Helluva Fast Downgrades (Hellaverse Tier 5 Removal)

[StoneKillerz12]

I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. Cloud expansions don't violate the Kinetic Energy rules because cloud expansions don't hit anything,

This would be true if the "cloud expansion" was all that the feat entailed, and was caused via nothing except like, telekinesis, for example. The problem here is that the cloud split here is specifically induced by the potency of another blast, which due to the law of conservation of momentum would entail that the blast from the MoL is hitting with at least comparable kinetic energy for it to have split those clouds with the force it did. This is where the inconsistency comes in. Shortly after it shatters the barrier (supposedly "wasting most of its energy"), it splits yet another set of clouds (a presumably Tier 5 feat, too), yet the same blast behind where the clouds are split, hitting with the same supposed KE, does not cause any of the same damage to heaven before it splits those clouds. This is the violation; the cloud split was induced by a blast hitting with the same potency (otherwise we wouldn't scale anyone to it), yet the potency is determined by comparing it to KE; that KE being inconsistent with the damage caused, again, expressly against KE guidelines.

and the most Lilith's Might Beam does is graze the Gates of Heaven.

Thank you for (kind of) proving my point. It doesn't only do that though, it does vaguely destroy a couple of buildings, but overall most of Heaven isn't damaged, again, by a blast that you are suggesting produces KE of a 5-B potency.

Since the expansions themselves don't cause any DC because they don't directly affect Heaven, you can't say they violate the Kinetic Energy rules because they didn't even have a DC.

Except the blast that hits with the same kinetic energy-based potency does exactly all of that.

What you're doing is trying to appropriate the beam's DC in the expansions to negate them, which is inefficient because it's made explicit in the episode that Vox only wanted to tear down the Gates of Heaven as a symbol of his power, both to gain support among the sinners and to instill fear in Heaven. This explains how, upon colliding with the Seraphin Shield, the beam generates a much stronger tremor in Heaven than colliding with the Gates of Heaven itself; it didn't hit Heaven itself, it only grazed it, shattering the gate.

...while simultaneously supposedly producing 5-B kinetic energy. That's my point. The destruction caused is inconsistent with the proposed KE.

Even if he were to strike the planet with the intention of destroying it, it would still be a flawed argument, because Heaven is the first place of creation, clearly different from a regular planet, and its durability cannot be guaranteed.

Um, then why would he be utilizing a power source significantly weaker than the durability needed to damage anythiing? You are basically implying buildings in Heaven have 5-B durability for no other reason other than it being "the first place of creation", which is not proof of anything. Besides, this argument doesn't even work anyway because there were parts of Heaven that were destroyed, like you yourself admit with the gate, which I imagine wouldn't be much weaker in durability than anything else in Heaven, as well as, again, a couple of buildings behind the gate as well. The point is that most of Heaven largely remained in-tact. Suggesting that those buildings simply have 5-B durability is both shifting the goalpost and relies on circular reasoning.

Regarding the clouds, the density of cumulus clouds used is actually only that of the water in the cumulus clouds, ignoring the air, which incidentally greatly nerfs the calculation.

The cloud calculator which this wiki endorses has the mass of the clouds come out to weighing literally nothing with the altitude being input.

And no, this is not Earth's atmosphere; it's the atmosphere of both heaven and hell, which covers both and is gigantically larger than Earth's, so the difference in air density cannot be argued.

Um, you do realize the entire basis for this feat being Tier 5 at all is because we are assuming that Heaven is a planet comparable to Earth, right?

What proves the point is not only the various images of clouds and atmosphere encompassing far beyond the sky, but also the fact that the gates of heaven, upon falling into hell, were undergoing ablation throughout their trajectory, catching fire from friction with the atmosphere. In other words, not only is this not a demerit, but the calculation is nerfed.

I'm not really sure what this means. "The calculation is nerfed" is literally what I'm arguing.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

As far as I understand, the current calc doesn't uses air density, just water content, which wouldn't change no matter how high up it goes.

Not what the wiki endorsed cloud calculator says.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Now that I think about it, you could actually argue that if the cloud mass being effectively zero is true, then the KE is bunk and therefore there is no longer any contradiction, meaning you could potentially just use the High 6-A shockwave instead. This wouldn't entirely be inconsistent with the visual of Heaven shaking with the blast, either.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Again, strawman. I'm not claiming any of this, and even if I did, repeating it sarcastically isn't an argument.


