Problems with High 1-A Homestuck|STAFF VOTES [2 : 0]

[Hecky2222]

I was reading through Homestuck CRT and realized how outdated it is by current standards

Credits to @Mr._East_Statement and @BlazeISbot111 for helping with arguments

So to start, as always, I believe you are knowledgeable how dimensional scaling works generally. Generally how they work and when are valid.

Furthermore, I believe the person who reads this is aware of how tier 1-A works and what are its disqualifiers.

Anyways lets get back to our wank again

Reality Fiction?????? Seriously

This is not Reality > Fiction Transcendance (R > F which we scale to Quality State) to begin with.

First, we can start with something small. They are infinitely larger to their object of transcendence they were supposed to view as "fiction". Why is it relevant? Anyone who knows, from 1-A to above, knows your size is completely irrelevant to something you view as non-existence or fiction, utter and complete nothingness. Whereas infinity or infinitely more is still quantity comparison which is already anti feat. Well you can say by itself it is not anti feat but let's go further and connect whole argument used for R > F.

Moreover, quantity comparison there even literal. “Unimaginably small”, “unimaginably large”, etc.

Not to mention, the worst part, “Reality FIction” there is not literally reality fiction transcendance.

For context they are comparing pictures and pixels as R > F, a “bigger picture” and that “a bigger picture is only a single pixel”.

To put it within an analogy you understand: we know 1080P and 4K contain pixels, yet those pixels are still something in 8K, Infinite P image resolution. This comparison is literally just saying quantity. In larger image they are infinitesmall which is obviously +1D instead of 1A. I believe writers there literally meant characters being infinitesmall instead of seeing them as fiction. Well if they were outside of that pictures probably that might count as "R F"(Which we use where lower world is non-existent) but images in pixels? L-O-L.

Analogies simple: Higher world imagines lower casuality, yet they are pixel in big image(there big image is higher world) and higher world is infinitely larger and vaster to lower one. Meaning lower world isn't non-existent(which is basic qualification for 1-A) but still exists as something in bigger world. This reasoning isn't enough for 1-A

So what I mean there? This analogy is "Universes are like pixels in images where higher world is infinitely vaster and larger to lower one. Hence even if it is R > F this would make them +1-D or higher dimensional analogy where lower world is infinitesmall compared to higher world.

So 1A+ there is just High 1B at best due to quantity R > F.

What about rest? Well…

Well, looking into their original CRT, the argument is this from OP’s own words and links

Furthest Ring

Now we move on to the next part of reality: The Furthest Ring, home to the Horrorterrors.

It is a infinite void that exists outside of the universes and is completely untouched by their spacetime, the all-encompassing nothingness considered the default reality and the most fundamental layer of the cosmology, with universes, dream bubbles and sessions all being short lived anomalous dream-like irregularities existing as bubbles blown by the horroterrors.

It is also the canvas where the aspects themselves exist on, with the aspects being the source of all concepts, being effectively unseparable due to how mixed and intertwined they are there, to the point where space and time are unreliable and trying to move in one leads you to randomly moving through the other, and considering that it is untouched by the spacetime of universes, then the spacetime there must come from the aspects themselves, and those would be higher levels of space and time due to existing indepedently from the universes that already have them.

In textbook it looks like Low 1A, it basically has two things which are to outreach space-time and being all encompassing as the most fundamental layer of reality. it has no mentions of qualitative superiority by stressing a different nature for it over the rest of cosmology or any stressing over an "inaccessibleness" that is by virtue of their "otherness." However if conceptual stuff counts as 1A(idk?) I would suggest it as Low 1A, Possibly 1A. But if conceptual stuff is 1A it should stay at Outer

Moving on, the next thing is Paradox Space.

Paradox Space

Paradox space's nature is harder to explain due to it being very "subtle" in many aspects thanks to it's role in the story, as in, the characters rarely talk about what paradox space is, they mostly rant about paradox space sucking due to fate and rules being unfair and apathic, fortunately we have bits of information scaterred around, as well as implications.

the main thing to remember is that paradox space is mean't to be the entire the setting of the story, containing everything in existence, being reality itself and the multiverse.

