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How is this not a reason? Naruto has superior range (Bijuu Dama's) and better hax (2 layers of sealing, low-godly regen neg, ee, layered power null etc)
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The Sun God Nika vs The Six Paths Sage (Luffy vs Naruto).
- Thread starter Maitreya12
- Start date
- Status
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Because Naruto has many abilities? Just saying "hax" without elaboration is not a reason.
Now as for your actual arguments, the Bijuu Dama point has been tackled, as they can be turned to rubber and reflected with 8x the force. How does Naruto use sealing and power null in combat? Luffy doesn't have regeneration, so I'm not sure what the point in bringing that up was. Tso's have also been commented on as Luffy is much faster and can see the future.
At least read through the thread and respond to posts that have addressed the arguments you're going to make.
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I'll put my vote for Naruto as he has vastly higher AP and LS, he one shots with any of his named attacks. His Tso also one shot and erase any part of Luffy they touch and Naruto is very well versed in fighting against characters that know exactly what he'll do next and still able to win the fight. Also doesn't G5 have a time limit? I'm pretty sure Naruto can easily out last hi, as well.
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It's the hax that were mentioned above in this thread, I should've said fra, but didn't think that I needed to.
What's Luffy's range of influence when it comes to transmuting things? The Bijuu Dama's are hundreds of KM's and Naruto can dish out handfuls while having Kurama further empower him by building Nature Energy.
By applying it to Rasengan's/Rasenshurikens.
Regeneration (A faster recovery rate is given to Awakened Zoan users, allowing them to recover from injuries more quickly. This allowed Luffy to quickly recover mid-battle after being fully scorched by Kaidou's '''Bolo Breath''')
How does this help him with attacking Naruto? Is he fast enough to blitz Naruto? If not, Naruto can defend against the attack's by transmuting the TSO into a shield the way Madara does, allowing him to use it defensively.
Arkansalter2
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Hell no. He legit uses it as his new base damn near from what I've seen.
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I don't care to engage in extensive back-and-forth about this topic via text; both sides have hashed out their arguments extensively off site. Unless there's a rule requiring me to engage with every opposing argument, I'm free to vote for whatever reason I see fit.
Unfollowing
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Luffy turned the entirety of Elbaph and Egghead as well as the surrounding ocean into rubber. And these were both passively. Hundreds to Thousands of Kilometers.
Scan?
Luffy has resistance to regeneration negation via Haki.
Over time, yes.
So the argument is that Naruto would stay holed up in a TSO bubble the entire fight? I don't see how this gives Naruto the win.
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I've never even spoken to you off-site so I don't know what you mean?
You're free to drop your vote and leave, but how are you going to say that both sides have given arguments off-site without the people actually in the thread being able to give input? It's just lazy.
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How long can he keep doing this for?
For sealing : Against Madara, and then later against Kaguya. For power null, against Madara
To what extent? If someone has regen neg up to low - mid, and Luffy can resist that, does it now mean he can also resist higher forms of it?
No? It's that when Naruto needs to block attacks, the same way Luffy's is trying to die from Naruto's casual attacks by dodging/transmuting. Naruto needs to counterattack with TSO's.
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Not saying that you and I did, just that the match itself was talked about extensively off-site, and nothing new is being used for either sides as an argument.
I'm confused, the people who voted (you and kaydee), have given input for why they think the character wins, the only reason I didn't at first is because I mostly agreed with what Kaydee said, and forgot to send a FRA.
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However long he wants. It's a passive ability.
I'm asking for a scan of the sealing in action.
What's being nulled? All I see are meteors getting destroyed.
Naruto's negation is limited to begin with. It only slows regeneration. With Haki, he would be able to overpower it.
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My vote is for Luffy FRA.
Naruto's effective Durability in this fight is only 59.44 ZT as his ACoC and ACoA would externally bypass the defenses of his Kurama Avatar and TSO defenses. Not to mention the devastating damage done to Naruto's organs from Luffy's punches that are >>59.44 ZT. Naruto's best chance of winning is landing a Magnet Release and trying to capitalize on the paralysis but I don't see how it can land when Luffy has better speed, better reactions and just the ability to see the future. Landing any sort of win con is going to be VERY difficult for Naruto which leads me to believe that more often than not Luffy will just pummel Naruto down before he can find his win con.
Naruto's effective Durability in this fight is only 59.44 ZT as his ACoC and ACoA would externally bypass the defenses of his Kurama Avatar and TSO defenses. Not to mention the devastating damage done to Naruto's organs from Luffy's punches that are >>59.44 ZT. Naruto's best chance of winning is landing a Magnet Release and trying to capitalize on the paralysis but I don't see how it can land when Luffy has better speed, better reactions and just the ability to see the future. Landing any sort of win con is going to be VERY difficult for Naruto which leads me to believe that more often than not Luffy will just pummel Naruto down before he can find his win con.
