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Team Fortress 2 Upgrade and revision CTR (Tier 8/7 Upgrades and FTL speed)

I couldn't link multiple links, so I will put the more relevants.
We don't know the relative healths of each merc when that happens, it's not impossible that they've been hurt by previous attacks which lowers their durability and stamina. Also headshots are a bad reference because I'm pretty sure they auto-crit and oneshot people in-game. We're talking about explosions, let's keep it focused.


Also, it's a bit disingenuous to equate one rocket to the metric ton of sticky bombs Demoman plans at the end of Meet the Demoman (more than the 8 max he can plant in-game). Oh yeah, I forgot about grenade/sticky jumping too.
 
After the explosion goes off, you can see the shadow of the rocket coming down
I don't see nothing indicate the missile being delayed tbh.
The only thing I can give you the point is that yeah the turret destruction is seen before, but it is still while Soldier is in mid-air, not before, which is also supported by the orange charm. Even if there was a figure of the missile, you mentioned that it's later, so I don't see that it contributes to your point either.
So, there's no support to see the explosion take place with Soldier at the epicenter.

We don't know the relative healths of each merc when that happens, it's not impossible that they've been hurt by previous attacks which lowers their durability and stamina
Ngl this is already far-fetched, having Medic in two of the scenes.

Also headshots are a bad reference because I'm pretty sure they auto-crit and oneshot people in-game.
So they don't scale which is the point, uh.

Also, it's a bit disingenuous to equate one rocket to the metric ton of sticky bombs Demoman plans at the end of Meet the Demoman (more than the 8 max he can plant in-game).
I mean, the OP is arguing that mercenaries scales from all weapons???
 
Gonna come in and say, a Rocket Jump is performed by Crouching, jumping, then shooting a rocket at your feet preferably in the opposite direction you're going, all at the same time... but there are techniques that let you just jump off walls and that probably qualifies for scaling.
 
Uhm, didn't Soldier also have some kind of Damage Reduction when doing Rocket-jump?
This should be added as a ability and considered if we're saying he scales to his rockets.
 
There's no feat linked where they react.

Tanking is only in game due to not making the game freaking unbalanced
Same thing could be said about the projectile speed of the cowmangler as seeing the projectile "slow" is not to make the game unbalenced.

Also when did the literal gameplay of the game became not usable? I can understand some exeptions but i don't belive this applies here to the extent that u are proposing.

It's fine for the hu scaling thing because we do objectively have inconsistencies and that's fine (but as i said we are not using hu/in game scaling here), but damage wise i think it's fine.
Also, this is also shown in the game, with uh, two shots.

Yes, and they can take one hit from their weapons, that's why they scale to them (also in the same clip you can see soldier tanking multiple rockets point blank to rocket jump)

Most mercs do die with 3/4 hits from their mele weapons if that's the case so we are not far off from that realm of durability.
Buddy, you can beat FASTER and STRONGER weapons.
Weapons are not an instant win. They require a person to control them, who must aim, have accuracy, skill, speed reaction, etc.
It would be different if you launched a freakin' nuke at me; there's nothing I can do. But projectiles traveling in a straight line are completely plausible. I repeat, that's how old wars worked (since all the crap is now handled by drones).
Ok, by wars i meant normal ass tf2 matches where they shoot each other, like the one below (with less bs).


These were the gravel wars they were not like the vietnam war, it was pretty much threated like a 9/5 for most mercs as you can see in the comic (this scene also collegates itself with the rocket jumping thing because we can see soldier on the bridge, and the only way of getting him in that position is by rocket jumping).

This was the conflict, 2 teams full of mfs (about 9) shooting each others for hours if not days in a relativly confined space that sometime is half a football field, now introduce weapons that can one shot them to one team while the other doesn't, what happens then?

?
Not what I mean at all.
Your argument is that it is capable of air-blasting projectiles, and this is only allowed because in the game the speed of these weapons is very slow, and we know that this speed cannot exceed 90mph.
That is not an argument to say that the mercs, the game is slowed down to make so we do understand what's going on, i'm just focusing on the fact that Pyro can airblast projectiles, there's no hu problem because in this case it doens't need to be addressed.

Ok tell me what is wrong with this logic:

  1. Character A has a projectile that has repetitly implied to go at a certain speed.
  2. Character B can parry said projectile that goes at that speed from any range.
  3. Character B has the speed of that projectile as reaction speed.
Literally the reason of the current scaling for the mercs, what does change here exactly here in this case?