However, there are implications that the events of the comic, including Lord English's entire existence, is one big loop mantained by paradox space, and that said loop is "stitched to the fabric of cyclical reality", as well as being part of the "cyclical, fatalistic prison of the story", and John's freedom from the story is what allows him to fight back against said inevitability.

So it seems like Paradox Space is in fact, a sort of "timeline" for everything inside of it at bare minimun, despite the concept of time, which includes fate and causality, and Doom, which deals with inevitability and rules, being inside of the Furthest Ring which is contained by it, and it's destruction being part of said loop given that Paradox Space still exists after the furthest ring is gone, and the meteor that exists on Earth C being the one Caliborn lives on, and given the nature of said loop and inevitability being tied to the story, it could also be a qualitative superiority, as it would be a loop of the narrative itself.

so Paradox Space is superior to the Furthest Ring as either a hypertimeline (one that's beyond the concept of time which is itself beyond infinite levels of higher fate, causality and stories).

it scales 1 layer into High 1-A.

Same goes for it, if Furthest Ring is ok for 1-A it should stay 1-A, if no , there is no quality superiority anyway

Then we reach the finale of it

Summary of Arguments from both sides:
Supporters: 1, 2 , 3(Third one is for defending 1-A Furthest Ring)
Opponents: 1, 2

So if things are clear we will divide things into proposal

1. Giving Furthering Ring a flat out L1-A, with Paradox Space merely being 1 layer into L1-A as it undergo no quality change.

1. Giving them “L1-A, possibly 1-A” by sparing them the potential for 1-A
2. Ring and Paradox space should be 1-A if Ring qualifies for BDE Type 3(I agree with this option personally)

Either way it is up to discussion

Edit: After reading discussion with supporters I am pretty much convinced Furthest Ring and Paradox Space should qualify for 1-A via reasoning here

This CRT, effects all the scalings below:

Retcon John Egbert, Davepetasprite^2, Weakened Lord English and Noble Cycle of Horrorterrors = Furthering

Transcedent Feferi Peixes and MSPAReader = Paradox Space

However there are things Op did not elaborated in his previous CRT, which I honestly do not know how to consider within this situation, but for the sake of CRT, we can take them to be true as we have no other way unfortunately.

Lord English, Ultimate selves (Dirk, Rose and Dave), Andrew Hussie, The Blackout (Retcon John Egbert and MSPAReader and Black Hole Alternate Calliope = R>F over Paradox Space

First Guardian MSPAReader = apparentely he has R>F over Dirk and Calliope(???)

Agree with first option: @ItsMeat, @Cipher72

Agree with second option:

Agree with third option: @Deonment (Agrees with Universes being not enough for 1A+ but Ring and Paradox Space should stay at 1A), @Mr._East_Statement, @FoxySonicMaster108 , @Hecky2222, @Vietthai96

Disagree, OP drunk lot: @Maniaunavailable

@FinePoint (Agrees with High 1-A Removal)

Neutral:

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Oh holy man, this is peak, big W for you.

Anyway agree with the option 1, obviously, "No quality change=no 1-A for you." And so neither Furthering Ring or Paradox Space show us such.

And well…

On the most fundamental layer of the ecology/cosmology, you have the horrorterrors, huge beasts we can't fathom and have no earthly basis for comparison (except Lovecraft's garbage, obviously). But the layer closer to the plane of existence we relate to is governed by an ecology of fauna we can also relate to better, which is an array of reptilian and amphibious creatures, with frogs being the most important. So important that they are the vessels for all physical reality we understand, and all other lifeforms on this order play a subordinate or auxiliary role in the cosmic makeup.

This line was exactly what give me determination for the debunk…

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Fast

 

[Orioreeem]

Even in 1-A can't you have space-times and dimensions on that level?
Like someone can view something as fiction and live in 1-A level world that has it's own space and time

 

[ItsMeat]

Option 1 seems the best

 

[BoastJr]

Disagree for azerty's reasons below

 

[ItsMeat]

Disagree for azerty's reasons below

Azerty the goat is going to nuke the thread

 

[Hecky2222]

Even in 1-A can't you have space-times and dimensions on that level?
Like someone can view something as fiction and live in 1-A level world that has it's own space and time

1A can have but you cant be comparable by quantity to non 1A

Not to mention R > F is literally being pixel in picture(Not outside keep at mind)

 

[Cipher72]

Even in 1-A can't you have space-times and dimensions on that level?