Uh, it literally isn't, which tells me you didn't actually read any of them yet. And you're the one endlessly repeating yourself with the whole "AP =/= DC" claim even after I'm explaining to you how it doesn't work here due to KE guidelines. Every time I "repeat myself", not only do I specifically specify that I am doing that (like when I say stuff like "for the thousandth time"), I only do it because you repeat arguments which boil back down to the same claim of "AP =/= DC".

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Now that I think about it, you could actually argue that if the cloud mass being effectively zero is true, then the KE is bunk and therefore there is no longer any contradiction, meaning you could potentially just use the High 6-A shockwave instead. This wouldn't entirely be inconsistent with the visual of Heaven shaking with the blast, either.

The High 6-A method is bunk in general, so it just can't be used outright.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

The cloud calculator which this wiki endorses has the mass of the clouds come out to weighing literally nothing with the altitude being input.

Our cloud calculator is just for the density of air. Back on the day, cloud feats were calculated by the density of air + the density of water content within them. However, water content is negible, so air carried most of the bulk. (For reference, with cumulus the density was 1.003 kg/m3, with 1 kg being air and 0.003 being water). The cloud calculator therefore was made to determine the density of air at high altitudes, not water contents. That depends on the type of cloud, which the calculator doesn't factors.

The mass of water, unlike air, doesn't changes with altitude.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Maybe actually prove that I'm a liar rather than calling me that with shitty memes. This classifies as libel, you know.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Maybe actually prove that I'm a liar rather than calling me that with sh*tty memes.

Sure, let me get to the PC.

This classifies as libel, you know.

Technically falsely telling me I committed libel is libel itself.

Also you are totally unchill aren’t you

 

[StoneKillerz12]

The High 6-A method is bunk in general, so it just can't be used outright.

Ah, so the High 6-C proposal still stands.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Our cloud calculator is just for the density of air. Back on the day, cloud feats were calculated by the density of air + the density of water content within them. However, water content is negible, so air carried most of the bulk. (For reference, with cumulus the density was 1.003 kg/m3, with 1 kg being air and 0.003 being water). The cloud calculator therefore was made to determine the density of air at high altitudes, not water contents. That depends on the type of cloud, which the calculator doesn't factors.

Ah, I was not aware of this. Thank you for pointing this out.

The mass of water, unlike air, doesn't changes with altitude.

So the initial proposal still stands, meaning there is still a KE contradiction.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Technically falsely telling me I committed libel is libel itself.

I'm not "falsely" accusing you of it, you called me a liar without basis, that is objectively libel.

Also you are totally unchill aren’t you

You've been the one being nothing except condescending since your very first reply to this thread, are jumping on other people's responses to continue sarcastically mocking me, are responding with memes of Gojo putting a gun to his head (arguably distasteful btw, but I guess it makes sense given the series you worship regularly mocks SA victims), said a claim I made is as stupid as "2 + 2 = 5", shall I go on? This isn't the first time you've been this way to others, either, myself included, like the time you for no reason jumped on a calculation page I made calling it "Stupid wank" or whatever. But I called your meme a naughty word, the horror! You can dish it out but you can't take it, I guess.

 

[StoneKillerz12]

Anyway, I'm going to be gone for the rest of the day, so I won't be responding to anything here until tomorrow afternoon.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Also you are totally unchill aren’t you

Don't assume people are willing to joke around if you don't know 'em. Not a warning or anything, but general advise. Some people just really don't play like that with people they don't know nor interact frequently.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You've been the one

I’m just saying that this was meant to be unserious lol, but I shall not repeat that anymore, my apologies.

are responding with memes of Gojo putting a gun to his head

Because I find arguments stupid. Finding arguments stupid has nothing to do with your personality

(arguably distasteful btw, but I guess it makes sense given the series you worship regularly mocks SA victims)

What?
If you’re talking about Hazbin, my relationship with that series is furthest from worship LOL. I literally hated it until Season 2 came out. There’s a reason I’ve been in opp m8. And what SA has to do with that.

This isn't the first time you've been this way to others, either, myself included, like the time you for no reason jumped on a calculation page I made calling it "Stupid wank" or whatever.

I did give my reasoning to why the calc is wrong though, also didn’t call it that.

Don't assume people are willing to joke around if you don't know 'em. Not a warning or anything, but general advise. Some people just really don't play like that with people they don't know nor interact frequently.

Yeah, I figured it out right now and regret trying to joke around in this context. Once again, my bad. And thank you for advice.

 

[ShionAH]

Let me put Adam's durability at a perspective if we want to play this game. Going by the King Pin example. AFTER Peter gets his mask off is where Lucifer thing would compare to alr?