Because from what i'm reading you are just saing that they don't scale because we can see the projectiles.

Regardless i've already told you that we are not using in game scaling, only abilities that the mercs got, in this case, Pyro's airblast ability to push back object is also referred in the weapon description.

Also, i never saw a game on vsw that is downgrated to Subsonic/Superhuman because in game the projectile are slower in game while having way higher speeds of what in game they are capable of straight up stated (unless there are really specific problems like in the hu case).
I couldn't link multiple links, so I will put the more relevants.





Not really. I put six examples of them getting destroyed.

One of whitch we have a guy who's main ability is to oneshot ppl with headshots, also i could pull you out this the Meet the medic short there are scenes of the RED team tanking multiple rockets at once.

This is because in these shorts they try to make the RED team look cool, if the entire BLU team just turned around and started blasting it wouldn't be really be cool for them.

Or the fact that Demo would have realistically died in the scene with the sentry, because dying as the protagonist of that short would have not be cool for his img.

BLU team in the meet the team videos is used to make the mercs look cool, while in reality they are relative because both sides still were on a tie almost 120 years later and would have continued this war for god knows how long.

Because the gravel wars (as i said) are literally 9 dudes fighting in a random ass desert arena that is like a football court worth of space.
 
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Uhm, didn't Soldier also have some kind of Damage Reduction when doing Rocket-jump?
This should be added as a ability and considered if we're saying he scales to his rockets.
That's almost certainly a gameplay mechanic, with the most well-known glitch being that if there's an enemy near you when you rocket jump, it don't use Rocket Jump damage, you hit yourself for like 80.

Also like, the comics literally treat Rocket Jumping as a form of movement beyond Soldier.
 
That's almost certainly a gameplay mechanic, with the most well-known glitch being that if there's an enemy near you when you rocket jump, it don't use Rocket Jump damage, you hit yourself for like 80.

Also like, the comics literally treat Rocket Jumping as a form of movement beyond Soldier.
source for this
Gonna come in and say, a Rocket Jump is performed by Crouching, jumping, then shooting a rocket at your feet preferably in the opposite direction you're going, all at the same time... but there are techniques that let you just jump off walls and that probably qualifies for scaling.
 
The only thing I can give you the point is that yeah the turret destruction is seen before, but it is still while Soldier is in mid-air, not before, which is also supported by the orange charm. Even if there was a figure of the missile, you mentioned that it's later, so I don't see that it contributes to your point either.
So, there's no support to see the explosion take place with Soldier at the epicenter.
It actually starts fragmenting when Soldier begins moving upwards, go frame by frame and you'll see.

It's clearly supposed to be the rocket jump, I don't know what else to say.
 
I mean, the OP is arguing that mercenaries scales from all weapons???
Yeah, they scale to the weapons that they are consistently shown to tank in game and in lore.

All the showing in the meet the teams are made to make the characters of focus look cool, and it wouldn't be cool for them to run in a sentry and die.

And since when is gameplay not good for scaling characters that tank their weapons? TF2 is a verse that has shown that they are capable of tanking the weapons they fight with:







(they die afterwards but that's after already taking multiple rockets)

Demo sticky jumping (it's like rocket jumping but use stikybombs instead of rockets).

Weapons who's whole gimmic is exploding you and your opponet without u dying in the process

The whole Robot war campain is them against hundreds of Robots that have their exact same equipment and abilities that they fight directly

And comics that heavly imply that they can tank these weapons for extended periods of time while fighting robots that are comparable to themself

Another weapon gimmic is the begger bazzuka blowing up a rocket directly to the user but not killing him (there are other cases like this but i think i got my point with these)

Soldier and Zathana desmantling the robots with his bare hands doing the same damage if not more than actually armed ppl

Also i would like to point out why each exaple you proposed are exeptions:

  1. The scene in meet the Demo was performed with 15+ stickies, therefore yes they are going to die with those many.
  2. Sniper main stick is that he's capable of oneshotting people with one headshoot.
  3. Want to point out that when heavy was shooting we can see a sentry on his right ,rockets coming from behind him and also varius granates from demo on the floor, so it's likely that it was a team feat more than others.
 
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This is all I got to say on the whole "People don't scale to rockets FULLY" thing. Watch it. And remember that the Cow Mangler is a reskin of stock with an infinite clip.
 
mainly the FTL, i haven't kept up with the rest as much.
Ok but i would like to add something.

