Harbinger of Roaring vs Horseman of Conquest | Roaring Knight vs Makima (Deltarune vs Chainsaw Man)

[Qurbonboev]

Story: After failure of Gun Devil, US Government contracts Roaring Knight for task of killing Makima, and it accepts

Makima is aware of Knight status and has prior knowledge(including Soul damage)
Knight knows about Makima abilities, and that she can summon minions, but not exact knowledge of minions abilities.

Distance is 100 meters
Speed is equalized
Location is Dark World in Tokyo
SBA

Makima has massively higher attack speed (x56.5)
Knight has massive LS advantage (x48177)

Knight:

Makima: @Arkenis , @Steve1775

Incon:

 

[Arkenis]

Knight doesn't have good regen from what I can on the Lightner page and he has little ways to attack if Makima decides to attack from kms away with any combo of hax. How will he survive the bio hax, the cosmo devil, the stone devil, or her just summoning Hell devil to bfr?

 

[GodEarh206]

Okay, like in battles involving "Makima," it's still about Makima being able to "see" her opponent's abilities and finding the best way to fight them, as she did when trying to counter Darkness Devil with Bio Hax because he had Force Field Shield. So here, I'll say that Makima will immediately use things like Cosmo, Petrify, BFR, etc., if necessary.

And knowing the opponent's weaknesses is also a capability.

 

[Breadbear83]

Is makima allowed to change the battle location to hell if she makes a contract with the hell devil to teleport the knight to hell? (if in this verse equalization, hell and dark worlds can be connected)

She once made in the international assassin arc a contract with him to teleport herself and the others back to earth, and many devil hunters, by sacrificing themselves could summon him, a dark world in Tokyo would still have devil hunters for her to use to summon hell devil on the knight

Also, would she knowledge of how dark world work? Like the "living beings" in there being just objects? She could see them a inferior live forms like she perceives animals like rats are, she can use them to spy or even teleport (using a bunch of rats to teleport in front of rezee, even the cyber world has rat darkness in there, and there could be real rats lighteners in there too)

As there's such a gap of strength (and so durability) makima would need to kill him throught taxes like limited death manipulation from curse devil or get to control the knight with her chains, as they are durability negatipn

 

[Qurbonboev]

Knight doesn't have good regen

How much it's relevant, when Knight is ttwo tiers above Makima strongest attack?

How will he survive the bio hax

Inorganic physiology

the cosmo devil

How much setup she needs?

the stone devil

Doesn't Kusakabe needs to draw circle first? Knight won't allow it

or her just summoning Hell devil to bfr?

How much time it needs for setup?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

How will he survive the bio hax, the cosmo devil, the stone devil, or her just summoning Hell devil to bfr?

Papyrus is an inorganic so bio hax is useless here.
Cosmo and Stone Devil get blizted.
Hell Devil is sorta the only wincon here.

Makima will also need to know that Rory Knite slashing the air means that the attack is just going to appear on her, and nuke her soul.

 

[Breadbear83]

How much it's relevant, when Knight is ttwo tiers above Makima strongest attack?


Inorganic physiology


How much setup she needs?


Doesn't Kusakabe needs to draw circle first? Knight won't allow it

How much time it needs for setup?

You are mostly right, cosmo devil needs to do her hallo-ween attack which requires a few seconds and doesn't seem to have long range, and so with inorganic physiology and kusakabe setup

But about hell devil, in chapter 84, the hands that comes from the doors in sky, reaches Pochita in an instant without he reacting (even thought he literally blitzed hell devil the chapter before) and as soon a the hands touches pochita, he doesn't seems to be directly grabbed by the hands, as an instant touch already made Pochita disappear from our eyes, so nothing implies that Pochita or someone else could just dodge the hand, at most just killing hell devil before they summon the hands, but that would be if they were aware of how dangerous is him and even he being sliced in pieces let him still summon the hand that got pochita to hell

So that's why I also asked you if Makima changing the battle location mid fight is allowed

 

[Arkenis]

How much it's relevant, when Knight is ttwo tiers above Makima strongest attack?

Well she has dura negging hax so tiers don't matter.

How much setup she needs?

Don't think she needs any besides summoning.

Doesn't Kusakabe needs to draw circle first? Knight won't allow it

Why not? He'll be getting surrounded by the weapon devils, a large group of zombies, Makima's BANGS, her own hax, Angel devil potentially sneaking him with a touch or his swords.

How much time it needs for setup?

She should already have it given there's no different keys for her.

Papyrus is an inorganic so bio hax is useless here.

Don't think that matters much, DD is made from bones, and still bleeds.

Cosmo and Stone Devil get blizted.

Unless he's got some time hax or percep manip, I don't see him stopping Cosmo from saying one word, he'd have to destroy her head while potentially getting attacked from dozens of other attacks.

