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Super Mario General Discussion Thread.
- Thread starter Shadowbokunohero
- Start date
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Worst case if you wanna talk about it you can spoiler the story stuff, there's formatting for that.
Dust_Collector
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Looked up the story mode to see what's up myself (I like Mario Tennis but I ain't paying that much for it, just gonna until my friend gets me a discounted copy lol):
The main villains are roided out Scuttlebugs, they juiced up on stored up power from some tree. Bowser at the end of the game learns about this and wants to use it for himself but the most he gets outta it before getting beaten is being able to shoot small dark energy orbs.
Can confirm what I said earlier, Bowser can handle getting hit with attacks that one shot everyone else, he just gets knocked down and dazed for a few seconds before getting back up to continue the final boss fight which is kinda weird? Even DK get's instantly knocked out by these attacks. Although Bowser does stay on the ground for a solid 9 seconds before he comes to his senses and gets back up after taking a hit from the blast, can probs just chalk it up as an endurance feat rather than a straight durability one.
Can confirm what I said earlier, Bowser can handle getting hit with attacks that one shot everyone else, he just gets knocked down and dazed for a few seconds before getting back up to continue the final boss fight which is kinda weird? Even DK get's instantly knocked out by these attacks. Although Bowser does stay on the ground for a solid 9 seconds before he comes to his senses and gets back up after taking a hit from the blast, can probs just chalk it up as an endurance feat rather than a straight durability one.
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King K. Rool stonks rising
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All the tree of might did was grant every Enemy on the Island enough Power to fight the Mario Cast. The final boss has some Reality warping abilities as well. My main focus for the game is how often they Call Baby Mario a prodigy. BB Mario and BB Luigi's Accelerated Development is off the charts. I also think the Wario Brothers and Some of the common enemies really benefit from what's stated within in-game dialog.
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It's a sorta ambiguous statement but it's implied Adult Mario has more potential then his baby self. It was like a 1-Off statement by a Koopa comparing the two.
Dust_Collector
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With the new Evidence presented with Tennis Fever and Previous Games that support it, I can hopefully alter this perception. Still waiting on that bowsers army profile to be released.
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While I do agree that the cast's power levels go through cycles of getting stronger and weaker, that doesn't mean there isn't an overall positive correlation between strength and time, it just means it isn't necessarily as stable as many other verses tend to be.
Dust_Collector
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I mean, wouldn't the fact that canonically they do get weaker again after being inactive make it hard to say there's a overall sense of growth overtime that's significant enough to make keys for? I do think it's worth doing keys for some games (I think you might be able to get away with a 5-C key for the Bros and Bowser in BIS due to funny RPG growth) but not something like a key for the classic NES era and then another for after the events of Mario 64 or something. Although I can see keys for their baby selves and adult selves with the former downscaling to baseline High 6-A or something.
Dust_Collector
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Mario and Luigi games, tutorial fights at the start of the games have someone like Toadsworth make a remark about how Mario's gotten rusty since he last beat the shit outta someone as a goofy tounge in cheek way to justify why they're back to level 1. This is even seen in games like Partners in Time where the adult bros aren't that much stronger than their baby selves at the start of the game.
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Being rusty doesn't really imply he's weaker. When the Bowser's Army page drops, what I've complied might contest this notion along with the Partners in time dilemma.
Edit:
If there's anything else, pls point me into the direction where I can study more.
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Imo, baby Mario and Luigi being able to fight alongside their adult selves has less to do with their physical strength than it does the power of their weapons, adult Mario and Luigi being physically weaker than when they were literal toddlers just doesn’t make sense to me.
Dust_Collector
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But they're shown able to fight alongside their adult selves even without weapons, plus nobody is saying as adults they'd be weaker than when they were toddlers just that their normal level of strength isn't leaps and bounds above that age, they're like about twice as strong iirc. We even see this in games like Yoshis Island DS where Baby Bowser can handle being directly attacked by his adult self and only end up more annoyed than damaged, and in Yoshi's New Island Baby Bowser can harm Yoshi who can withstand attacks from his adult self.
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Yes, but personally, I feel it makes more sense to attribute the majority of the damage they're doing to their weapons/powerups rather than their physicals.
I haven't played Yoshi's Island DS, so I'd appreciate a scan of this
I feel that both the regular Baby Bowser fights in the Yoshi games actually go towards what I'm trying to argue for, as in both SMW2 and New Island, Bowser gets his shit beat pretty quickly and easily in the initial fight, and only actually becomes a proper threat to Yoshi upon being amped by Kamek, so I wouldn't exactly point to it as a case of the cast's baby selves being comparable to their adult selves when its more of a "Goomba killing Mario" type situation where you aren't really supposed to lose narratively.
Now, I'll admit, a lot of this just comes down to personal interpretation, and if you see it differently, that's fine. I just wanted to lay out my personal opinion here, I don't expect to change your mind regarding the topic at all.
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I went and actually found that.
Essentially BB Bowser gets into an argument with Adult Bowser and Adult Bowser blasts him with a fire ball.
I really don't see how this is an inconsistency. I highly doubt Bowser would go full incineration on his younger self and Baby Bowser was completely powerless against this attack anyways. So it's more likely Bowser held back and even with holding back, that was enough to overwhelm his younger self and send him flying.