6 hits I counted from a Peter who doesn't want to kill him I read the dang story. He is already down on the ground, barely gets the energy to tackle Peter but fails and gets hit again. 7th hit. This is where he is COMPLETELY helpless, he can't even get up from the ground. This is when he is fully over just in the 7th hit.

Adam on the other hand takes a surprise hit, a DOUBLE KICK to the spin and takes NO DAMAGE from this, gets backhanded by True Form Charlie and Lucifer. Then a TRANSFORMED (remember this means Lucifer is stronger than normal) Lucifer COATING HIS PUNCHES WITH MAGIC (remember this means Lucifer hits harder than normal) lands 10 hits. And what does Adam have? A NOSE BLEED, BLACK EYE AND A BRUISE. He gets back up IN LESS THAN 10 SECONDS. What Adam did to a DOUBLE amped Lucifer is TWICE the amount of hits King Pin took, was in a MUCH better condition and could get back up like nothing even happened.

6 hits is where King Pin is heavily injured and 7th is where he is just gone. Remember Peter is literally SLAPPING this man afterwards its not even punches. Meanwhile Adam takes 14 whole hits against a TRANSFORMED Lucifer AMPING himself with magic and is far better condition AND gets back up.

We know the transformations happen during a fit of extreme rage and it allowed. Vox went from being barely able to keep up with ALASTORS MINIONS to basically stat stomping Alastor after transforming, literally ragdolling him. Sera went from being only able to create a small orb to a dimensional Heaven barrier just by BARELY transforming into her PARTIAL FORM.

NONE of us are saying Adam directly scales to Lucifer at all, he downscales from Lucifer. Which is exactly what was shown in screen especially with him dodging EVERY holy light INCLUDING the ones that threatened her daughter.

I have some arguments that could even make Adam's AP directly scale to Lucifer's durability but I'll hold it off. Since I don't think its needed unless some staff somehow actually agrees with this bunk logic.

Now tell me what descriptions fits the Adam eating 14 punches with only minimal injuries from a double amped Lucifer?

Some characters are capable of withstanding damage to the point where an attack only leaves little to no damage on their bodies. In other instances, some characters are less wounded from attacks that seriously harmed others. Sometimes characters are only capable of wounding others because of using sharp attacks which are able to leave more noticeable wounds than blunt attacks.,

Many characters have been shown to survive attacks far above their durability, usually surviving with large injuries that others on their scale usually wouldn't survive. This is because of endurance, as they can endure a certain amount of pain regardless if the attack has burned them or sliced off limbs. This is not a durability factor, as this is a quality that is commonly attributed to willpower.

I will also give examples!!

Our wiki accepts feats such as THIS as "surviving" that wouldn't scale to durability.



Yes. A WHOLE ARM IS GONE. BUT OFC!!! Adam's bruise in the cheek is comparable to losing your arm so he doesn't even downscale? RIGHT GUYS?? COME ON!!

You know whats even FUNNIER? The DOUBLE Horse kick from Lucifer (which is 4x more force than anything a Horse can do so likely applies here) would count as Adam NO SELLING!!

Magic Amped Demon Lucifer > Demon Lucifer > Partial Demon Lucifer > Base Lucifer would be the scaling chain.

Adam took a dozen of hits from the first Lucifer and got back up in under ten seconds. Yet he wouldn't downscale at all? What are we doing?

"BUT SHION? Adam can't do anything to Lucifer!!"

Overpowers Octopus Lucifer.

Lucifer dodges his beam despite it targeting the hotel and Charlie... bum father

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Curious what a calc of this feat would come out to using the close-up laser size

 

[Kachon123]

9 pages... could someone summarize the arguments

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

9 pages... could someone summarize the arguments

OP says the Tier 5 feat (The beam parting the clouds over Heaven) goes against KE rules since it did nothing to the planet Heaven and its self-destruct (which is stronger than its regular beam) was only going to destroy half of Pentagram City, so everyone should go down to Tier 6 for the Pentagram City thing.

Counter args against the OP have been 1) It doesn't contradict KE rules cause the beam lost energy after breaking the barrier 2) Heaven is made of Angelic Steel and that's why it was undamaged 3) Carmilla doesn't know what she's talking about when she said MoL was only going to destroy half of Pentagram City

 

[Kachon123]

OP says the Tier 5 feat (The beam parting the clouds over Heaven) goes against KE rules since it did nothing to the planet Heaven and its self-destruct (which is stronger than its regular beam) was only going to destroy half of Pentagram City, so everyone should go down to Tier 6 for the Pentagram City thing.