Makima will also need to know that Rory Knite slashing the air means that the attack is just going to appear on her, and nuke her soul.

Just gets redirected.

 

[Arkenis]

Also this like the sixth Makima match up including one I made, what is going on lmao

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Don't think that matters much, DD is made from bones, and still bleeds.

Bones aren't inorganic, so this isn't a comparable case.

Unless he's got some time hax or percep manip, I don't see him stopping Cosmo from saying one word, he'd have to destroy her head while potentially getting attacked from dozens of other attacks.

Cosmo is Supersonic+ while Makima is a blitz over High Hypersonic+, the rest of Makima's summons don't fare much better.
Cosmo is never getting close enough to Papyrus to use it lol

Just gets redirected.

It attacks the soul, would be NLF to say that also gets redirected.
That's why Makima even has a loss to Link rn

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This is going to be a redo of the Makima vs. Power fight basically, expect Makima can't come back.

 

[Qurbonboev]

but that would be if they were aware of how dangerous is him and even he being sliced in pieces let him still summon the hand that got pochita to hell

Knight does know that minions have dangerous abilities, so she would take care of it. Her swords are pretty big, at least 1.5 m in width, and 5 m in length. Any minion would turn into paste on contact. Shapeshifting + Teleportation + Red wind(Telekinesis that would easily fold anyone in the verse)

Why not? He'll be getting surrounded by the weapon devils, a large group of zombies, Makima's BANGS, her own hax, Angel devil potentially sneaking him with a touch or his swords.

Knight can easily produce ridiculous amount of danmaku. And can use it together with Telekinesis(Red Wind) to push back enemies

 

[God_of_perversion]

Can Makima do anything against Titan summoning?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Can Makima do anything against Titan summoning?

BFRing Carol to Hell before she summons it Ig

 

[God_of_perversion]

Oh wait he has class g telekinesis what can Makima and he summons do against it?

 

[Arkenis]

Bones aren't inorganic, so this isn't a comparable case.

Bones are half and half, calcium is inorganic but they also have collagen. I doubt DD has organs is all.

Cosmo is Supersonic+ while Makima is a blitz over High Hypersonic+, the rest of Makima's summons don't fare much better.
Cosmo is never getting close enough to Papyrus to use it lol

Its equal speed so idk why you're bringing up speed differences.

It attacks the soul, would be NLF to say that also gets redirected.
That's why Makima even has a loss to Link rn

Don't bring up other matches for one, and I'm not saying everything of her aspect of her existence is protected by her contract, that'd be NLF. I'm saying her soul should be an aspect of her that's protected and I haven't seen a reason why it shouldn't.

 

[God_of_perversion]

BFRing Carol to Hell before she summons it Ig

Asriel*

 

[God_of_perversion]

Its equal speed so idk why you're bringing up speed differences.

I don't think summons have their speeds equalized

 

[Arkenis]

Knight can easily produce ridiculous amount of danmaku. And can use it together with Telekinesis(Red Wind) to push back enemies

Just looks like a plain straight line of swords, wouldn't say that's danmaku. Is there another example of an array like a complex danmaku since that's what Danmaku is.

I don't think summons have their speeds equalized

Where is that said?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Can Makima do anything against Titan summoning?

BFRing Titan itself to Hell, which should be much easier than BFRing Knight. Then Titan goes to show Darkness who is the real "fear of the dark" is and afterwards proceeds to solo Hell.

Don't bring up other matches for one, and I'm not saying everything of her aspect of her existence is protected by her contract, that'd be NLF. I'm saying her soul should be an aspect of her that's protected and I haven't seen a reason why it shouldn't.

Is there anybody in the verse who can do soul damage?

Just looks like a plain straight line of swords, wouldn't say that's danmaku. Is there another example of an array like a complex danmaku since that's what Danmaku is.

Straight line of swords is kinda difficult to dodge, when you are pinned down by class G TK. For better example, this one. Minions would be pushed away from the knight, and after initial attack would be assaulted by homing attacks.

 

[God_of_perversion]

Just looks like a plain straight line of swords, wouldn't say that's danmaku. Is there another example of an array like a complex danmaku since that's what Danmaku is.


Where is that said?

Oh wait i confused summons with equipments

 

[Comiphorous]

Just looks like a plain straight line of swords, wouldn't say that's danmaku. Is there another example of an array like a complex danmaku since that's what Danmaku is.

"To qualify for Danmaku, the user has to be shown to create tens or dozens of projectiles in a very short timeframe (i.e., at least 20 to 24 minimum). The projectiles don't need to be created simultaneously but they should all be shown in motion at roughly the same time."

don't know where you got your definition from.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Bones are half and half, calcium is inorganic but they also have collagen. I doubt DD has organs is all.