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It is.
Haki has resistance to sealing.
So what was being nulled?
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How many layers? This is 2 layers of sealing and 1 layer of paralysis.
Nothings being nulled there, you asked how Naruto applies it in combat, I respond by saying with Rasengan/Rasenshurikens. I then send a panel of him using his TSO's as RasenBijuu Dama's. As for what would be nulled against Luffy, his Haki and wtv form of energy/spiritual projection it has.
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8
Haki isn't a spiritual energy. It's based on willpower. Haki also has layers of power nullification resistance.
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Where can I find the layered scaling for Haki?
IbukiDoujisGiantTail
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Hmm. Tough match up but I'd give it to Luffy
Naruto has 6x AP advantage while Luffy is about 2-4x faster, Naruto has way more abilities he can throw at Luffy but there's only a few that Luffy can't just Haki-diff out of like the TSO (potentially since it's also noted as Subjective Reality which Luffy can interact with but it's also listed as EE which he can't), just general AP stomp or some of his signature moves like the Rasenshuriken or clone-dog piling Luffy. In terms of their respective ESP's, they seem pretty similar with reading emotions and sensing energy but Kenbun seems to take the edge given that it provides a 360 degrees view, full-on mind reading and also flat out Future Sight, plus Kenbun should be able to work through Genjutsu. Skillwise they're also pretty even imo, both of them are Genius combatants who have a habit of just skill-diffing and improvising against highly trained opponents, so I don't see a skillstomp happening either.
Naruto's wincons: Clone spam detain Luffy with higher LS -> hit him with a Biju Bomb, TSO, Rasenshuriken, or Gamabunta summon to water-diff him / Maybe possession through Kurama / Get close and try to AP stomp
Luffys wincon's: Haki-diff internal destruction GG / Reactive Powerlevel growth to match Naruto's stats and potentially speedblitz / G5 to reflect most if not all of Naruto's kit back at him
I think Luffy's wincons are easier to achieve since he'd only need to land one rush of punches with his go-to battle strategy of G5 ACOC Internal Destruction compared to Naruto who needs way more moving parts to work out in his favor. Luffy's Future Sight also really helps him here since it'd mean Naruto couldn't sneak attack him or hit him with a technique Luffy wouldn't know would hurt him (they don't have prior knowledge), and G5's passive rubberization of everything means most if not all of Naruto's kit would just be redirected. Luffy's Reactive Powerlevel is also way better, meaning that if Naruto doesn't end the fight quickly, he risks Luffy eventually outpacing him. Naruto's go-to is Shadow Clone spam so if he goes all out at the start he could dog-pile Luffy and nuke him from a safe distance, but Luffy is still faster and would only grow increasingly faster the moment the fight starts due to how G5 works, and the moment he goes giant he's full-on speedblitzing.
Naruto has 6x AP advantage while Luffy is about 2-4x faster, Naruto has way more abilities he can throw at Luffy but there's only a few that Luffy can't just Haki-diff out of like the TSO (potentially since it's also noted as Subjective Reality which Luffy can interact with but it's also listed as EE which he can't), just general AP stomp or some of his signature moves like the Rasenshuriken or clone-dog piling Luffy. In terms of their respective ESP's, they seem pretty similar with reading emotions and sensing energy but Kenbun seems to take the edge given that it provides a 360 degrees view, full-on mind reading and also flat out Future Sight, plus Kenbun should be able to work through Genjutsu. Skillwise they're also pretty even imo, both of them are Genius combatants who have a habit of just skill-diffing and improvising against highly trained opponents, so I don't see a skillstomp happening either.
Naruto's wincons: Clone spam detain Luffy with higher LS -> hit him with a Biju Bomb, TSO, Rasenshuriken, or Gamabunta summon to water-diff him / Maybe possession through Kurama / Get close and try to AP stomp
Luffys wincon's: Haki-diff internal destruction GG / Reactive Powerlevel growth to match Naruto's stats and potentially speedblitz / G5 to reflect most if not all of Naruto's kit back at him
I think Luffy's wincons are easier to achieve since he'd only need to land one rush of punches with his go-to battle strategy of G5 ACOC Internal Destruction compared to Naruto who needs way more moving parts to work out in his favor. Luffy's Future Sight also really helps him here since it'd mean Naruto couldn't sneak attack him or hit him with a technique Luffy wouldn't know would hurt him (they don't have prior knowledge), and G5's passive rubberization of everything means most if not all of Naruto's kit would just be redirected. Luffy's Reactive Powerlevel is also way better, meaning that if Naruto doesn't end the fight quickly, he risks Luffy eventually outpacing him. Naruto's go-to is Shadow Clone spam so if he goes all out at the start he could dog-pile Luffy and nuke him from a safe distance, but Luffy is still faster and would only grow increasingly faster the moment the fight starts due to how G5 works, and the moment he goes giant he's full-on speedblitzing.