"Your argument is that it is capable of air-blasting projectiles, and this is only allowed because in the game the speed of these weapons is very slow, and we know that this speed cannot exceed 90mph."

His proposition is based on the fact that in game these projectiles are slow (about 90 mph), in this thread and in others we have came to the understanding that in game speed is not consistent.

With this thread i'm demonstrating the fact that the projectiles can be reacted without using in game speeds, only by the fact that there's an ability that makes so that the Pyro can airblast and react to projectiles, this is also the method used for the speed of the verse.

Now, based on what he said we should give Subsonic reaction/combat speed to the verse, but i don't think there's a verse on this wiki that gives the value of the projectile in game that has speed values stated.

With this thread i'm just applying the same logic that the current scaling has.
 
Ok but i would like to add something.

"Your argument is that it is capable of air-blasting projectiles, and this is only allowed because in the game the speed of these weapons is very slow, and we know that this speed cannot exceed 90mph."

His proposition is based on the fact that in game these projectiles are slow (about 90 mph), in this thread and in others we have came to the understanding that in game speed is not consistent.

With this thread i'm demonstrating the fact that the projectiles can be reacted without using in game speeds, only by the fact that there's an ability that makes so that the Pyro can airblast and react to projectiles, this is also the method used for the speed of the verse.

Now, based on what he said we should give Subsonic reaction/combat speed to the verse, but i don't think there's a verse on this wiki that gives the value of the projectile in game that has speed values stated.

With this thread i'm just applying the same logic that the current scaling has.
Okay but like, these weapons are being used to threaten characters. If you're saying gameplay abilities are indicative of lore abilities then you have to admit that all of gameplay has canon repercussions, which means you've got these allegedly FTL characters choosing to wield Subsonic to Transonic weaponry against one another, which makes no sense. It isn't much less questionable to say their ability to react to the faster stuff is an outlier, or that the speeds are just not consistent to what they would realistically be.

Being able to airblast EM waves is also like... highly questionable.
 
Okay but like, these weapons are being used to threaten characters. If you're saying gameplay abilities are indicative of lore abilities then you have to admit that all of gameplay has canon repercussions, which means you've got these allegedly FTL characters choosing to wield Subsonic to Transonic weaponry against one another, which makes no sense. It isn't much less questionable to say their ability to react to the faster stuff is an outlier, or that the speeds are just not consistent to what they would realistically be.

Being able to airblast EM waves is also like... highly questionable.
There could be other advantages that the slower weapons have, and they didn't get these weapons until a spaceship from another dimension crashed into Teufort, so they didn't always have a choice to use them.
 
Okay but like, these weapons are being used to threaten characters. If you're saying gameplay abilities are indicative of lore abilities then you have to admit that all of gameplay has canon repercussions, which means you've got these allegedly FTL characters choosing to wield Subsonic to Transonic weaponry against one another, which makes no sense. It isn't much less questionable to say their ability to react to the faster stuff is an outlier, or that the speeds are just not consistent to what they would realistically be.
You are right, but we do run to another problem if we take this logic, if we introduce weapons that are way above the mercs both in power and in speed they would have won the Gravel War, there's not much you can do against some dude who can pretty much one shot you and bliz you in an instant.

That way the RED team would have won the conflict pretty easly, but they didn't.

Also the mercs have some weapons that are faster and stronger than the cowmangler (Like the Direct hit which has 80% more projectile speed and 25% more desructive power, or the liberty launcher whitch also has 40% more projectile speed), weapons in tf2 have their good and their bad, for example the Cowmangler has a damage reduction against sentries (which can canonically hold entire team from a point if not dealt proprerly), while other rockets are perfect to destroy sentries from far away.

That's why they switch up weapons, because there isn't really a weapon that is the best, if a weapon doesn't work on a situation they have a wide arsenal of weapons from choosing.
Being able to airblast EM waves is also like... highly questionable.
Ok, to that airblast has shown the capability to reflect stuff that should not be reflectable quiete some times, to stuff like electricity, fire or the fact that they can menage to make a rocket do a 180° is also not the most notmal thing in the world as i'm pretty sure it would explode with the high air pressure.
 