Yes

Like someone can view something as fiction and live in 1-A level world that has it's own space and time

Yes

If I understood correctly the point isn't that but rather than the R>F itself is solely based on an gap in Quantity.

 

[Thelastmlg]

wait i'm confused, isn't this thread literally the same as azathoth's thread, where we pretty much discussed all of this and came to the conclusion that, if my last argument of the creators in the hierachy not being the narrative kind by the director's description, doesn't work then it is downgraded (we are just waiting for azathoth to come back)

and i believe the first option is the best one since the furthest ring considers those (at least) infinitely dimensional universes as "dreamlike anomalous fields", adding the whole conceptual and fundamental stuff and their spacetime not touching it i think it should be baseline Outer at least

and the stuff i didn't elaborate on was also brought up in that thread, though i think is best to first deal with the cosmology, then how they scale to it (since later everyone's just gonna scale to it lol trust)

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

There was a discussion about this happening already (I might talk about this more later, I just don’t have the energy to try and debate Homestuck the over 8,000 page thing rn )

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Holy bait

 

[Maniaunavailable]

what the last said, they are currently disscusing this, so this CRT is a bad move

edit: also isn't the verse on revision? iirc u can't do a CRT for a verse on current revisons

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Using terms of "larger" and "smaller" isn't really an anti-feat on its own but what I do find it interesting is:

"yet none the less for that you in your smallness and your small world are indispensable, like a key piece at the bottom of an infinitely tall jenga tower."

This kinda suggests that the higher worlds are built upon and are to some extent reliant on these lower worlds meaning they aren't disconnected in composition. Also it's likened to being a pixel of a picture, and pixels are basically composition of a digital picture.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Using terms of "larger" and "smaller" isn't really an anti-feat on its own but what I do find it interesting is:

This kinda suggests that the higher worlds are built upon and are to some extent reliant on these lower worlds meaning they aren't disconnected in composition. Also it's likened to being a pixel of a picture, and pixels are basically composition of a digital picture.

Tbf the entire thing is meant to be a callback to the time MSPA Reader imagined causality like a river, in which we get this, so uh...

But yeah this CRT is basically the same as Azathoth's but with way less, so thus I disagree with this for now like in the previous thread at least until more comes out (honestly this should've just waited for that CRT to be completed but man)

 

[Deonment]

How you gonna make me want to go back to the homestuck thread and post again with this type of OP
FR anywhere below 1-A is wack, the aspects are literally platonic concepts, (and even if they weren't) space and time are directly two aspects we know exist and act in such a way to give the themselves, and thus the ring by proxy, 1-A

Secondly, Paradox Space, as a concept and structure, is superordinate to even the narrators themselves, transcendence path MSPA, and Feferi don't scale to it

This kinda suggests that the higher worlds are built upon and are to some extent reliant on these lower worlds meaning they aren't disconnected in composition. Also it's likened to being a pixel of a picture, and pixels are basically composition of a digital picture.

While I don't agree with the hierarchy being 1-A+ (for a multitude of reasons, one can see if they go look at Azathoth's thread), this isn't an argument I would use for it, this is mostly due to the nature of paradox space than anything, wherein everything is interconnected to a degree, events all have to be validated (so to speak) for reality to progress, otherwise you just create a doomed timeline and get your whole reality erased instead, so it's less about them being built on it, and moreso them being causally interdependent with them

 

[Hecky2222]

wait i'm confused, isn't this thread literally the same as azathoth's thread, where we pretty much discussed all of this and came to the conclusion that, if my last argument of the creators in the hierachy not being the narrative kind by the director's description, doesn't work then it is downgraded (we are just waiting for azathoth to come back)

and i believe the first option is the best one since the furthest ring considers those (at least) infinitely dimensional universes as "dreamlike anomalous fields", adding the whole conceptual and fundamental stuff and their spacetime not touching it i think it should be baseline Outer at least

and the stuff i didn't elaborate on was also brought up in that thread, though i think is best to first deal with the cosmology, then how they scale to it (since later everyone's just gonna scale to it lol trust)

