Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

[TheStinkeer]

I do wonder why among so many Sonic works they work to make canon, Blade of Courage is one they don't make acnon.

My conspiracy theory is that Sonic Team realized Blade of Courage made Sonic look a little too cool so they had to shoot it out back, then made Sonic Rumble canon with a worse cutscene in order to make up for their mistake of making Sonic remotely cool

 

[ShakeResounding]

Question for you Blade of Courage readers; how do you feel about Yuuta as a character? Is he a cringe self-insert? An actually interesting character? Do you like him?

I personally think he fits for the story they're telling with the Sonic manga, but I do think it'd be cool to see him in things like CrossWorlds as either decal stickers or even as a driver.

 

[TMaakkonen]

I wonder if BoC originally being Japan only affected canon status.

Or maybe its some legal stuff. Its a Corocoro manga, right? Its not like Paramount movies are canon either. Maybe it being continuation of adaptation is issue too. The problem is prolly sth boring like this rather than artistic.

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

I wonder if BoC originally being Japan only affected canon status.

Or maybe its some legal stuff. Its a Corocoro manga, right? Its not like Paramount movies are canon either. Maybe it being continuation of adaptation is issue too. The problem is prolly sth boring like this rather than artistic.

Didn’t they say something about regionally exclusive media being non canon

 

[Jimmy.robinson.5099]

I do wonder why among so many Sonic works they work to make canon, Blade of Courage is one they don't make acnon.

I've seen at least one conspiracy claiming it's because it has humans and Sega for whatever reason wants human to be kept to the bare minimum in canon media.

 

[Omegabronic]

In multiple games where super sonic is story focused, if you have less than 50 rings in the gameplay segment before turning super, the game turns you super and gives you 50 rings. That likely happens in Sonic 2 as well.

So you are saying the "time limit" is Ring Based, but also saying that it can... magically create Rings if it wants... aka, no time limit? I'll keep asking until you give me one, give a statement that corroborates what you are

It’s basic logic. If you walk, you naturally exert more energy than if you run or get into a fistfight, and thus run out of stamina faster. Stamina in this case is represented by the ring count or transformation length, which is always shorter in Super Sonic battles compared to him just flying around.

Stop dodging the question

Again, evidence for this to be the case? Sounds a lot like headcanon, where are you even getting this specific mechanics for Super forms?

Where are you getting that it is "stamina/energy" based? Also stop dodging the point

No no, what makes you think the timelimit is energy based? Specially given the ammount of times we are told the emeralds give "infinite energy" to the user

Your answer to the above was

It’s just that Sonic only seems to have a short time limit when he’s actually, fighting. If he’s just causally moving around doing nothing, staying in the form appears less strenuous, going off Frontiers and Advance.

You didn't even addressed it, why are you avoiding the point instead of answering it?

 

[Executor_N0]

Didn’t they say something about regionally exclusive media being non canon

They are inconsistent with it, as I don't think anyone would think "English-only content" can count, but not Japanese (Like, Sonic Rivals is canon, even though it was never released in Japan), and they also asked Chris about this maybe changing since the manga is being localized, but he said it won't.

And yet there's the Sonic Channel stories that are Japanese exclusive, but are considered canon, and the same goes for a lot of Sonic Pict comments that have a lot of Japanese exclusive material as well.

 

[LukeChaosBlobz]

They are inconsistent with it, as I don't think anyone would think "English-only content" can count, but not Japanese (Like, Sonic Rivals is canon, even though it was never released in Japan), and they also asked Chris about this maybe changing since the manga is being localized, but he said it won't.

And yet there's the Sonic Channel stories that are Japanese exclusive, but are considered canon, and the same goes for a lot of Sonic Pict comments that have a lot of Japanese exclusive material as well.

Maybe it is set in the same verse as Shadow’s manga and due to the lore contradictions there it can’t be canon?

 

[Executor_N0]

Maybe it is set in the same verse as Shadow’s manga and due to the lore contradictions there it can’t be canon?

If lore contradictions would make something non-canon, so much that is canon wouldn't be

At this point with what is being considered canon, it really makes one wonder why things are canon besides vibes.

You can be consistent and not be canon

You can be inconsistent and be canon

You can be available in a single language and be canon

You can be available in multiple languages and not be canon

There's almost no rhyme or reason for why things are canon or not in Sonic; they just are or are not, and this changes at the staff's whim at any time.

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Doesn't Frontiers have a day/night cycle? From the player's POV, the fights with the Titans tend to last minutes. For Sonic, it should be several hours at the very least (a couple of days at best).

