Demon Slayer Mark

[Aytugsss]

It doesn't make sense to exaggerate when characters become so fast upon awakening the mark, that characters comparable to them become slow-motion compared to the market, or when characters faster than them are blitzed. There are calculations of Tanjiro's blitz on Hantengu clones being up to 100 times faster than the clones themselves. Mitsuri runs so fast that Zohakuten's Wood Dragons seem to stand still relative to her during parts of the fight when she's marked. Tokito, as already mentioned by Castorice, humiliates Gyokku in a way that surpasses even Gyokku's speed.

Reducing this to just 3, 4, or 5 times doesn't make sense, honestly. 10x is still a minimum value indicated by the minimum numerical value represented by Order of Magnitude.

No please read my answers i say muichiro and sanemi was equal in the hta but sanemi got sudden buff from nowhere and its just wrong

 

[Epyriel]

But sanemi cant get different amp between hta and ica only training and trwining in a short time cant give 10x amp
İm i wrong
And i already show why is sanemi and obanai didnt hold back

Except training can absolutely make up such a difference - that is the point of the HTA: regular demon slayers who were previously getting blitzed and one-shot by an extremely casual holding back Rui, suddenly jump up in strength to Lower Moon level through this training.

And I’m rather unconvinced about your arguments for Sanemi and Obanai not holding. Simply training at a level where training accidents can occur does not require all parties going all out. Especially if it is between one stronger combatant and one weaker combatant, where failing to adequately hold a blow could lead to an injury to the weaker combatant. Not to mention the fact Muichiro is shown to have been left worse off from the training, covered in injuries. Such training would still serve Muichiro even if it is less effective for the others.

At the end of the day, this is more an in-verse scaling contention rather than one that has to do with the DSM. Since even if the DSM had zero effect whatsoever, Sanemi was still shown to be substantially superior to Muichiro in base regardless, which would contradict your idea that Sanemi and Muichiro were equals during the HTA and then stayed that way until the ICA.

 

[Aytugsss]

So

Uh...yea? You do know Muzan was severely weakened by Tamayo's drug right? And Doma was literally laughing and playing around

so why would shinobu get scale from douma
And muzan wasnt use his strongest attack in the start of fight

 

[Aytugsss]

Yes, I consider the novelization. And even with it, Akaza still managed to defend against Giyu's most powerful attack with his arms. And actually, I believe he's talking about the tenth form, not the seventh.

Still, it's not very good to keep citing novelizations without accurate scans and translations on the wiki.

At this point, Giyu wasn't that tired, and he has superhuman stamina.

Yeah i know he wasnt tired but when he get tired he lost pace then lost
İ saying this because prove akazas trying

 

[Aytugsss]

İ

Just call for staff at this point imo. See their opinions on these.

Send messages some of them but hey didnt answer back
Do you know anyone i can ask for it

 

[Epyriel]

İ
Send messages some of them but hey didnt answer back
Do you know anyone i can ask for it

All the staff members are listed here and here. CRTs can be evaluated by Thread Moderators, Bureaucrats, Super Moderators, and Administrators.

Although some staff members have roles listed for the OC wiki exclusively.

 

[Aytugsss]

Except training can absolutely make up such a difference - that is the point of the HTA: regular demon slayers who were previously getting blitzed and one-shot by an extremely casual holding back Rui, suddenly jump up in strength to Lower Moon level through this training.

And I’m rather unconvinced about your arguments for Sanemi and Obanai not holding. Simply training at a level where training accidents can occur does not require all parties going all out. Especially if it is between one stronger combatant and one weaker combatant, where failing to adequately hold a blow could lead to an injury to the weaker combatant. Not to mention the fact Muichiro is shown to have been left worse off from the training, covered in injuries. Such training would still serve Muichiro even if it is less effective for the others.

At the end of the day, this is more an in-verse scaling contention rather than one that has to do with the DSM. Since even if the DSM had zero effect whatsoever, Sanemi was still shown to be substantially superior to Muichiro in base regardless, which would contradict your idea that Sanemi and Muichiro were equals during the HTA and then stayed that way until the ICA.