Sorry man but I have no patience soooooo

Anyway what I am trying to downgrade there is pretty much simplier than what Azathoth tried to make. Since I worked as graphic editor I questioned how R > F in your CRT works as well and yeah no. Pixels in pictures not really "Quality R > F"s. Basically what I explained but shorter: Being tiny pixel in some big infinite pixel image isnt being nothingness to them. Unless i am missing something which might change things(Since I am not a reader I just saw your CRT full reasoning only) and you want to argue pixels thing I don't see how it is 1A ngl

Using terms of "larger" and "smaller" isn't really an anti-feat on its own but what I do find it interesting is:

This kinda suggests that the higher worlds are built upon and are to some extent reliant on these lower worlds meaning they aren't disconnected in composition. Also it's likened to being a pixel of a picture, and pixels are basically composition of a digital picture.

Ye but if you read OP's reasoning for 1A from his CRT and connect his premise all together. This is essentially what you said, sounds like how lower worlds are just infinitesmall(Thus size is very relevant cuz they are pixels in bigger picture). This doesn't look like R > F for 1A to me.

Tbf the entire thing is meant to be a callback to the time MSPA Reader imagined causality like a river, in which we get this, so uh...

But yeah this CRT is basically the same as Azathoth's but with way less, so thus I disagree with this for now like in the previous thread at least until more comes out (honestly this should've just waited for that CRT to be completed but man)

How that explains pixels being infinitesmall to higher pictures exactly?

 

[Hecky2222]

How you gonna make me want to go back to the homestuck thread and post again with this type of OP
FR anywhere below 1-A is wack, the aspects are literally platonic concepts, (and even if they weren't) space and time are directly two aspects we know exist and act in such a way to give the themselves, and thus the ring by proxy, 1-A

Secondly, Paradox Space, as a concept and structure, is superordinate to even the narrators themselves, transcendence path MSPA, and Feferi don't scale to it

While I don't agree with the hierarchy being 1-A+ (for a multitude of reasons, one can see if they go look at Azathoth's thread), this isn't an argument I would use for it, this is mostly due to the nature of paradox space than anything, wherein everything is interconnected to a degree, events all have to be validated (so to speak) for reality to progress, otherwise you just create a doomed timeline and get your whole reality erased instead, so it's less about them being built on it, and moreso them being causally interdependent with them

well lot people said so and i am impatient one. I am not questioning if they are "infinite transcendant" or "who scales to cosmology" anyway

I am questioning validity of R > F which was used and accepted there. This is just how lower worlds are infinitely tiny compared to higher worlds thus higher worlds are infinitely larger and vaster to them whereas lower worlds are tiny pixels in it(From OP's premise at least).

I agree paradox space remaining 1A if conceptual stuff is actually valid. But there we are discussing now if "R > F" is R F or pixels in bigger pictures

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

well lot people said so and i am impatient one. I am not questioning if they are "infinite transcendant" or "who scales to cosmology" anyway

I am questioning validity of R > F which was used and accepted there. This is just how lower worlds are infinitely tiny compared to higher worlds thus higher worlds are infinitely larger and vaster to them whereas lower worlds are tiny pixels in it(From OP's premise at least).

I agree paradox space remaining 1A if conceptual stuff is actually valid. But there we are discussing now if "R > F" is R F or pixels in bigger pictures

If I recall, it's because the infinite hierarchy was seen as narrative based, thus R>F, which I see the logic given how they mention "the Story" and "the larger story", which there are other ways of seeing that way, given how causality is used in Homestuck at times. With plot fate and causality can be seen as interconnected (see Caliborn's nonsense about causality answering him yadadada I mentioned that in the other thread)

Honestly just let Azathoth come back cuz he could have more to say (and I know for a fact he knows Homestuck), alas I wouldn't recommend making a CRT on a series you don't really know but that's just me.

Either way, Furthest Ring being below 1-A is crazy, like Deon said.

 

[Hecky2222]

If I recall, it's because the infinite hierarchy was seen as narrative based, thus R>F, which I see the logic given how they kept mention "the Story" and "the larger story", which there are ways of seeing that way, given how causality is used in Homestuck at times with plot fate and causality can be seen as interconnected (see Caliborn's nonsense about causality answering him yadadada I mentioned that in the other thread)

Honestly just let Azathoth come back cuz he could have more to say (and I know for a fact he knows Homestuck), alas I wouldn't recommend making a CRT on a series you don't really know but that's just me.

