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Sonic General Discussion Zone Act 1: New Frontiers

Masked is somewhat "new".
They have only just started participating in discussions,
but this account is 3 years old
and Masked has been lurking since Link was 3-A.
Whoa, you really have been around for a bit lol. Good to hear that you've been hopping into discussions at last, then!
Masked has appreciated your work on both Sonic the Hedgehog
and, although they disagree with your attempted Mario revision, they also appreciate the effort you put into it
Thanks, dude! That means a lot, and I appteciate your respect on the disagreements regarding Bing Bing Wahoo.

I've noticed a lot of people tend to blame the Sonic fans on this site for why Mario is Tier 6, and it can get very ironic at times lol.
It is good to discuss these topics with good people
Absolutely. It's a refreshing change of pace when a Sonic community has a majority of people who engage in (mostly) meaningful discussion.
 
By the way, what's our stance on the time limit for Super forms? I know we recognize the time limit as canon in the Archie comics, but what about in the games?
We acknowledge there is one, but that it would typically be a non-factor due to the roundabout ways that Super Forms can restore their Rings/Energy.
Do we consider the time limit to be just a game mechanic? (Mostly asking 'cuz Metal Sonic Vs Cell seems to have sparked the debate again)
It probably isn't a game mechanic, but it's also not the 50-second timer that many people like to cap it at for whatever reason.
 
A lot of the so-called Sonic community doesn't actually know Sonic.
Yeah, I feel like both early SatAM/cartoons and mid Era IanFlynn Archie Comics sort of created an image of Sonic that kind of didnt exist. But its hard to argue this because arguing about Sonic's personality is weird topic.

By all accounts Super forms should have time limit, its baked into the lore. The exceptions feel wonky, an unspecified time skip in Advance where we dont see what actually happened and Cyloop generating rings is too gameplayee. Infinite energy no stamina issues could apply within the time limit.
 
They really are showing off the 2010s for this anniversary, huh?


I hate to bring up the IDW canon debate again since I feel like it wasn't that long ago that I last brought it up, but I just saw somebody use THIS VIDEO to try and argue that they aren't canon because it called the IDW characters being added a "crossover". This isn't even copium anymore, it's full blown denial...
 
We acknowledge there is one, but that it would typically be a non-factor due to the roundabout ways that Super Forms can restore their Rings/Energy.

It probably isn't a game mechanic, but it's also not the 50-second timer that many people like to cap it at for whatever reason.
Alright, thanks a lot for the info!
 
By the way, what's our stance on the time limit for Super forms? I know we recognize the time limit as canon in the Archie comics, but what about in the games?

Do we consider the time limit to be just a game mechanic? (Mostly asking 'cuz Metal Sonic Vs Cell seems to have sparked the debate again)
Not canon, he stayed in it for 3 Days during Advance 1
 
Unrelated, but can someone tell me how to post images here? Do I need to upload them somewhere else and then use the respective URL?
 
I still think it's funny how Sonic took so long to return to Earth, like obviously even Advance in a vacuum, returning to earth would not be a problem because he made it from the earth to the moon in under 10 seconds in the prior cutscene. I genuinely think he just went on to explore the cosmos for a bit and honestly that's extremely in-character imo
 
I don't think that is ever implied how it works. That's just headcanon spread on the Death Battle subreddit.
iirc, there was a time Ian said the timelimit was a thing because he thought it would be an absurd for Super Sonic and Super Silver to circle the world in the end of Metal Virus arc, so he asked readers to imagine they were picking rings between the panels to maintain the Super Forms.
 
By the way we've already gone over Sage being very underpowered in IDW but did anyone else also feel that she also acted just a bit strange or out of character in issue #85 as well?
Don't get me wrong some moments with Sage did feel alright or great. Like her smugly telling Belle that she is technically Eggman's "stuff" or her commenting that she had Tails on file as being intelligent to sarcastically roast Sonic but aside from that she felt kind of off.

