant Death. She is also the God who used to rule over the Heavenly Record Multiverse before she was sealed during her battle with two other Gods who were not too...

vsbattles.fandom.com

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Mitsuki_(Instant_Death)

Also, I forgot to remove the introduction on the Cosmology page. You need to delete or modify the introduction because it talks about trying to merge the work of the Demon King with Instant Death.

Additionally, you haven’t updated the Celestial Organization to 2B. It contains timelines within it and parallel universes, so at the very least it should be changed from 2C to 2B.

Also, in Yogiri's Abstract Existence, delete the word 'base' and everything after it.

Literally, you haven’t opened anything. I discuss things, and they just stay the same—only Yogiri is being modified.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Omega Blade can access the world core and it existed before the creation of reality (world), meaning that the World Core itself exist way before the conception of reality and omega blade.

Do you have scans of it?

Open these files for me. I forgot to edit them, and I think there are many characters that haven’t had the previous and current changes applied.

What are you going to edit?

Also, I forgot to remove the introduction on the Cosmology page. You need to delete or modify the introduction because it talks about trying to merge the work of the Demon King with Instant Death.

Can you quote the part in the page where it mentions The Demon King novel?

Additionally, you haven’t updated the Celestial Organization to 2B. It contains timelines within it and parallel universes, so at the very least it should be changed from 2C to 2B.

They have not been accepted as 2-B, only Low 2-C. If you want them to be 2-B you'd need to make a CRT.

Also, in Yogiri's Abstract Existence, delete the word 'base' and everything after it.

There is no such word on his AE justification.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Do you have scans of it?

The Omega Blade sword is the sword that created the world on its own, and this sword can reach the World Core, while the world and the Core are completely distinct. The Core is the foundation and source of the world, and all the information of the world exists within it. The Core exists in a layer entirely separate from the world, as if in another dimension, and through it, everything in the world can be changed.

As mentioned, the Omega Blade sword created the world, which means that the Core existed before the world and even before the sword itself, because the sword functions like a key, and its purpose is to reach the Core. Since the Core already exists, and the sword created the world, this demonstrates that the Core existed before the world and the sword together.

This can be compared to a door and a key: a key cannot exist before the house door exists. The door must exist first in order for the key to exist. The same applies here: the Omega Blade sword is like the key. It has the ability to reach the Core and change all the information within it, thereby changing everything in the world. Therefore, the Core exists before the sword, and the sword, in turn, created the world, which means the Core existed before the world and the sword together.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

The Omega Blade sword is the sword that created the world on its own, and this sword can reach the World Core, while the world and the Core are completely distinct. The Core is the foundation and source of the world, and all the information of the world exists within it. The Core exists in a layer entirely separate from the world, as if in another dimension, and through it, everything in the world can be changed.

As mentioned, the Omega Blade sword created the world, which means that the Core existed before the world and even before the sword itself, because the sword functions like a key, and its purpose is to reach the Core. Since the Core already exists, and the sword created the world, this demonstrates that the Core existed before the world and the sword together.

This can be compared to a door and a key: a key cannot exist before the house door exists. The door must exist first in order for the key to exist. The same applies here: the Omega Blade sword is like the key. It has the ability to reach the Core and change all the information within it, thereby changing everything in the world. Therefore, the Core exists before the sword, and the sword, in turn, created the world, which means the Core existed before the world and the sword together.

It states that the omega blade created the world, so the world (and consequently the core) can't have existed before it. It's a feat for the blade, not the core. There is nothing in those scans that support what you are saying. The "key to a back door" statement is just an analogy to explain the control the blade has over the world, nothing more.

Besides, the World Core is an information structure, not a concept structure. So it wouldn't be relevant for concept manip either way.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

What are you going to edit?

I will adjust the tier and add Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 to them. UEG, Mitsuki, and many other characters should be upgraded in tier, and most characters should have Conceptual Manipulation Type 2.

In her fight against Touichirou in the higher universes, UEG destroyed infinite universes, parallel universes, and dimensions. After that, UEG stated that she would destroy all the higher universes, all dimensions, and everything with her power. She was about to erase all of existence. As we know, the Great Sage sees everything as mere fiction, and UEG herself is nothing more than fiction to him. He is the strongest in the series after the Absolute God and Yogiri.

Touichirou will be 1-C with the addition of Conceptual Manipulation Type 2.
UEG will be 1-C with Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 (she stated that she would destroy the higher universes, dimensions, parallel universes, and everything with her power).

The Great Sage will be 1-C with Conceptual Manipulation Type 2; he is stronger than UEG. Even the sword of Kyuuzaburou Suzuki, which can cut gods and any world in the Ultimate Ensemble, was merely a part of the Great Sage’s dream.

There are also many other characters.

Can you quote the part in the page where it mentions The Demon King novel?

"Put my name here in the supporters section and also among the knowledgeable members↓

Fujitakaverse

The Fujitakaverse are different novel series written by Tsuyoshi Fujitaka that share the same multiverse. The works in the setting are: Neechan wa Chuunibyou follows a first year high school student Yuichi Sakaki, who one day suddenly awakens the power of “Soul Reader” within him, which allows...

vsbattles.fandom.com

As for the quote, when I looked at the introduction, I saw a conclusion saying that both works can be used as evidence, or something like that. That’s why I thought the Demon King novel was still included, so please check or clarify this for me.

In conclusion, it is unadventurous to say that both series share the same setting; consequently, both can be used for cosmological resolutenesses.

They have not been accepted as 2-B, only Low 2-C. If you want them to be 2-B you'd need to make a CRT.

Alright

There is no such word on his AE justification.

The problem is—look for yourself—it still says in the Abstract Existence explanation that it is a law or a rule. Look ↓

Abstract Existence (Type 1. Exists as a rule that governs and regulates the Ultimate Ensemble World, acting as the End, Stopper, and Limiter of all existence[68])

Delete 'rule' and everything after it, and keep only that he is the end.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Agree with CM2, no base for CM1 really