I didn't disagree with infinite hierarchy

I disagree reasoning used being R > F for 1A levels. Azathoth is essentially arguing them being not infinite. Whereas I doubt "pixels in bigger imagers" being non-existent. If you have context for that I would like to explanation for that maybe I am misinterpretating. Again read OP's premise and exactly link you gave me. Whole river looks like

Lower worlds are just tiny things in higher pictures
Higher pictures(or rivers) are infinitely larger to lower ones
And this goes infinitely

This sounds to me in textbook "Pixel in infinite pixel picture" thing.

 

[Robo432343]

Hey There, Would You Like to Talk About Homestuck's Weird Metanarrative Tiering?

I said I'd only post here sporadically about a few key things that interest me. The fact that one of them is Homestuck probably reflects poorly on me as a person. Anyway, I noticed that a number of Homestuck pages are currently rated as High 1-A based around statements that come from Feferi's...

vsbattles.com

bruh there is already a thread about this

 

[Hecky2222]

Hey There, Would You Like to Talk About Homestuck's Weird Metanarrative Tiering?

I said I'd only post here sporadically about a few key things that interest me. The fact that one of them is Homestuck probably reflects poorly on me as a person. Anyway, I noticed that a number of Homestuck pages are currently rated as High 1-A based around statements that come from Feferi's...

vsbattles.com

bruh there is already a thread about this

. Read Azathoth's premise and this premise. I am not questioning if they are not infinite or not. We are questioning R > F which was accepted is R F or not

 

[Deonment]

I disagree reasoning used being R > F for 1A levels. Azathoth is essentially arguing them being not infinite.

Azathoth wasn't arguing the hierarchy wasn't infinite (it's pretty expressly so, I potentially argued that the hierarchy was instead partially a metaphor for an infinite regress of first causes and whatnot, which is it's own arguments), he was arguing the hierarchy wasn't layers of R>F, which is what this thread is about anyways

I agree paradox space remaining 1A if conceptual stuff is actually valid. But there we are discussing now if "R > F" is R F or pixels in bigger pictures

Furthest Ring, not Paradox Space, and it is, I already posted the stuff regarding it on Azathoth's thread, would be easy to find as it's at the top of page 2

 

[Maniaunavailable]

put me on disagree even if it dosnt matter, foxy makes more sense here

 

[Hecky2222]

Azathoth wasn't arguing the hierarchy wasn't infinite (it's pretty expressly so, I potentially argued that the hierarchy was instead partially a metaphor for an infinite regress of first causes and whatnot, which is it's own arguments), he was arguing the hierarchy wasn't layers of R>F, which is what this thread is about anyways

Furthest Ring, not Paradox Space, and it is, I already posted the stuff regarding it on Azathoth's thread, would be easy to find as it's at the top of page 2

I am looking to thread and can't find in where Azathoth brought up "pixels" thing?

Also I misspelled Furthest Ring ye that conceptual domain. Ye i wouldn't mind Furthest Ring, Paradox Space remaining 1A. My problem comes from 1A R > F argument

 

[Deonment]

I am looking to thread and can't find in where Azathoth brought up "pixels" thing?

Didn't argue specifically regarding the pixel scan, but did argue along the same lines that no, this hierarchy and its evidence isn't enough for 1-A

 

[Hecky2222]

Didn't argue specifically regarding the pixel scan, but did argue along the same lines that no, this hierarchy and its evidence isn't enough for 1-A

So you agree hierarchy being not 1A and everything above(Furthest Ring, Paradox Space?) should stay 1A from your point if I understood you correctly?

 

[Reiner04]

Hey There, Would You Like to Talk About Homestuck's Weird Metanarrative Tiering?

I said I'd only post here sporadically about a few key things that interest me. The fact that one of them is Homestuck probably reflects poorly on me as a person. Anyway, I noticed that a number of Homestuck pages are currently rated as High 1-A based around statements that come from Feferi's...

vsbattles.com

bruh there is already a thread about this

Given the OP's inactivity and the age of that thread (4 months), a fresh thread is fine. Ant has already given the green light to anyone who wants to handle that topic, and a new thread will be much easier to handle and manage for whoever decides to take over.

