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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

I also don't think Mephiles is a non-issue since he can easily block and counter a full barrage of Shadow's attacks, and only while using one hand. That feat would require at least close stats to manage on his own.
 
Mephiles can be explained away by how he absorbs abilities from being in someone’s shadow, he could have gone into Shadow’s shadow at the start of the Shadow Generations fight and absorbed his strength
 
Just a heads up, this thread has been closed by an admin.
I'm writing mainly so I don't forget that the discussion about fighting game mechanics in the Riders is still pending.
 
Mephiles can be explained away by how he absorbs abilities from being in someone’s shadow, he could have gone into Shadow’s shadow at the start of the Shadow Generations fight and absorbed his strength
Possibly, but unlike in 06 we don't see this happen from what I can tell. He also doesn't use any of Shadow's abilities here that he didn't already do in 06, I think. I also don't know if we Know that Mephiles can take someone's strength like that. I could be wrong.
 
Mephiles can be explained away by how he absorbs abilities from being in someone’s shadow, he could have gone into Shadow’s shadow at the start of the Shadow Generations fight and absorbed his strength
original-bald-man-staring-meme-v0-bnhoea3i5k0g1.jpeg
 
If we get a Season 2 of CrossWorlds DLC ( both paid non-SEGA characters+vehicles+stages and free SEGA/Sonic characters+vehicles ) what would you like to see?
Okay, hear me out: they do a Smash Ballot type of deal where they let fans vote for who they wanna see get added. It probably won't happen, but I'm genuinely curious how that would play out...
 
I also don't think Mephiles is a non-issue since he can easily block and counter a full barrage of Shadow's attacks, and only while using one hand. That feat would require at least close stats to manage on his own.
It's a non-issue in my point of view since I don't think Shadow is super amped like everyone here does.
 
I think Shadow is amped even when with only partial Doom abilities because beating Metal Overlord in base is way too ******* stupid for scaling lmao

Also its loosely implied by Black Doom iirc and even Shadow said he wants to beat Sonic with his own stuff, tho these might only reference abilities.
 
I think Shadow is amped even when with only partial Doom abilities because beating Metal Overlord in base is way too ******* stupid for scaling lmao

Also its loosely implied by Black Doom iirc and even Shadow said he wants to beat Sonic with his own stuff, tho these might only reference abilities.
He meant he doesn’t think Overlord is as strong as he’s rated here on the wiki either
 
If we get a Season 2 of CrossWorlds DLC ( both paid non-SEGA characters+vehicles+stages and free SEGA/Sonic characters+vehicles ) what would you like to see?
Also, I never actually answered this, but my most wanted racer is Billy Hatcher. Problem is, that would require Sega to acknowledge that he exists...
 
Like technically Neo could casually bust out Kaioken x 100 lol
Metal Sonic pulls out regular Kaioken and starts winning but Sonic taunts him into trying to win harder. Metal then uses Kaioken x100 and explodes immediately despite the super form.

Plot armor win achieved.

Edit: But really though Metal Sonic with Cell's bio-data would be OP
 
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He meant he doesn’t think Overlord is as strong as he’s rated here on the wiki either
I'll be honest. I too think that Overlord shouldn't be Tier 1, but only scaling to the highest end of Tier 2.

Probably a hot take, but I see the scaling as an outlier.
Outside of him, IIRC, there's zero Tier 1 stuff for Peak Super Forms during the Classic and Adventure Era.

Overall, only a complete Doom Shadow should be Tier 1.
 


Genuinely could Super Sonic beat Super Neo with Cell's data? Like technically Neo could casually bust out Kaioken x 100 lol

No, Sonic is not beating a version of Neo who's equal to him and also has the busted ass skills of Cell, especially if that Neo is bloodlusted like what he'd become via being pressed hard enough due to having any of the traits that came with copying Cell.
 
I also don't think Mephiles is a non-issue since he can easily block and counter a full barrage of Shadow's attacks, and only while using one hand. That feat would require at least close stats to manage on his own.
Actually, he doesn't do so physically.

He uses a barrier to fend off his attacks, like the barriers he used in 06. So he isn't no-diffing Shadow's attacks there, he's using a shield to block them entirely.
zI9OidB.png
 
Isnt real issue with AD the whole Classic Sonic shenanigans because Classic somehow keeps up with modern stuff?
Even without assuming a jump of several tiers, all the strength growth statements would be a glaring issue to that regardless.

Games like Sonic Battle at least set a narrative precedent for explosive growths in power, ala Sonic telling Rouge "I've got things/people to protect" in response to her saying he got stronger at one point; something that actually foreshadows Sonic's jump in power to match Emerl in order to protect the Earth (this game's writing was fire frfr).