İ cant say anything about why you dont accept my arguments
İ sen messages to some personels to have. A look if they dont accept i will make another discuss for giyuu sanemi and obanais scaling

Except training can absolutely make up such a difference - that is the point of the HTA: regular demon slayers who were previously getting blitzed and one-shot by an extremely casual holding back Rui, suddenly jump up in strength to Lower Moon level through this training.

And I’m rather unconvinced about your arguments for Sanemi and Obanai not holding. Simply training at a level where training accidents can occur does not require all parties going all out. Especially if it is between one stronger combatant and one weaker combatant, where failing to adequately hold a blow could lead to an injury to the weaker combatant. Not to mention the fact Muichiro is shown to have been left worse off from the training, covered in injuries. Such training would still serve Muichiro even if it is less effective for the others.

At the end of the day, this is more an in-verse scaling contention rather than one that has to do with the DSM. Since even if the DSM had zero effect whatsoever, Sanemi was still shown to be substantially superior to Muichiro in base regardless, which would contradict your idea that Sanemi and Muichiro were equals during the HTA and then stayed that way until the ICA.

My main thing is that sanemi in the hta was realtive to muichiro its in the vsb to but suddenly he overpowered marked muichiro and i say mark dont give 10 x power up because of this
İ ask some moderators to react this discuss and waiting to their ansvers if its not acceptred i will make another discuss about giyuu sanemi and obanais scalings

 

[M2u12]

Please debunk muichiro argument

Why do I even need to debunk the Muichiro argument when other supporters who know the verse better than I do have probably already debunked it?

And another thing, you’re dodging my argument right now.

 

[Aytugsss]

Why do I even need to debunk the Muichiro argument when other supporters who know the verse better than I do have probably already debunked it?

And another thing, you’re dodging my argument right now.

Nobody debunk that argument and i dont see any argument you make

 

[Robo432343]

a badly formatted crt like this is gonna go nowhere

 

[M2u12]

Nobody debunk that argument and i dont see any argument you make

I literally told you I’m just a casual watcher/reader, so why the **** aren't you asking someone else who knows more about DS? Lmao.

And I wasn't even debating the Muichiro argument in the first place, yet here you are trying to force me to debunk it

 

[AyOgUyS]

So so why would shinobu get scale from douma

she wouldn't? she'd at best only scale in AP with death amp

 

[AyOgUyS]

Not hundered but 50 years and yeah giyuu only creat 11 form

you do know there are other water breathing Users that came before giyu right?

 

[Aytugsss]

a badly formatted crt like this is gonna go nowhere

This is my first so i cant say anything

 

[Aytugsss]

I literally told you I’m just a casual watcher/reader, so why the **** aren't you asking someone else who knows more about DS? Lmao.

And I wasn't even debating the Muichiro argument in the first place, yet here you are trying to force me to debunk it

Dont be aggressive i was saying muichiro argument because its my main argument
İ wasnt force you to do anything i just want to do a friendly debate

 

[Aytugsss]

she wouldn't? she'd at best only scale in AP with death amp

But she get rel speed because of it

 

[Aytugsss]

you do know there are other water breathing Users that came before giyu right?

Giyuu created eleventh form, the previous hashira between giyuu and other hashira is most likely only urokodaki and there is no proof what your saying

 

[AyOgUyS]

But she get rel speed because of it

do you know that you can't actually hold back your perception speed?

Giyuu created eleventh form, the previous hashira between giyuu and other hashira is most likely only urokodaki and there is no proof what your saying

so you think the first ever water breathing user just started off with all 10 forms?

 

[Aytugsss]

do you know that you can't actually hold back your perception speed?

so you think the first ever water breathing user just started off with all 10 forms?

Every hashira know ten form not every user hes a damn hashira for a reason
And vsb says douma panicked so he didnt hold back his physicall speed
But why he didnt use boddhiva if he panicked

 

[M2u12]

Dont be aggressive i was saying muichiro argument because its my main argument

I’m sorry if I’m coming off as too aggressive, but when you using bad arguments, force me to answer muichiro argument instead of asking other supporters who are more knowledgeable than I am and still dodging my argument, do you expect people not to be aggressive toward you?

