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Minor for some, major for others downgrade for Sonic speed

JJSliderman

JJSliderman

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Recently, a thread was made bringing up the potential removal of infinite speed for Mega Man, and one of the reasons cited was certain narrative elements hinging on a ticking clock, which obviously is an anti-feat for infinite speed. And so it got me thinking about Sonic, and how super forms are currently accepted as baseline infinite speed, via being superior to anything base forms can ever achieve. I believe this baseline rating is incorrect, and should be brought down to MFTL+, for a similar reason of narrative time limit. Well, one instance specifically.

This guy

The entire premise of the Finalhazard fight is characters saying that if they don’t stop the colony in 5 minutes exactly, the world will end. Updates on this timer are constantly fed to you as the fight progresses, so this is a very clear cut narrative time limit, and thus a huge anti feat for infinite speed. Thankfully, super forms canonically have a varies rating, so this won’t kill the infinite speed outright. We just need to change the baseline to MFTL+, presumably to the 9.5 sextillion c rating from the old version of the powerscaling blog.

That said, I don’t think any other changes need to be made, as there aren’t any hard time limits after Zero Gravity, which is already being capped at just MFTL+ anyway. There is a potential infinite speed feat in Shuffle with Sonic flying to the center of Maginaryworld, but that would also be kneecapped by the aforementioned Finalhazard time limit, as well as Sonic having a canon 3 day time limit in Sonic Heroes, after Shuffle occurred. There are some implied time limits after Zero Gravity, such as Infinite being stated to destroy the resistance if they don’t destroy his sun in time, or Sonic being threatened to die in a limited timeframe by poison gas in the Night Palace, but these aren’t hard time limits at all. Although, for reference, there is another sort of hard time limit in Zero Gravity, where ABIS will destroy the world in 5 minutes, so no infinite speed for base up to that point.

In summary, super forms will have their baseline dropped to MFTL+ (9.51 sextillion c currently) instead of infinite.

Agree: DarkDragonMedeus, Dalesean027, MaverickZeroX

Disagree:

Neutral:
As a result of this change, several profiles will have to be adjusted. Since the anti-feat for super forms existed prior to a Sonic key that has infinite speed, it seems reasonable that every super form level boss is by default MFTL+ up until secret rings, unless they have alternate context. Meanwhile, every super form level boss after Secret Rings can maintain infinite speed as a baseline, since they would be upscaling a character who has infinite speed.

Those who can tap into the full power of the Chaos Emeralds and have had super forms spanning multiple eras pre and post Secret Rings (Classic Sonic via his Generations fight with Time Eater, Modern Sonic, and Shadow would be examples of this group):
Those who can tap into the full power of the Chaos Emeralds potentially and have had super forms spanning only post Secret Rings:
Those who may be able to tap into the full power of the Chaos Emeralds:
  • Varies. At least MFTL+, likely Infinite to Immeasurable at his/her peak.
    • Tails probably fits as the best example here (Fough Metal Overlord in Heroes, but didn’t use his super form, rather just an alternate form created by absorbing enough chaos energy, so the super form doesn’t have the feats but Tails could feasibly reach that level with the form)
    • Knuckles (Same as Tails)
    • Amy (Solely because she can tap into a Hyper Form, implying she can reach the pinnacle of a Super State if she has a form that surpasses it)
    • Team Rose
Those who have no demonstrations or arguments currently they can tap into the full power of the Chaos Emeralds:
In betweens:
  • At least MFTL+, likely Infinite
    • Egg Salamander (has a direct feat flying to the Exception between Sonic and Blaze’s universe, which is currently accepted as infinite distance)
Super form level entities (those who are scaling to super forms):

Devil Doom (2005), Finalhazard, Dark Dragon, True Area 53, Super Egg Robot, Final Weapon, Ultimate G-merl (Fought Super forms pre-Secret rings in universe and have no feats pushing higher than MFTL+)

Heavy King (Phantom form), Kleptomobile (Due to fighting the same true phantom Ruby that empowered Death Egg Robot in Forces, can be MFTL+, possibly Infinite)

Chaos (Perfect specifically, Can stay at flat Infinite speed due to the fight in Generations)

Nega Mother Wisp, Full Power Ix (Fought super sonic post-Secret Rings so likely upscale that Sonic, Infinite. If Secret Rings being infinite gets axed, then Erazor Djinn, Darkspine Sonic, and Ix all would drop back down to MFTL+)

