The Dark Tower: Massive Downgrade (from High 1-A to 2-A & 2-C)

[Jockey-1337]

The Dark Tower: Anti-feats, limits, weaknesses. A collection of materials and sources.

[GENERAL POST]

Hello, it seems to me the Dark Tower / Stephen King's Universe is one of the most overestimated fictional universes nowadays in many Powerscaling/VS-communities, so I created this thread to demonstrate that. I want to debunk a lot of stuff about this overestimated universe.
It is not a CRT yet; it is a collection of arguments for future CRTs
Somebody moved my thread from General Discussions to Content Revisions, so it is a CRT now.

1. The Prim and Todash Space. (link)

2. Gan/God/The Other One. (link)

3. Bessa, Beams, and Guardians. (link)

4. The Tower, its scale, and the dangers of the Tower's collapse. (link)

5. The Crimson King and other Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim. (link)

6. The Old Ones/The Great Old Ones/The Imperium/North Central Positronics. (link)

7. Mythbusting: (link)
7.1. Myth: Todash Space > The Prim.
7.2. Myth: Reality > Fiction.
7.3. Myth: Higher dimensions.
7.4. Myth: "Level 4 multiversal" scale / "All possible" worlds are Modal Realism.
7.5. Myth: Guardians > Ka and the Tower.

8. Conclusion. (link)

VOTES:

Agree:
1) TomTaylorTheMessiah (here);
2) Saqphire (here);
3) Mr._East_Statement (here);
4) God_of_perversion (here);
5) Child_of_destiny (here);

Disagree:
1) Oxonom2962 (here);
2) Re5yh (here);
3) Maniaunavailable (here);
4) wozirut (here);
5) Para_Pala_Zula (here);
6) Hecky2222 (here);
7) Zanesucksatlife (here);
8) Gewsbumpz_dude (here);

 

[Jockey-1337]

1. The Prim and Todash Space.

The Prim is the oldest and most fundamental material in Stephen King's Universe, but even it can be changed by a "lesser" force (Gan):

"Before the dawn of time and the formation of the multiverse, there was nothing but the magical Prim, that primordial soup of creation that stretched across all existence like a chaotic ocean. This was the case until Gan, the Spirit of the Dark Tower, emerged from the formless Prim and gave birth to the entire multiverse. As Gan slowly expanded, the Prim receded into nothingness. Soon all that remained of the Prim were the assorted demons stranded on Gan's earth who once called the Prim their home."
- Source: End-World Almanac 01 (2008)

"In the beginning there was only the Prim, the magical soup of creation. From the Prim arose Gan, the spirit of the Dark Tower, who spun the physical universe from his navel. When the magical tide of the Prim had receded from the earth, the Tower and the Beams remained, forming the framework of the time/space continuum. However, the receding Prim also left behind it a flotsam and jetsam of demons and elemental spirits."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Guide to Gilead (2009) (Digital)

"According to one legend, Eld actually predated the Great Old Ones and was the first king rule after the primordial Prim receded at the formation of the multiverse."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

"In the beginning, there was nothing but the Prim, the primordial force of chaotic magic which ate away at the nothingness in the universe. Gan, the spirit of the Dark Tower, was the first to erupt from the Prim - and from the ever-growing Gan emerged Mid-World, which eventually broke apart into many parallel worlds spinning around the axle of Gan. As the demon-infested Prim began to recede, many lesser demons became stranded on the shores of the parallel worlds. One of these demons was known as Maerlyn."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

"At the beginning of our era there were no worlds and no universes, only the seething, raw magic of the Prim. This phosphorescent soup of creation grew like a great, hungry, opalescent ameba. It ate the nothingness, and in the silence it murmured and whispered. First to erupt from the depths of the Prim was Gan, spirit of the Dark Tower. Tall and grey-black, he pushed into the sky, the windows that spiraled round his barrel flashing with an electric-blue light. From the center of Gan's forehead stared a great oriel window of twelve colors: crimson, orange, yellow, pink, dark blue, dark green, indigo, lime, azure, violet, brown and pearl grey. Though the window was beautiful, the circular pane at its center glowed black as the emptiness of todash space. As Gan stretched himself higher and higher, the waters of the Prim poured out of his navel. From its raw magic he spun Mid-World. As the Tower lengthened, so Mid-World divided into the multiple, parallel worlds. Gan set those sequin-like worlds spinning around the axle of his body and their movement created time. As time settled on its axis, the sun and moon arose from the Prim and built their own roads across the sky. Soon they were joined by Old Star and his wife, South Star. But while the gods took their places above the stage of the earth, other more terrible creatures bred in the deeper waters of the Prim. The most awful of the Prim's new children were the monstrous Great Ones. Some of these horrors had the bodies of squids, some of giant centipedes, still others of great, double-fanged spiders. All had clawed pincers and gaping mouths filled with shark teeth, and all of them were hungry. But as these Great Ones cozened, diddled, and increased, the Prim..."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 02 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

"...began to recede. Some of these monsters died, but others slithered into the void places between worlds and waited."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 02 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

"In the beginning there was only the Prim, that primordial soup of creation. Out of the Prim arose Gan, animating spirit of the Dark Tower. From the magical waters dripping out of his navel, Gan spun the physical universe. But sensing that one world was not large enough to contain all possible manifestations of life and experience, he divided the universe into multiple, parallel realities, and set six magnetic Beams in place to maintain the alignment of time, space, size, and dimension in all of them. Like a gray-black jewel, Gan sat at the center of the worldweb, singing the rocks and mountains and trees into existence, singing the song of the White."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 04 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

The Prim was not hostile to Earth, even our planet could exist in these "magical" conditions:

"In those long ago days when the waters of the Prim covered the earth, we fed well."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 02 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)

"...mixed with that of the ancient race that ruled earth before the waters of the Prim subsided."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

The Prim has very limited feats over physical stuff:

"On the edges of the borderlands, a new terrain arose from the waters of the Prim. The people called it Thunderclap, and it was said that all nightmares ever dreamt of took shape there. Some even whispered that the hideous Great Ones had built themselves a fortress beyond that terrifying terrain, and from there they hoped to launch an attack upon Gan himself."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 01 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

Have a look at this map, by the way, the fortress (the Crimson King's Castle) already exists.
Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

It is not difficult to enter the Prim/Todash Space:
Scans: #1, #2.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 02 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)

"The equipment a Manni elder uses to travel through time and space appears simple enough. All he requires is a circular magnet with a hole in the center and a plumb bob, carved from yellow ghost wood, suspended from a fine-linked silver chain. The bob, which is shaped like a child's top, inevitably has a name since it is considered the Manni's living companion, not an inanimate object of wood. Just as the Manni lives in a kra, the bob is housed in a rectangular box known as a coff. The largest bobs —the ones used by Manni leaders or dinhs —are housed in three-foot-long coffs decorated with stars and moons. Beneath these coffs are metal sleeves containing wooden rods which are used for bearing the coffs in processionals, much like litters are used to transport people of rank. To prepare for travel, a Manni man or woman fasts for several days, during which time he will use his magnet to determine a location where the electro-"
- Source: The Dark Tower - Treachery 04 (of 06) (2009) (Digital)

"- magnetic energies of the earth are suitable for creating a doorway. Once the location is found, the Manni will pray for kaven, or the persistence of magic, and then he will set his plumb-bob swinging. As the bob swings, it grows heavier, and soon both chain and bob become dim. Next the Manni himself —who is continually uttering prayers —will fade in and out of existence in a series of jerky pulses, until all that remains of him in Mid-World is an ectoplasmic shadow."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Treachery 04 (of 06) (2009) (Digital)

"Each Manni male spent years learning how to meditate and how to use the plumb-bobs and magnets which guided him through the todash-taken, or the holes in reality. But as the Manni had attested on many occasions, their form of travel also had its risks, not least of which was that a traveler could never guarantee that the version of Earth he returned to was exactly the same as the one he had left."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 01 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

Even 21st-century humans found a way to enter it:

- Source: The Mist Movie (2007)

...and it is possible to fight with these monsters on their territory even without any protective suit and be more or less ok:
Scans: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 02 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)

Dams > the Prim:

"Like the land, human society began to heal and the fabric of culture was rewoven. Warring clans made treaties and united into baronies. Leaders from the many baronies met to palaver and in so doing, formed an Affiliation. Together, the men of the Affiliation destroyed the lawless harriers who pillaged and ransomed; they hunted down the man-eating mutants hidden deep within the earth; they even built heavy dams to hold back the waters of the Prim."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 02 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

 

[Jockey-1337]

2. Gan/God/The Other One.

He has equals (more or less):
a) Bessa (link)

b) The Outer Dark/"True form" of the Crimson King:

"But Gan was not the only demiurge to arise from that primordial magical soup. And just as night inevitably follows day, and as the ki'box must sit below the heart and the head, so that which came after the bright light of Gan dragged like a heavy shadow. What bubbled up from the depths of the Prim with a great burping stench of decay was the force of the Outer Dark, the ki'box of eternity. And out of that ki'box stepped a being that looked like the creatures that would later be called human, but human it was not. The firstborn of the Outer Dark was an agent of magic, and it called itself Maerlyn."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 04 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

Also, the Outer Dark's Random force can oppose fate (Ka):

"Ka is drawing you to the Devar-toi, but a very powerful anti-ka, set in motion by the one you call the Crimson King, is working against you and your tet in a thousand ways."
- Source: The Dark Tower

c) Plus, other Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim:
Gan has been described as an "enemy" by other Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim:

"But then came our enemy, to disturb our feed.
Gan hated the rich, unformed waters of the Prim. But most of all, he was jealous of our feeding.
He wanted to create a new world with new creatures.
He wanted to usurp our power and become Lord of All."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 02 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)

His body (the Tower) can be damaged: have a look at the post about the Tower (link).

