Rodriiogo
He/Him- 1,296
- 1,641
This part will be divided in three parts.
Part 1: Applying Calc Group Thread changes (REMOVALS)
Everything was talked about in this thread:
vsbattles.com
vsbattles.fandom.com
This thread rule and the "possibly Massively Hypersonic+" should both be removed as one of the main reasons why the possibly and said rule is accepted in this thread is because of it having AP superior to 8-C which it will not have now because of the removal of Mettaton's kick. (Had armor confirm just to be sure that this can indeed be the case)
I will talk about the Recalc's later as Part 4 of the thread will address a bigger issue before proceeding with the re-calculations.
Part 2: Mettaton's Feats.
This part is to address Mettaton's feats throughout the entirety of Hotlands, so this two:
Being blunt: The "feats" here are not meant to be used for scaling and are entirely faked in-verse.
After Mettaton "breaks the wall", when you go check in the hole, it's said that the space behind the wall is "only a few feet wide". This alone already tells you something. Mettaton was placed in a hole inside the wall created by someone, the whole feat isn't natural. Taking a look at mettaton's width:
Mettaton is around 1.2 meters wide. He should have around the same depth (just a tad less) since he's almsot a cubical shape. "A few feet wide" would mean around the 3 feet ranges. The equivalent of 3 feet into meters is 0.91m. Putting it together with the fact that Mettaton had to be inside that space behind the wall, it is very much clear that the entire feat was made on a shallow fake wall. Alphys dug/created a space behind his wall and put Mettaton inside and waited for you so Mettaton could "break through" the wall as an act. This is not interpretation or headcanon, because Toby Fox himself clarifies this during the UNDERTALE anniversary stream:
The scene is supposed to be a fake scenario/act in something created by Alphys. The entire feat is faked.
This is outright confirmed by Mettaton later in the game as he directly admits that the dangers never existed, the quizz, the malfunction, the bombs, puzzles, were all props/mechanisms created by Alphys to insert herself into your story as she would always "save you". This would also apply to the "bomb feat" (this) Everything there was a prop/fake that Mettaton inserted and takes it out as, even that puzzle and the bombs themselves are confirmed to be all fake as seen by even if you completely fail the puzzle, the bomb doesn't go off, as it's fake and you were never in danger of being blown up. Alphys is even shown trying to awkwardly improvise because the sequence was rigged for Alphys to "save" the player from the "danger" that never existed as it was all an act/fake. In the feat itself of the 10th anniv stream it's shown that once the "bomb explodes", the other "bombs" and all props are already "on stage"/on-screen for the act to begin.
TLDR: Both the Wall destroying feat and Bomb feat are faked and all scripted with props and stuff created by Alphys. It shouldn't be treated as a legitimate scale, especially now that the verse is not at the level of those supposed "feats".
Part 3: Issue in the Pixel Scaling in-verse + establishing a base for it.
Currently, for calculations for feats that happen inside the Battle Box we use this singular in-between frame of Frisk and the Soul as a fight starts. That leads to insanely big attacks which are not meant to be that size. Here's multiple examples:
(Calc link)
The soul width should be changed to around 0.15m aka 15cm via Mettaton's heart-shaped core.
I consider this way more consistent with what the story makes its size to be alongside the fact that the heart shaped core is actually meant and showed to be simillar to the heart shaped soul while being something that just straight up fits around mettaton's waist alone. More examples of this being consistent are:
(Edit) Extra Note: Multiple arguments have been done throughout the thread on trying to argue on why it's still not consistent so here's a message with how it's extremely consistently with multiple other showings in verse, more than any other proportion. Please don't try to argue on other size if you don't have this level of consistency for it.
(Edit2) - New Solution (ACCEPTED)
Due to constant arguing, @Armorchompy brought up another solution for this issue:
So it has been added as another possibility:
Real sizes:
Mettaton's height: 526.5px | 170cm
Dialogue box's length: 1294.61px | 418.0127255cm
(Both possibilities are in the same calc blog just to note)
Part 1.5: Applying Calc Group Thread changes (RECALCS)
Going back to this, considering part 4, this should be the new calculations that were accepted to be recalculated in that way in the thread:
There's also this calculation for Flowey that has been accepted in both comments and in the thread to be used and will be the recalculation used for his elevator feat.