Well we've seen it bleed and all the other Primal Devils are organic so
Also making bones bleed is in no way comparable to making glass bleed lol

Its equal speed so idk why you're bringing up speed differences.

Makima ain't Kenjaku, she can't amp her summons to be on her level.
If she's going to summon someone, they're just going to be at their regular stats and speed, which kinda screws her over since that only leaves a few of her summons at her level.

Don't bring up other matches for one, and I'm not saying everything of her aspect of her existence is protected by her contract, that'd be NLF. I'm saying her soul should be an aspect of her that's protected and I haven't seen a reason why it shouldn't.

It's like, a pretty basic No Limits Fallacies really? Would you say Makima could just transfer say, conceptual erasure? Mind nuke? [INSERT ANOTHER EXAMPLE]?

It's not that much different from saying Ganondorf can't be killed by a 1-A cause he can only be killed by holy weapons, despite the fact 1-As aren't a thing in Zelda, ya know

 

[God_of_perversion]

Just looks like a plain straight line of swords, wouldn't say that's danmaku. Is there another example of an array like a complex danmaku since that's what Danmaku is.

All of his fight against the fun gang

 

[Arkenis]

Is there anybody in the verse who can do soul damage?

Besides the Ghost devil I don't think so and that's a maybe. But there's also the fact CSM ate 4 different alternatives at the end of life besides death that implies souls don't exist. Completely likely she just doesn't have a soul as a devil given their names are more important to their existence.

Straight line of swords is kinda difficult to dodge, when you are pinned down by class G TK. For better example, this one. Minions would be pushed away from the knight, and after initial attack would be assaulted by homing attacks.

He won't pin down Makima though which is the main one he needs to target. Also how long can he keep this up, he's got nothing in his stamina section.

don't know where you got your definition from.

Danmaku is originally about a complex array of projectiles lmao. But sure we can go by the plain definition of a lot of attacks, it doesn't seem like an issue to just dodge.

All of his fight against the fun gang

Can I see what the danmaku looked like?

 

[Breadbear83]

Bones aren't inorganic, so this isn't a comparable case.

Cosmo is Supersonic+ while Makima is a blitz over High Hypersonic+, the rest of Makima's summons don't fare much better.
Cosmo is never getting close enough to Papyrus to use it lol

It attacks the soul, would be NLF to say that also gets redirected.
That's why Makima even has a loss to Link rn

Saying that speed equalization means that mákima's summons are still slower than her and the knight isn't necessarily true, there's no clarification on at what speed cap were mákima and the knight capped at, you may guess the knight (who's profile says he's FTL) was just capped to Mákima's speed, but speed equalization also applies to any attack and reactions, mákima's reaction and combat speed aren't as fast as her telekinesis but speed equalization equalizes it

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Saying that speed equalization means that mákima's summons are still slower than her and the knight isn't necessarily true, there's no clarification on at what speed cap were mákima and the knight capped at, you may guess the knight (who's profile says he's FTL) was just capped to Mákima's speed, but speed equalization also applies to any attack and reactions, mákima's reaction and combat speed aren't as fast as her telekinesis but speed equalization equalizes it

It doesn't equalize it, no.

Every other speed the faster character has is reduced by the same multiplier. This includes the speed of any attacks, projectiles, reactions, perception, flight, etc.

Rudy is becoming Makima's speed combat speed while her summons are staying at the same speed.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Saying that speed equalization means that mákima's summons are still slower than her and the knight isn't necessarily true, there's no clarification on at what speed cap were mákima and the knight capped at, you may guess the knight (who's profile says he's FTL) was just capped to Mákima's speed, but speed equalization also applies to any attack and reactions, mákima's reaction and combat speed aren't as fast as her telekinesis but speed equalization equalizes it

Only things that speed equalization actually does is reducing speed of faster opponent. So Knight speed would be reduced to level of Makima. Minions who are massively inferior in speed to Makima, still remain massively inferior in speed to Makima and Knight.

Danmaku is originally about a complex array of projectiles lmao. But sure we can go by the plain definition of a lot of attacks, it doesn't seem like an issue to just dodge.

Knight danmaku is pretty complex, you can see it by yourself. It's not Touhou level, but it is difficult to dodge. And some patterns, like final attack would be impossible to dodge, since Makima and minions lack LS to fight off against TK.

He won't pin down Makima though which is the main one he needs to target. Also how long can he keep this up, he's got nothing in his stamina section.

Why wouldn't she pin down Makima? She can keep up TK for around minute continuously at least, which is more than enough for this fight.

Besides the Ghost devil I don't think so and that's a maybe. But there's also the fact CSM ate 4 different alternatives at the end of life besides death that implies souls don't exist. Completely likely she just doesn't have a soul as a devil given their names are more important to their existence.