For example why was she so overtly terrified of Metal Sonic to the point of having an anxiety response? Sure she's practically defenseless now but in Sonic Frontiers whenever Sage was afraid or had something to be afraid of through the entire game she doubled down on being hyper-logical to the extreme. An example of that is when The End was getting out instead of externally panicking Sage immediately resorted to ruthless pragmatism in suggesting that she get Eggman to Cyber Space even if he's locked there forever. Genuinely it felt like Sage's version of an "oh crap" response in Frontiers was vastly different to how she behaved in IDW. Where in Frontiers a scared Sage would fall back on logic to an almost heartless degree in IDW she just unproductively panics until Belle resolves the situation. Oh and Sage brainstorms out loud while her and Belle are supposed to be hiding. Make of that what you will.
On that note the choices Sage made were also really strange. For example how did she not anticipate that Metal Sonic could find his way back into the cave? I don't think it takes a supergenius to worry about that possibility but for some reason Sage never even considered it and was caught off gaurd when Metal Sonic attacked her with her saying that no models predicted that. And if Sage is harmless now while Belle has only limited combat ability why didn't she call out that it's stupid of them to split up when Sonic is the only person who could truly fight against a threat (actually it was Belle who called out that splitting up is stupid)? I'm just saying that in Frontiers pointing out the obvious would be something she'd have done but Sage just doesn't in IDW and instead when Sonic splits off from the group she doesn't try to follow him and just thinks it's "fine" because she needs to take inventory of the stuff the mystery villain stole as if she can't do that later during a time when they have a clue who's lair they are in and have successfully retrieved Metal Sonic.
Additionally why did she drop her gaurd immediately when Metal Sonic "went down" after all she should know how dangerous Metal Sonic is but instead of treating the body like it's radioactive she gets caught off gaurd so badly that she gets kidnapped (and that's while Metal Sonic didn't even take any external damage either that would prevent him from functioning)?


Eh maybe it's just me😐
 
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iirc, there was a time Ian said the timelimit was a thing because he thought it would be an absurd for Super Sonic and Super Silver to circle the world in the end of Metal Virus arc, so he asked readers to imagine they were picking rings between the panels to maintain the Super Forms.
In 2023 he did say the Rings are just gameplay for Super and aren't a canon factor. This link should work.
And death of the author remains strong, nothing wrong with head-canon but when someone has enough authority to convince others their PoV is "correct" that's when it's a problem.
Ian Flynn has said contradictory things before, so take it with a grain of salt unless it's clear he's passing on what Sonic Team themselves told him (like when he's said it outright)
 
No no, what makes you think the timelimit is energy based? Specially given the ammount of times we are told the emeralds give "infinite energy" to the user
It’s just that Sonic only seems to have a short time limit when he’s actually, fighting. If he’s just causally moving around doing nothing, staying in the form appears less strenuous, going off Frontiers and Advance.
 
Kinda off topic, but I think a good narrative way to apply a limit to Super without limiting Super itself is to have something else be at stake during the Super fight. The Ark falling and The End being around are cool examples of there being a feeling of pressure despite the form's invulnerability.

Also, in cases like Adventure 2, Heroes, 06 and Gens, I think it's weird how only some of the people present choose to go Super. IDW made it work in that context I think, but Gens would rather have a full S.T.A.R.S. squad of "that's a homing shot!" instead of having more than two people go Super at once. I imagine this is definitely more because of company rulings and handlings than it is any in universe reasonings, though.
 
It’s just that Sonic only seems to have a short time limit when he’s actually, fighting.
examples?

If he’s just causally moving around doing nothing, staying in the form appears less strenuous, going off Frontiers and Advance.
Evidence that it is strenuous? Also in Advance and Frontiers he just got out of fights... so that logic doesn't track
 
examples?
Every super sonic fight in the games that has a ring time limit that is decisively not several days.
Evidence that it is strenuous? Also in Advance and Frontiers he just got out of fights... so that logic doesn't track
The fact super sonic has to put in effort to deal damage and take hits as opposed to just flying around. And in Advance and Frontiers he could afford to lower the amount of energy he used after the fight, so he could maintain the form longer.
 
By the way we've already gone over Sage being very underpowered in IDW but did anyone else also feel that she also acted just a bit strange or out of character in issue #85 as well?
Don't get me wrong some moments with Sage did feel alright or great. Like her smugly telling Belle that she is technically Eggman's "stuff" or her commenting that she had Tails on file as being intelligent to sarcastically roast Sonic but aside from that she felt kind of off.