İ wasnt force you to do anything i just want to do a friendly debate

Then I’m going to unwatch this and just let the other supporters debunk you instead.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Every hashira know ten form

cant prove this btw

But why he didnt use boddhiva if he panicked

cuz he's stoobid and a bum

And vsb says douma panicked so he didnt hold back his physicall speed

reaction and combat speed are different than perception speed

 

[Aytugsss]

I’m sorry if I’m coming off as too aggressive, but when you using bad arguments, force me to answer muichiro argument instead of asking other supporters who are more knowledgeable than I am and still dodging my argument, do you expect people not to be aggressive toward you?

Then I’m going to unwatch this and just let the other supporters debunk you instead.

Okay As you wish

 

[Aytugsss]

cant prove this btw

cuz he's stoobid and a bum

reaction and combat speed are different than perception speed

you need to prove otherwise i dont
And i know speed cstegories and douma clearly has the time for boddhiva but he didnt use when he scared thats mean he did hold back right?

 

[AyOgUyS]

you need to prove otherwise i dont

I'm 99% sure Burden of Proof is on the OP

And i know speed cstegories and douma clearly has the time for boddhiva but he didnt use when he scared thats mean he did hold back right?

maybe Doma just has trash battle iq

 

[Aytugsss]

I'm 99% sure Burden of Proof is on the OP

maybe Doma just has trash battle iq

The thing is you make a statement without proofs and its not even make sense because nobody says tenth form created later
And douma has no trash iq im sure that kanao says it

 

[AyOgUyS]

The thing is you make a statement without proofs

you didn't really disprove it either, this ain't an argument

because nobody says tenth form created later

nobody says it was a thing since the invention of water breathing's invention either

 

[Aytugsss]

you didn't really disprove it either, this ain't an argument

nobody says it was a thing since the invention of water breathing's invention either

What does that even mean
There is no prove that any water breathing created between the hashira who fight with akaza and giyuu
So you making headcanons and its important because this means akaza already adapted other techniques

 

[Mori]

Akaza held back against Giyu and Tanjiro almost the entirety of the fight. Akaza was "almost" serious against Marked Giyu as shown with Red BDA Shockwaves and truly serious against Selfless State Tanjiro who was purposely trying to kill him. (Akaza with speed bypassed Dead Calm). Deadass all this just means is that he was always this fast the entire time (something we been accepting)

I'm sorry, where is this notion of "Held back" or "unserious " Akaza coming from?

 

[Mori]

Again you're saying words for the sake of saying words trying to improvise on the spot to make it seem like you have an argument.

What does this even mean???

No he can't. Mark is an entire blitz amp shown previous times. Tanjiro several minutes prior could barely keep up with a casual Akaza, let alone the one fighting Marked Giyu.

And it's different because vibes, right? The situation isn't even different.

Hes been holding back the entire time dude. If he truly wanted to kill them on the spot he would've done it ages ago (Easily broke Giyu's sword when he wanted to end the fight)

Legit the only time he was truly serious

Give me a good reason why Akaza didn't just do this instantly the moment he saw Tanjiro and only did it the moment Tanjiro was a legitimate threat to him.



Akaza was always that fast. He simply held back.

Since we are on this topic, I would propose a Reactive Evolution (or what is it called now? Accelerated Development?) for Akaza. The argument on the speed is actually deeper than that. It was highlighted that the stronger the opponent, the more intense his Compass needle can sense. Indeed, it might take time for it to adjust but the point is that the blood demon art allows Azaka to evolve to that level in time, Hence why he was able to Adapt to Giyus speed so fast. Also, the argument about Giyus sword breaking doesn't even fly here. Have you considered the possibility that Giyu was getting tired and sloppy with his moves, leaving openings that Akaza could exploit?