Perfect Dark Gaia, The End, Supreme, Knight, Wyvern, Giganto, Sage (piloting Supreme), Egg Wizard, Time Eater, Metal Overlord (Heroes), Eggman (piloting Time Eater and Egg Wizard and as Lightman), Eggman Nega (piloting Egg Wizard), Black Doom (Shadow Generations in every key besides Doom’s Eye alone), Super Emeralds, Jeweled Scepter, all Hyper forms, and Gaia Colossus: Either have their own feats on the tier or scale to full power super sonic, so keep flat Immeasurable). If Mephiles ever got a Shadow Generations key, this is where he’d go.

Outliers (stuff I wasn’t sure about):

Chaos Energy Cannon (it’s only feat is way below MFTL+ so maybe it should just be lowered to whatever the on screen visuals show? It matches up with wherever eclipse cannon is)

Void and Illumina (both can either create, destroy or corrupt the entirety of Maginaryworld, which is currently accepted as infinite, and upscale Lumina Flowlight, who flew to the center of Maginaryworld, but it would require changing Shuffle base cast’s speed as well, which would be an outlier unless this is treated as an amped base cast, not confirmed right now)
 
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Eh, I'm fine with this.

You should probably outline the highest feat and value to which Supers would scale at the bottom of the OP. The verse page should have every relevant Super-level feat as well so I can't imagine adding those feats back to the relevant characters would be too difficult.
 
ShakeResounding said:
Eh, I'm fine with this.

You should probably outline the highest feat and value to which Supers would scale at the bottom of the OP. The verse page should have every relevant Super-level feat as well so I can't imagine adding those feats back to the relevant characters would be too difficult.
Click to expand...
I linked your old version of the powerscaling blog, the old baseline was like 9.65 sextillion c as of Frontiers but it might be worth a relook
 
Interesting proposal. Will this affect any other characters besides the Final Hazard? Like for example the Super Egg Robot if the baseline for a super forms speed in the adventure era (and presumably the classic era) gets dropped to MFTL+?
 
Snek said:
Interesting proposal. Will this affect any other characters besides the Final Hazard? Like for example the Super Egg Robot if the baseline for a super forms speed in the adventure era (and presumably the classic era) gets dropped to MFTL+?
Click to expand...
At bare minimum it affects all super forms and super form level threats in classic and adventure era and modern all the way to Zero Gravity.

Barring bosses that have their own immeasurable scaling like Solaris ofc.
 
For clarification on where exactly the Infinite speed scaling comes from, is it just from Chaos Emeralds being > World Rings or is there other stuff?
 
Ghengiroo115 said:
For clarification on where exactly the Infinite speed scaling comes from, is it just from Chaos Emeralds being > World Rings or is there other stuff?
Click to expand...
It’s a combination of upscaling infinite speed from base Sonic and being superior to the world rings. There might be some discussion on whether super form baseline should upscale the power of the world rings, but I decided to just focus on speed because of the more obvious anti-feat.
 
JJSliderman said:
It’s a combination of upscaling infinite speed from base Sonic and being superior to the world rings. There might be some discussion on whether super form baseline should upscale the power of the world rings, but I decided to just focus on speed because of the more obvious anti-feat.
Click to expand...
Weird how all Super forms are upscaling from base Sonic as that seems kinda circular, but meh (unless it’s just Secret Rings base Sonic?)

Agree with the downgrade based on the Finalhazard anti-feat.
 
If I were technologically literate I'd link the profiles so sorry for the minor inconvenience because I don't know how to do that. Anyways I made a list of characters who's ratings could be affected by this, who might need a justification change and who remains exactly the same if anyone would like to look it over quick fast to see if I missed anything. Just figured making this kind of list in advance would be convenient even if the proposal doesn't go through.

Affected Profiles​

  • Final Weapon
  • Super Egg Robot
  • True Area 53 Boss
  • Black Dragon
  • Black Doom (original Devil Doom key)
  • Biolizard (Final Hazard key)
  • Classic Sonic (super form)
  • Adventure Sonic (super form)
  • Tails (only classic and adventure era super form)
  • Knuckles (only classic and adventure era super form)
  • Amy (only classic or adventure era super form)
  • Trip (super form key)

Possible Justification Change​

  • Perfect Chaos (fought adventure Super Sonic, the infinite rating is kept due to fighting modern base Sonic)
  • Heavy King (fought classic Super Sonic, the infinite rating is kept either from fighting in the reverie zone where time isn't functioning or potentially from scaling to Infinite and modern Sonic depending on how we treat the Phantom Ruby)
  • Egg Mobile (Kleptomobile key, same as Heavy King)
  • Metal Overlord (fought adventure Super Sonic, however he also fought Shadow in Shadow Generations so he keeps infinite speed). Edit - Doom Shadow and modern Devil Doom are rated as infinite but Metal Overlord is rated immeasurable.