Changes/Result for Scaling:
What I propose is that monsters like Asgore and Toriel should scale to a singular vine of said feat as they are superior to Flowey.
For that I suggest using 12 vines because of this. Which would mean Asgore and Toriel (and everyone who scales) would be Class 50 (47.775 Tons) and Flowey would vary between that and Class K (575.3 Tons) depending on the amount of vines.
Agree:
@Armorchompy (Comment) | Method: Dialogue Box
@AbaddonTheDisappointment (Comment) | Method: Dialogue Box
@KingTempest (Comment)
@Dalesean027 (Comment) | Method: Dialogue Box
Neutral:
Disagree:
Part 1: Applying Calc Group Thread changes (REMOVALS)
Everything was talked about in this thread:
Undertale Calculations - 90% of them are wrong
Fair and simple, I think alot of the calculations in the UNDERTALE page are wrong. Pyrope's Bomb The calculation is using 20 PSI for no apparent reason. This should be replaced with a lower PSI as the explosion causes no visible destruction and doesn't even kill Frisk when they get hit. There's...
Undertale - Meteor Shower
vsbattles.fandom.com
This thread rule and the "possibly Massively Hypersonic+" should both be removed as one of the main reasons why the possibly and said rule is accepted in this thread is because of it having AP superior to 8-C which it will not have now because of the removal of Mettaton's kick. (Had armor confirm just to be sure that this can indeed be the case)
Part 2: Mettaton's Feats.
This part is to address Mettaton's feats throughout the entirety of Hotlands, so this two:
Being blunt: The "feats" here are not meant to be used for scaling and are entirely faked in-verse.
After Mettaton "breaks the wall", when you go check in the hole, it's said that the space behind the wall is "only a few feet wide". This alone already tells you something. Mettaton was placed in a hole inside the wall created by someone, the whole feat isn't natural. Taking a look at mettaton's width:
The scene is supposed to be a fake scenario/act in something created by Alphys. The entire feat is faked.
This is outright confirmed by Mettaton later in the game as he directly admits that the dangers never existed, the quizz, the malfunction, the bombs, puzzles, were all props/mechanisms created by Alphys to insert herself into your story as she would always "save you". This would also apply to the "bomb feat" (this) Everything there was a prop/fake that Mettaton inserted and takes it out as, even that puzzle and the bombs themselves are confirmed to be all fake as seen by even if you completely fail the puzzle, the bomb doesn't go off, as it's fake and you were never in danger of being blown up. Alphys is even shown trying to awkwardly improvise because the sequence was rigged for Alphys to "save" the player from the "danger" that never existed as it was all an act/fake. In the feat itself of the 10th anniv stream it's shown that once the "bomb explodes", the other "bombs" and all props are already "on stage"/on-screen for the act to begin.
TLDR: Both the Wall destroying feat and Bomb feat are faked and all scripted with props and stuff created by Alphys. It shouldn't be treated as a legitimate scale, especially now that the verse is not at the level of those supposed "feats".
Part 3: Issue in the Pixel Scaling in-verse + establishing a base for it.
Currently, for calculations for feats that happen inside the Battle Box we use this singular in-between frame of Frisk and the Soul as a fight starts. That leads to insanely big attacks which are not meant to be that size. Here's multiple examples:
- Papyrus, according to the current soul size, makes a huge bone of over 4 meters long and a huge amount of bones that are all over 80cm long, and, throuhgout the fight uses an amount of around 409 bones in total, which, while not being as big as the 4 meters one, are still around the same zize if not bigger than the 80 cm long bones. Despite all of that, he is able to keep all the attacks he used throughout the fight against you in a singular box in his room. For comparission, the current volume of the 80cm bones is around 0.26m^3. If we use the fact that he used 409 bones (even ignoring that alot of bones are bigger as that'd make it worse), it'd mean the total volume that all his attacks occupy 106.34m^3. That would fill Papyrus's entire room.