For example why was she so overtly terrified of Metal Sonic to the point of having an anxiety response? Sure she's practically defenseless now but in Sonic Frontiers whenever Sage was afraid or had something to be afraid of through the entire game she doubled down on being hyper-logical to the extreme. An example of that is when The End was getting out instead of externally panicking Sage immediately resorted to ruthless pragmatism in suggesting that she get Eggman to Cyber Space even if he's locked there forever. Genuinely it felt like Sage's version of an "oh crap" response in Frontiers was vastly different to how she behaved in IDW. Where in Frontiers a scared Sage would fall back on logic to an almost heartless degree in IDW she just unproductively panics until Belle resolves the situation. Oh and Sage brainstorms out loud while her and Belle are supposed to be hiding. Make of that what you will.
On that note the choices Sage made were also really strange. For example how did she not anticipate that Metal Sonic could find his way back into the cave? I don't think it takes a supergenius to worry about that possibility but for some reason Sage never even considered it and was caught off gaurd when Metal Sonic attacked her with her saying that no models predicted that. And if Sage is harmless now while Belle has only limited combat ability why didn't she call out that it's stupid of them to split up when Sonic is the only person who could truly fight against a threat (actually it was Belle who called out that splitting up is stupid)? I'm just saying that in Frontiers pointing out the obvious would be something she'd have done but Sage just doesn't in IDW and instead when Sonic splits off from the group she doesn't try to follow him and just thinks it's "fine" because she needs to take inventory of the stuff the mystery villain stole as if she can't do that later during a time when they have a clue who's lair they are in and have successfully retrieved Metal Sonic.
Additionally why did she drop her gaurd immediately when Metal Sonic "went down" after all she should know how dangerous Metal Sonic is but instead of treating the body like it's radioactive she gets caught off gaurd so badly that she gets kidnapped (and that's while Metal Sonic didn't even take any external damage either that would prevent him from functioning)?


Eh maybe it's just me😐
IDW is badly written. Read Blade of Courage instead.
 
Every super sonic fight in the games that has a ring time limit that is decisively not several days.

The fact super sonic has to put in effort to deal damage and take hits as opposed to just flying around. And in Advance and Frontiers he could afford to lower the amount of energy he used after the fight, so he could maintain the form longer.
Doesn't Frontiers have a day/night cycle? From the player's POV, the fights with the Titans tend to last minutes. For Sonic, it should be several hours at the very least (a couple of days at best).
 
Additionally, I've finally managed to find a site to read Ch.10.

And... wow. We need more city fights. More of Sonic's lost techniques. It's also funny that SatBoC seems to be more canon than IDW itself when it comes to AD :ROFLMAO:
 
IDW is badly written. Read Blade of Courage instead.
In it's defense IDW has it's highlights.

Frankly I don't think I've disliked a piece of characterization more since "cowards run I win". Genuinely the character we see in issue #85 just doesn't feel like the Sage from Frontiers or CrossWorlds at all and I can't for the life of me remember a time when anxiety specifically was a character flaw to Sage. Then again who knows maybe Sage didn't spontaneously develop an anxiety disorder and a lack of competence in this issue for the plot, but instead Metal Sonic is just canonically scarier than the conceptual embodiment of death and entropy now 🙄.

Ah well Sage has been a peak character for years now so I guess it was inevitable that there would be a dud someday. Man I swear "my models did not predict this" when Metal Sonic found a way into the cave and attacked Sage is her "Sonic help me moment" because how on Earth does a hyper intelligent AI not make models for just in case Metal Sonic makes it back into the cave when they just ran into him.
 
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Okay, okay, okay but really that is all I should say about the Sage thing. For real this time probably. Because the topic is already tired, that much I can tell.

So uh. I've got high hopes for the mystery villain and I think that I'll really like them, at least after IDW issue #86 is over and Sage politely exits the story.
 
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kdski5mwv2pg1.png

WAKU WAKU METAL SONIKKU
 
Okay, okay, okay but really that is all I should say about the Sage thing. For real this time probably. Because the topic is already tired, that much I can tell.

So uh. I've got high hopes for the mystery villain and I think that I'll really like them, at least after IDW issue #86 is over and Sage politely exits the story.
I've been seeing theories that the mystery villain is actually Starline having come back somehow. Not sure yet if I believe those theories or not...
 