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There could be other advantages that the slower weapons have, and they didn't get these weapons until a spaceship from another dimension crashed into Teufort, so they didn't always have a choice to use them.
Also that, i can understand the reasoning for the doubts in the FTL scaling but the fact that the mercs have weapons that are stronger and faster than the cowmangler also demonstrates that in verse the weapon is relativly comparable to other weapons the mercs posses.
 
You are right, but we do run to another problem if we take this logic, if we introduce weapons that are way above the mercs both in power and in speed they would have won the Gravel War, there's not much you can do against some dude who can pretty much one shot you and bliz you in an instant.
You do realize that all IRL gun combat is done with weapons that can one-shot and blitz you?
That's why they switch up weapons, because there isn't really a weapon that is the best, if a weapon doesn't work on a situation they have a wide arsenal of weapons from choosing.
Yeah but if they're FTL and the weapons aren't then they're literally millions of times faster meaning that any kind of anti-personnel weapon is going to have practically no use case, it'd be like trying to kill people with something that moves at the speed of a snail. If the idea is that every weapon is relativistic to FTL then I would ask why that's a better assumption than saying the allegedly SoL ones are simply not that fast.
Ok, to that airblast has shown the capability to reflect stuff that should not be reflectable quiete some times, to stuff like electricity, fire or the fact that they can menage to make a rocket do a 180° is also not the most notmal thing in the world as i'm pretty sure it would explode with the high air pressure.
Fire being pushed back by air is actually entirely realistic. But sure.
 
I'd agree that they should remain subsonic. There are cases in the comics, like when Classic Sniper dies, where non-FTL things blitz them.
 
You do realize that all IRL gun combat is done with weapons that can one-shot and blitz you?
Yes, but there are some difference to it:

A gun doesn't have a range that can ingulf multiple ppl at once and kill them, getting hit by a gun is mortal on most spots you could get hit from, but unless it hits your vital organs or head you can survive (altho injured and in excruciatingpain).

Things change when you get them guns that have 4 meters of diameter where they straight up kills you.

Yeah but if they're FTL and the weapons aren't then they're literally millions of times faster meaning that any kind of anti-personnel weapon is going to have practically no use case, it'd be like trying to kill people with something that moves at the speed of a snail. If the idea is that every weapon is relativistic to FTL then I would ask why that's a better assumption than saying the allegedly SoL ones are simply not that fast.
Because scaling the weapons speed to anything else would be an even bigger assumption than this argument:

  • RPG-7 scaling assumes that the rocket launcher that Soldier uses is the real RPG-7 altho it was never straight up confirmed.
  • HU scaling does always makes always the same assumption as before +adding every stated game speed scaled to the mercs travel speed (and i think you would have a problem with relativistic scaling for the mercs running speed).
In the contrary of the 2 presented scaling my assumptions are based on stuff that the game/lore states.
Fire being pushed back by air is actually entirely realistic. But sure.
You can't say to me that it's a normal behavior that it goes right back instead of exploding due of the air pressure.

I'd agree that they should remain subsonic. There are cases in the comics, like when Classic Sniper dies, where non-FTL things blitz them.
The tfc mercs got for the most part blized, (also tfc sniper in that scene looked like he thought he could have gotten out of the situation by talking) , so they wouldn't scale to the mercs.
 
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unrelated, guys my tablet just arrived.

I'M WRITING FROM MY FREACKING TABLET

YEPPIE

like, i can write from my tablet to my pc, it's so cool man
 
Yes, but there are some difference to it:

A gun doesn't have a range that can ingulf multiple ppl at once and kill them, getting hit by a gun is mortal on most spots you could get hit from, but unless it hits your vital organs or head you can survive (altho injured and in excruciatingpain).

Things change when you get them guns that have 4 meters of diameter where they straight up kills you.
Not really. Rocket launchers exist in real life and they're pretty comparable to how the Cow Mangler functions, and indeed they aren't something people can dodge or hope to survive. Not that the second part is even relevant, if you get shot in combat you're functionally out of the engagement even if you manage to survive.
RPG-7 scaling assumes that the rocket launcher that Soldier uses is the real RPG-7 altho it was never straight up confirmed.
This is in no way a bigger assumption compared to saying these EM waves are realistically portrayed to move at SoL speed. You're still assuming something is behaving realistically, just something much less obvious than bullets and rockets moving at expected speeds.
 
I agree with Armor here. Just... make those not be FTL. or anywhere near FTL.
 