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

Since we are on this topic, I would propose a Reactive Evolution (or what is it called now? Accelerated Development?) for Akaza. The argument on the speed is actually deeper than that. It was highlighted that the stronger the opponent, the more intense his Compass needle can sense. Indeed, it might take time for it to adjust but the point is that the blood demon art allows Azaka to evolve to that level in time, Hence why he was able to Adapt to Giyus speed so fast.

That's not how the Compass works; it's not based on power, it's based on the enemy's fighting spirit. If Akaza had reactive evolution of that level, he should be at least equal to Kokushibou in power, having fought him. Akaza, on the other hand, holds his own against weaker opponents, showing greater consistency not only in his own matches but even in his matches from Upper Moon 2 and 1.

 

[Saqphire]

Following

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

But sanemi cant get different amp between hta and ica only training and trwining in a short time cant give 10x amp
İm i wrong
And i already show why is sanemi and obanai didnt hold back

And tell us why we cant

İ dont understand why is sanemi got different power amp between hta and ica because you say they were equal in hta but sanemi got stronger like 10 x this is just wrong

Because he got STRONGER from the time they fought. Why is this a HARD concept to grasp. Marked Muichiro was completely MANDHANDLED by the most casual Kokushibo there is and Muichiro HIMSELF acknowledges he was the most useless in that fight while Base Sanemi was boxing Kokushibo

Also i said muzan zeniteu and doma was holding back because you say akaza wasnt serious because he didnt use his strongest form but i said zenitsu didnt use 7 th form from the start or muzan didnt use his attack that one shot hashiras in the start or douma didnt use boddhova against shinobu when she get mental amp so if you think douma was holding back 100% why shinobu get scale from him.

Again, numerous context and different factors makes up for Akaza holding back (Literally watch Mugen Train to figure out how his character works)

Zenitsu isnt holding back because he struggles to keep up with Kaigaku almost the entirety of the fight. Its also against his character to do so because hes scared of death.

Muzan isn't holding back because we know he has zero patience with bullshit and wants to get away from them and the sun.

Shinobu only got the scale because he himself stated he couldn't see Shinobu when she's on Death Amp. If hes rage baiting or not is a different discussion. Otherwise Douma for that entire arc held back because he gives zero damn.

Again none of this applies to Akaza who is literally superior to Giyu and Tanjiro since the beginning

And akaza beat tomiaka when tomiaka get tired and fatigued then he bream his sword also akaza did bypass elevent form with broken blade and wounded giyuu

Akaza didnt beat Giyu when he got tired, he literally beat Giyu up and broke his sword AFTER Akaza said Giyu has shown all his techniques and forms

Akaza didn't bypass his Dead Calm due to Giyu having a broken sword. Giyu HIMSELF stated its because of how insane and carnage Akaza is. The sword had nothing to do with it.

ou get wrong one more thing i said akaza was holding back but not full because he tried to kill tanjiro with kill intend and we see that clerlar

He was holding back. It was meant to mirror what happened in Mugen Train. Thats literally it


By this logic Akaza was using full power because he was trying to kill Tanjiro in Mugen Train when he clearly wasn't using his full power.

Legit a few minutes later Tanjiro is fighting for his life and couldn't really do anything and was being carried by Base Giyu. A single block makes him bleed


so yes he WAS holding back

 

[Mbpoops]

Gonna have to disagree w the thread

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

No please read my answers i say muichiro and sanemi was equal in the hta but sanemi got sudden buff from nowhere and its just wrong

It just sounds like you're arguing from incredulity when its made very clear in Infinity Castle that Sanemi is superior to Muichiro in every way possible. Again, Base Sanemi can keep up with Kokushibo and his Danmaku crescent moon spam. Marked Muichiro literally got blitzed and stabbed into a pillar using his own sword from a Kokushibo who wasn't even using a breathing technique. MUICHIRO HIMSELF acknowledges hes the most useless there.

so why would shinobu get scale from douma
And muzan wasnt use his strongest attack in the start of fight

Yeah i know he wasnt tired but when he get tired he lost pace then lost
İ saying this because prove akazas trying

Again Akaza started whooping Giyu only because Giyu showed Akaza all of his techniques. Giyu literally glazes Akaza

He was ALWAYS THIS SUPERIOR. Giyu even started there was a massive power difference between him and Akaza,

My main thing is that sanemi in the hta was realtive to muichiro its in the vsb to but suddenly he overpowered marked muichiro and i say mark dont give 10 x power up because of this

Do you understand the concept of getting stronger? Stop applying an entirely different arc to an entirely different arc.