Counter args against the OP have been 1) It doesn't contradict KE rules cause the beam lost energy after breaking the barrier 2) Heaven is made of Angelic Steel and that's why it was undamaged 3) Carmilla doesn't know what she's talking about when she said MoL was only going to destroy half of Pentagram City

Have any staff members weighed in?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Have any staff members weighed in?

Nope

 

[Kachon123]

Nope

Thanks for the tl;dr lol

Hm, it would be helpful to know how those on the OP’s side address the argument that the beam lost energy after destroying the barrier, and how they respond to Heaven constitution as reasons why KE rules shouldn’t be used to dismiss the feat. Those seem valid to me at least.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Have any staff members weighed in?

It’s a Hazbin CRT i.e. your answer should always be no

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Hm, it would be helpful to know how those on the OP’s side address the argument that the beam lost energy after destroying the barrier, and how they respond to Heaven constitution as reasons why KE rules shouldn’t be used to dismiss the feat. Those seem valid to me at least.

This for the lost energy point.

It "wasting most of its energy" doesn't even matter because it still causes another supposedly Tier 5 cloud split after it "wastes most of its energy" and literally right as the same level of power with that "wasted energy" displays a level of destruction inconsistent with what the KE predicts, again, a violation of KE guidelines.

And I think this is the response to the other one.

Um, then why would he be utilizing a power source significantly weaker than the durability needed to damage anything? You are basically implying buildings in Heaven have 5-B durability for no other reason other than it being "the first place of creation", which is not proof of anything. Besides, this argument doesn't even work anyway because there were parts of Heaven that were destroyed, like you yourself admit with the gate, which I imagine wouldn't be much weaker in durability than anything else in Heaven, as well as a couple of buildings behind the gate as well. The point is that most of Heaven largely remained in-tact. Suggesting that those buildings simply have 5-B durability is both shifting the goalpost and relies on circular reasoning.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

If I could throw my hat in the ring, we know Pentious spent the majority of "Like You" tearing off random pieces of Heaven’s buildings and structures, so I think it's safe to say that their regular infrastructure isn't made of Angelic Steel. At the same time, it also shows us Pentious being completely unable to drill into the ground with his machine, so yeah

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

OP says the Tier 5 feat (The beam parting the clouds over Heaven) goes against KE rules since it did nothing to the planet Heaven and its self-destruct (which is stronger than its regular beam) was only going to destroy half of Pentagram City, so everyone should go down to Tier 6 for the Pentagram City thing.

Counter args against the OP have been 1) It doesn't contradict KE rules cause the beam lost energy after breaking the barrier 2) Heaven is made of Angelic Steel and that's why it was undamaged 3) Carmilla doesn't know what she's talking about when she said MoL was only going to destroy half of Pentagram City

Were the KE rules analyzed properly?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Were the KE rules analyzed properly?

Ig?

There is a destruction/AP calculation contradicting a kinetic energy calculation. The destruction/AP calculation would take priority over the kinetic energy calculation in this case as the AP calculation would be a better proof in regards to how much damage he/she is capable of in an attack.

• For example, if a character launches a 200kg metal ball against a common wall at Mach 300, but the wall remains largely undamaged, the energy required to cause the minor damage on the wall would take priority over the kinetic energy derived from speed in this case.
• Keep in mind that this destruction should be compared to the energy lost by the object during the event. A ball travelling at relativistic speeds creating a hole its size, and continuing to move at nearly the same speed afterwards, would not be considered a contradiction. While a similar feat, with the ball falling to the ground a few meters afterwards, would be cause for concern.

Apparently other similar feats in other verses have been rejected for the same reasons as here, and I know Chariot and Rusty had an argument around this too.

But yeah that's why Heaven being a really durable planet is the main point against OP rn

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I still don’t see why blast wasting most of its energy onto shield & KE feat is a bad argument.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I still don’t see why blast wasting most of its energy onto shield & KE feat is a bad argument.

It replicated the same Tier 5 cloud split after breaking the shield.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Yeah, that’s why I said:

I still don’t see why blast wasting most of its energy onto shield & KE feat is a bad argument.

Those shatters are meant to be gate remnants as a piece of gate is what falls, from my understanding.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It did the second KE cloud split after passing through Heaven, so while it was passing through Heaven, it was still carrying 5-B energy ya know

Those shatters are meant to be gate remnants as a piece of gate is what falls, from my understanding.

Nah the gate pieces are the barely visible shooting stars that appear a few seconds after the beam broke the barrier.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

They're not fully scaling to it, they're either 1/14th or 1/1876th its power.