Not really. Rocket launchers exist in real life and they're pretty comparable to how the Cow Mangler functions, and indeed they aren't something people can dodge or hope to survive. Not that the second part is even relevant, if you get shot in combat you're functionally out of the engagement even if you manage to survive.
But the mercs can survive rockets in verse (as we can see in the meet the medic shorts), one of the main point of tf2 is rocket jumping is one of the most fundemental part of the game and of soldier's character.

Ok. i'm fine if you have your doubts in the FTL scaling ,but are we good at least to scale these weapons to the mercs phisically? as they can still injure ppl who tank these and also they don't get one shotted themself (the feats that are listed about the cow mangler happened in one hit and with a non direct hit).
This is in no way a bigger assumption compared to saying these EM waves are realistically portrayed to move at SoL speed. You're still assuming something is behaving realistically, just something much less obvious than bullets and rockets moving at expected speeds.
Idk if u saw that but i've also added some lightning feats with the Ball o' lightning to sweeten the pill a lil for the ftl scaling
Boll o' Lightning explaination:
One of merasmus spells (he doens't use it but he posesses directly the spell itself) that the mercs use is the Boll o' lightning, this spell consiststs on shooting an electric like projectile that sucks on the mercs in.

Now there are several factors that suggests that this is real lightinig:

These 2 that i've shown are both projectile based weapons, these types of weapons have specific models that can be see by the player, and it wouldn't make sense that the mercs aren't capable of dodging said projectile when they are in fact capable of perciving the existance of said projectiles.
I propose an alternative for the speed scaling so we can make both party's happy:

  • Marvel Rivals (also similar case as they both are online shooter games) has ran into the same problem some time ago, where they got 1 relativistic calc (wolverine jumping at the moon feat) altho the verse best speed feat at the rime was Supersonic, they solved this problem by giving everyone "Supersonic combat speed, possibly Relativistic combat speed", so how about we do the same thing here? This way we don't have to make assumptions with "they have FTL weapons and they can still fight against them so every weapon is FTL" ,the "they have FTL weapons but they still use subsonic+/supersonic+ weapons" or the fact that these weapons are confirmed to shoot something that moves at Sol speed. So this way we aren't leaving no elephant in the room.


And i do belive that the arguments that have been presented are pretty solid and don't leave much room from ambiguiuty on the proof that these weapons use elecromagnetic waves/radiations:


The cowmangler is also stated to be in game as a "focused wave projector" and it's also referred as "wave weaponary" in the introduction section of the victory pack, and considering the setting sci-fi of the weapon it shouldn't be a strech to say the burp it's referring to electromagnetic waves (reminder that electromagnetic waves move at the speed of light).

The cow mangler 5000 who not only produces a projectile similar energy beam attack that can be air-blasted and therefore being reacted upon (want to point out that the fact that airblast works on the cowmangler isn't something that disqualifies it from being a radiation based attack, as we got the same weapon deflecting electricity based attacks and other projectiles that shouln't be effected in that way like fireballs),we got statemets for other weapons that come with the Cowmangler 5000 like "Blasting out rapid pulses of high amplitude, cross spectrum radiation has never been so convenient!" whitch not only confirms that this weapon shoots radiation but also implies that other weapons can do that too.

And the only 2 projectiles that are similar to the Cowmangler 5000 also go at the speed of light (AKA the Pomson itself and the The Righteous Bison) so i think it wouldn't be much of a strech assume that the cow mangler shoots radiation too.


So, what do you think about Supersonic+ up to Hypersonic combat speed, possibly FTL combat speed
 
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No. FTL gone entirely. For everything.
we still have weapons that do have Sol attack speed confirmed, so that will be unorthodox.

I suggest that we do like marvel rivals because it's not something u can just say "it doesn't exist"
 
we still have weapons that do have Sol attack speed confirmed, so that will be unorthodox.

I suggest that we do like marvel rivals because it's not something u can just say "it doesn't exist"
Or you can say "It's an outlier and every other feat is subsonic-hypersonic" and call it a day.
 
Or you can say "It's an outlier and every other feat is subsonic-hypersonic" and call it a day.
or you can do like marvel rivals and call it a day.

Look, if it was something extreamly ambiguous to prove i would agree, but that's quiete hard and solid evidence to debunk.
 
or you can do like marvel rivals and call it a day.

Look, if it was something extreamly ambiguous to prove i would agree, but that's quiete hard and solid evidence to debunk.
What is the difference between the hypersonic calc and FTL, then you have your answer.
 
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