Eden_Warlock99
She/Her- 13,594
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Previous thread here.
Rn practically 90% of Hazbin Hotel sits at "Low 5-B, possibly 5-B" thanks to the Overlords all joining forces, holding hands, and friendship-beaming a shield around a Tier 5 doomsday gun while it was overloading. Now this is an enormous jump for guys who used to be 8-A (And were supposed to be 9-A for a while), is it consistent?
This might not seem like a huge number of anti-feats compared to other series, but you have to factor in how little screentime (In regards to combat) the Overlords actually have.
And how, when they do get into fights, the anti-feats listed above tend to make up the conclusions, or at least a major part of said fights, which I’ll go into more below.
Alastor is the strongest Sinner, remained so even after losing his power source, and was never even slightly challenged prior to his fight with Adam.
Adam is the General of the Exterminations, just his foot soldiers (Exorcists) are seen as untouchable and invincible to Hell’s population, Overlords included. Adam himself steamrolled every single fight he was in, and it took LUCIFER, the undisputed 1# of the verse, to bring him down.
The Overlords have NO scaling to either of these two. So what do they actually scale to?
Just proposing the idea of fighting the angels was seen as laughable back in S1, an entire episode had to be dedicated to secure weapons capable of harming them.
Nothing even remotely similar happens with the Vees. In fact, Vaggi and Charlie, who have no knowledge of Nifty’s former status, assigned her on security duty against Vox.
And nowhere is this clearer than with Cherri Bomb.
That response makes no sense for someone who's 1/14th of the power of that explosion, surviving an explosion will always be leagues lower than the AP of the explosion itself, even just being a meter from the epicenter can divide the durability needed to tank it by 16. Yet she treats the blast as something that would unquestionably kill them all.
That and as they keep repeating "Everyone dies if we don't do this!" Hard to have a Season 3 when the entire cast is dead. What's PIS again?
Keep in mind, these angels command the Exorcists, beings no one in Hell could even harm. And yet they felt threatened.
That makes it hard to interpret "empowering demonkind" as purely metaphorical, whatever Lilith was doing had a tangible effect.
Note Hazbin is diegetically a musical and singing has already played a narrative role back in S1, with Charlie singing being the thing that gets the Cannibals to join her side.
So is it really far-fetched, to take the creators on their word when they state that the singing in 'Hear My Hope' served a purpose in the plot,
Especially in this case, the barrier they form doesn't just instantly poof into existence, but gradually builds up the more they sing and outright stagnates when they're not.
A common response to this is, "if this amp exists, why don’t they abuse it constantly in combat?"
It may simply be impractical to sing and fight at the same time, perhaps there's a certain mechanic to it that makes it require multiple singers, maybe they need to be "in perfect harmony" (as the show puts it) or maybe the characters are just dumb, this is the series where a character didn't realize Angels could be harmed, despite being an angel who was.
The intricacies of the mechanics really doesn't matter. We know they're stronger than normal. That's all that matters.
All in all, I’m completely fine with either treating it as an outlier or listing it under a specific music amp, as long as it doesn't scale to their base.
And to keep things organized, I’d like to avoid discussing the Overlord's new tier here (So no Vox should downscale to Alastor and Shok.wav stuff), I'll make another thread for that after this one. This one is solely about removing the 'Hear My Hope' feat from their base scaling.
That's it.
Rn practically 90% of Hazbin Hotel sits at "Low 5-B, possibly 5-B" thanks to the Overlords all joining forces, holding hands, and friendship-beaming a shield around a Tier 5 doomsday gun while it was overloading. Now this is an enormous jump for guys who used to be 8-A (And were supposed to be 9-A for a while), is it consistent?
The Outlier Concern
I'm going to point to our Guidelines for Outliers.Is it a big jump or drop in power?
Yes, undoubtedly so. The feats and anti-feats of Overlords and those who scale to them really only hover around Tier 9. Here are some of those anti-feats:- Husk is threatened by gunfire. There’s no indication that the guns are special, nor that Husk mistook them for the Tier 5 Angelic Weapons, considering his immediate response was to hide behind a random car on the street, which completely stopped the bullets (Hazbin Hotel: Season 1 - Episode 4)
- Cherri was about to take out Valentino with one of her bombs (Hazbin Hotel: Season 2 - Episode 8) and while the size of her explosions has never been consistent, Cherri has always needed large quantities of her explosives to destroy large structures like Sir Pentious' airship (Hazbin Hotel: Season 2 - Episode 3)
- Valentino was then outright incapacitated by a Tier 9-ish explosion (At least going by my estimates) (Hazbin Hotel: Season 2 - Episode 8)
- Charlie was also scared of the imminent explosion of one of Cherri's bombs (Hazbin Hotel: Season 1 - Episode 6)
- Velvette was taken out by a fall from V Tower. Even if she didn’t die, her doll form still broke apart on impact, which makes so very little sense if she was supposedly taking Tier 5 blows like nothing not even a few seconds ago (Hazbin Hotel: Season 2 - Episode 8)
- Prick and Hatchet, the Turf War Overlords, primarily fight using knives, spiked bats, etc (All of which explicitly not being Angelic Weapons). We even got to see a short exchange between them, in which Hatchet hides behind a collapsed building wall, which Prick fails to penetrate through with his magic thorns (You know, the thing he used to aid stop the doomsday gun). Hatchet then retaliates by throwing knives, which also fail to get through another wall (Hazbin Hotel: Season 2 - Episode 5)
- Lute, an Exorcist who the Overlords themselves see as invincible, was incapacitated and bled after a portion of the Hotel collapsed on her (Hazbin Hotel: Season 1 - Episode 8)
I’ll admit the scaling between the Overlords and I.M.P. is a bit shakier than I’d like, but there’s still solid evidence.