- Mettaton during his fight uses leg attacks. This attacks are meant to be just like his actual legs. That's very clearly the intention of them. Despite this, if we use the current soul size, those legs are almost 7 meters long. Which isn't the case at all as we can see Mettaton's legs size in the overworld are barely around Frisk's height.
- Shyren uses her singing notes againt you in the fight, there they are seen as basically the same height of the soul (currently accepted as around the 50cm). During the credits in the performance with Mettaton we see that her notes are actually extremely small and only around 10cm at best considering how small Shyren herself is.
- Mad Dummy, who is around Frisk's height, gets hit with Napstablook's tears at the end of his fight, and some of said tears are shown to be smaller than even his head alone, not only are they shown as around the size of the soul in the same scene but even during Napstablook's own fight, even though his tears are even smaller they are still around the soul's size. To more show how small they are, Napstablook needs a huge amount of them just to create a hat on his head with said tears being smaller than even his own pupils.
- During the fight against Toriel, she uses her hands to create fire attacks in sequence and throw them at you. During that scene, a representation of her hand appears on the battle box, and said hand is shown as way bigger than the soul even though Toriel's own hands are obviously not that big.
- Lemonbread during his fight disappears out of where monsters normally are during the fight and goes to bite your soul. During that, his teeth and eye are shown AS WAY BIGGER than the soul. Even though... yea. The teeth and eyes are, once again, obviously not meters long.
- You have a flexing competition against Aaron during his fight where you both are flexing against each other, because of that his attacks are his actual arms flexing towards you. But as you can see his arms are shown as way bigger than the soul. Even though- you get the point.
The soul width should be changed to around 0.15m aka 15cm via Mettaton's heart-shaped core.
I consider this way more consistent with what the story makes its size to be alongside the fact that the heart shaped core is actually meant and showed to be simillar to the heart shaped soul while being something that just straight up fits around mettaton's waist alone. More examples of this being consistent are:
- Asgore's soul upon he dies is shown as way smaller than his entire body, even his hands being bigger.
- Toriel's soul if you kill her is also shown as way smaller just like Asgore's, even being shown to be the same size as yours in the same scene.
- All the human souls are shown to be smaller than Flowey and he even story-wise absorbs them into his own body which by itself is short.
- At Alphys's work table in her lab we see blueprints of the soul on the table alongside the tools that she uses. This important because we know she was the one that extracted determination from the souls with said blueprints. I don't think I need to explain via the drawings and the whole context why it being 50cm is absurd.
- (DELTARUNE) In Deltarune, when Kris rips the soul off his body, it's shown that the soul is only around slightly bigger than his own hand. This is shown again consistently on three more occasions. (I know this is Deltarune but it does work as supporting proof for the consistency of the soul not being that big at all)
There are two scenes where souls do look bigger aka here and here, the point of the thread and in general is to say that the soul being around 15cm is way more consistent with everything else. The mettaton way is used because it is something that logically has to be that size otherwise it would not fit on mettaton's waist which makes this the most logical and consistent way of doing it especially due to how it's way more consistent with the sizes of everything else said in the thread. Please refrain from addressing those two scenes as "gotchas" on the soul not being that small. The whole point is that it is more consistently around 15cm than 40-50cm.
(Edit2) - New Solution (ACCEPTED)
Due to constant arguing, @Armorchompy brought up another solution for this issue:
My point is that Undertale's visuals, especially the overworld visuals, aren't really drawn to exact scale and with how small Frisk's sprites are the Soul necessarily needs to be drawn bigger to be easily visible - that size is not necessarily trustworthy. My suggestion is that we should use the enemy sprites in the battle box to scale things instead. Simplest thing, assuming we don't have canon heights, would be to assume someone like Mettaton or Papyrus are the height of an adult man (assuming we don't have canon heights) and get the battle box' rough scale from them, thus cutting out the Soul entirely. (EXAMPLE: Let's say that Mettaton is 340 px tall 170 cm individual, this means that every px is 0.5 cm. Thus in any other battle we can just use that value to pixel scale things, without the Soul being even involved).