Also should probably take it one step at a time, ya know, this thread isn't supposed to have anything to do with the scaling.

nah splitting the power is also no viable considering how it would require all the overlords to be on the same level of power which they are not and shared feats do not scale linearly so they should not scale to it.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

nag splitting the power is also no viable considering how it would require all the overlords to be on the same level of power which they are not and shared feats do not scale linearly so they should not scale to it.

That's what we do with basically every shared feat on the wiki, even if there's a power gap between the ones who did it.
The no-name Overlords also clearly contributed a hefty amount considering the shield went from 20% complete to 70% when they joined in.

Also remember this thread is about the MoL feat itself, not its scaling, so best to save that for another thread. This one’s already long enough lol

 

[Greatsage13th]

nag splitting the power is also no viable considering how it would require all the overlords to be on the same level of power which they are not and shared feats do not scale linearly so they should not scale to it.

We've been treating individuals who made a combined effort to accomplish a certain feat as having a comparable level of power to one another for a long time now. So, they'll still scale, with some being better than others even if the feat is split between all of them.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

It did the second KE cloud split after passing through Heaven, so while it was passing through Heaven, it was still carrying 5-B energy ya know

I’m pretty sure cloud split was before passing through it.

Nah the gate pieces are the barely visible shooting stars that appear a few seconds after the beam broke the barrier.

Ah, well, fair enough. Misremembered here.

But it’s still stupid that it seems to penetrate through planet on first shot only to show that the blast is parallel to the surface and never actually touched the planet. So I still can and will argue that it’s just animators being lowkey stupid to not make sense of the scene.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

I’m pretty sure cloud split was before passing through it.

Ah, well, fair enough. Misremembered here.

But it’s still stupid that it seems to penetrate through planet on first shot only to show that the blast is parallel to the surface and never actually touched the planet. So I still can and will argue that it’s just animators being lowkey stupid to not make sense of the scene.

So I still can and will argue that it’s just animators being lowkey stupid to not make sense of the scene.

You could say that about like literally anything though right? Idk, if a feat relies on something being a certain size, and that thing changes sizes to this extent due to continuity mess-ups... just feels like a bad feat in general, especially if we're using it to upscale characters 2 whole number tiers. I mean is there any reason to take one end over another in this instance?

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

You could say that about like literally anything though right?

Eh, not really? Unless I misunderstand you.

Idk, if a feat relies on something being a certain size, and that thing changes sizes to this extent due to continuity mess-ups... just feels like a bad feat in general, especially if we're using it to upscale characters 2 whole number tiers. I mean is there any reason to take one end over another in this instance?

I mean, even if you dismiss both KE feat and building destruction as weird animation shenanigans, the essence of the event is that it broke a giant shield covering an entire planet. We give at least 3-C for a shield that covers entire galaxy without any calcs. Shield being around tier 5 makes sense, and for the feat that destroys it to be tier 5 makes only sense to me.

 

[Monkey_Dunno]

We give at least 3-C for a shield that covers entire galaxy without any calcs. Shield being around tier 5 makes sense, and for the feat that destroys it to be tier 5 makes only sense to me.

I‘m sure the logic behind Phineas and Ferb rating comes from having a Galaxy sized object moving at FTL speeds, which renders any calc obsolete, so per wiki standards it defaults to its size.

Likely the reason they don’t have Galaxy level durability with equipment despite getting their rating out of a Galaxy-sized forcefield.

 

[The_Renegade_Slugger]

Eh, not really? Unless I misunderstand you.

I mean, even if you dismiss both KE feat and building destruction as weird animation shenanigans, the essence of the event is that it broke a giant shield covering an entire planet. We give at least 3-C for a shield that covers entire galaxy without any calcs. Shield being around tier 5 makes sense, and for the feat that destroys it to be tier 5 makes only sense to me.

Yeah, what Monkey said

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I‘m sure the logic behind Phineas and Ferb rating comes from having a Galaxy sized object moving at FTL speeds, which renders any calc obsolete, so per wiki standards it defaults to its size.

Fair, but I think a shield much larger than a huge planet is way closer to Planetary than Building level (which is what would logically follow since OP suggests that the energy is barely enough to destroy several buildings).

Likely the reason they don’t have Galaxy level durability with equipment despite getting their rating out of a Galaxy-sized forcefield.

It used to be there but then was removed without any reason provided. I don't think there is any good reason for not granting durability, as the shield would have needed to experience all of its KE the moment it stopped.

 

[OiEuSouDuvi]

The thread stalled (after 9 pages, of course).