 

[Mbpoops]

My main thing is that sanemi in the hta was realtive to muichiro its in the vsb to but suddenly he overpowered marked muichiro and i say mark dont give 10 x power up because of this

Wouldnt this just mean base sanemi is stronger than mark muichiro in the ica?

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

I'm sorry, where is this notion of "Held back" or "unserious " Akaza coming from?

Go watch the Mugen Train Movie. His entire character in a fight is to hold back and enjoy a fight. Rengoku's fight was the most embarassing because Akaza didn't really fo anything in that fight and Rengoku still got manhandled.

Since we are on this topic, I would propose a Reactive Evolution (or what is it called now? Accelerated Development?) for Akaza.

If you want

Also, the argument about Giyus sword breaking doesn't even fly here. Have you considered the possibility that Giyu was getting tired and sloppy with his moves, leaving openings that Akaza could exploit?

This doesn't work.



It has nothing to do with him getting tired. Legit the moment Akaza saw all of Giyu's techniques, he immediately broke Giyu's sword, baffling him on how strong Akaza was, and he immediately went for the kill, something Giyu couldn't react to. Actually, he actually made his own "opening" to break the sword. Giyu didn't even think it was even possible for the sword to break during a down swing, let alone from the side.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

Wouldnt this just mean base sanemi is stronger than mark muichiro in the ica?

This is his logic in DBZ terms

Goku and Vegeta fought on equal strength in the Saiyan Saga.

Vegeta then gets whooped by Final Form Frieza.

Goku proceeds to cook Final Form Frieza

Theres an 8333x gap strength difference between the Saiyan saga and Namek saga. By his logic, it isnt and the gap is only "2x" because he was equal to Saiyan Saga vegeta. from an entirely different arc. He does not understand the concept that characters can grow stronger.

 

[Saqphire]

Barring the arguments from the OP for a second, I would still agree to adjust, if not remove the multiplier because the main justification comes from this blog from this CRT which have a few problems in my book.

Previously, the statement in question from the first Kimetsu no Yaiba Fanbook had been translated as “extraordinary fighting abilities”, which is a correct but not an exact translation. This disregards the fact that the kanji Keta Chigai used literally means order of magnitude or digit difference. The most accurate translation is “combat ability on another order of magnitude” meaning at least 10x, since it is not explicitly stated in the Fanbook which order of magnitude it is compared to the previous one (what digit difference it is).

First off, why would "keta chigai" here mean "order of magnitude" at its most accurate level, especially when the blog literally concedes that certain translations that wouldn't mean a 10x amp would be valid in the first place? Keta Chigai has numerous meanings (in a different league, unbelievable, incomparable, unimaginable)
which would all fit the intent of the databook without forcing a 10x jump in overall statistics and as such, the blog would assume it would mean the numerical amp without actually explaining why. Thus, the claim that "keta chigai would be the most accurate to mean order of magnitude" was never actually proven here.

Also, claiming the databook doesn't explicitly state which order of magnitude it meant would be claiming it said "order of magnitude" in the first place and not something like "extraordinary fighting abilities" like the official translation used; again, the blog never proved that the former was the case, just claimed "it's the most accurate" without backing for it. It's more likely that the reason it didn't specify which order of magnitude it was is because there is likely no order of magnitude to be stated in the first place. The statement can be equally interpretted to mean something that grants it an unquantifiable amp with this line of reasoning alone and claiming it to be a 10x needs to be further justified.

The same argument has already been used in other CRTs in long-running verses before, such as Naruto/Boruto and Bleach +.