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Dust_Collector
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I mean that's fine, but they can damage the same foes and take the same hits that are comparable to their adult selves before they get any weapons or powerups, I personally wouldn't dismiss that to have it make sense they're not getting giga stomped when fighting alongside their adult selves, plus with weapons like the hammer they still need to have physical strength in the same ballpark otherwise they wouldn't be able to swing it with enough force to damage their foes if there was truly a massive gap.
I don't see why Baby Bowser being able to take a few hits from and damage someone that's comparable to his adult self is more akin to being killed by a goomba because the boss fight's easy and you're not meant to lose narratively, 90% of Bowser's fights are narratively him getting his shit kicked in and horribly losing.
Yeah it's all a matter of opinion, we ain't gonna see eye to eye on this and glad you're laying out your reasoning, it's easy to see where you're coming from even if I don't fully agree.
Nope, it's part of why when different keys for different eras were brought up a while ago it was deemed a bit too shakey since we have no idea when Bowser comes from in the future, even just saying it's from the same era the games released in makes it tricky since DS is after multiple RPG games and New Island is after dream team.
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And he could ALSO be from an era where he was doing a lot.
Not like it matters, Partners in Time exists.
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Well by all reasoning and what transpired in those two instances, all available evidence would suggest it's a Bowser from a way earlier era. I don't think those two instances of future Bowser being defeated should count as inconsistencies as the entire situation is way too ambiguous in general.
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Or maybe, just maybe, the baby versions of the characters scale to the primary versions because this is
️fiction️?
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It's Mario. This is a game series based around a plumber jumping twenty feet in the air, eating oversized mushrooms to get big, and fighting a bit ass turtle dragon thing that spits fireballs and like big ass castles. I think logic went out the door with the first game.
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It's not like you can't find logic in it, that's what powerscaling is, but there isn't really a valid interpretation where the baby bros don't at least downscale from the adult versions (and i emphasize they do downscale, their stats are explicitly worse than the adults in PiT, but they're still relative).
The bros in all likelyhood do vary in power but "vary" =/= increase through time. It's weird, the RPGs treat them as though they're lazy bums who do nothing between games while in every other game they're basically always at peak performance (not to mention it's not like they're not constantly working out lol). Way I'd handle it is to just set a base tier and then let RPGs/other games with explicit progression - and only those games - go higher than that. There's still some weird stuff with that (Bowser can kinda always match them in the RPGs even though he's usually not going on adventures of his own, not to even mention Koopalings & other recurring foes), but the varies is kinda explicit-ish. Does mean baby Mario at peak stomps the shit out of base adult Mario which is funny.
Of course scaling rules still apply, the rating would still have to be internally consistent, a varies doesn't mean you can just pick the highest feat no matter what and say it's ok to use.
The bros in all likelyhood do vary in power but "vary" =/= increase through time. It's weird, the RPGs treat them as though they're lazy bums who do nothing between games while in every other game they're basically always at peak performance (not to mention it's not like they're not constantly working out lol). Way I'd handle it is to just set a base tier and then let RPGs/other games with explicit progression - and only those games - go higher than that. There's still some weird stuff with that (Bowser can kinda always match them in the RPGs even though he's usually not going on adventures of his own, not to even mention Koopalings & other recurring foes), but the varies is kinda explicit-ish. Does mean baby Mario at peak stomps the shit out of base adult Mario which is funny.
Of course scaling rules still apply, the rating would still have to be internally consistent, a varies doesn't mean you can just pick the highest feat no matter what and say it's ok to use.
Dust_Collector
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I AM A DIEHARD TIER 2 MARIO TRUTHER AND I WILL NOT BE SILENCEDSo no multiversal mario bros for their high end...
THE ANTI-FEATS WERE STAGED, THEY WEREN’T REAL, THEY WERE PLACED IN THERE BY SONIC GLAZERS TO MAKE MARIO LOOK BAD, I SWEAR-
I scream as I’m forcibly locked back into my padded cell
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Dust_Collector
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Accelerated_Evolution
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What do you mean? He's constantly working out to keep up with the Mario Bros.
Dust_Collector
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In terms of the RPG games what feats can we work with that certain characters can scale to at the end of the game? I know there's the moon level calc from rhe end of BIS but besides that and the extremely based decision of scaling the bros to Dreamy Bowser Are there other feats in the other RPG's that could potentially be a higher tier than their base stats (Within reason of course)?
... wait isn't the High 6-A brothership calc we use for their base forms only done near the endgame?
... wait isn't the High 6-A brothership calc we use for their base forms only done near the endgame?
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The site’s PR is going to be nonexistent after ts
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The tiers would probably go to like, High 6-C, up to High 6-A with AD, barring new feats being accepted. I think all the High 6-A stuff is from RPGs.
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Dust_Collector
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Wario my ******* GOAT don't need any RPG scaling to survive High 6-A attacks
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Honestly, shoutout to Wario and DK for singlehandedly carrying the powerscaling of the Super Mario verse, cause if it wasn't for Shake It, DKC Returns, and Bananza, the whole verse might've legitimately been stuck in tier 7 or 8 hell for eternity
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