For one, Kitty is a Robo Fizz (Same size, same proportions, etc) and still managed to pressure Cherri (I’ll explain why she scales to the Overlords later) and even had Husk dodging its attacks. The much stronger evidence, though, comes from Millie. Her Battle Axe could withstand and deflect Striker’s Tier 5 bullets, the very same ones he says can kill Overlords, and Millie herself survived an explosion that destroyed said Battle Axe at close proximity.
That said, these aren’t super critical to the argument and could be left out if need be, really just here for support.
For one, Kitty is a Robo Fizz (Same size, same proportions, etc) and still managed to pressure Cherri (I’ll explain why she scales to the Overlords later) and even had Husk dodging its attacks. The much stronger evidence, though, comes from Millie. Her Battle Axe could withstand and deflect Striker’s Tier 5 bullets, the very same ones he says can kill Overlords, and Millie herself survived an explosion that destroyed said Battle Axe at close proximity.
- I.M.P were knocked out by a High 8-C explosion (And we don’t even know how close they were to the epicenter) (Helluva Boss: Season 1 -Episode 2)
- Millie messed up her leg after she was caught in a bear trap (Helluva Boss: Season 1 -Episode 5)
- Striker had to retreat from a common statue falling on him (Helluva Boss: Season 2 -Episode 4)
- Next time he appeared he was also defeated by a gasoline explosion (Helluva Boss: Season 2 -Episode 6)
- Crimson's gang was taken down by a collapsing building (Helluva Boss: Season 2 -Episode 6)
- Collin was incapacitated by Cletus' Exoskeleton falling on him (Helluva Boss: Season 2 -Episode 8)
That said, these aren’t super critical to the argument and could be left out if need be, really just here for support.
And how, when they do get into fights, the anti-feats listed above tend to make up the conclusions, or at least a major part of said fights, which I’ll go into more below.
I will not be counting split second fights like Zestial's match against Pentious and Baxter or Prick and Hatchet's scuffle.
Vaggie vs. Carmilla: Carmilla (The Arms Dealer Overlord) "fought" Vaggi, who used to be an Exorcist Angle. Not much can really be gleamed from it, neither cause any destruction and the only reason Carmilla can harm Vaggi is cause she's smacking her with her Angelic Pointe Shoes, as reinforced by Carmilla fully attributing her past kill of another Exorcist Angel to the fact she used an Angelic Weapon.
The Hazbin Hotel vs. The Exorcists: The Overlords here are Husk and Nifty and they really don’t do a whole lot. Niffty spent the entire fight stabbing corpses, while Husk killed a handful of Exorcists with his Angelic Cards (Which everyone else in this fight did) and briefly grappled with one of them. The Exorcists themselves, who are stronger than the Overlords, don't do much beyond being killed in the dozens either. Even Lute, who's stronger than your average Exorcist, was taken out by falling rubble, as mentioned earlier.
What I'm saying is that the difference in portrayal feels intentional.
The collateral deaths in this fight are also used to justify the quintillions gap Overlords have over regular Sinners, but looking at them, one was the result of Vox's dura neg "TP inside you" move and another was just Val missing and shooting a random passerby. Really only this one shows a power gap between Overlords and ordinary Sinners, the rest don’t suggest anything close to the absurd gap that’s currently on the profiles.
Nifty (ft. Baxter) vs. Velvette: The only destruction they cause is Velvette breaking a server cabinet. This is the fight that ends with Velvette falling off V Tower and breaking.