Not only is this just blatant whataboutism due to the contexts being different (since the narratives are different), just because Keta Chigai was used for those verses and was accepted, that doesn't mean they are immune to scrutiny and honestly, if the same line of reasoning was used for these verses, their examples should get nuked as well. Just because one verse does something with a certain kanji, that doesn't mean another verse using the same kanji is valid; two wrongs don't make a right.

Consistency feat section

None of these examples actually deduce that the 10x amp is the one that has to be the case, all of these examples can be equally valid for an unquantifiable amp.

In short, I agree with the premise of the thread, but it's unrelated to OPs arguments for it.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Interesting thread.

 

[Epyriel]

Barring the arguments from the OP for a second, I would still agree to adjust, if not remove the multiplier because the main justification comes from this blog from this CRT which have a few problems in my book.


First off, why would "keta chigai" here mean "order of magnitude" at its most accurate level, especially when the blog literally concedes that certain translations that wouldn't mean a 10x amp would be valid in the first place? Keta Chigai has numerous meanings (in a different league, unbelievable, incomparable, unimaginable)
which would all fit the intent of the databook without forcing a 10x jump in overall statistics and as such, the blog would assume it would mean the numerical amp without actually explaining why. Thus, the claim that "keta chigai would be the most accurate to mean order of magnitude" was never actually proven here.

Also, claiming the databook doesn't explicitly state which order of magnitude it meant would be claiming it said "order of magnitude" in the first place and not something like "extraordinary fighting abilities" like the official translation used; again, the blog never proved that the former was the case, just claimed "it's the most accurate" without backing for it. It's more likely that the reason it didn't specify which order of magnitude it was is because there is likely no order of magnitude to be stated in the first place. The statement can be equally interpretted to mean something that grants it an unquantifiable amp with this line of reasoning alone and claiming it to be a 10x needs to be further justified.


Not only is this just blatant whataboutism due to the contexts being different (since the narratives are different), just because Keta Chigai was used for those verses and was accepted, that doesn't mean they are immune to scrutiny and honestly, if the same line of reasoning was used for these verses, their examples should get nuked as well. Just because one verse does something with a certain kanji, that doesn't mean another verse using the same kanji is valid; two wrongs don't make a right.


None of these examples actually deduce that the 10x amp is the one that has to be the case, all of these examples can be equally valid for an unquantifiable amp.

In short, I agree with the premise of the thread, but it's unrelated to OPs arguments for it.

I’m not by any means an expert on Japanese so correct me if I’m wrong, but every single source I look at for a translation of “桁違い” gives either “order of magnitude” or “digit difference” as its foremost direct literal translation.

Is there some context based on adjacent characters that changes the meaning, or some other context I’m missing here?

• Tanoshii Japanese: https://www.tanoshiijapanese.com/dictionary/entry_details.cfm?entry_id=65992
• Japan Direct: https://www.japandict.com/桁違い#entry-1686140
• Google Translate: https://translate.google.com/?hl=en-ca&sl=auto&tl=en&text=桁違い&op=translate
• Word Hippo: https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/dynamic-translation/4a9d82efc103baee55af04ec16b6c6423944dfc1.html
• Reverso: https://context.reverso.net/翻訳/日本語-英語/桁違い
• RomajiDesu: https://www.romajidesu.com/dictionary/meaning-of-桁違い.html
• Bab.la: https://en.bab.la/dictionary/japanese-english/桁違い
• Nihongo Master: https://www.nihongomaster.com/japanese/dictionary/word/65808/ketachigai-桁違い-けたちがい

If you want to go with secondary definitions, sure you will find some contexts where it doesn’t mean a literal difference in order of magnitude but instead something more colloquial like “incomparable”. But the same is true of the word in english. But that is not its most direct or common usage for the chosen verbiage. And such would not be an obstacle for using it as a multiplier in english if the context isn’t clearly hyperbolic or overly colloquial in a qualitative rather than quantitative sense.

Like is there any actual difference in context for the same multiplier being accepted in those other verses? Because if I just use the direct english translation of the databook page, I see no unique issue based on the chosen verbiage for the associated narrative. Especially considering the fact that if they wanted to make a qualitative statement instead of a quantitative one, there are more direct/appropriate words to use, such as “段違い”.