I admit that the downside of this method is that it relies on the assumption that the scale of the battle box is roughly consistent between different encounters. However while I'm sure it's not 100% consistent I'd be surprised if there were any massive exceptions and getting a rough sense of scale is enough to avoid massive calc flaws. Battle sprites aren't 1-to-1 consistent with overworld sprites in regards of relative size but they're the more detailed and larger ones so I don't think that's an inconsistency on the combat's end. In fact I think the whole reason for this debacle is that the overworld's visuals are not internally consistent due to stylization, and I think it's a good idea to prioritize the combat visuals due to higher fidelity.
This isn't an issue in Deltarune where the combat and overworld are more clearly to scale (given we see a direct transition between the two). But in that game you can just scale directly off Kris themself. (Message)
The reason I thought of Mettaton was that A: he's human-like to the point that you can assume he's the height of a man and B: he sends attacks directly from his body so there's still direct battle box interaction
I'd prefer not using a measurement scaled off the overworld graphics at all, but truthfully I don't mind most solutions as long as they're not too insane. (Message2)
I admit that the downside of this method is that it relies on the assumption that the scale of the battle box is roughly consistent between different encounters. However while I'm sure it's not 100% consistent I'd be surprised if there were any massive exceptions and getting a rough sense of scale is enough to avoid massive calc flaws. Battle sprites aren't 1-to-1 consistent with overworld sprites in regards of relative size but they're the more detailed and larger ones so I don't think that's an inconsistency on the combat's end. In fact I think the whole reason for this debacle is that the overworld's visuals are not internally consistent due to stylization, and I think it's a good idea to prioritize the combat visuals due to higher fidelity.
This isn't an issue in Deltarune where the combat and overworld are more clearly to scale (given we see a direct transition between the two). But in that game you can just scale directly off Kris themself. (Message)
The reason I thought of Mettaton was that A: he's human-like to the point that you can assume he's the height of a man and B: he sends attacks directly from his body so there's still direct battle box interaction
I'd prefer not using a measurement scaled off the overworld graphics at all, but truthfully I don't mind most solutions as long as they're not too insane. (Message2)
Real sizes:
Mettaton's height: 526.5px | 170cm
Dialogue box's length: 1294.61px | 418.0127255cm
Part 1.5: Applying Calc Group Thread changes (RECALCS)
Going back to this, considering part 4, this should be the new calculations that were accepted to be recalculated in that way in the thread:
There's also this calculation for Flowey that has been accepted in both comments and in the thread to be used and will be the recalculation used for his elevator feat.
Changes/Result for Scaling:
- All monsters would scale relative to 9-B (0.001 Tons of TNT) from Ice Cap's Ice Generation feat.
- The Full power of a single Human soul would be rated as 8-B (20 Tons of TNT) (0.001 * 20000) due to it containing enough power to match the entire Underground population as the current calculation does (the value needs to be changed).
- All monsters would scale relative to 9-B (0.0005 Tons of TNT) from Ice Cap's Ice Generation feat.
- The Full power of a single Human soul would be rated as High 8-C+ (10 Tons of TNT) (0.0005 * 20000) due to it containing enough power to match the entire Underground population as the current calculation does (the value needs to be changed).
- All monsters superior to 12 ATK now would be Class 25 (12.5 Tons), due to Ice Wolf being able to lift and throw large ice cubes; However:
What I propose is that monsters like Asgore and Toriel should scale to a singular vine of said feat as they are superior to Flowey.
For that I suggest using 12 vines because of this. Which would mean Asgore and Toriel (and everyone who scales) would be Class 50 (47.775 Tons) and Flowey would vary between that and Class K (575.3 Tons) depending on the amount of vines.
- "possibly Massively Hypersonic+" should be removed from all pages that have it.
Agree:
@Armorchompy (Comment) | Method: Dialogue Box
@AbaddonTheDisappointment (Comment) | Method: Dialogue Box
@KingTempest (Comment)
@Dalesean027 (Comment) | Method: Dialogue Box
Neutral:
Disagree:
Last edited:
