Really Controversial Sans CRT...

[God_of_perversion]

In general; you on the other hand are even worse. You're asserting without evidence, which is legit just straight up not worth debating over.

All the same, me and you both know that isn't how we treat it here. Frisk and Chara are very much still cognizant, still take actions, and aren't at all effected in a way that would invoke it being anything but a generous minor unless you want to toss out some abilities.

Goes the other way too, if your excuse is legitimately "they were secretly effected, the player just puppeted them anyway because they couldn't act through it", which is the only way this would even be a relevant point to bring up, you need to prove that's what actually happened as the burden is you on claiming it secretly DID do something, it was just overwrote but we don't actually know what that "thing" is to begin with.
Would also mean we need to strip a slew of stuff off Frisk if we want to attribute things to The Player by default always but alas.

Yeah sure buddy,Frisk is in total control if their body even thought its acepted in both of their profiles that the player is in control,also when did chara enter the discussion?

 

[Starsprite53]

Forever until you can actually prove something without prefacing it with "I think", "maybe", "perhaps", "could be", "possibly", and every other prefix that tells me ya'll just guessing and assuming.

I don’t really agree with this sentiment. Powerscaling is also built on interpreting fictional text and mechanics, so some level of “maybe” or “likely” is unavoidable. Every profile here uses inference at some point. Also, saying it’s “just linguistics” or “just hyperbole” is still an interpretation, even if it’s phrased confidently. Both of you guys' positions have a degree of accuracy, the difference between them is which interpretation we find more supported or which one lacks support or whatever the material tries to tell.
Chariot is giving an interesting angle of the argument but the OP is also giving evidence and is making sense too
I will remain neutral for now.

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah sure buddy,Frisk is in total control if their body even thought its acepted in both of their profiles that the player is in control,

So... What you're saying is we need to remove a bunch of abilities, resistances and feats that are attributed to Frisk specifically that could just as easily be explained as "the player just forced them to continue regardless"?

also when did chara enter the discussion?

They also possess Frisk, it's called covering my bases.

 

[God_of_perversion]

So... What you're saying is we need to remove a bunch of abilities, resistances and feats that are attributed to Frisk specifically that could just as easily be explained as "the player just forced them to continue regardless

The fact you deadass said this without realizing its a false equivalant is actually insane. Also you said i didn't use a single scan in my argument but maybe just mayne thats because you ignored the comment used scans,also may i ask how many scans have you used on this entire discussion?

 

[God_of_perversion]

So... What you're saying is we need to remove a bunch of abilities, resistances and feats that are attributed to Frisk specifically that could just as easily be explained as "the player just forced them to continue regardless"?

They also possess Frisk, it's called covering my bases.

The same chara that was completely dormant for most of the game and when they fully took over Frisk they had 100% control over Frisk's actions?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Kinda? It either is or isn't.

Nah, see, KARMA is already inflicted on us the moment the fight starts.
That little “KR” next to our Health Bar? That’s KARMA.

It doesn’t show up in any other fight, and even the Pacifist sans fight doesn’t have it, so take a guess on why it appears here specifically lol

I didn't miss it, it's why I'm saying that line means nothing.

I see. Do propose why the LV19 Frisk, with LV literally being a quantification of how distant and disconnected they are from others (And we’ve seen it make Frisk go from feeling bad for punching a Dummy at LV1 to feeling good about it at LV9) would feel, any amount of guilt cause they're fighting a guy they don't give two ***** about?

And the bigger point, why is it specifically tied to the amount of KR you have? There are plenty of other flavor texts that have nothing to do with it. Yet somehow, this one only shows if you have 0–10 KR poison and disappears if you have more. Almost like... they’re actually connected or something!

And no, you just contradicted yourself. If the first line happens with 0 KR, then we know that line doesn't happen due to the, "supernatural SOUL-poisoning KARMA" because you just admitted it happens before he even uses it or inflicts it.

Like I said, KARMA is already working on us from the very start, think of it like a passive status effect, or I don’t know, Pressure in Pokémon.
Getting hit and getting more KR just amplifies it, kinda like how a Pokémon having a PP-draining move doesn’t mean they suddenly lose Pressure.

And you wanna know how I know this shit isn't even remotely concrete? Because the 3 of you can't even seem to agree on how it works either.

It's a pretty simple concept, more KR, more feelings of guilt.

If anything, why are we assuming KR 0-10 is Sans', instead of simply being the default, given it's the default before he inflicts anything and KR10+ is when it starts to actually do "something"?

Cause LV19 Frisk (For the record 20 is the max) should feel nothin about what they've been doing (MTT literally says we're pure evil) and legit provoke the sans fight in the first place, and yet you're saying they just out of nowhere started to feel bad about it? Oh and also again, they had KR since start of the fight, so this point is null.

It should do something, hell it should effect their emotions thinking on it too.

You felt your sins crawling on your back.

You felt your sins weighing on your neck.

It very explicitly made them FEEL something, and those expressions are very clearly trying to convey guilt.
The ability to make someone feel something is called Empathic Manipulation, so sans should have it.
****, it's one of the examples listed for the ability in the first place!

Weaken the enemy (via sorrow, guilt, regret)

This doesn't even do that, you're conflating being aware of something to being altered or manipulated emotionally.

Being manipulated emotionally is SI, this is just inducing a feeling. Empathic Manipulation.

The "feel" here is a metaphorical acknowledgment of sins, it does not say it made them actually regret it, feel guilty, or anything whatsoever.
This is by definition extreme extrapolation and rewriting.

So feel doesn't mean feel to you? The Expressions you yourself said are common phrases to express guilt, don't express guilt?
From the supernatural power called, ya know, KARMA.

Also "extreme extrapolation" when Toby went out of his way to tie those lines with the increase of KR, really think it means, nothing?

Different abilities. False equivalence. Debate properly or not at all please.

Weird how you want Empathic Manip to do more than induce a feeling, but also don't want it to do anything else either!
Literally, what is non-Minor Empathic hax to you? One that paralyses the opponent in fear? That's Paralysis Inducement, a different ability.
Or say makes the opponent give up with the power of love or whatever, ignoring the fact that's entirely dependent on who it's used on.

It should be labeled as minor because the effects of the ability are extremely minor with no tangible effects or benefits. Technically speaking it isn't even Empath hax because it doesn't actually effect their emotive state it just makes them aware of something.

It HAS tangible effects, again, the poison. Supernatural soul poison based on your sins.
And had "no affect on their emotional state"? Please explain what “You felt your sins weighing on your neck” means exactly.
You don't have to, it's being emotionally burdened by the consequences of their own actions. They were not burdened before, but now they are. It's almost like magic!

Actually, once again that's another case of "we have no idea what this is so we're just assuming".

It isn't even remotely confirmed to be "poison", that was just what it resembles due to the ticking down so that's what we went with; if you're arguing it's empath based and the more delivered the greater that empath is, so much so it "dooms one to death", that's no longer leaving the poison option on the table, the evidence points towards a completely different mechanism meaning we no longer have any reason to just guess poison.

If it it looks like a spade, it's probably a spade.

Also like, you know an ability can be more than 1 thing, right? If one of its sub-functions is 1-to-1 with another ability, then it's going to be listed as that + the main ability.

I legitimately do not care, do not argue whataboutisms. Argue Undertale, not this other verses with far more context, proof, and scans clarifying things.

You saying I'm hiding more info about it? You think so low of me =[

But hypothetically if it's effects are just making the opponent/friend Happy, Angry, Sad + A stat boost, would you list that as Minor Empathic Manip?

 

[Chariot190]

I don’t really agree with this sentiment. Powerscaling is also built on interpreting fictional text and mechanics, so some level of “maybe” or “likely” is unavoidable. Every profile here uses inference at some point. Also, saying it’s “just linguistics” or “just hyperbole” is still an interpretation, even if it’s phrased confidently. Both of you guys' positions have a degree of accuracy, the difference between them is which interpretation we find more supported or which one lacks support or whatever the material tries to tell.
Chariot is giving an interesting angle of the argument but the OP is also giving evidence and is making sense too
I will remain neutral for now.

And I disagree. You can, if you really wanted to, argue anything with enough mental gymnastics.
We're an indexing wiki, you can obviously have headcanon, interpretations and more elsewhere, that's fine, why wouldn't it be? But under no circumstance should one suggest something not actually rooted in anything as a concrete ability.

Hell that's what possibly is for, and by our own rules we only do that when it's actually a majority.

It being an interpretation doesn't matter, the burden is on the person trying to push the CRT,
If something lacks hard evidence, it should only ever be a "likely" at most.

The fact you deadass said this without realizing its a false equivalant is actually insane.

It isn't. They're quite literally the same as you're guessing that's the case.

Your argument is effectively
"Sans' stuff actually DOES do something (what that something is we don't know), Frisk only acts because The Player forces them to".
This is guesswork, they do not show or state the former (it does something of note to prevent action), and they do not say or show The Player had to intervene.

It's not just a guess, it's a guess on top of a guess.

In that vain, that same logic applies to everything we attribute to Frisk, that can just as easily be attributed to The Player forcing them to act despite no real implication of such.

You can not have your cake and eat it too, not only is the argument itself faulty, but that logic is a blatant double standard.

Also you said i didn't use a single scan in my argument but maybe just mayne thats because you ignored the comment used scans,also may i ask how many scans have you used on this entire discussion?

I don't need to use any scans what? I'm not the OP, it isn't my burden.
I don't need to disprove somthing you lads haven't even began to prove to begin with. This be like saying "yeah well you didn't NOT prove Goku was 1-A", like yeah cool but it's on you to prove he is.

And that's teh funny thing, what scans?
This entire thing is guesswork. It isn't like an of you know either, it's just vague inference and ironic that too, because I'm arguing based on the scans that have been given.
All my arguments are based on the "proof" Eden and Shion gave, whether that be the MR0, the veins, whatever. My scans are your scans, we just clearly have two different takes on them.
Also your attitude is very much pushing it. If you can't discuss this civilly, I will be informing a mod to supervise.

 

[God_of_perversion]

It isn't. They're quite literally the same as you're guessing that's the case.

Your argument is effectively
"Sans' stuff actually DOES do something (what that something is we don't know), Frisk only acts because The Player forces them to".
This is guesswork, they do not show or state the former (it does something of note to prevent action), and they do not say or show The Player had to intervene.

It's not just a guess, it's a guess on top of a guess.

In that vain, that same logic applies to everything we attribute to Frisk, that can just as easily be attributed to The Player forcing them to act despite no real implication of such.

You can not have your cake and eat it too, not only is the argument itself faulty, but that logic is a blatant double standard.

Go to Frisk's profile and list what should be removed based in the "the player is just forcibg them and thus they have zero abilities" also are you deadass saying that me saying that Frisk wouldn't be be stoped by empathic manip because she is acepted to be controled by the player is the same as you saying that she should have zero resistences because of that? Like you're the only one doing a leap in logic here

 

[God_of_perversion]

), Frisk only acts because The Player forces them to".
This is guesswork, they do not show or state the former (it does something of note to prevent action), and they do not say or show The Player had to intervene.

Nope the player controling Frisk isn't guess work since its acepted already. don't want ti acept that? Make a debunk crt and hope it will be acepted (it won't)

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

The main piece of evidence is from Frisk's interactions with the Dummy.

• At LV 1: They feel bad.
• At LV 9: They feel good (same is said in a full Genocide Run where you're LV 11/12 at the time)

For full/more precise info:

• If the protagonist's LV is 1, the response becomes "(You tap the dummy with your fist.) (You feel bad.)"
• If the protagonist's LV is between 2 and 4, the response becomes "(You hit the dummy lightly.) (You don't feel like you learned anything.)"
• If the protagonist's LV is between 5 and 7, the response becomes "(You sock the dummy.) (Who cares?)"
• If the protagonist's LV is 8 or higher, the response becomes "(You punch the dummy at full force.) (Feels good.)"

From Undertale wiki.

And yeah, agree with CRT.

 

[LittleGuy99]

Agree with everything

 

[AyOgUyS]

Ngl Chariot kinda has a point

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Ngl Chariot kinda has a point

That "You felt your sins weighing on your neck" isn't an expression of guilt?

 

[AyOgUyS]

That "You felt your sins weighing on your neck" isn't an expression of guilt?

I mean his point about it being flowery lowkenuinely make sense

its kinda like a "you're bearing the weight of the world" type statement

and it doesn't impact frisk at all and if we say that's cuz player we could say everything abt frisk is cuz player

we may as well give papyrus social influencing cuz it is possible for frisk to stop a genocide run after his speech

but like that don't feel right

also it is true that nothing really implies frisk actually felt guilty, just that they felt something which feels too vague for me to confidently say sans has any kind of reliable guilt inducement like his profile implies :/

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It's literally 1-to-1 with their amount of KARMA you have, the supernatural soul poison sans inflicts on you, which again is called KARMA, I feel I should emphasize that.

You can't argue it's metaphorical when it's explicitly caused by a status effect sans inflicts on us.

And how the hell is this at all comparable to your Papyrus example? In this case we know they felt guilty, the flavor text verbatim tells us. Against Papyrus we have no idea what Frisk is thinking. It's not in the slightest comparable.

 

[AyOgUyS]

And how the hell is this at all comparable to your Papyrus example? In this case we know they felt guilty, the flavor text verbatim tells us.

would you pls send the statement that says frisk felt guilty? because them feeling sins on their back doesn't at all indicate guilt.

 

[AyOgUyS]

It's literally 1-to-1 with their amount of KARMA you have, the supernatural soul poison sans inflicts on you, which again is called KARMA, I feel I should emphasize that.

i mean ok but it should still be specified that this effect:

is only applicable after sans lands a billion attacks

and also had no actual effect on Frisk

so the "Minor" rating makes a lotta sense

if we keep empathic MANIP at all

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

would you pls send the statement that says frisk felt guilty? because them feeling sins on their back doesn't at all indicate guilt.

"You felt your sins weighing on your neck"
Keyword being weighing.

Ask anyone what the expression means and they'll tell you it's being emotionally burdened by your actions.
That is a feeling, of guilt.

is only applicable after sans lands a billion attacks

KR is inflicted on us since the start of the fight and has an effect on us evej at 0-10 KR, a.k.a no attacks.

Where does this billion shit even come from? We get 20+ from getting scratched by sans' attacks lol

and also had no actual effect on Frisk

SOUL poison is very minor, indeed.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

How about we make Sans and Papyrus’ Bone Manipulation minor since they aren’t like breaking Frisk’s bones or smth crazy, just basic creation fr

 

[AyOgUyS]

"You felt your sins weighing on your neck"
Keyword being weighing.

Ask anyone what the expression means and they'll tell you it's being emotionally burdened by your actions.
That is a feeling, of guilt.

I asked myself and I said no :/

Even if its guilt its minor enough that Frisk isn't effected at all

Where does this billion shit even come from? We get 20+ from getting scratched by sans' attacks lol

Hyperboles and exaggerations in speech, what are those?

KR is inflicted on us since the start of the fight and has an effect on us evej at 0-10 KR, a.k.a no attacks.

then why r we assuming sans is inflicting it ._.

How about we make Sans and Papyrus’ Bone Manipulation minor since they aren’t like breaking Frisk’s bones or smth crazy, just basic creation fr

completely different ability

 

[Robo432343]

it should stay as minor empathic manip FRA

 

[AyOgUyS]

it should stay as minor empathic manip FRA

agreed. regardless of if we accept it has actually inducing guilt, it doesn't effect frisk at all and is only usable after sans lands a gazillion attacks :/

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

completely different ability

Still minor.

In fact, Toon Force, Summoning, IA, etc., even Superhuman Physical Characteristics and Genius Intelligence - they are all minor. They don’t have that crazy impact on fight.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Still minor.

In fact, Toon Force, Summoning, IA, etc., even Superhuman Physical Characteristics and Genius Intelligence - they are all minor. They don’t have that crazy impact on fight.

then sure let's slap minor or limited or whatever on it :/

 

[StrymULTRA]

Still minor.

In fact, Toon Force, Summoning, IA, etc., even Superhuman Physical Characteristics and Genius Intelligence - they are all minor. They don’t have that crazy impact on fight.

As long as it makes Sans a fodder for Deltarune characters I'd be down for that

 

[Steve1775]

As long as it makes Sans a fodder for Deltarune characters I'd be down for that

But why Isn't Sans cool?

 

[StrymULTRA]

But why Isn't Sans cool?

Wake up grandpa we're not in 2016 anymore.

 

[God_of_perversion]

Wake up grandpa we're not in 2016 anymore.

Sans is and has always been cool but yall love switching up on everthing and every one for no reason

 

[God_of_perversion]

As long as it makes Sans a fodder for Deltarune characters I'd be down for that

When i saw the Sans vs deltarune match ups i knew they were made out of spite but this,strymUltra you have gone too far (yes this is a papyrus.exe reference)

 

[StrymULTRA]

When i saw the Sans vs deltarune match ups i knew they were made out of spite but this,strymUltra you have gone too far (yes this is a papyrus.exe reference)

Wym out of spite? They were something planned for a while

 

[God_of_perversion]

Wym out of spite? They were something planned for a while

1:i was joking
2:you deadass did the roaring knight rematch knowing damn well it's a stomp bro

 

[LittleGuy99]

Sans is and has always been cool but yall love switching up on everthing and every one for no reason

Sans is cool, I'd want him to win any matchup... except against Deltarune characters

 

[God_of_perversion]

Sans is cool, I'd want him to win any matchup... except against Deltarune characters

Have you tought about entering the church of Sans undertale/deltarune? There we glaze Sans and talk about his writing which is communly ignored by the community (shionAH is part of it already)

 

[StrymULTRA]

2:you deadass did the roaring knight rematch knowing damn well it's a stomp bro

It wasn't, was only a super decisive match like 90% of JJBA fights.

 

[ShionAH]

Lying is a sin yknow

 

[Steve1775]

Wake up grandpa we're not in 2016 anymore.

noooo. I don't wanna leave my 9001th undertale stronger than you anims

 

[God_of_perversion]

It wasn't, was only a super decisive match like 90% of JJBA fights.

Tell me a single USABLE wincon Sans had brotato

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tell me a single USABLE wincon Sans had brotato

Big Gaster blaster smh

 

[ShionAH]

Big Gaster blaster smh