It's reasonable conjuncture. But, you know that if it's not on the profiles, it as well might not exist at all. Besides even if we decided that she could transfer soul damage or lack Soul altogether, I would just put her resurrection/regen at high-mid. And Knight is more than capable to destroy her above that level

 

[Hiiilt]

Why wouldn't she pin down Makima? She can keep up TK for around minute continuously at least, which is more than enough for this fight.

if makima knows abt soul damage i doubt she is ever gonna get glose enough to be affected by the knight's tk

 

[Catbowtie]

I'm saying her soul should be an aspect of her that's protected and I haven't seen a reason why it shouldn't.

I’m ngl Arkenis you have to be trolling because ain’t no way someone like you makes the most textbook example of burden of proof fallacy

 

[Qurbonboev]

if makima knows abt soul damage i doubt she is ever gonna get glose enough to be affected by the knight's tk

Range of Knight magic(TK and swords) is hundreds of meters

 

[Hiiilt]

Range of Knight magic(TK and swords) is hundreds of meters

makima's range is hundreds of kilometers and since there is no set starting distance they will start 4km away from each other

 

[Arkenis]

Why wouldn't she pin down Makima? She can keep up TK for around minute continuously at least, which is more than enough for this fight.

Only hundreds of meters, Makima can control and see the battlefield across Japan for hundreds of km or just know what happening.

Knight danmaku is pretty complex, you can see it by yourself. It's not Touhou level, but it is difficult to dodge. And some patterns, like final attack would be impossible to dodge, since Makima and minions lack LS to fight off against TK.

Yeah I guess that works. How big are the projectiles though? Some of Makima's summons are decently acrobatic, I can see them evading some of these.

It's reasonable conjuncture. But, you know that if it's not on the profiles, it as well might not exist at all. Besides even if we decided that she could transfer soul damage or lack Soul altogether, I would just put her resurrection/regen at high-mid. And Knight is more than capable to destroy her above that level

Oh what attack does he have to that do?

I’m ngl Arkenis you have to be trolling because ain’t no way someone like you makes the most textbook example of burden of proof fallacy

An ability which makes attacks against her be redirected to other people in harmful ways is enough for me to assume it applies to her standard physiology, if we are to assume she has a soul and a mind. You guys are making the case, or at least they are, it shouldn't. The burden would be on them, not me.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

An ability which makes attacks against her be redirected to other people in harmful ways is enough for me to assume it applies to her standard physiology, if we are to assume she has a soul and a mind. You guys are making the case, or at least they are, it shouldn't. The burden would be on them, not me.

Would you say it could redirect attacks that would otherwise atomize her?

 

[Catbowtie]

An ability which makes attacks against her be redirected to other people in harmful ways is enough for me to assume it applies to her standard physiology, if we are to assume she has a soul and a mind. You guys are making the case, or at least they are, it shouldn't. The burden would be on them, not me.

Okay now prove “attacks” encompasses the Soul through statements and not conjecture and Makima can redirect Soul attacks.

 

[God_of_perversion]

Arkenis,metaphysical aspects are also aspects of a person,do you think Makima can redirect cm or info2 destroying attacks? If not it proves your logic is flawed

 

[Qurbonboev]

makima's range is hundreds of kilometers and since there is no set starting distance they will start 4km away from each other

Only hundreds of meters, Makima can control and see the battlefield across Japan for hundreds of km or just know what happening.

I forgot about putting distance in OP. Does distance of let's say 100 meters sounds fair for Makima supporters? Otherwise, if I place them too far, Knight wouldn't be able to reach Makima at all(and it would be a stomp), and if I place them too close, Knight gonna oneshot with melee range attack in first frame.

Oh what attack does he

Knight does have swords, that are much bigger and longer than humans. And they are several tiers higher in AP than Makima dura. So getting hit by one of them would turn her into paste

 

[Arkenis]

Would you say it could redirect attacks that would otherwise atomize her?

Well yeah, I don't think the regen cap is very reasonable on her page.

Okay now prove “attacks” encompasses the Soul through statements and not conjecture and Makima can redirect Soul attacks.

Standard physiology would make this unneeded.

Arkenis,metaphysical aspects are also aspects of a person,do you think Makima can redirect cm or info2 destroying attacks? If not it proves your logic is flawed

That would need to be shown in verse first, then yes I'd agree.

 

[Arkenis]

I forgot about putting distance in OP. Does distance of let's say 100 meters sounds fair for Makima supporters? Otherwise, if I place them too far, Knight wouldn't be able to reach Makima at all(and it would be a stomp), and if I place them too close, Knight gonna oneshot with melee range attack in first frame.

Knight's hax let him ignore distance and could attack her soul, since people think she can't bypass the soul stuff I'd say that's rather unfair.

 

[Catbowtie]

Standard physiology would make this unneeded.

Arkenis hold my hand and point me to where you got that from by copy pasting the specific ability here.