Husk and Cherri vs. Valentino: While it was initially Husk solo vs. Val, once Cherri joined and they figured out how to close the distance, they completely beat Val down, with Cherri (Who's not an Overlord) doing the bulk of the beatdown, bruising and even drawing blood from Val. [CHECK CHERRI SECTION FOR MORE INFO]
Season 1
Husk and Angel vs. Mobsters: The very first fight featuring an Overlord and it’s one where said Overlord has to retreat from gunfire. For what’s supposedly a Tier 5 vs. a bunch of Tier 9s, Husk does fights extremely cautiously, using a street car as cover and dodging their knife swings. One of the mobsters even manages to give Husk trouble by jumping onto his back and Angel had to step in to shoot the loan shark off him. Also don't ask me what happened but Husk walks away from the fight with a visible bruise on his cheek.Vaggie vs. Carmilla: Carmilla (The Arms Dealer Overlord) "fought" Vaggi, who used to be an Exorcist Angle. Not much can really be gleamed from it, neither cause any destruction and the only reason Carmilla can harm Vaggi is cause she's smacking her with her Angelic Pointe Shoes, as reinforced by Carmilla fully attributing her past kill of another Exorcist Angel to the fact she used an Angelic Weapon.
The Hazbin Hotel vs. The Exorcists: The Overlords here are Husk and Nifty and they really don’t do a whole lot. Niffty spent the entire fight stabbing corpses, while Husk killed a handful of Exorcists with his Angelic Cards (Which everyone else in this fight did) and briefly grappled with one of them. The Exorcists themselves, who are stronger than the Overlords, don't do much beyond being killed in the dozens either. Even Lute, who's stronger than your average Exorcist, was taken out by falling rubble, as mentioned earlier.
Season 2
The Vees (Vox, Valentino and Velvette) vs. Weakened Alastor (ft. Husk and Nifty): This is where they start actually getting stuff, Vox pulls off two 9-A feats! But the destruction is very much localized to the single street they’re fighting on. Even when Husk and Velvette start tossing explosions around, the surrounding buildings are barely affected. By contrast, the rematch between Vox and Alastor, after Vox became significantly stronger, has them tearing buildings and roads apart.What I'm saying is that the difference in portrayal feels intentional.
The collateral deaths in this fight are also used to justify the quintillions gap Overlords have over regular Sinners, but looking at them, one was the result of Vox's dura neg "TP inside you" move and another was just Val missing and shooting a random passerby. Really only this one shows a power gap between Overlords and ordinary Sinners, the rest don’t suggest anything close to the absurd gap that’s currently on the profiles.
Nifty (ft. Baxter) vs. Velvette: The only destruction they cause is Velvette breaking a server cabinet. This is the fight that ends with Velvette falling off V Tower and breaking.
Husk and Cherri vs. Valentino: While it was initially Husk solo vs. Val, once Cherri joined and they figured out how to close the distance, they completely beat Val down, with Cherri (Who's not an Overlord) doing the bulk of the beatdown, bruising and even drawing blood from Val. [CHECK CHERRI SECTION FOR MORE INFO]
And that's everything.
Both of those originate from Alastor and Adam respectively.
Alastor is the strongest Sinner, remained so even after losing his power source, and was never even slightly challenged prior to his fight with Adam.
Adam is the General of the Exterminations, just his foot soldiers (Exorcists) are seen as untouchable and invincible to Hell’s population, Overlords included. Adam himself steamrolled every single fight he was in, and it took LUCIFER, the undisputed 1# of the verse, to bring him down.
The Overlords have NO scaling to either of these two. So what do they actually scale to?
- Millie tanks an explosion - 22.807 Kilojoules (Wall level)
- Moxxie endures a wall destruction - 28.168 Kilojoules (Wall level)
- Moxxie endures getting crushed by an escalator - 225.845 Kilojoules (Wall level)
- Vox throws W.Alastor into a wall - 1.17482014252 Megajoules (Wall level)
- Millie causes a crater - 10.81 Megajoules (Wall level+)
- Vox makes an explosion - 0.0133733502 Tons of TNT (Small Building level)
- Vox makes a crater - 0.05168336372610001 Tons of TNT (Small Building level)
Just proposing the idea of fighting the angels was seen as laughable back in S1, an entire episode had to be dedicated to secure weapons capable of harming them.
Nothing even remotely similar happens with the Vees. In fact, Vaggi and Charlie, who have no knowledge of Nifty’s former status, assigned her on security duty against Vox.
And nowhere is this clearer than with Cherri Bomb.
I think this scene speaks for itself (Here's a youtube link if the imgur one doesn't work)
After Husk restrains Valentino with his rings, Cherri (Who's currently 9-B) proceeds to wail on him, bruising and even drawing blood from the supposed Tier 5.
The original thread argues she shouldn’t scale because,
As for the claim that her bomb “did no damage” to Valentino, that seems entirely based on the lack of visible bruising (If so, Ig none of Husk's attacks did anything to Val). Yet he still groans in pain and Cherri attempts to finish him off by shoving a bomb into his face. The framing makes it pretty clear that her bombs are a legitimate threat to him.