Yep, and it's still passing during Titan fights. Noticed it myself during the Wyvern fight bc I didn't know you could hold the parry until after the fight, and was trying to time it (mostly unsuccessfully) and it took ages for me to kill it

 

[JJSliderman]

You didn't even addressed it, why are you avoiding the point instead of answering it?

What point? Like ofc there’s a time limit, and given that super sonic can stay active even when Sonic is unconscious, it can’t be based solely on his personal stamina, so it likely is a ring based time limit included somewhere.

 

[Issen_Mk_III]

I've recently had the unfortunate experience of becoming aware of ZETA, quite possibly the worst Powerscaler with a platform yet.

 

[Omegabronic]

What point?

You said it was energy/stamina based, I pointed out that the Emeralds explicitly give the user "infinite/unlimited" energy to use... which you didn't addressed

Like ofc there’s a time limit

Again, you didn't proved this... I have been asking for evidence of such "time limit" again and again... yet you never give me one and just assumes there MUST be one... for some reason

, and given that super sonic can stay active even when Sonic is unconscious, it can’t be based solely on his personal stamina, so it likely is a ring based time limit included somewhere.

Or there isn't a time limit to begin with, thus why he can stay in the form during his sleep

 

[Omegabronic]

Yep, and it's still passing during Titan fights. Noticed it myself during the Wyvern fight bc I didn't know you could hold the parry until after the fight, and was trying to time it (mostly unsuccessfully) and it took ages for me to kill it

Pretty sure you can stay like, several weeks worth of days if you REALLY suck at the boss fight lol at least felt like it during a walkthrough of extreme difficulty playthroughs

 

[Omegabronic]

If lore contradictions would make something non-canon, so much that is canon wouldn't be

At this point with what is being considered canon, it really makes one wonder why things are canon besides vibes.

You can be consistent and not be canon

You can be inconsistent and be canon

You can be available in a single language and be canon

You can be available in multiple languages and not be canon

There's almost no rhyme or reason for why things are canon or not in Sonic; they just are or are not, and this changes at the staff's whim at any time.

Meanwhile stuff like Digimon says "Contradictory? Contradiction is canon, so everything fits STOP ASKING HOW IT JUST DOES OKAY?"

 

[Jimmy.robinson.5099]

Meanwhile stuff like Digimon says "Contradictory? Contradiction is canon, so everything fits STOP ASKING HOW IT JUST DOES OKAY?"

But wait, if everything fits, doesn't that mean... NOTHING fits?

 

[MysticMania]

In it's defense IDW has it's highlights.

Frankly I don't think I've disliked a piece of characterization more since "cowards run I win". Genuinely the character we see in issue #85 just doesn't feel like the Sage from Frontiers or CrossWorlds at all and I can't for the life of me remember a time when anxiety specifically was a character flaw to Sage. Then again who knows maybe Sage didn't spontaneously develop an anxiety disorder and a lack of competence in this issue for the plot, but instead Metal Sonic is just canonically scarier than the conceptual embodiment of death and entropy now .

Ah well Sage has been a peak character for years now so I guess it was inevitable that there would be a dud someday. Man I swear "my models did not predict this" when Metal Sonic found a way into the cave and attacked Sage is her "Sonic help me moment" because how on Earth does a hyper intelligent AI not make models for just in case Metal Sonic makes it back into the cave when they just ran into him.

To be fair, Sage has a single game and some lines in a racing title. I honestly don't think we can full stop say "this is who sage is" when her only full appearance before IDW is what's basically her experiencing life for the first time. Even in CrossWorlds she isn't written like Frontiers.

 

[MysticMania]

Stamina in this case is represented by the ring count or transformation length, which is always shorter in Super Sonic battles compared to him just flying around.

I agree with stamina playing a part but not as a preset time limit. Super Sonic passes out in Unleashed's end and Frontiers, so I think the form itself can last forever due to the Chaos Emeralds unlimited energy. The body of the user though is more finite, by comparison.

 

[MysticMania]

I do wonder why among so many Sonic works they work to make canon, Blade of Courage is one they don't make acnon.

Genuinely and honestly wouldn't be surprised if the artist wanted to include humans, and SEGA wouldn't let that be if it was canon.

 

[JJSliderman]

I agree with stamina playing a part but not as a preset time limit. Super Sonic passes out in Unleashed's end and Frontiers, so I think the form itself can last forever due to the Chaos Emeralds unlimited energy. The body of the user though is more finite, by comparison.