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Hax Layer Evaluation Thread
The purpose of this thread is to evaluate which verses do and do not qualify for layered hax under the newly codified standards, much like Glass did for type 5 acausality not too long ago. Given the massive amount of ground that needs to be covered, this will be a somewhat disorganized thread...
Arkansalter2
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Luffy FRA
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- Thread starter
- #62
I’m pretty sure Luffy has the significantly higher lifting strength than Naruto.
Class P Naruto at 500 trillion metric tons vs Class Z Luffy at 35 quintillion metric tons.
Class P Naruto at 500 trillion metric tons vs Class Z Luffy at 35 quintillion metric tons.
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Thats an outdated value unfortunately.
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This a luffy mid-diff. So much wincons in favour of luffy from what im reading. But ye. As that guy said, luffy's wincons are easier to achive than naruto's and Kachoon's breakdown of luffy's wincons puts my vote in favour of luffy. MONKEY D. LUFFY, FRA !!
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Luffy FRA based on Kachon reasonings
Gear 5's Transmutation range is pretty busted (combined even with Haki), it can probably make any Naruto attack ineffective
Gear 5's Transmutation range is pretty busted (combined even with Haki), it can probably make any Naruto attack ineffective
IbukiDoujisGiantTail
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Yeah lets wait for more Naruto supporters before anything final is decided
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kaydee coming back to the thread closed lol 
, I guess we can wait for him to comment tomorrow, since he did announce it
, I guess we can wait for him to comment tomorrow, since he did announce it
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I'd be hesitant on relying on narutos empowerment to close the speed advantage since it was pretty much just a rage amp that was triggered after Obito was insulted.. which would never happen here.
Clones are high-key useless as Luffy's not already faster but also has Danmaku with barrage esque attacks and precog, not to mention he's already fought clone users like Kizaru (and is it Mr. 3? the wax guy). He can also harden his body with haki to resist most of the hax Naruto has and can easily just reflect his Bijuu Bombs or Rasengans with Balloon or just Gear 5 hax. Even if you want to argue Naruto is more skilled, as shown against the likes of Kaguya and Jigen, that doesn't matter if you opponent can just counter everything in your arsenal.
Luffy handily wins Fra
Clones are high-key useless as Luffy's not already faster but also has Danmaku with barrage esque attacks and precog, not to mention he's already fought clone users like Kizaru (and is it Mr. 3? the wax guy). He can also harden his body with haki to resist most of the hax Naruto has and can easily just reflect his Bijuu Bombs or Rasengans with Balloon or just Gear 5 hax. Even if you want to argue Naruto is more skilled, as shown against the likes of Kaguya and Jigen, that doesn't matter if you opponent can just counter everything in your arsenal.
Luffy handily wins Fra
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He cant use future sigh every second
Speed was equalized in every amp if thats not the guy probably would write it to like ap
And conquerors haki wont work everyone ,narutos clones at the same level at madaras limbo clones which is almost equal to jubiidara thats mean it doesnt work
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Leaning luffy as I see his transmutation defense being too effective but I want to wait for kaydees response
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naruto is resistant to transmutation
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That’s progressive; it’s not like Luffy will instantly be at blitz level as soon as the match starts. It took Luffy several clashes and laughs to reach that level against Kizaru.
Although, I’m unsure about him being blitz-level faster overall, since a named attack is what blitzed Kizaru, while both were significantly exhausted and Luffy was already at his limit. Even if he did get faster to that point while at his limit, he would be able to blitz several of Naruto’s clones, sure. But seeing Naruto’s fighting style, that attack might never reach him.
Let’s look at how shitty Luffy’s stamina is in this state. Naruto can outlast him if push comes to shove. Naruto is also a bit of a corny fighter; the minute he sees that Luffy is unpredictable, he won’t engage, at least, not with his main body. Luffy’s “Haki flex” might damage some clones closer to him, but it’ll get weaker the further it is from the epicenter.
We’re looking at a thousand clones here. Considering how Luffy dealt with Kizaru’s clones, he’d likely try Dawn Stamp against them or try to toy with them for fun. All these clones can use the Kurama Avatar, and each of their named attacks is greater than Luffy’s, so they will definitely be an issue for Luffy no matter how you look at it.