Then there's the infamous "more powerful every second" line from Forces. So, overall, Classic Sonic jumping to Modern Sonic's level at the very least has some precedent to it.
 
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Even without assuming a jump of several tiers, all the strength growth statements would be a glaring issue to that regardless.

Games like Sonic Battle at least set a narrative precedent for explosive growths in power, ala Sonic telling Rouge "I've got things/people to protect" in response to her saying he got stronger at one point; something that actually foreshadows Sonic's jump in power to match Emerl in order to protect the Earth.
See its not the problem with Classic getting AD, its the fact that Classic getting AD means retroactively Classic would be way stronger and should sweep past enemies even easier, but they wont which implies past enemies scale to modern enemies, so it creates a feefback loop where past always gets stronger and stronger and stronger...

...unless we use Gerald's theory of time fixing itself so Classic just convieniently gets weaker so dont think about it lol
 
See its not the problem with Classic getting AD, its the fact that Classic getting AD means retroactively Classic would be way stronger and should sweep past enemies even easier, but they wont which implies past enemies scale to modern enemies, so it creates a feefback loop where past always gets stronger and stronger and stronger...

...unless we use Gerald's theory of time fixing itself so Classic just convieniently gets weaker so dont think about it lol
That is unironically what we do KEK.

This was easier back when Classic Sonic was a different Sonic, as that's the direction they were going at the time from what it seems. Now, since it's back to 1 Sonic, there are some narrative issues going back to some of these games lol.
 
Okay hypothetical matchup, who you guys get winning between a hypothetical Super Doom Wings Shadow with his Inhibitor Rings removed and Starfall Super Sonic?
 
The AD stuff is kinda stupid

I’m completely fine with power growth, or high power growth in general, I just think it’s silly how characters become far more powerful in such a short time
The Sonic cast's AD is what it is and there's no way around it. Honestly, it wouldn't be as egregious if we didn't have canon material trying to portray the characters in a more grounded fashion. The shit that writers do is really annoying cuz they ignore the games themselves to artificially create stakes. Like with IDW Sage recently
 
See its not the problem with Classic getting AD, its the fact that Classic getting AD means retroactively Classic would be way stronger and should sweep past enemies even easier, but they wont which implies past enemies scale to modern enemies, so it creates a feefback loop where past always gets stronger and stronger and stronger...

...unless we use Gerald's theory of time fixing itself so Classic just convieniently gets weaker so dont think about it lol
Sonic Forces' plot is kinda just broken so I don't try to rationalize its writing.

Sonic's past self is sent to the future and experiences the events of the game yet Modern Sonic clearly doesn't have foreknowledge of the game's events.
 
Okay hypothetical matchup, who you guys get winning between a hypothetical Super Doom Wings Shadow with his Inhibitor Rings removed and Starfall Super Sonic?
I'd go with Sonic on this one... even if i think that Shadow would prob be stronger... Super Sonic Cyber would pull it of, imo
 
Okay hypothetical matchup, who you guys get winning between a hypothetical Super Doom Wings Shadow with his Inhibitor Rings removed and Starfall Super Sonic?
I'd go with Sonic on this one... even if i think that Shadow would prob be stronger... Super Sonic Cyber would pull it of, imo
 
Sonic Forces' plot is kinda just broken so I don't try to rationalize its writing.

Sonic's past self is sent to the future and experiences the events of the game yet Modern Sonic clearly doesn't have foreknowledge of the game's events.
It was perfectly functional when Classic was from another dimension :^)
 
Honestly I really don’t like Metal Overlord > peak Super Sonic, due to how awkward it makes Gens scaling + the existence of Master Overlord being a logically comparable form that’s actually apparently way weaker based on the profiles. Not much can be done about it though as I don’t think there are many (if any) direct contradictions for Metal Overlord’s upscaling.

If only they kept in that Shadow Gens line of Shadow stating Sonic was stronger than Metal Overlord
 
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Honestly I really don’t like Metal Overlord > peak Super Sonic, due to how awkward it makes Gens scaling + the existence of Master Overlord being a logically comparable form that’s actually apparently way weaker based on the profiles. Not much can be done about it though as I don’t think there are many (if any) direct contradictions for Metal Overlord’s upscaling.

If only they kept in that Shadow Gens line of Shadow stating Sonic was stronger than Metal Overlord
Blame Sonic Heroes for unironically giving Metal Overlord a shit ton of feats and implications towards surpassing Super Sonic all within about several minutes between each other.
 