 

[Cipher72]

Bump also I agree since most of the previous arguments in defence were based on the existence of the previous CRT.

anywhere below 1-A is wack, the aspects are literally platonic concepts, (and even if they weren't) space and time are directly two aspects we know exist and act in such a way to give the themselves, and thus the ring by proxy, 1-A

Secondly, Paradox Space, as a concept and structure, is superordinate to even the narrators themselves, transcendence path MSPA, and Feferi don't scale to it

I will let OP respond to this
For now I will go with this

Giving them “L1-A, possibly 1-A” by sparing them the potential for 1-A

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

Honestly supporters couldn't convince me the Further Ring being 1-A, all they added was it being some conceptual space (of course it is when it is abstract). I still believe it being just L1-A, unless I see some statement that suggest quality change, I think this would be a good example (if we don't want to go with cases like Warhammer 40k's Warp which are obviously far better).

I am mostly same as Cipher, either straightup L1-A or "L1-A, possibly 1-A."

And the problem with the R > F is clear as been already said straightforwardly, so agree it being downgraded to H1-B."

 

[Hecky2222]

I will let OP respond to this
For now I will go with this

To be clear, I don't mind Furthest Ring staying 1-A and Paradox Space being 1 Layer into 1-A if mods will accept it. Since Furthest Ring is conceptual realm I can see potentiality it being 1-A

Idea of Furthest Ring being not 1-A came from @Mr._East_Statement but I dont mind either way so proposals there and it is up to discussion if people thinks it should be 1-A or not

 

[Deonment]

all they added was it being some conceptual space (of course it is when it is abstract)

??? That wasn't my argument, my argument is that the furthest ring at it's most basic level is made up of the aspects, which are 1-A due to being the platonic concepts of space, time, mind, heart, hope, rage, breath, blood, life, doom, light, and void (with piss, tears and lips as extras depending upon how literal we want to take Hussie WoG shitposts)

unless I see some statement that suggest quality change,

Not only does there not need to be such explicitness, homestuck has that shit
Firstly ofc the aspect stuff I mentioned above, which, if you really want to see, you can see everything here, and if needs be I can grab more shit to beat the point in, such as the aspects being wholly indivisable concepts, that all of reality's concepts are "filtered" so to speak from them, and stuff to do with Skaia
But beyond that, lemme just quote my past self here

The aspects are platonic concepts, including those of space and time, with the Furthest Ring existing as the default reality and canvas in which every other reality is contained, including all realities that can be created by Skaia, all the while remaining untouched by their space and time/laws of physics (and more stuff I can't fit in this).

The furthest ring is explicitly separate from and transcendent to the lower realities, not being a bubble-based structure (which refers to sessions/dream bubbles and literally every universe ever) that is dreamt or blown up by the horrorterrors

 

[Hecky2222]

??? That wasn't my argument, my argument is that the furthest ring at it's most basic level is made up of the aspects, which are 1-A due to being the platonic concepts of space, time, mind, heart, hope, rage, breath, blood, life, doom, light, and void (with piss, tears and lips as extras depending upon how literal we want to take Hussie WoG shitposts)

Not only does there not need to be such explicitness, homestuck has that shit
Firstly ofc the aspect stuff I mentioned above, which, if you really want to see, you can see everything here, and if needs be I can grab more shit to beat the point in, such as the aspects being wholly indivisable concepts, that all of reality's concepts are "filtered" so to speak from them, and stuff to do with Skaia
But beyond that, lemme just quote my past self here

The furthest ring is explicitly separate from and transcendent to the lower realities, not being a bubble-based structure (which refers to sessions/dream bubbles and literally every universe ever) that is dreamt or blown up by the horrorterrors

Wanted to say, world being stated "platonical" only shouldn't scale anywhere. But giving evidence, that world is conceptual, immutable and completely transcendant over lower-world I pretty much agree now Furthest Ring being 1-A.

Only thing I am still not sure where R > F over Paradox Space came from since @Thelastmlg didn't provide scans based on that

 

[Deonment]

Wanted to say, world being stated "platonical" only shouldn't scale anywhere. But giving evidence, that world is conceptual, immutable and completely transcendant over lower-world I pretty much agree now Furthest Ring being 1-A.