It’s a bit of an inconsistency, they mostly get taken out when they’re not defending and when they’re somewhat open, except if the attack is severely greater than their durability, for example, Naruto against Madara’s Gunbai.
If several clones are defensive against a massive AOE attack, it won’t have much effect, just like how his clone somewhat survived the shockwaves from the Tengai Shinsei despite being very close to the center. I’m not saying they’re all impervious to that attack; rather, it’s not so significant that it’ll diminish a massive amount of clones.
Having better reactions doesn’t make your attacks more precise against an opponent with notable reaction speed and senses. I’m saying that since Luffy will likely go for his ranged attacks against Naruto, which are just path attacks and can be dodged when factoring in the opponent’s sensing range and reactions. Unless he wants to hit them individually at close range, which will be a problem, since the closer he gets, the more probable it is that he’ll get absolutely restrained by Naruto due to being in close proximity.
Both characters can also fly, so they’ll most likely fight mid-air, while Naruto is coming from all directions.
The clones will irrefutable figure out his abilities and likely the existence of his precognitive ability, which will make Naruto act accordingly. So it’s not naught, being unpredictable and fighting based on instinct is a fighting style in a sense. The relevance is there.
Luffy can grow or stretch his limbs to be several kilometers in size; I’m unsure if his actual giant form gets that big. Even if we go out on a limb (kek) and assume he grows evenly by that amount, Naruto can make more clones and pin down every one of his limbs, restraining him even more. So he can still be pinned down.
That’s weird, I don’t even see attack reflection on Luffy’s profile, and I don’t see anything about the 8x reflection amp either. Shouldn’t that be accepted before it can be used?
So I’ll just assume it exists for the sake of it. Kaido’s Bolo Breath reached Luffy. I don’t know the panel you’re talking about, but you can’t compare the actual diameter of Kaido’s attack prior to its explosion to a Bijuu Bomb’s; there’s a clear size difference.
Naruto can detonate both of his bombs when they clash with each other, and not with Luffy, thereby making Luffy deal with the explosion width itself, not just the initial matter state. Luffy has never reflected anything that big before and has never been shown to. Naruto’s charged bombs can reach hundreds of kilometers, which is far higher than any range Luffy can cover, even with his limbs stretched. So there is a scenario where Luffy gets overwhelmed with attacks 2x above his durability.
This isn’t even factoring in whether, after all this, Luffy will still have enough stamina to find Naruto and end the fight quickly. As long as Naruto keeps his real self hidden, he can outlast Luffy’s Gear 5 limit by consistently pressuring him with clones and attacks spanning hundreds of kilometers. So my money is still on Naruto here.
All in all, I can see a reality where Luffy wins, It’s not like i’m saying it’s impossible, just that I’m more inclined towards Naruto as it stands. I may or may not drop another response after this, since this took me about 45 mins to type lmao, and i’d be very busy today. I can’t promise i’ll have another response up until tomorrow.
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@Maitreya12 i would like to metion that since haki is spiritual energy, nards invul would negate all of it
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You know what's a fun thing about precog? It's that it can become pretty useless if you get outsmarted. Naruto constantly fights with people who efficiently predict several steps ahead of him and can set up his position in a way where it ends up benefiting him.
A good example is Kakuzu. Kakuzu could predict Naruto is going to send clones for diversion while only the main body is a threat but Naruto predicted this prediction so he hid his true body among the diversion, abusing Kakuzus predictions against himself.
Similar thing with Kaguya. He noticed she negates all his hax and heavily out-stats him so he just started BIQ slamming her to stall.
I'm also reading that Luffy has a time limit on g5 so like, what's stopping Naruto the stamina god from using 2000 clones and just bullying Luffy with his own predictions until that timer runs out?
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Naruto is superior to Luffy in ap so this doesn't work. Only his strongest attacks can equal Naruto ap and this is if the clones aren't even in kurama mode. So I don't think his conq Haki is taken them out. Also do note Naruto resist subjective reality
Naruto has far better reactions. Precog does no equate to reactions, it's just a heads up and if you don't have the reactions to keep up with the heads up you got then it won't be much of an advantage
Yeah about this, six path gives you resistance to subjective reality. Considering the fact that all of these are derived from Luffy subjective reality then none of it works on Naruto attacks so basically Luffy gets barraged.
Also a giant Luffy is just giving Naruto more area to attack with his tso that would deconstruct Luffy.
There's also a matter of Naruto invulnerability here. Would Haki even work on him?
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Voting Naruto btw
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