No Change​

  • Any modern era character.
  • Solaris
  • Time Eater
 
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I agree, though primarily since infinite speed always came from a single comment from a prima guide that isn't really supported in-game. SS still gets good infinite speed feats later on with Solaris (since his light is expanding across all space-time and his beams should be that fast, which doubles as immeasurable) and debatably Null Space
 
JJSliderman said:
Varies, at least MFTL+ to Infinite to Immeasurable
Click to expand...
Ugh, this looks ugly af.

CRTs like these for the verse tend to be historically underbaked in terms of editing execution. If this is really happening, then we absolutely MUST categorize characters based on the likelihood of being able to access the Emeralds' true strength. Hell, if we gotta take the time to write down a list over the course of a day then so be it. But it should be done.

Those who can tap into the full power of the Chaos Emeralds:
  • Varies. At least MFTL+ to Infinite to Immeasurable at his/her peak.
    • Classic Sonic (from fighting the Time Eater)
    • Modern Sonic
    • Modern Neo
    • Shadow
    • Silver
    • Blaze via Burning Blaze, obviously
    • Etc.
Those who may be able to tap into the full power of the Chaos Emeralds:
  • Varies. At least MFTL+, likely Infinite to Immeasurableat his/her peak.
    • Knuckles probably fits as the best example here (Can tap into a Hyper Form, and fought Metal Overlord in Heroes)
    • Tails (Solely because he can fight Metal Overlord like Knuckles)
    • Amy (Solely because she can tap into a Hyper Form, implying she can reach the pinnacle of a Super State if she has a form that surpasses it)

Those who can't tap into the full power of the Chaos Emeralds:
  • Varies. At least MFTL+, possibly far higher 
    • Mighty
    • Ray
    • Mecha Sonic MK II (Not sure if his Super State would fall here as well but I figured I'd toss him in).
    • Etc.
This should be a good starting point that you can work off of.
 
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TheStinkeer said:
I agree, though primarily since infinite speed always came from a single comment from a prima guide that isn't really supported in-game. SS still gets good infinite speed feats later on with Solaris (since his light is expanding across all space-time and his beams should be that fast, which doubles as immeasurable) and debatably Null Space
Click to expand...
I think the use of Prima guides is a separate thread topic, I also sort of disagree with their use but as long as they are being used the feat is, fine.
 
ShakeResounding said:
Ugh, this looks ugly af.

CRTs like these for the verse tend to be historically underbaked in terms of editing execution. If this is really happening, then we absolutely MUST categorize characters based on the likelihood of being able to access the Emeralds' true strength. Hell, if we gotta take the time to write down a list over the course of a day then so be it. But it should be done.

Those who can tap into the full power of the Chaos Emeralds (Classic Sonic via his Generations fight with Time Eater, Modern Sonic, and Shadow would be examples of this group):
  • Varies. At least MFTL+ to Infinite to Immeasurable at his/her peak.
    • Classic Sonic (from fighting the Time Eater)
    • Modern Sonic
    • Modern Neo
    • Shadow
    • Silver
    • Blaze via Burning Blaze, obviously
    • Etc.
Those who may be able to tap into the full power of the Chaos Emeralds:
  • Varies. At least MFTL+, likely Infinite to Immeasurableat his/her peak.
    • Tails probably fits as the best example here (Can tap into a Hyper Form, and fought Metal Overlord in Heroes)
    • Knuckles (Same as Tails)
    • Amy (Solely because she can tap into a Hyper Form, implying she can reach the pinnacle of a Super State if she has a form that surpasses it)

Those who can't tap into the full power of the Chaos Emeralds:
  • Varies. At least MFTL+, possibly far higher 
    • Mighty
    • Ray
    • Mecha Sonic MK II (Not sure if his Super State would fall here as well but I figured I'd toss him in).
    • Etc.
This should be a good starting point that you can work off of.
Click to expand...
I figured I’d do this after the actual proposal was accepted first, but you’re right I’ll edit the OP rn.
 