The statement(s) of them being platonic is only side evidence to show even more what they are meant to be, my main reason I'm stating platonicness here is that under our system (True) Platonic concepts are 1-A, and the aspects qualify as them

Only thing I am still not sure where R > F over Paradox Space came from since @Thelastmlg didn't provide scans based on that

You mean Paradox Space being fictional to the Furthest Ring or the Furthest Ring being fictional to Paradox Space, because the former just, doesn't exist and shouldn't work in any scenario (Paradox Space encompasses the Furthest Ring), but for the latter, it's the fact that everyone's meta selves (Authors/Narrators, Ult Tiers, LE, Alt Calliope, and First Guardian MSPA) are still bound by and contained "within" it, being either the unwritten page, so to speak, or it being the Narrative in-of-itself, in it contains every Story (from more than just this) (which sees their contents as being fiction (not exactly, but you have an idea of what I mean)), and scales to the people who actually see all this as Fiction
So it's just like
FR<(R>F)<Meta Selves/The Story<(Non-RF)<Paradox Space
(and as of our current scaling, we have First Guardian MSPA as above Paradox Space, but I fundamentally disagree with that)

 

[Hecky2222]

The statement(s) of them being platonic is only side evidence to show even more what they are meant to be, my main reason I'm stating platonicness here is that under our system (True) Platonic concepts are 1-A, and the aspects qualify as them

You mean Paradox Space being fictional to the Furthest Ring or the Furthest Ring being fictional to Paradox Space, because the former just, doesn't exist and shouldn't work in any scenario (Paradox Space encompasses the Furthest Ring), but for the latter, it's the fact that everyone's meta selves (Authors/Narrators, Ult Tiers, LE, Alt Calliope, and First Guardian MSPA) are still bound by and contained "within" it, being either the unwritten page, so to speak, or it being the Narrative in-of-itself, in it contains every Story (from more than just this) (which sees their contents as being fiction (not exactly, but you have an idea of what I mean)), and scales to the people who actually see all this as Fiction
So it's just like
FR<(R>F)<Meta Selves/The Story<(Non-RF)<Paradox Space
(and as of our current scaling, we have First Guardian MSPA as above Paradox Space, but I fundamentally disagree with that)

No. I mean exactly Paradox Space being fictional to Lord English and others.

No scans on that + profile scans not working. Not exactly sure where it comes from

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

No. I mean exactly Paradox Space being fictional to Lord English and others.

No scans on that + profile scans not working. Not exactly sure where it comes from

Yeah won't hold, this is just transferring the old scaling LOL, the scaling definitely needs some changing, which that I'd be okay with (given Lord English relying on Paradox Space despite scaling above it is actually insanely wrong I shouldn't need to explain that.)

 

[Hecky2222]

Yeah won't hold, this is just transferring the old scaling LOL, the scaling definitely needs some changing, which that I'd be okay with (given Lord English relying on Paradox Space despite scaling above it is actually insanely wrong I shouldn't need to explain that.)

Scaling + Scans. Lot scans are expired, you can check that in my OP about Furthest Ring and Paradox Space also(I just copy pasted that all from old accepted thread)

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Scaling + Scans. Lot scans are expired, you can check that in my OP about Furthest Ring and Paradox Space also(I just copy pasted that all from old accepted thread)

The scans shouldn't be hard to replace, given the links are just mirrors of the old Homestuck site, with the new one it shouldn't be hard to replace those links.

 

[Deonment]

No. I mean exactly Paradox Space being fictional to Lord English and others.

No scans on that + profile scans not working. Not exactly sure where it comes from

Oh, iirc it either was assuming the full light of reality mentioned in the transcendence path was paradox space, and thus since they were still "part of the story" despite transcending to there, LE/Authors and whatnot transcendent them, ergo Authors>Paradox Space/Transcendence Path>Furthest Ring, or it was an argument about how paradox space transcending it due to everything below still being bound by its cyclical nature and whatnot
Either way, it is kinda just ******

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Yeah I have VERY big issues with the scaling looking back, it's pretty bad, but that could be saved for another thread (unless thelastmlg wants to explain it now)