I've been seeing theories that the mystery villain is actually Starline having come back somehow. Not sure yet if I believe those theories or not...
Yeah the mystery villain is tech savvy which fits with Starline. And they speak like Starline as well especially with how they referred to Sage as a "marvel" which is kind of reminiscent of how Starline regarded Belle.

Then again Starline wasn't particularly strong without the Tricore and the mystery villain lifted a giant coffin on their back in issue #83 so who knows maybe the writers will throw a curveball with it not being Starline. That or Starline cybernetically augmented himself for a power boost.
 
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Every super sonic fight in the games that has a ring time limit that is decisively not several days.
Which goes down by the same ammount regardless of if he is fighting or not... also in Sonic 2, the debue, he turned Super without ANY rings in the canon cutscene, so those cannot be the time limit

The fact super sonic has to put in effort to deal damage and take hits as opposed to just flying around. And in Advance and Frontiers he could afford to lower the amount of energy he used after the fight, so he could maintain the form longer.
Again, evidence for this to be the case? Sounds a lot like headcanon, where are you even getting this specific mechanics for Super forms?
 
Which goes down by the same ammount regardless of if he is fighting or not... also in Sonic 2, the debue, he turned Super without ANY rings in the canon cutscene, so those cannot be the time limit
In multiple games where super sonic is story focused, if you have less than 50 rings in the gameplay segment before turning super, the game turns you super and gives you 50 rings. That likely happens in Sonic 2 as well.
Again, evidence for this to be the case? Sounds a lot like headcanon, where are you even getting this specific mechanics for Super forms?
It’s basic logic. If you walk, you naturally exert more energy than if you run or get into a fistfight, and thus run out of stamina faster. Stamina in this case is represented by the ring count or transformation length, which is always shorter in Super Sonic battles compared to him just flying around.
 
In multiple games where super sonic is story focused, if you have less than 50 rings in the gameplay segment before turning super, the game turns you super and gives you 50 rings. That likely happens in Sonic 2 as well.
Now I gotta reel you in because you're going a tad too far: there is no indication that Sonic ever "canonically" has 50 seconds to exert the form, and trying to apply that to the Sonic 2 cutscene instance is absurd. Let's not go Reddit-Brain.

Supers obviously have a limit of some form. Insisting it has to be 50 seconds is where I believe the firm game mechanics begin, as there has to be some form of pressure on the player when you're invincible. This is exactly why we don't up and say "Super Sonic only has 50 seconds to do this!" in versus matches.
It’s basic logic. If you walk, you naturally exert more energy than if you run or get into a fistfight, and thus run out of stamina faster. Stamina in this case is represented by the ring count or transformation length, which is always shorter in Super Sonic battles compared to him just flying around.
Super Sonic never exerts more Rings while performing attacks/techniques compared to his active flight though, you're shilling Redditor headcanon here.

So the example and correlation of stamina being represented as a direct 1-1 by the Ring Count for a Super State doesn't work in your argument because we only ever see a consistent drain rather than a fluctuation (except for being damaged, which takes a clump of Rings).
 
I think 50 rings being required is a gameplay mechanic but, super sonic as a form outright gives you rings in multiple scenarios upon first transforming. So saying that Sonic can sustain the form without rings at all based on the Sonic 2 cutscene is debatable because we never see the ring count to confirm it stays at 0.

My comparison of ring draining was super forms being in a fight vs just flying around causally, the comparison is pretty clear. When Super Sonic isn’t pushing himself in a conflict, it lasts several days. When he is, it lasts for much shorter, maybe a day at most using in-gameplay time cycles, sometimes even a few minutes.
 
I think 50 rings being required is a gameplay mechanic but, super sonic as a form outright gives you rings in multiple scenarios upon first transforming.
Because of a gameplay mechanic. You're acting here as if the game always giving you Rings and Super Sonic being on a ring timer is you raising two separate points when that's really just one point (that loops back to the 50 Rings thing).
So saying that Sonic can sustain the form without rings at all based on the Sonic 2 cutscene is debatable because we never see the ring count to confirm it stays at 0.
Yes, but then that requires a concession that either Super Sonic isn't inherently depending on Rings being held and there are other factors involved or, alternatively, that Sonic has Rings in hammerspace he can utilize for it (which makes sense but ya know).

I always feel the time limit discussion is ultimately pointless tbh. Super Sonic will last as long as he needs to.
 
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