It explicitly does not last forever because a mechanic of 90% of super form boss fights is, they run out and forcibly detransform Sonic.

 

[MysticMania]

I'm sorry. Like what a few others have said though, I think that time limit is just Rings, which I don’t think canonically have a say on Super.

 

[ShakeResounding]

It explicitly does not last forever because a mechanic of 90% of super form boss fights is, they run out and forcibly detransform Sonic.

Dude, why are you so weirdly hung up on a game mechanic? There would be literally no stakes if a Super State had no drawback in gameplay. Or have you forgotten that Sonic can LITERALLY re-transform mid-fight after losing dozens of Rings?

We already agree there's a limit of some sort, but your insistence of "RINGSRINGSRINGS" or "Yeah but he detransforms tho!" is getting very obnoxious.

 

[JJSliderman]

Dude, why are you so weirdly hung up on a game mechanic? There would be literally no stakes if a Super State had no drawback in gameplay. Or have you forgotten that Sonic can LITERALLY re-transform mid-fight after losing dozens of Rings?

We already agree there's a limit of some sort, but your insistence of "RINGSRINGSRINGS" or "Yeah but he detransforms tho!" is getting very obnoxious.

If you accept rings as canon, the scene justifying that results in Sonic always dropping to exactly 100 rings while in the super state no matter how many rings he had prior, and making you lose if you have too few rings. Like, the only way we’ve seen super forms time out naturally is by just losing too many rings, everything else is like a forced detransformation. I think Rings probably have something to do with it

 

[Snek]

To be fair, Sage has a single game and some lines in a racing title. I honestly don't think we can full stop say "this is who sage is"

I guess. But even then Sonic Frontiers alone I felt did a great job at establishing how Sage should generally behave and I don't think IDW adheres to the foundations of her character at all and deviates in a direction that is just straight up character assassination. Agree to disagree though.

when her only full appearance before IDW is what's basically her experiencing life for the first time. Even in CrossWorlds she isn't written like Frontiers.

But I'd argue her developments in Sonic Racing Crossworlds felt far more ingrained in what was established in Sonic Frontiers to the point of being natural changes. While IDW, I think, shoehorned in traits that are directly contradictory to what was established in Frontiers. Anyways it's time to poorly attempt to articulate what I feel bothers me so much because god knows characterization discussions are complicated. Apologies in advance.

If I were to describe Sage using Sonic Frontiers alone in single words I'd say she's the following as a foundation.

• Pragmatic
• Loyal
• Curious
• Reserved (Not shy but also not super expressive, somewhere inbetween those)

If I were to describe Sage using Frontiers and CrossWorlds together I'd say she's.

• Pragmatic ️
• Loyal ️
• Curious️
• Reserved ️
• Vain
• Petty

I don't feel the last two added traits at all contradict how she was in Frontiers or overwrite the "foundational four" traits as she did some petty things to Sonic in Frontiers so it's believable that would extend to other characters and as for vanity her holding herself in high regard feels like an extension of her loyalty with how much her identity is dependent on Eggman so her viewing herself as his masterpiece feels right for her character and like it came from something rather than materializing itself from the void.

But then if I were to describe her in IDW I'd say she's.

• Pragmatic
• Loyal ️
• Curious ️ (Curiousity wasn't seen but wasn't contradicted so it gets a check)
• Reserved
• Petty
• Indecisive ️
• Anxious ️

She makes no decisions on her own that really stand out as actually intelligent so it's hard to call her pragmatic in IDW. On top of that while Sage was never easily frightened in Sonic Frontiers, or in Sonic Racing Crossworlds or in the Chaotix Casefiles for some reason in IDW she's constantly surprised and frightened by practically everything that happens enough so that she borderline has a panic attack until Belle hands a solution to her. So genuinely if Sage in Sonic Frontiers is A while later developments are point B how did she go from A  to B in IDW because I can see logic in the progression of Sage's change going from Frontiers to CrossWorlds but I just can't see that same logic in IDW unless you excuse it as "Sage is only a good decision maker when she has data and she's secretly had anxious traits since the very beginning" which is revisionism not constructive character building

 

[MysticMania]

That's understandable.

 

[Snek]

To be fair, Sage has a single game and some lines in a racing title. I honestly don't think we can full stop say "this is who sage is" when her only full appearance before IDW is what's basically her experiencing life for the first time. Even in CrossWorlds she isn't written like Frontiers.

That's understandable.