JJSliderman said:
I figured I’d do this after the actual proposal was accepted first, but you’re right I’ll edit the OP rn.
Click to expand...
Whatever you think is best for you, brother. I can't exactly remember who else has Super States off the top of my head that needs to be listed, but I'm sure we'llbe thorough and get everyone...

Oh! Trip. Imo Trip should be with Mighty and Ray.
  • Super State has no plot relevance aside from needing to collect them for the true boss iirc, which you play as Sonic for and not her.
  • It's her first time ever utilizing a Super State, so she shouldn't have good enough mastery over her form to tap into the higher echelon of power.
And I suppose we'd have to look at the boss pages as well and see which ones are deserving of a downgrade.
 
JJSliderman said:
Well the only ones actually being downgraded are super form bosses prior to Secret rings which no one cared much about
Click to expand...
Yep, fair enough.
ShakeResounding said:
Ugh, this looks ugly af.

CRTs like these for the verse tend to be historically underbaked in terms of editing execution. If this is really happening, then we absolutely MUST categorize characters based on the likelihood of being able to access the Emeralds' true strength. Hell, if we gotta take the time to write down a list over the course of a day then so be it. But it should be done.

Those who can tap into the full power of the Chaos Emeralds:
  • Varies. At least MFTL+ to Infinite to Immeasurable at his/her peak.
    • Classic Sonic (from fighting the Time Eater)
    • Modern Sonic
    • Modern Neo
    • Shadow
    • Silver
    • Blaze via Burning Blaze, obviously
    • Etc.
Those who may be able to tap into the full power of the Chaos Emeralds:
  • Varies. At least MFTL+, likely Infinite to Immeasurableat his/her peak.
    • Tails probably fits as the best example here (Can tap into a Hyper Form, and fought Metal Overlord in Heroes)
    • Knuckles (Same as Tails)
    • Amy (Solely because she can tap into a Hyper Form, implying she can reach the pinnacle of a Super State if she has a form that surpasses it)

Those who can't tap into the full power of the Chaos Emeralds:
  • Varies. At least MFTL+, possibly far higher 
    • Mighty
    • Ray
    • Mecha Sonic MK II (Not sure if his Super State would fall here as well but I figured I'd toss him in).
    • Etc.
This should be a good starting point that you can work off of.
Click to expand...
I completely agree with this, actually. People who can only use finite emerald power shouldn't be granted infinite speed whatsoever
 
Was just informed that Hyper Tails was reduced to Super Tails in the 2.0 update of Sonic Origins. Poor guy.

I think he can still remain where he is however because of fighting Metal Overlord.
 
Just to double check, this is only for AD era right?
Like anything post idk, 06 ig? Or maybe Shadow? Would retain it, whenever the next inf feat comes along.
 
Chariot190 said:
Just to double check, this is only for AD era right?
Like anything post idk, 06 ig? Or maybe Shadow? Would retain it, whenever the next inf feat comes along.
Click to expand...
Everything up to secret rings, I’m making a list of who scales where rn.
 
Alright the draft of who is scaling where is in the OP. Feel free to make comments on changes.
 
These looks good. That being said I think Heavy King and Kleptomobile probably don't directly scale to the DER since it was being overclocked, likely the same story as Infinite but that's a more grey area and I question why Heroes Metal Overlord has immeasurable speed and why Shadow Gens Mephiles gets that as well
 
TheStinkeer said:
These looks good. That being said I think Heavy King and Kleptomobile probably don't directly scale to the DER since it was being overclocked, likely the same story as Infinite but that's a more grey area and I question why Heroes Metal Overlord has immeasurable speed and why Shadow Gens Mephiles gets that as well
Click to expand...
Overlord is getting it because he forced Sonic to buy time to charge the emeralds, and Mephiles gets it because he fought a stronger Doom Shadow than the one that fought Overlord.
 
how exactly does this debunk inf speed super forms? (sorry if that is stoobid question me am dum sometime :P)
 
AyOgUyS said:
how exactly does this debunk inf speed super forms? (sorry if that is stoobid question me am dum sometime :P)
Click to expand...
They explicitly are under a time limit to complete a task which shouldn't be an issue if they have infinite speed, they can finish a task in 0 seconds, but narratively they don't complete the task in 0 seconds.
 
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