Now regarding "Angel Dust is stronger than her," not really?
Cherri is blindsided by a hypnotized Angel and knocked down by an attack she clearly didn't expect. He then restrains and strangles her using his extra arms, which she breaks free from within seconds. The only reason she fails to immediately retaliate is because Angel’s body proportions give him longer reach.
Even then, so what if Angel scales to Cherri? The issue isn’t whether Overlords are stronger, it's whether the gap is absurdly massive (Which this scene clearly doesn’t support).
After Husk restrains Valentino with his rings, Cherri (Who's currently 9-B) proceeds to wail on him, bruising and even drawing blood from the supposed Tier 5.
The original thread argues she shouldn’t scale because,
First of all, Husk did not "beat up" Valentino. Across the entire fight, Husk lands exactly one hit on Val, a thrown bottle that doesn’t even knock Val’s glasses off. Aside from that, all he really accomplishes is knocking Val’s guns out of his hands. Restraint also doesn’t lower durability, if the gap was truly as astronomical as the profile made it up to be, Cherri shouldn’t be bruising or drawing blood at all.
As for the claim that her bomb “did no damage” to Valentino, that seems entirely based on the lack of visible bruising (If so, Ig none of Husk's attacks did anything to Val). Yet he still groans in pain and Cherri attempts to finish him off by shoving a bomb into his face. The framing makes it pretty clear that her bombs are a legitimate threat to him.
Now regarding "Angel Dust is stronger than her," not really?
Cherri is blindsided by a hypnotized Angel and knocked down by an attack she clearly didn't expect. He then restrains and strangles her using his extra arms, which she breaks free from within seconds. The only reason she fails to immediately retaliate is because Angel’s body proportions give him longer reach.
Even then, so what if Angel scales to Cherri? The issue isn’t whether Overlords are stronger, it's whether the gap is absurdly massive (Which this scene clearly doesn’t support).
Is it a unique or exceptional incident?
Yes, undoubtedly so. Before Might of Lilith (the doomsday weapon) overloads, Carmilla warns Vox that if he fires it again, it will blow and "take you, us and half the Pentagram with it." Vox then attempts to fire it again, fails and causes it to overload. Charlie suggests to evacuate but Carmilla responds with resignation, saying it’s no use.That response makes no sense for someone who's 1/14th of the power of that explosion, surviving an explosion will always be leagues lower than the AP of the explosion itself, even just being a meter from the epicenter can divide the durability needed to tank it by 16. Yet she treats the blast as something that would unquestionably kill them all.
That and as they keep repeating "Everyone dies if we don't do this!" Hard to have a Season 3 when the entire cast is dead. What's PIS again?
Is the event unexplained and unjustified?
Actually.Why it's NOT an Outlier
In the very first scene of the series, Charlie narrates the history of Hell and states the following.We’re then told this was significant enough to alarm the angels, prompting them to begin the yearly Exterminations.
Keep in mind, these angels command the Exorcists, beings no one in Hell could even harm. And yet they felt threatened.
That makes it hard to interpret "empowering demonkind" as purely metaphorical, whatever Lilith was doing had a tangible effect.
Note Hazbin is diegetically a musical and singing has already played a narrative role back in S1, with Charlie singing being the thing that gets the Cannibals to join her side.
So is it really far-fetched, to take the creators on their word when they state that the singing in 'Hear My Hope' served a purpose in the plot,
and that it's straight-up them manifesting power (In a very literal way) to achieve a certain goal,
that when they perform something that is a gazillion times over their usual power, it's actually affecting their power?
Especially in this case, the barrier they form doesn't just instantly poof into existence, but gradually builds up the more they sing and outright stagnates when they're not.
A common response to this is, "if this amp exists, why don’t they abuse it constantly in combat?"
It may simply be impractical to sing and fight at the same time, perhaps there's a certain mechanic to it that makes it require multiple singers, maybe they need to be "in perfect harmony" (as the show puts it) or maybe the characters are just dumb, this is the series where a character didn't realize Angels could be harmed, despite being an angel who was.
The intricacies of the mechanics really doesn't matter. We know they're stronger than normal. That's all that matters.
Removal of Low 5-B (Not Lucifer)
The current interpretation for the build up of the barrier, that it’s merely accumulating power over time, doesn’t align with what we see on-screen. As mentioned earlier, the barrier visibly stagnates during Lute’s intermission and even shrinks afterward. This detail was very much intentional.All in all, I’m completely fine with either treating it as an outlier or listing it under a specific music amp, as long as it doesn't scale to their base.
And to keep things organized, I’d like to avoid discussing the Overlord's new tier here (So no Vox should downscale to Alastor and Shok.wav stuff), I'll make another thread for that after this one. This one is solely about removing the 'Hear My Hope' feat from their base scaling.
That's it.
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