Well thank you I tried my best with that explanation even if it still probably sounds like rambling.

 

[TheStinkeer]

I've recently had the unfortunate experience of becoming aware of ZETA, quite possibly the worst Powerscaler with a platform yet.

What'd all they do? The most I know abt them is that they scale Dragon Ball and once made a video questioning sonic scaling

 

[Omegabronic]

It explicitly does not last forever because a mechanic of 90% of super form boss fights is, they run out and forcibly detransform Sonic.

Sonic Unleashed, Sonic the Fighters, etc... Honestly that sounds more and more like a mere game mechanic the more one thinks about it... I am on the side that believes a time limit just... doesn't exist, at least not concretely enough for it to actually matter in a fight

 

[JJSliderman]

Sonic Unleashed, Sonic the Fighters, etc... Honestly that sounds more and more like a mere game mechanic the more one thinks about it... I am on the side that believes a time limit just... doesn't exist, at least not concretely enough for it to actually matter in a fight

Two examples vs

At least 20.
And one of those is Unleashed where the Wii version has a time limit.

 

[Omegabronic]

Two examples vs

At least 20.
And one of those is Unleashed where the Wii version has a time limit.

Also Shuffle where he doesn't have one iirc, nor in Sonic R

Do we actually have ANYTHING within the series, that stablishes a time limit as being an actual thing a Super form has? I still don't get why you keep talking as if you have proved it to be a thing... i have been asking again and again for you to prove a time limit... yet you keep dodging and not answering when i ask for said proof... so before you keep insisting on rings, or stamina, or anything else... how about you prove the basis first?

 

[Omegabronic]

Also Shuffle where he doesn't have one iirc, nor in Sonic R

Do we actually have ANYTHING within the series, that stablishes a time limit as being an actual thing a Super form has? I still don't get why you keep talking as if you have proved it to be a thing... i have been asking again and again for you to prove a time limit... yet you keep dodging and not answering when i ask for said proof... so before you keep insisting on rings, or stamina, or anything else... how about you prove the basis first?

Also in Free Riders

 

[JJSliderman]

so before you keep insisting on rings, or stamina, or anything else... how about you prove the basis first?

Like this?

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

It's kinda funny how big a topic of debate this is despite how inconsequential the time limit is in canon. Like a Super Form has never canonically lost a fight because of the time limit lol

 

[JJSliderman]

It's kinda funny how big a topic of debate this is despite how inconsequential the time limit is in canon. Like a Super Form has never canonically lost a fight because of the time limit lol

Cuz they either

• can collect rings randomly scattered around
• can run off somewhere to recharge their ring count

Something not always viable in 1v1s on neutral ground.

 

[Omegabronic]

Like this?

Contradicted by Advance, as the description says the transformation itself consumes a lot of energy, also contradicted by the emeralds verbatim giving unlimited/infinite energy, not consuming energy from the user

Also...

Cuz they either

• can collect rings randomly scattered around
• can run off somewhere to recharge their ring count

The description you gave does not mention rings, so now prove that without relying on game mechanics

Something not always viable in 1v1s on neutral ground.

Cyloop = virtually infinite rings

 

[TMaakkonen]

Deus Ex Machina jewels will not be losing a lot.

Time limit should be real, since Sonic Channel lore just says it has a time limit. Unironically that Sonic 2 point is incredible tho, Sonic becomes Super Sonic after a stage with 0 Rings lmao

Time limit is real, but its not necessarily tied to rings.

 

[MysticMania]

I picture the time limit actually just being a limit on the user's body instead of the form itself if that makes sense.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Question: where is it implied that King Arthur was going to merge Camelot and the underworld together? It says that on his profile, but the scan used doesn’t suggest that at all from what I can see.

 

[JJSliderman]

Contradicted by Advance, as the description says the transformation itself consumes a lot of energy, also contradicted by the emeralds verbatim giving unlimited/infinite energy, not consuming energy from the user

Bro is just determined to take the high end for everything Sonic even when official sources are just saying otherwise.

The description you gave does not mention rings, so now prove that without relying on game mechanics

Prove that rings have no part in it when 90% of super form timeouts that can happen in this game series are through running out of rings, something that characters mention in almost every super sonic boss fight.

Cyloop = virtually infinite rings

Cyloop does not create rings, it digs them up. It does not work on every platform, and also doesn’t work in super form

 

[Theuser789]

I do wonder why among so many Sonic works they work to make canon, Blade of Courage is one they don't make acnon.

I don't trust Chris.