The Sonic cast's AD is what it is and there's no way around it. Honestly, it wouldn't be as egregious if we didn't have canon material trying to portray the characters in a more grounded fashion.
In all fairness the AD is something that most people probably don't notice for the most part.
The shit that writers do is really annoying cuz they ignore the games themselves to artificially create stakes.
The worst and funniest part is that they make some of the most contrived stakes possible and yet almost every time they could write a situation where stakes can be believably high and make perfect sense they waste it. With some exceptions. They do get stakes right sometimes like with the Urban Warfare arc or certain parts of the Metal Virus Arc. In particular I thought the part where the cast needed to get the Chaos Emeralds from the Zeti was well handled. But for some examples where stakes could have been believably made but got squandered.

Master Overlord, what did the cast need to do to beat him? Did Sonic need to reach the Master Emerald on Master Overlords body to try and go super with it because Master Overlord is too powerful for them to beat? No. Did they need to defeat him with a clever strategy? Also no. Instead they jumped him and tore him apart in 3 pages even though a giant metal dragon who can probably still copy people's powers should be a huge problem.

Or in Bad Guys when Starline needed to break into a prison to aquire his team. Did Starline need to go through some interesting process to successfully infiltrate the prison? No he just hypnotized the warden and that was it. When Zavok, Mimic, Rough, Tumble and Starline needed to escape did they need to go through some extreme obstacles from the prison that is presumably designed for super powered inmates Tai Lung style? No it was just a regular prison so it's dumb that it could even hold Zavok to begin with.



For reference here's Tai Lungs prison break from Kung Fu Panda. Super powered villains breaking out of a prison that is designed to contain them can be really cool and yet the prison in IDW was just a normal prison that got torn through like tissue paper.

Overall the stakes in IDW are just fundamentally backwards as situations that should generate believable stakes get resolved quickly or aren't utilized while situations that have absolutely no buisness being a challenge to the cast get attention even if it makes members of the cast less competent to do so.
Like with IDW Sage recently
I should have felt the monkey's paw curl when I was excited to see Sage in IDW.

They put my girl on fraud watch just so she could be cute with Belle as quickly as possible 😥
 
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Honestly I really don’t like Metal Overlord > peak Super Sonic, due to how awkward it makes Gens scaling + the existence of Master Overlord being a logically comparable form that’s actually apparently way weaker based on the profiles. Not much can be done about it though as I don’t think there are many (if any) direct contradictions for Metal Overlord’s upscaling.

If only they kept in that Shadow Gens line of Shadow stating Sonic was stronger than Metal Overlord
You should be lucky you missed The Metal Overlord scaling war last year. It went on for months on end of people debating if he should scale to the Tier 1 stuff.
Unfortunately that side won.
 
Isnt real issue with AD the whole Classic Sonic shenanigans because Classic somehow keeps up with modern stuff? But as long as thats ignored its fine?
The big thing is that there's examples of power growth in the exact same games Classic Sonic shows up in

Along with what others pointed out, there's also the Death Egg Robot fight in Forces which states Eggman is "overclocking" the Phantom Ruby, making it at least as powerful as Phantom King was, who was a Super level threat, yet base characters can fight and harm it.
 
You should be lucky you missed The Metal Overlord scaling war last year. It went on for months on end of people debating if he should scale to the Tier 1 stuff.
Man I wonder what the next scaling war will be about. Watch it be about Metal Overlord again.
Okay hypothetical matchup, who you guys get winning between a hypothetical Super Doom Wings Shadow with his Inhibitor Rings removed and Starfall Super Sonic?
Starfall Super Sonic is my bet. I think Sonic gets more useful powers from Cyber Corruption than Shadow gets from Doom Powers (Shadow gets mostly mobility options that are redundant for a super form).
Also I don't know how powerful the Cyber Corruption is without being stacked on top of a super form so maybe I could argue that the Doom Powers are more definitively a super form tier increase and therefore (Doom Shadow + Super Form) > (Cyber Corruption + Super Form aka Starfall Super Sonic)
But with how much stronger The End is than regular Super Sonic that assumption that the Cyber Corruption isn't a super form tier amp in it's own right seems doubtful so with no clear argument for Shadow to take power Sonic would end up with even stats but the better abilities and arguably skill to win.

Side note: That is all assuming that stacking a Super Form on top of Doom Powers wouldn't make Shadow blow up like removing his Inhibitor Rings would.

Edit: My dumb ass wrote that post but didn't see that the original question specified that the Inhibitor Rings are removed by default. So Shadow blows up I guess lol.
 
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Actually, he doesn't do so physically.

He uses a barrier to fend off his attacks, like the barriers he used in 06. So he isn't no-diffing Shadow's attacks there, he's using a shield to block them entirely.
zI9OidB.png
He's also holding that shield up with his hand though, so I still feel this is tied to AP.
 
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