Gan's nature is not different from the nature of all other magical beings.

"Transforming into a tornado, the-night draft lifted the glass dust and attacked the Tower with a whirlwind of microscopic razors. This vortex of shards swirled about Gan like a bitter storm, entering his windows of electric blue light, pitting and scarring his skin of hardened stone, and killing the greenery at his base until there was nothing left but desert. Though his injuries were terrible, Gan would eventually heal. After all, every magical being has the ability to endlessly regenerate. But what happened to the multiple worlds was much worse."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 04 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

Gan is simply the first, the biggest, and the strongest of them:

"First to erupt from the depths of the Prim was Gan, spirit of the Dark Tower."
"The most awful of the Prim's new children were the monstrous Great Ones. Some of these horrors had the bodies of squids, some of giant centipedes, still others of great, double-fanged spiders."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 02 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

It is possible to fool Gan; it seems Gan cannot predict the future (otherwise he would summon the Guardians sooner, before Maerlyn's attack). It also shows that Gan's creation does not contain the mirror's "fake" worlds, so the cosmology of Dark Tower doesn't contain truly "all possible worlds" (more about "all possible worlds" here (link)):

"In the mirror's polished silver surface, good appeared ugly while evil seemed handsome. Not only did the mirror make all reflections of the White appear hideous and stupid, but it also made them seem ridiculous. In fact, the stronger the power of the White that it faced, the funnier the mirror found it and the louder it laughed. Eager to test the effectiveness of his new creation, Maerlyn called together all the evil imps coughed up by the Outer Dark. Telling these lesser demons of the Prim that he had made them a gift, Maerlyn unveiled his mirror. Oohing and ahhing in surprised delight, the ugly succubi, housies, and illsicks pirouetted before the glass, admiring their own false beauty. In fact, they were so fooled by Maerlyn's magic that they proclaimed the wizard to be king of creation and swore to obey him for eternity. Grinning widely, Maerlyn made his first kingly command. He ordered the imps to lift up his mirror and to carry it to the Dark Tower. It was time for Gan to see himself for the fool he truly was."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 04 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

It seems Gan is unable to fix the "infected" worlds:
"Though not even Maerlyn had expected it, every particle of his laughing mirror contained the concentrated evil of the whole. Hence anything they penetrated became infected by the mirror's vision. Though Gan had created his world as a place of good, he had not protected it against wickedness. So like a disease, wickedness spread. The shards of Maerlyn's laughing mirror blew into every possible future of every new world until no land was left uninfected. And of all the creatures tainted by Maerlyn's magic, none suffered so greatly as human beings. In some futures, the sharp microscopic particles flew into people's eyes, perverting their vision so greatly that they could only perceive the corrupt, the cruel, and the hateful as beautiful. But worse yet were the fates of those men and women whose hearts were pierced, since never again could they feel the emotions of love and joy, compassion or regret."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 04 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

"After Maerlyn's attack, Gan selected his twelve most loyal servants — Bear and Turtle, Dog and Horse, Eagle and Lion, Elephant and Wolf, Fish and Rat, Hare and Bat—to guard the termination points of the magnetic beams which were simultaneously the major doorways into and out of the multiple worlds. But not even the Guardians could undo what had been done. In the end, Maerlyn got his wish. The evil of the Outer Dark tainted each of the worlds, and the bright light of the White was dimmed in all of them."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 04 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

Conclusion:
1) Gan is a fool.
2) Gan is vulnerable.
3) Gan is unable to predict the future.
4) Gan is unable to fix the damage.
5) Gan needs servants for protection - the Guardians.
6) Gan cannot travel in time to prevent all of this.

 

[Jockey-1337]

3. Bessa, Beams, and Guardians.

There are other creatures of the Prim, some of them are comparable to Gan himself:

"According to Mid-World folklore, Bessa is the beloved wife of the great god Gan, who is the animating spirit of the Dark Tower."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Guide to Gilead (2009) (Digital)

The Guardians also originate from the Prim, they are not beyond it:

"From the waters of the Prim arose twelve Guardians, animal totems meant to guard the Beam termination points..."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

The Guardians are different avatars/faces of Gan:

"As the Manni know, Mid-World is a land of many gods, but all of those gods are also one single divine force. The faces of the multiple divinities are but masks worn by the One; they are costumes tailored to fit the needs of individual worshippers. Similarly the Tower is an essence and a force whose form changes from world to world. And as its form changes, so does its function."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Treachery 04 (of 06) (2009) (Digital)

It is possible to replace the Guardians with their mechanical versions:

"Hax took it upon himself to inform the children of the castle about the history of the Great Old Ones, also known as the Old People of Mid-World. According to Hax, long before the time of Arthur Eld, before the Old People destroyed themselves with their own pride and hubris, they built twelve mechanical Guardians to atone for the wrongs they had done to their fellow men, and to the fabric of the time/space continuum."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Guide to Gilead (2009) (Digital)

"When everything was new, the Great Old Ones—they weren't gods, but people who had almost the knowledge of gods—created Twelve Guardians to stand watch at the twelve portals which lead in and out of the world. Sometimes I heard that these portals were natural things, like the constel-lations we see in the sky or the bottomless crack in the earth we called Dragon's Grave, because of the great burst of steam they gave off every thirty or forty days. But other people—one I remember in particular, the head cook in my father's castle, a man named Hax—said they were not natural, that they had been created by the Great Old Ones themselves, in the days before they hanged themselves with pride like a noose and disappeared from the earth. Hax used to say that the creation of the Twelve Guardians was the last act of the Great Old Ones, their attempt to atone for the great wrongs they had done to each other, and to the earth itself."
- The Waste Lands

The Guardians are not higher-dimensional:

"But no sooner did Sir Alfred indicate his agreement than twelve giant horsemen came galloping toward them from the compass' twelve directions. Though they had the bodies of men, the gargantuan warriors had the heads of beasts. Rat and Fish, Bat and Hare, Eagle and Lion, Dog and Horse, Turtle and Bear, Wolf and Elephant - all moved toward them at a preternatural speed, the red roses swaying in their wakes like swirling rivers of blood. Taheen mutants from the desert! Sir Bertrand cried as he reached for his non-existent sword. He was determined to defend his unconscious king to the last, but Sir Alfred grabbed his arm. Not taheen, Sir Alfred whispered, but guardians. THE Guardians. By using the plumb bob, we called to the Tower, and the Tower answered!"
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 03 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

The Guardians walk among mortals and are limited by the timeline/storyline. The Guardians depend on mortals and are killable:

"YOU! the false King Arthur cried. The Old People killed you! You are no more than stories! No more than a ghost! But still I shall split your skull and suck on your bones! With an angry roar, the uffi flung his cleaver at the Wolf Guardian's head, but the Guardians raised their hands as one and the cleaver stopped and hovered in the air as if it weighed no more than a feather. And when the false Arthur's ghoulish entourage ululated their banshee-like war cry and hurled themselves forward to attack with their teeth, they too were frozen mid-movement."
"Nay! The Guardians cried in what sounded like a single voice that was half human half feral. One day we shall die but that time has not yet come, just as the one who shall resurrect us has yet to be born. We merely slept, but the horrors of your feasts have wakened us!"
"Then, as Gilead's exhausted gunslingers stared in awe from their cages and manacles and puddles of blood, the Wolf Guardian addresses the entourage of ghouls. This is not your level of the Tower, he growled. It is time to go."
"No! the ghouls cried. Not yet! For we have not even begun to appease our hunger! But it was no use. In a flash of white light, Guardians and ghouls disappeared. leaving behind them only piles of bones and old skin as thin and fragile as late autumn leaves."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 03 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

It is possible to harm/to damage/to kill a Guardian:

"In The Waste Lands, Roland draws this map of Mid-World for Susannah and Eddie Dean, just after Susannah has shot a giant but crazed bear that was about to swat Eddite out of existence. According to Roland, the bear was named Shardik, and he was not an actual bear at all but a cyborg created by the Great Old Ones..."
"Before he went mad, Shardik's job was to keep vigil at one of Mid-World's twelve Portals, and to protect the Beam which originated there."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Man in Black 02 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)

One of the Guardians (Maturin) made a universe:

"What are you?"
"I'm the Turtle, son. I made the universe, but please don't blame me for it; I had a bellyache."
"Help me! Please help me!"
"I take no stand in these matters. My brother — has his own place in the macroverse; energy is eternal, as even a child such as yourself must understand."
- Source: It (novel)

...but died later because he "choked to death on a galaxy or two"

"Your friend the Turtle... he died a few years ago. The old idiot puked inside his shell and choked to death on a galaxy or two. very sad, don't you think? but also quite bizarre, deserves a place in Ripley's Believe It or Not, that's what I think, happened right around the same time you had that writer's block, you must have felt him go, Little Buddy."
- Source: It (novel)

These Guardians have thinking-caps connecting them to their magical roots, without which they die:

"In all instances these dishes are called "thinking caps" and are reputed to contain a second brain that telepathically links the individual Guardians to the over-mind of the Dark Tower."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

The Old Ones were able to replace even the Beams themselves with their tech:

"Nonetheless, the Old Ones' experiments with the time-space continuum continued, and they sought to replace the magical Dark Tower (a nexus among all realities) and its beams with technological replicas. These "achievements" became possible as North Central Positronics began to merge technology and magic. which enabled them to accomplish feats that would not have been feasible with technology or magic alone."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

The Dark Tower is a fragile structure; it needs the Beams because they hold it in place:

"Emanating from the Dark Tower are the Beams, six stationary energy radii which pass through the Dark Tower and hold it in place."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

"And each of these Beams served to hold Mid-World together." - Roland's explanation.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Man in Black 02 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)


Without Beams, the Tower will fall. The Beams are vulnerable to psychic/telepathic powers:

"I'd already helped them to snap one Beam and I was cutting centuries off their work on Shardik's Beam. And when Shardik's Beam snaps, lady and gentlemen, Gan's can only last a little while. And when Gan's Beam also snaps, the Dark Tower will fall, creation will end, and the very Eye of Existence will turn blind. - The Dark Tower, 296"
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 01 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)

"Connecting opposite Portals were six magnetic Beams which crossed at the map's central nexus point - the location of the thirteenth and most powerful Portal, the Dark Tower itself. While the twelve lesser portals were doorways, the Beams were like invisible high tension wires. They affected gravity and maintained the proper alignment of time, space, size, and dimension. Their purpose was to bind the multiverse together while simultaneously holding the separate worlds apart. They also held the Dark Tower in place. In fact, the reason that the Dark Tower was beginning to falter was that the Beams themselves were beginning to snap. (In fact, Roland and his ka-mates experienced such a Beamquake just after the fall of Gilead.)"
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Man in Black 02 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)

BREAKERS (BEAM BREAKERS)
The Breakers of THUNDERCLAP are both the prisoners and the servants of the CRIMSON KING. Imprisoned in the DEVAR-TOI, located in the poisoned land of END-WORLD, they use their psychic abilities to weaken the BEAMS, which hold the DARK TOWER in place. Although few (if any) of the Breakers willingly undertook the job of destroying the macroverse, few of them complain once they experience the diverse pleasures available beneath the Devar’s artificial sun.
- Source: The Dark Tower Glossary

THUNDERCLAP
In Wizard and Glass we learn that the fey realm of Thunderclap sits on the lip of END-WORLD. In Wolves of the Calla, we discover that the dark land of Thunderclap sits just east of the BORDERLANDS, which in turn sit on the eastern edge of MID-WORLD-that was. Thunderclap is the home of the DEVAR-TOI, or Big Prison, where the CRIMSON KING keeps the psychic BREAKERS. The Breakers (who are human) are forced to use their wild talents to erode the BEAMS so that the foundering DARK TOWER will collapse, causing the macroverse to blink out of existence.
- Source: The Dark Tower Glossary

"A tower stands at the center of the universe protecting us from darkness"
"It is said the mind of a child can bring it down"
- Source: The Dark Tower Movie (2017), more scans here: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8.

"The Breakers are scratching away at the Beams that hold the Dark Tower in place."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 01 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)

More scans from the same comic book: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 01 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)

 

[Jockey-1337]

4. The Tower, its scale, and the dangers of the Tower's collapse.

The Tower has a finite height with a reachable top and a finite number of floors:

"The Dark Tower itself features narrow, slit windows which emit an eldritch blue glow and ascend the building in a gradual upward spiral nearly 600 feet into the sky. Each of its twisting stairways leads to a different level of creation, including distant time periods and alternate realities. At the top of the Tower is an oriel window consisting of twelve colors..."
- Source: End-World Almanac 01 (2008)

"As every Mid-World child will tell you, the Dark Tower stretches up almost to infinity..."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

The Dark Tower is Gan's body:

"Although the Dark Tower appears to be constructed from gray stone, legend has it that this stone is actually hardened flesh, and that the Tower, Beams, and roses are but one living, self-sustaining entity. Just as the Tower is believed to be the body of Gan, the first being to rise out of the primordial Prim, so the roses and Beams are believed to be a living, singing force field that emanates from his body."
- Source: End-World Almanac 01 (2008)

The Macroverse is a part of the Tower, and the destruction of the Tower will destroy the Macroverse as well:

BREAKERS (BEAM BREAKERS)
The Breakers of THUNDERCLAP are both the prisoners and the servants of the CRIMSON KING. Imprisoned in the DEVAR-TOI, located in the poisoned land of END-WORLD, they use their psychic abilities to weaken the BEAMS, which hold the DARK TOWER in place. Although few (if any) of the Breakers willingly undertook the job of destroying the macroverse, few of them complain once they experience the diverse pleasures available beneath the Devar’s artificial sun.
- Source: The Dark Tower Glossary

THUNDERCLAP
In Wizard and Glass we learn that the fey realm of Thunderclap sits on the lip of END-WORLD. In Wolves of the Calla, we discover that the dark land of Thunderclap sits just east of the BORDERLANDS, which in turn sit on the eastern edge of MID-WORLD-that was. Thunderclap is the home of the DEVAR-TOI, or Big Prison, where the CRIMSON KING keeps the psychic BREAKERS. The Breakers (who are human) are forced to use their wild talents to erode the BEAMS so that the foundering DARK TOWER will collapse, causing the macroverse to blink out of existence.
- Source: The Dark Tower Glossary

It is possible to "attack" the Tower from "below", the Crimson King's minions use the Imperium's tech for this:

"Nonetheless, the Old Ones' experiments with the time-space continuum continued, and they sought to replace the magical Dark Tower (a nexus among all realities) and its beams with technological replicas. These "achievements" became possible as North Central Positronics began to merge technology and magic. which enabled them to accomplish feats that would not have been feasible with technology or magic alone."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

"Many, but not all, of the Dogans still operating have fallen under the control of the Crimson King's Warriors of the Scarlet Eye."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

"Built by the Great Old Ones under the tutelage of the wizard Maerlyn, Mid-World's many Dogans were created as experimental stations where technology could be fused with magic. Some strategically placed Dogans also served as paramilitary control centers used primarily for surveillance of other Mid-World outposts. According to numerous undisclosed sources, the Dogans also had surveillance cameras located on other levels of the Dark Tower. Financed by private companies such as North Central Positronics, the Dogans offered numerous commercial services to the Imperium's populace, including mental enhancement treatments and mind-to-mind communication technology. However, the Dogans were also used by the Old Ones to create annihilating weapons of mass destruction. Ironically, many of the Dogans survived the Great Cataclysm, which their weapons wrought, but their creators did not. Perhaps the most sophisticated and well-known Dogan is the NPC Arc 16 Experimental Station, located in downtown Fedic, which was used as the Old Ones' central facility for merging technology and magic. Connected to nearby Castle Discordia via a labyrinth of subterranean passageways, Arc 16 is currently under the control of the Crimson King's followers, the Warriors of the Scarlet Eye. Arc 16's Control Suite nerve center is tended by highly advanced Mech-Foremen constructed by North Central Positronics. Lower levels feature tiled corridors and a rotunda with doorways leading to other times and places. The lowest, darkest levels of the facility are rumored to be inhabited by both wild mutant animals and man-eating todash monsters. Therefore, they remain unmapped."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

Gan's body (the Tower) has been damaged by... "architects, electricians, and builders":

"...the leaders of the Imperium claimed lordship over the whole of the time-space continuum. However, in order to truly control time and dimension, they had to conquer the lynchpin of existence. Hence, they decided to rebuild the Dark Tower. When the architects, electricians, and builders arrived in End-World, they were amazed by what they saw. Not only was the Tower more imposing than they had realized, but what they had taken for stone was actually hardened flesh. Still, they wanted to earn their glory, so they set to work. But no sooner did the first wrecking ball hit that imposing edifice than the ground was rocked by an enormous tremor. This Beamquake increased in intensity until a gaping fissure opened up in the earth and a dense yellow fog arose out of it. But this was no ordinary fog. Oh no. It had leaked from the monster-filled void between worlds, the place where the Great Ones waited. All those who had traveled to the Tower seeking fame screamed and ran, but none of them made it very far. From the depths of the todash fog, a Great One burped. All over Mid-World, monster-filled thinnies opened like sores on the skin of existence. The Imperium fragmented — each faction blaming the others for this terrible miscalculation — and soon there was war. Men and women fled in terror, but there was nowhere left to hide. Animals and plants caught in the poisonous crossfire mutated, and MidWorld was reduced to an irradiated wasteland. How Maerlyn laughed! But despite the horror and havoc, the Tower survived. Listing to one side on his cracked foundations, Gan let one drop of blood fall from his flesh."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 02 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)


Some of the tech of the Old Ones/the Imperium/North Central Positronics has been used as a weapon to damage the Dark Tower in the movie. The damage caused dimensional rifts, so monsters and magic could flood some of the worlds:

- Source: The Dark Tower Movie (2017): #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12, #13, #14, #15.

The Dark Tower has "all possible worlds," and under the Dark Tower's context, "all possible worlds" are just MWI:

"As we all know, the Dark Tower is not only the hub of the Mid-World world-wheel, but it is also the hub of all the worlds. It is the axis upon which time, space, and dimensions rotate, and as such it is the nexus point of all possible realities."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Journey Begins 05 (of 05) (2010) (Digital)

"In the Dark Tower Universe, there are not only multiple worlds circling around the Dark Tower, but many versions of those worlds. There are even multiple versions of our world, and each one contains alternative versions of us."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Journey Begins 05 (of 05) (2010) (Digital)

"But still, all three realities are linked through the Tower, and what poisons the ground in one where and when could easily leak through to another, and the evil god of one world could easily take a parallel, though outwardly different, form in a second reality."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Little Sisters of Eluria 02 (of 05) (2011) (Digital)

Different levels of the Dark Tower = other "wheres" and/or other "whens":

"The Dark Tower contains many levels, and within those levels are parallel words which mirror each other, but which are not exactly alike. I always view the Dark Tower comics as existing in one of these parallel worlds. If the Dark Tower novels exist in Tower Keystone, or the central world of the Dark Tower universe, then the Dark Tower comics exist in a spinoff world, one which is very similar to, but not exactly the same as, the one where The Gunslinger, The Drawing of the Three, The Waste Lands, Wizard and Glass, and the rest of the Dark Tower novels take place. When you think about it, this idea of parallel worlds isn't so different from contemporary theories in quantum physics. According to these theories, every time we make a decision and follow a certain path in life, another reality is born where we make a different decision and follow a different life path. For example, imagine that you are walking down the street. You come to a crossroad. You have a decision to make - you can either turn left and go home or you can turn right and go to the shop and buy a lottery ticket. You tell yourself that buying a lottery ticket is stupid, so you go home and take a nap. However in a parallel reality, a different version of you turned right and bought a lottery ticket...and won! (But don't be too sad that in this where and when you didn't buy that lottery ticket. On another level of the Tower, you were hit by a van before you even reached the store.)"
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Man in Black 01 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)

"Just as the Great Old Ones created doorways that led to other wheres and whens (in other words, to other levels of the Dark Tower), so their trains could travel between alternate realities."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Man in Black 03 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)

"Black Thirteen's special magic is its ability to make people travel todash, or through the void spaces between worlds, to other wheres and whens."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Man in Black 04 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)

"Hence although each child knows that he is special, he also knows that on at least one other level of the Dark Tower lives another child that is almost identical to him, and who occupies a home almost exactly the same as his."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

"Mid-World was not alone. Arthur Eld had called his kingdom All-World, but such a name was misleading. The Eld's kingdom had stretched across all the known inhabitable lands—hence the empire's epithet—but it had been a kingdom in Mid-World only. It had existed on only one level of the Tower."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 01 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

"As all Manni know, traveling todash is fraught with peril. If a ritual is not preformed properly or if a prayer is not uttered in full, the traveler can plummet into the void places between worlds where monsters lurk. Many have returned from todash mad or dying, and many more have never returned at all. But those who have come back to Mid-World have returned with tremendous knowledge. They have learned that Mid-World is but one of many parallel realities, and that in many of these alternative realities are twinners, or doubles, of the people of Mid-World. They have learned that each of these worlds has a unique destiny, though all of these destinies are linked by the linchpin of the time/space continuum known as the Dark Tower."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Treachery 04 (of 06) (2009) (Digital)

"Each Manni male spent years learning how to meditate and how to use the plumb-bobs and magnets which guided him through the todash-taken, or the holes in reality. But as the Manni had attested on many occasions, their form of travel also had its risks, not least of which was that a traveler could never guarantee that the version of Earth he returned to was exactly the same as the one he had left."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 01 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

"The worlds spun and seasons passed, but the Dark Tower was timeless. It generated time. Smokey-gray in color and surrounded by spiraling windows that emitted an eldritch-blue light, this linchpin of existence was the hub of the universe. Climbing up it was like entering a conch shell. Each of its narrow twisting stairways led to a different level of creation— a distant time period, an alternative reality, even a completely unimagined and unimaginable version of now. Our other selves, which Vannay called our twinners, existed in these alternative worlds."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 01 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

The collapse of the Tower will not be a proper multiversal destruction; the monsters and magic will simply flood the so-called "destroyed" multiverse:

Scans: #1, #2, #3.
- Source: The Dark Tower Movie (2017)

"The wreckage of the multiverse will provide a feast for generations to come."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

"He also knows that it is the job of the Guardians to simultaneously keep these realities separate —in other words, to keep him from meeting his doubles or twinners —but also to bind the multiple realities together so that the Dark Tower remains standing. If it were not for the Guardians, all the worlds would collapse into the void, and the birds and trees and lakes and people that fill them with life would be drowned in the undifferentiated and chaotic magic of the Prim."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

THINNY
Thinnies are places where the fabric of existence has almost entirely worn away. These cancerous "sores on the skin of existence" have increased in number since the DARK TOWER began to fail.
- Source: The Dark Tower Glossary

Thinnies have a very limited range and destructive potential. It is dangerous for birds, humans, and horses, but not for solid rocks:

Scans: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 04 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

Scans: #1, #2, #3, #4.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 07 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

 

[Jockey-1337]

5. The Crimson King and other Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim.

The Crimson King lives in the so-called "End-World", which is just a region of the planet (Mid World):

"On the outskirts of Mid-World are the Borderlands, the crescent of land that separates Mid-World from the desolate region of the planet known as End-World."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

There is also a map of End-World.
Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

"Just as Arthur Eld and his human descendants who serve the White are dedicated to protecting the Dark Tower, the Crimson King, as a servant of the Outer Dark, is obsessed with destroying it as well as all other worlds that spin around it."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

Look at the map and the Crimson King's description again. The Crimson King's land is closer to the Dark Tower than all other lands, but for some reason, he is unable to physically destroy it.
The Crimson King is a loser and weakling, despite a better starting position
The Crimson King is even unable to replicate the "feat" of "architects, electricians, and builders" .
Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 02 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

A big group of Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim is possibly more dangerous than the Crimson King himself:

"However, it is known that these restless creatures never give up the pursuit of their ultimate goal and are constantly devising new ways to free themselves. It is believed that they are currently attempting to tunnel through the earth to the catacombs beneath Castle Discordia and Fedic. If they succeed, the Crimson King may become the lesser of two evils that Mid-World faces."
- Source: End-World Almanac 01 (2008)

The Crimson King and Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim need "help" of people with supernatural abilities to destroy the Tower's Beams, look at my previous post (link).

One of those people with some supernatural abilities is Sheemie, a boy who, by the way, can fight with the Crimson King and Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim.
Some info about him.
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

Sheemie stunned the Crimson King, using his psychic powers.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 01 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)

The Crimson King's feats are not impressive at all. I know it is an "avatar" of the Outer Dark, but the Outer Dark itself doesn't have anything beyond this:

Scans: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 04 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

Scans: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)


In one of the possible (non-existent yet) futures, Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim used Sheemie's power to attack the Tower, and the Tower has been successfully destroyed, by the way:
Scans: #1, #2, #3, #4.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 02 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)

But Sheemie disliked this future, so he decided to fight with the monsters instead of joining them:
Scans: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 02 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)
His body survived the fight with the monsters and was in good shape (even without any protective suit, btw).

The Crimson King has very weak and limited telepathic abilities; he cannot easily enter even human minds:

"Nis is the name of both Mid-World's benevolent god of dreams and the land of sleep where he dwells. The Crimson King's great grey horse is also called Nis, though the Spider King of End-World stole this epithet for his steed in the hope that it would help him ride into the minds of sleeping humans and invade their thoughts."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Guide to Gilead (2009) (Digital)

The Crimson King needs magical artifacts to keep in contact and control his minions:

Scans: #1, #2, #3.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 02 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

The Crimson King and his minions are cowards; they have to use poisons (a very "serious" weapon for VS battles):

"This legendary garden is supposed to be located in a walled courtyard within the stronghold of Le Casse Roi Russe, the Castle of the Crimson King. Although the individual plants are chosen by the Red King himself, the magicians who tend them have one goal in mind: to crossbreed their master's strains to create ever more vigorous poisons. The ultimate purpose of these poisons is to kill both the gunslingers of Gilead and their Affiliation allies, and by so doing, throw Mid-World into chaos."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Treachery 05 (of 06) (2009) (Digital)

Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim were stuck in the abyss known as the Devil's Arse:

"Beyond the castle's outer wall is the abyss known as the Devil's Arse, a great chasm in the Earth filled with monsters constantly plotting to escape."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

"Such was the Origin of the gaping chasm located just northwest of the town of Fedic. It was here that large numbers of the demons and monsters from todash space became stranded upon the Prim's retreat. Unlike the sterile Demon Elementals left behind by the Prim, the horrific monstrosities of the chasm spend their waking hours reproducing and attempting to escape confinement. Fortunately, it appears that the majority of these monsters have been unsuccessful in their attempts to escape the chasm, which has been dubbed the "Devil's Arse" by locals as a result of the grotesque nature of its inhabitants."
- Source: End-World Almanac 01 (2008)

The Prim began to recede, and some of these monsters were unable to survive in natural conditions and died:
"...began to recede. Some of these monsters died, but others slithered into the void places between worlds and waited."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 02 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim are vulnerable to light and recession of the Prim:

"With the light of the Beams, his servants blinded us and seared our skins."
"His servants made the Prim recede."
"The singeing of Gan's blood-flowers tore through our minds, torturing us."
"For the first time, we hunger. We knew rage. We knew the desire for revenge."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 02 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)

It is not difficult to enter the Devil's Arse:
Scans: #1, #2.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 02 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)

...and it is not difficult to enter Todash Space, even 21st-century humans found a way to enter it:


- Source: The Mist Movie (2007)

Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim can be killed by bullets and flamethrowers:

• Source: The Dark Tower Movie (2017): #1, #2, #3, #4, #5.
• Source: The Mist Movie (2007): #1.

It is also possible to trap Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim:

"Jake has been snared by a succubus - one of the ancient oracle-demons that Mid-World's Old People trapped in stone circles so that they could cajole them into speaking prophecy. Such creatures can predict the future, but their utterances always come at a terrible price."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Way Station 04 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)

Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim were unable to conquer Earth, so they had to use sneaky tactics:

"Whereas each of the colored spheres contained the secret of a different form of magic —one contained the skill of levitation, another held the secret of telepathy, yet another the power to move between worlds — the black contained only the evil of the void. His work done, Maerlyn passed his hands over the Bends o' the Rainbow, and in the heart of each seductive sphere he placed a curse. Though magic was by nature neither good nor bad, these spheres would bring only sorrow to their users. Maerlyn walked to the edge of the Prim and lifted his arms to the sky. He called out to his brothers and sisters, the Great Ones, and entreated them to journey with him to the coronation of the new human king. There, disguised as men and women, they could wreak their vengeance on those who sought to cage them. There they could feed. The Great Ones came. Though they arose from the Prim in their terrible insect-like bodies, as air touched their skins they became a parade of knights and ladies."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 02 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

"When the last of the courtiers were asleep, the Prim's lords and ladies shed their human skins. They were not men and women at all but great man-eating insects! Holding his hand over his mouth to keep from gagging, Sir Kay moved from shadow to shadow, skirting the gorging monsters, searching for Arthur. When he found him, the king was unconscious. But worse yet, he was in the arms of a giant red spider. Bellowing Arthur's name, Sir Kay charged the spider and pierced it with his sword. The spider shrieked and bit Sir Kay, but it had been gravely wounded. As it scurried away, its black blood seared the grass. When the court awoke, the creatures of the Prim were gone, but so were many of the courtiers. Howling with grief, servants covered the bodies of the half-eaten dead..."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 02 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

Tak the Outsider is a "big god" by Dark Tower standards, and even he needs minions:

CAN-TAH​

The term can-tah translates as “little god.” The can-tah found in the Dark Tower novels is a tiny scrimshaw turtle. Constant Readers have met the can-tah before, namely in Stephen King’s novel Desperation. In Desperation, the can-tah were tiny demonic sculptures depicting the CAN-TOI—coyotes, snakes, etc.—that served Tak the Outsider. (Tak is short for can-tak, which means "big god.")
- Source: The Dark Tower Glossary

Tak is also limited by physical stuff:

"Tak the Outsider - Tak, the demon that lives beneath the town of Desperation."
"What is Tak? In Desperation, we are told that Tak is the ancient one, the unformed heart. He is the big god, a demon, a dangerous nothing."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Little Sisters of Eluria 02 (of 05) (2011) (Digital)

"Tak is a desert god - a Lovecraftian monster that lives deep below the lonely and desolate Desatoya Mountains of Nevada."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Little Sisters of Eluria 02 (of 05) (2011) (Digital)

And Tak's abilities are very weak and limited overall:

"However, just as Tak can transform deputies into lawless killers and caring mothers into terrifying predators..."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Little Sisters of Eluria 02 (of 05) (2011) (Digital)

 

[Jockey-1337]

6. The Old Ones/The Great Old Ones/The Imperium/North Central Positronics.

The Old Ones died because of radiation and chemical dangers; it is very unimpressive "feat" for a multiversal civilization:

"Blind to the dangers that their activities caused, the Old Ones' wars, weapons, and pollutants gave rise to many mutant species. Their computers and weapons were eventually responsible for the great nuclear and chemical catastrophes that ultimately brought an end to their way of life and left few survivors."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

"Over a thousand years after the Great Cataclysm that destroyed the society of the Great Old Ones..."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

"Centuries after the Great Cataclysm irradiated Mid-World and devastated the society of the Great Old Ones..."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

"actual work in the refinery is performed by Slow Mutants, a race of humans which were mutated by the toxins released by the Old One's catastrophic wars over 1,800 years ago."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

"The greatest of Mid-World's wounds were caused by the Great Old Ones, those technologically advanced people who poisoned Mid-World's air, soil, water."
"Mid-World's many mutants were created by the fallout of the Great Old Ones' wars, and the Dogans - those laboratories where magic and technology can be merged - were their creations."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Way Station 04 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)

"Thirteen hundred years before Arthur Eld journeyed to the crimson fields of Can'-Ka No Rey so that he could climb to the top of the Dark Tower and retrieve the guns and sword that lay dreaming of him, the Old People of Mid-World engaged in all-out war. This Armageddon destroyed every government, every military control center, and every city on the face of the earth. The bodies of those men and women who were not able to shelter from the contaminating blasts (or who took cover in toxic areas) were altered beyond recognition by the poisonous fallout. Like the animals, plants, insects, and fish of Mid-World, they mutated."
"The name given to this catastrophic event by surviving generations were many - The Old War, The Great Cataclysm, The Great Fire, The Great Poisoning - but none captured the complete horror of the event. Part biochemical explosion, part nuclear disaster, part biological attack, it was like the Big Bang in reverse - not the beginning of things, but the end of them."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 04 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

It is possible to fool the Old Ones; their civilization died because of it, and they were stupid unable to predict the future, it is a serious anti-feat for a multiversal civilization:

"It was Maerlyn who, in the form of a grey-bearded wizard, taught the Great Old Ones to build the Dogans where they fused technology and magic - and it was Maerlyn who persuaded the Imperium's companies such as North Central Positronics to attempt to claim lordship over the space-time continuum by destroying and then rebuilding the Dark Tower with their own technology. Thus, it was Maerlyn who was indirectly responsible for the Great Cataclysm that befell the world when the Great Old Ones attempted to follow through with the Dark Tower's destruction, causing death and horror to spread like wildfire across Mid-World as society collapsed and disease spread."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

Despite their scale, they were unaware of the true nature of the multiverse:

"...but although their many breakthroughs seemed miraculous, they were conducted with little or no insight into the true nature of the multiverse."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)


The Old Ones can travel to other whens and wheres, but their capabilities are limited, as well as their net of doorways.

"Although all of the doorways we have discussed so far are magical doorways, Mid-World also has its fair share of mechanical doorways-between-worlds. These mundane portals were created by the technological wizardry of the Great Old Ones. Unlike magical doorways which can lead to anywhere (depending upon the needs of their users), mechanical portals always open onto the same where and when."
"Below the Fedic Dogan alone there were once 595 working doorways that led to places and times all over the known (and unknown) worlds."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Man in Black 04 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)

An example of magical doorways:
"Folks say the Manni can go "todash", move between worlds. Just fade away. Cuthbert never took much stock in that... ...until he suddenly sees both Roland and Alain vanish, just like the Manni wre said to do. Leaving nothing but a big ball of living lightning in their wake."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 03 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

 

[Jockey-1337]

7. Mythbusting:

7.1. Myth: Todash Space > The Prim.

The "Todash Space > The Prim" fanon comes from these quotes:

"Though Mid-World was like a disk-shaped island floating in the sea of Prim, which was itself but a drop of magical potential in the void of todash space, Mid-World was not alone."
- Source: The Gunslinger Born

"Beyond the seas was the rim of the world, and beyond the rim heaved the Prim, the magical, primordial soup of creation. Beyond the Prim was the void of todash darkness that stretched to infinity."
- Source: The Gunslinger Born

People who support this idea miss the key moments:

A) The "volume" of Prim has receded to (almost) nothingness. See the post about the Prim. (link)
Before the recession, the Prim was everywhere. Todash Space = Prim. They are the same "volume," but Todash is empty, without "magical water". It is like the desert that remained after the sea dried up.

B) This info comes from Vannay, a mortal philosopher/teacher who cannot know about these things, such as the size of the universe. Moreover, I would not trust a guy who thinks that the Earth is flat/disk-shaped (despite the evidence of otherwise, unknown to Vannay).

"One late autumn afternoon, when Roland, Alain and Cuthbert were still young enough to be bored by their lessons, their philosophy tutor Vannay made them a proposition. If they would stop yawning, he would take them outside for the rest of the day."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 01 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

"Pointing to his map, Vannay told the boys that Mid-World was flat and round. On all sides it was bordered by water—the Western Sea, the South Seas, the Clean Sea, and the frozen, ice-capped Northern Sea. In actuality, all the seas were one. Beyond the seas was the rim of the world, and beyond the rim heaved the Prim, the magical, primordial soup of creation. Beyond the Prim was the void of todash darkness which stretched to infinity."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 01 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

"And what is the Tower? Vanay asked softly as Roland, now abashed by his own forwardness, settled back into his usual moody silence and sat down. The linchpin of space and time, Cuthbert and Alain answered in unison. And what exactly does that mean? Vannay inquired. The boys were silent, so Vannay explained. Though Mid-World was like a disk-shaped island floating in the sea of the Prim, which was itself but a drop of magical potential in the void of todash space, Mid-World was not alone. Arthur Eld had called his kingdom All-World, but such a name was misleading. The Eld's kingdom had stretched across all the known inhabitable lands—hence the empire's epithet—but it had been a kingdom in Mid-World only. It had existed on only one level of the Tower."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 01 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

7.2. Myth: Reality > Fiction.

There are no "Reality > Fiction" levels in the Dark Tower Universe. The "Reality > Fiction" stuff is fanon of some fans. For example, some fans think that Gan has "R>F" transcendence over its creation only because he was called "the author of all there was". It is hilariously insufficient. My friend is an engineer, and he makes technical documentation. He is the author of many documents. Does it mean he has "R>F" transcendence over it? It is hilarious.

"The Turtle spoke in Bill's head, and Bill understood somehow that there was yet Another, and that Final Other dwelt in a void beyond this one. This Final Other was, perhaps, the creator of the Turtle, which only watched, and It, which only ate. This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was."
- Source: It (novel)

This quote is also hilariously insufficient "support" of "R>F". Gan's mind registers them as a mote. Cool, our minds also register motes as motes, nothing more, nothing less:

"Suddenly he thought he understood: It meant to thrust him through some wall at the end of the universe and into some other place (what that old Turtle called the macroverse) where It really lived; where It existed as a titanic, glowing core which might be no more than the smallest mote in that Other's mind; he would see It naked, a thing of unshaped destroying light, and there he would either be mercifully annihilated or live forever, insane and yet conscious inside Its homicidal endless formless hungry being."
- Source: It (novel)

Moreover, there are examples against their interpretations - it is easy to travel between worlds with magical artifacts, and less easy with the Imperium's technological doorways (link), but still possible. The characters and objects disappear in one world and appear in other ones; it is serious evidence against "R>F" interpretations:

"Folks say the Manni can go "todash", move between worlds. Just fade away. Cuthbert never took much stock in that... ...until he suddenly sees both Roland and Alain vanish, just like the Manni wre said to do. Leaving nothing but a big ball of living lightning in their wake."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 03 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

"A Manni plumb bob! he exclaimed. Where will it take us? Sir Alfred shrugged. I have no idea, he replied. But any place is better than this one. Now grab King Arthur and hold onto my arm! For a moment, the bodies of the three companions faded in and out of existence in a series of jerky pulses. Then, as the air vibrated with a high, painful chiming, their shackles clanked to the floor, completely empty. When Sir Alfred opened his eyes, he was lying in a field of fragrant red roses."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 03 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

"Then, as Gilead's exhausted gunslingers stared in awe from their cages and manacles and puddles of blood, the Wolf Guardian addresses the entourage of ghouls. This is not your level of the Tower, he growled. It is time to go."
"No! the ghouls cried. Not yet! For we have not even begun to appease our hunger! But it was no use. In a flash of white light, Guardians and ghouls disappeared. leaving behind them only piles of bones and old skin as thin and fragile as late autumn leaves."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 03 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

Also, if the Prim and/or higher floors of the Tower have "R>F" degree of transcendence over lower floors, it would be impossible to feast on "the wreckage of the multiverse", because it is impossible to feast on non-real stuff:

"The wreckage of the multiverse will provide a feast for generations to come."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

7.3. Myth: Higher dimensions.
In fact, the "Grain of sand > Universe > Grain of sand > Universe..." stuff comes from the mouth of the Man in Black, who is a minion (and the "primary operative") of "the king of lies", so we don't have to trust what he said:


The universe (he said) is the Great All, and offers a paradox too great for the finite mind to grasp. As the living brain cannot conceive of a non-living brain - although it may think it can - the finite mind cannot grasp the infinite.

The prosaic fact of the universe's existence alone defeats both the pragmatic and the romantic. There was a time, yet a hundred generations before the world moved on, when mankind had achieved enough technical and scientific prowess to chip a few splinters from the great stone pillar of reality. Even so, the false light of science (knowledge, if you like) shone in only a few developed countries. One company (or cabal) led the way in this regard: North Central Positronics, it called itself. Yet, despite a tremendous increase in available facts, there were remarkably few insights.

"Gunslinger, our many-times-great grandfathers conquered the-disease-which-rots, which they called cancer, almost conquered aging, walked on the moon - "

"I don't believe that," the gunslinger said flatly.

To this, the man in black merely smiled and answered, "You needn't. Yet it was so. They made or discovered a hundred other marvelous baubles. But this wealth of infomation produced little or no insight. There were no great odes written to the wonders of artificial insemination - having babies from frozen mansperm - or to the cars that ran on power of the sun. Few if any seemed to have grasped the truest principle of reality: new knowledge leads to yet more awesome mysteries. Greater physiological knowledge of the brain makes the existence of the soul less possible yet more probable by the nature of the search. Do you see? Of course you don't. You've reached the limits of your ability to comprehend. But nevermind - that's beside the point."

"What is the point then?"

"The greatest mystery the universe offers is not life but size. Size encompasses life, and the Tower encompasses size. The child, who is most at home with wonder, says: Daddy, what is above the sky? And the father says: The darkness of space. The child: What is beyond space? The father: The galaxy. The child: Beyond the galaxy? The father: Another galaxy. The child: Beyond the other galaxies? The father: No one knows.

"You see? Size defeats us. For the fish, the lake in which he lives is the universe. What does the fish think when he is jerked up by the mouth through the silver limits of existence and into a new universe where the air drowns him and the light is blue madness? Where huge bipeds with no gills stuff it into a suffocating box abd cover it with wet weeds to die?

"Or one might take the tip of the pencil and magnify it. One reaches the point where a stunning realization strikes home: The pencil tip is not solid; it is composed of atoms which whirl and revolve like a trillion demon planets. What seems solid to us is actually only a loose net held together by gravity. Viewed at their actual size, the distances between these atoms might become league, gulfs, aeons. The atoms themselves are composed of nuclei and revolving protons and electrons. One may step down further to subatomic particles. And then to what? Tachyons? Nothing? Of course not. Everything in the universe denies nothing; to suggest an ending is the one absurdity.

"If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END? No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through the shell (or find a door), what great and torrential light might shine through your opening at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them?

"Perhaps you saw what place our universe plays in the scheme of things - as no more than an atom in a blade of grass. Could it be that everything we can perceive, from the microscopic virus to the distant Horsehead Nebula, is contained in one blade of grass that may have existed for only a single season in an alien time-flow? What if that blade should be cut off by a scythe? When it begins to die, would the rot seep into our universe and our own lives, turning everthing yellow and brown and desiccated? Perhaps it's already begun to happen. We say the world has moved on; maybe we really mean that it has begun to dry up.

"Think how small such a concept of things make us, gunslinger! If a God watches over it all, does He actually mete out justice for such a race of gnats? Does His eye see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a speck of hydrogen floating disconnected in the depth of space? And if He does see... what must the nature of such a God be? Where does He live? How is it possible to live beyond infinity?

"Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not worlds but universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed.

"Size, gunslinger... size.

"Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met at a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. And within it, a stairway, perhaps rising to the Godhead itself. Would you dare climb to the top, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a room?...

"You dare not."

And in the gunslinger's mind, those words echoed: You dare not.

- Source: The Gunslinger


Scans from the Comic book: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7.
"How many lies did you tell me?" - Roland was aware of the Man in Black's true nature - the Man in Black was a liar.
Personally I propose not to believe in the Outer Dark propaganda.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Man in Black 05 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)

Plus, the existence of higher dimensions would not work with the rest of the setting; look at the previous post about the Dark Tower's scale and structure. (link)


7.4. Myth: "Level 4 multiversal" scale / "All possible" worlds are Modal Realism.

This myth comes from these quotes:

Out of the Prim arose Gan, animating spirit of the Dark Tower. From the magical waters dripping out of his navel, Gan spun the physical universe. But sensing that one world was not large enough to contain all possible manifestations of life and experience, he divided the universe into multiple, parallel realities, and set six magnetic Beams in place to maintain the alignment of time, space, size, and dimension in all of them. Gan sat at the center of the world-web, singing the rocks and mountains and trees into existence, singing the song of the White.
- Source: The Gunslinger Born

In one sense he was not in the Agincourt at all, not in Point Venuti, not in Mendocino County, not in California, not in the American Territories, not in those other Territories; but he was in them, and in an infinite number of other worlds as well, and all at the same time. Nor was he simply in one place in all those worlds; he was in them everywhere because he was those worlds. The Talisman, it seemed, was much more than even his father had believed. It was not just the axle of all possible worlds, but the worlds themselves-the worlds, and the spaces between those worlds.
- Source: The Talisman

"I can't read the future, Fran," Glen said, and in the lamplight his face looked old and worn-the face, perhaps, of a failed magician. "I couldn't even properly see the effect Mother Abagail was having on the community until Stu pointed it out to me that night on Flagstaff Mountain. But I do know this: We're all in this town because of two events. The superflu we can charge off to the stupidity of the human race. It doesn't matter if we did it or the Russians, or the Latvians. Who emptied the beaker loses importance beside the general truth: At the end of all rationalism, the mass grave. The laws of physics, the laws of biology, the axioms of mathematics, they're all part of the deathtrip, because we are what we are. If it hadn't been Captain Trips, it would have been something else. The fashion was to blame it on 'technology,' but `technology' is the trunk of the tree, not the roots. The roots are rationalism, and I would define that word so: `Rationalism is the idea we can ever understand anything about the state of being.' It's a deathtrip. It always has been. So you can charge the superflu off to rationalism if you want. But the other reason we're here is the dreams, and the dreams are irrational. We've agreed not to talk about that simple fact while we're in committee, but we're not in committee now. So I'll say what we all know is true: We're here under the fiat of powers we don't understand. For me, that means we may be beginning to accept-only subconsciously now, and with plenty of slips backward due to culture lag-a different definition of existence. The idea that we can never understand anything about the state of being. And if rationalism is a deathtrip, then irrationalism might very well be a lifetrip . . . at least unless it proves otherwise."
- Source: The Stand

A) The 3rd quote comes from the viewpoint of a mortal; it is not the omniscient view of an author/reader. Plus, this viewpoint would not work with the rest of the setting.
B) Under the Dark Tower's context, "all possible worlds" is just MWI. Modal Realism is the existence of all logically possible worlds. For it to count as Modal Realism, people need to demonstrate that these worlds operate within the margin of logic. It is empty and hollow if there is no further explanation of what these possibilities are. It is strange to see that people use "all possible" stuff as evidence of the Full Mathematical Multiverse/Level 4 Multiverse/All Logical Modalities in 2025-2026.

Because even Tegmark's level 1 and level 3 multiverses have "all possible" stuff:

"According to current theories, processes early in the big bang spread matter around with a degree of randomness, generating all possible arrangements with nonzero probability"
- Source: Max Tegmark's work: Parallel Universes

"QUANTUM MECHANICS PREDICTS a vast number of parallel universes by broadening the concept of "elsewhere." These universes are located elsewhere, not in ordinary space but in an abstract realm of all possible states. Every conceivable way that the world could be (within the scope of quantum mechanics) corresponds to a different universe. The parallel universes make their presence felt in laboratory experiments, such as wave interference and quantum computation."
- Source: Max Tegmark's work: Parallel Universes

"The Nature of Time MOST PEOPLE THINK of time as a way to describe change. At one moment, matter has a certain arrangement; a moment later, it has another(left). The concept of multiverses suggests an alternative view. If parallel universes contain all possible arrangements of matter (right), then time is simply a way to put those universes into a sequence. The universes themselves are static; change is an illusion, albeit an interesting one."
- Source: Max Tegmark's work: Parallel Universes

"If physics is unitary, then the standard picture of how quantum fluctuations operated early in the big bang must change. These fluctuations did not generate initial conditions at random. Rather they generated a quantum superposition of all possible initial conditions, which coexisted simultaneously."
- Source: Max Tegmark's work: Parallel Universes

About "At the end of all rationalism, the mass grave. The laws of physics, the laws of biology, the axioms of mathematics...", again:
This fragment doesn't work as the evidence of a level 4 multiversal scale, because it doesn't work with the rest of the setting:

1) The cosmology can contain only A or only B, where A=the Prim, B=the Tower/the Multiverse. Full A and Full B cannot exist at the same time:

"Before the dawn of time and the formation of the multiverse, there was nothing but the magical Prim, that primordial soup of creation that stretched across all existence like a chaotic ocean. This was the case until Gan, the Spirit of the Dark Tower, emerged from the formless Prim and gave birth to the entire multiverse. As Gan slowly expanded, the Prim receded into nothingness. Soon all that remained of the Prim were the assorted demons stranded on Gan's earth who once called the Prim their home."
- Source: End-World Almanac 01 (2008)

"In the beginning there was only the Prim, the magical soup of creation. From the Prim arose Gan, the spirit of the Dark Tower, who spun the physical universe from his navel. When the magical tide of the Prim had receded from the earth, the Tower and the Beams remained, forming the framework of the time/space continuum. However, the receding Prim also left behind it a flotsam and jetsam of demons and elemental spirits."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Guide to Gilead (2009) (Digital)


"In the beginning, there was nothing but the Prim, the primordial force of chaotic magic which ate away at the nothingness in the universe. Gan, the spirit of the Dark Tower, was the first to erupt from the Prim - and from the ever-growing Gan emerged Mid-World, which eventually broke apart into many parallel worlds spinning around the axle of Gan. As the demon-infested Prim began to recede, many lesser demons became stranded on the shores of the parallel worlds. One of these demons was known as Maerlyn."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

"In those long ago days when the waters of the Prim covered the earth, we fed well."

"But then came our enemy, to disturb our feed."
"Gan hated the rich, unformed waters of the Prim. But most of all, he was jealous of our feeding"
"He wanted to create a new world with new creatures"
"He wanted to usurp our power and become Lord of All"
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 02 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)
In the middle of the transformation from point A to point B, the Prim and our planet Earth even co-existed. It is the evidence that the Prim's conditions are not hostile to normal laws of physics.

2) There are at least 3 known versions of Roland (from about an infinite number of them). The original one from the books, another version from the comics, and the 3rd one from the movie (the Afro American guy). All of them saved the Tower in their storylines. So the Tower cannot be a level 4 multiverse, because it depends on the stuff from below, and even different versions of this stuff. The Dark Tower itself doesn't have qualitative transcendence over historical modalities, lol.
It is possible to create a timeline which will cause the collapse of the Tower... wait, we already have this as a potential future:
In one of the possible (non-existent yet) futures, Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim used Sheemie's power to attack the Tower, and the Tower has been successfully destroyed, by the way:
Scans: #1, #2, #3, #4.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 02 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)
Conclusion: The Dark Tower cosmology doesn't contain all mathematical/logical possibilities. Otherwise, it should contain storylines where the Tower itself has been destroyed, and it doesn't work with the rest of the system.

3) Extra argument: the Dark Tower doesn't contain "all possible worlds", because, otherwise, it would contain the mirror's "fake" worlds + "infected" worlds + normal worlds since the very start of the multiverse:

"In the mirror's polished silver surface, good appeared ugly while evil seemed handsome. Not only did the mirror make all reflections of the White appear hideous and stupid, but it also made them seem ridiculous. In fact, the stronger the power of the White that it faced, the funnier the mirror found it and the louder it laughed. Eager to test the effectiveness of his new creation, Maerlyn called together all the evil imps coughed up by the Outer Dark. Telling these lesser demons of the Prim that he had made them a gift, Maerlyn unveiled his mirror. Oohing and ahhing in surprised delight, the ugly succubi, housies, and illsicks pirouetted before the glass, admiring their own false beauty. In fact, they were so fooled by Maerlyn's magic that they proclaimed the wizard to be king of creation and swore to obey him for eternity. Grinning widely, Maerlyn made his first kingly command. He ordered the imps to lift up his mirror and to carry it to the Dark Tower. It was time for Gan to see himself for the fool he truly was."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 04 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

But now the Tower contains only "infected" versions of the worlds:

"Though not even Maerlyn had expected it, every particle of his laughing mirror contained the concentrated evil of the whole. Hence anything they penetrated became infected by the mirror's vision. Though Gan had created his world as a place of good, he had not protected it against wickedness. So like a disease, wickedness spread. The shards of Maerlyn's laughing mirror blew into every possible future of every new world until no land was left uninfected. And of all the creatures tainted by Maerlyn's magic, none suffered so greatly as human beings. In some futures, the sharp microscopic particles flew into people's eyes, perverting their vision so greatly that they could only perceive the corrupt, the cruel, and the hateful as beautiful. But worse yet were the fates of those men and women whose hearts were pierced, since never again could they feel the emotions of love and joy, compassion or regret."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 04 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

"After Maerlyn's attack, Gan selected his twelve most loyal servants — Bear and Turtle, Dog and Horse, Eagle and Lion, Elephant and Wolf, Fish and Rat, Hare and Bat—to guard the termination points of the magnetic beams which were simultaneously the major doorways into and out of the multiple worlds. But not even the Guardians could undo what had been done. In the end, Maerlyn got his wish. The evil of the Outer Dark tainted each of the worlds, and the bright light of the White was dimmed in all of them."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 04 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

7.5. Myth: Guardians > Ka and the Tower.

This idea originates from this quote... and this idea destroys itself almost instantly:

"According to Mid-World's dash-dinhs, or religious leaders, the Guardians exist beyond the reach of ka, and so cannot be killed even by the Crimson King. We can only hope that they are right."
- Source: End-World Almanac 01 (2008)
"According to... religious leaders... we can only hope." Yeah, good luck. Should I say something else?

Btw, I found similar stuff in a different source:
"To these believers, the cyborgs are but mechanical equivalents of the tiny stone can-tah, or little gods, carved in the likeness of the Beams' sacred beasts. Whether giant robot or small palm stone, both are essentially magical objects created to focus and harness the tremendous protective force radiated by the actual Guardians who exist outside of time and space and beyond the fluctuations of ka."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

 

[Jockey-1337]

8. Conclusion:

1) The Prim is not the Ultimate Reality/Ultimate God because of its limits.
2) Gan is a fool with a bunch of weaknesses and anti-feats.
3) The Guardians also have a lot of limits and anti-feats. +They are killable.
4) The Tower is an infinite multiverse, but with a serious anti-feat: it needs extra supports (the Beams) to exist. The Beams were created as "crutches" for this multiverse. It is a critical weakness.
5) The Outer Dark/The Crimson King and Todash Space Monsters want to destroy the multiverse/the Tower. But they don't have multiversal power. On the other hand, they don't need multiversal power. They only need a group of "Breakers" (humans with some supernatural abilities such as telepathy) to destroy the Beams.
The Beams are fragile. No Beams = No Tower. GG.
6) The Old Ones/The Imperium is like Modern Earth civilization, but with slightly better tech (and technomagic) and the capabilities to travel to other whens and wheres.
7a) Todash Space = The Prime (before recession) > The Prime (after recession).
7b) The Dark Tower cosmology doesn't have higher dimensions (the info about higher dimensions comes from a person who is a liar and one of the main antagonists), and the floors of the Tower are not necessarily bigger or smaller than each other.
7c) The Dark Tower cosmology doesn't have "Reality > Fiction" levels (the info about "R>F" comes from some fans who want to "upgrade" their favorite fictional universe as high as possible).
7d) The Dark Tower cosmology doesn't have "all possible worlds" because it would not work with the rest of the setting.
7e) The Dark Tower has a lot of in-universe myths and legends.

Tiering:
The Prim: 2-A
The Tower/Gan: 2-A
Bessa: 2-A.
The Old Ones/The Imperium: highly likely 2-A
The Outer Dark: at least 2-C, possibly up to 2-A.
The Guardians and Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim: Unknown, up to 2-C for the strongest ones

Thanks for reading, have a good day!

 

[BoastJr]

I ain't reading all this

 

[Kellex]

Please, put it in a blog or a sandbox...

 

[Iiliminal]

Yakub and his children are not reading all that.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Bro
Put this all in a sandbox or a blog
Ain't no one is reading all of this without tuning out

 

[Jockey-1337]

What sandbox/blog?

I already have it in my sandbox on this forum.

 

[BoastJr]

What sandbox/blog?

I already have it in my sandbox on this forum.

If you made a Blog already then link that instead and ask people whether the arguments makes sense

Go through it slowly and disect any weaker points

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

What sandbox/blog?

I already have it in my sandbox on this forum.

You should have made a blog and put all of this in your blog.
Cause 6 comments, looks like a mess and no one wants to scroll like that. It's messy
Having everything in one blog looks more readable

 

[Re5yh]

Bro
Put this all in a sandbox or a blog
Ain't no one is reading all of this without tuning out

Jockey doesn't even create pages or edit on wikis. I will teach him

What sandbox/blog?

I already have it in my sandbox on this forum.

First, you should click on a page which is not view source. Second, you click on the edit button and you can edit whatever you want.

For the sandbox you should do like this:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Jockey-1337/Sandbox

Click create and b\put all your information here

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Jockey doesn't even create pages or edit on wikis. I will teach him

Damn

 

[Re5yh]

For the sandbox you should do like this:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Jockey-1337/Sandbox

Click create and b\put all your information here

When is he going to create his sandbox?

 

[Oxonom2962]

8. Conclusion :

1) Le Prim n'est pas la Réalité Ultime/le Dieu Ultime à cause de ses limites.
2) Gan est un imbécile avec un tas de faiblesses et d'anti-exploits.
3) Les Gardiens ont aussi de nombreuses limites et des capacités qui leur sont défavorables. + Ils peuvent être tués.
4) La Tour est un multivers infini, mais elle présente une faiblesse majeure : elle a besoin de supports supplémentaires (les Poutres) pour exister. Les Poutres ont été créées comme des béquilles pour ce multivers. C’est une faiblesse critique.
5) Les Monstres de l'Espace des Ténèbres Extérieures/du Roi Cramoisi et de Todash veulent détruire le multivers/la Tour. Mais ils ne possèdent pas le pouvoir multiversel. D'ailleurs, ils n'en ont pas besoin. Ils ont seulement besoin d'un groupe de « Briseurs » (des humains dotés de capacités surnaturelles comme la télépathie) pour détruire les Rayons.
Les poutres sont fragiles. Sans poutres, pas de tour. GG.
6) Les Anciens/L'Imperium sont comme la civilisation de la Terre moderne, mais avec une technologie légèrement meilleure (et de la technomagie) et la capacité de voyager dans d'autres époques et d'autres lieux.
7a) Espace Todash = Le Prime (avant la récession) > Le Prime (après la récession).
7b) La cosmologie de la Tour Sombre n'a pas de dimensions supérieures (les informations sur les dimensions supérieures proviennent d'une personne qui est un menteur et l'un des principaux antagonistes), et les étages de la Tour ne sont pas nécessairement plus grands ou plus petits les uns que les autres.
7c) La cosmologie de la Tour Sombre n'a pas de niveaux « Réalité > Fiction » (l'information sur « R > F » provient de certains fans qui veulent « améliorer » leur univers fictif préféré au maximum).
7d) La cosmologie de la Tour Sombre ne comporte pas « tous les mondes possibles » car cela ne fonctionnerait pas avec le reste de l'univers.
7e) La Tour Sombre regorge de mythes et de légendes internes à son univers.

Hiérarchisation :
Le Prim : 2-A
La Tour/Gan : 2-A
Bessa : 2-A.
Les Anciens/L'Imperium : très probablement 2-A
The Outer Dark : au moins 2-C, peut-être jusqu'à 2-A.
Les Gardiens et les Monstres de l'Espace Todash/Monstres de Prim : Inconnu, jusqu'à 2-C pour les plus puissants

Merci d'avoir lu, bonne journée !

Hi

 

[Oxonom2962]

Salut, merci de démontrer que vous n'avez malheureusement rien compris à La Tour Sombre (et à VSBW par la suite). Premièrement, on ne réfute pas un niveau inférieur à 1A avec des « Antifeats », mais on réfute directement ceux-ci. Ensuite, Gan ≠ Final Other ≠ La Tour Sombre ; c'est un point important à prendre en compte. Permettez-moi ensuite de vous exposer une thèse sur les atomes, qui démantèlera l'ensemble de vos arguments, car chaque Antifeat deviendra un exploit.

𝐅𝐢𝐫𝐬𝐭 𝐨𝐟 𝐀𝐥𝐥, 𝐇𝐞𝐫𝐞 𝐀𝐫𝐞 𝐒𝐨𝐦𝐞 𝐃𝐞𝐟𝐢𝐧𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧𝐬.

Atomes : un atome est simplement un corps combinable simple ; c’est la plus petite chose actuellement observable.

Atome — Wikipédia

fr.wikipedia.org

BDE TYPE 2 : Le BDE de type 2 est le fait de dépasser toutes les considérations dimensionnelles mathématiques, étant considéré comme beaucoup trop grand, même pour l'Univers V.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Beyond-Dimensional_Existence?so=search

L'univers V : En théorie des ensembles et dans les branches connexes des mathématiques, l'univers de von Neumann, ou hiérarchie d'ensembles de von Neumann, noté V, est la classe des ensembles héréditairement bien fondés. Cet ensemble, formalisé par la théorie des ensembles de Zermelo-Fraenkel (ZFC), est souvent utilisé pour interpréter ou justifier les axiomes de la ZFC. Ce concept porte le nom de John von Neumann, bien qu'il ait été publié pour la première fois par Ernst Zermelo en 1930.



Le rang d'un ensemble bien fondé est défini récursivement comme le plus petit nombre ordinal supérieur à la somme des rangs de tous ses éléments. [1] En particulier, le rang de l'ensemble vide est nul, et tout ordinal est égal à lui-même. Les ensembles de V sont classés dans la hiérarchie transfinie Vα, appelée hiérarchie cumulative, selon leur rang.

Von Neumann universe - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Par convention, un être/un ensemble d'êtres, un objet/un ensemble d'objets dépassant toutes les considérations mathématiques en raison de leurs dimensions excessives se voit attribuer le niveau d'Extérieur.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Tier_1-A

Naturellement, pour surpasser toutes les tailles géométriques, voir les mathématiques de l'Univers V, il faut surpasser toute quantification des ordinaux (premier, deuxième, N-ième, etc.).

La Tour Sombre, tome 1.

Dandelo, dans un discours à Roland déclarant l'absurdité de l'existence de l'avatar de Gan, explique très clairement à quel point la taille représente tout, et comment elle est complètement incompréhensible pour les esprits finis.

Ils nous expliquent directement que cette Taille, aussi grande soit-elle, est tout simplement englobée par la Tour Sombre.




Ainsi, elle englobe toutes les tailles, ce qui signifie que nous obtenons un minimum de taille extérieure pour la tour.

La Tour Sombre est également présente dans tous les espaces infinitésimaux. De plus, cela signifie que chaque atome, virus, molécule, cellule, etc., est respectivement un élément extérieur inférieur.

https://imgur.com/a/rVWNk89

Cependant, on ne peut se limiter à cela. Pour faire évoluer mon Atom, il me faudra escalader la Tour elle-même.



Au commencement, il n'y avait rien. Rien que Prim, une soupe primordiale, chaotique et bouillonnante. De cette soupe émergea Gan, l'esprit qui anime la Tour Sombre. Il éleva son corps à l'infini, accéléra les fenêtres autour de lui, ce qui eut pour conséquence de créer le temps ; il créa l'univers physique et le divisa en 7.

https://imgur.com/a/xPb4KGt

AXIOME I
Gan est un titre. Il ne s'agit en aucun cas du véritable nom de la créature. Autrement dit, ce que je viens de présenter est la Tour, et non le véritable Gan qui a tout révélé. J'établis donc une distinction ontologique entre la Tour et l'Autre Ultime (le véritable Gan). Chaque apparition de Gan est étayée par son identité ; Stephen King introduit ainsi clairement une distinction particulière. C'est pourquoi, afin d'éviter toute confusion, je supprimerai le mot « Gan » de mon analyse, à l'exception des extraits tirés des livres.

La Tour Sombre représente l'axe de toutes les réalités, de tous les temps, de toutes les possibilités de manifestations et d'expériences. C'est l'axe de toutes les histoires de Stephen King, de tous les univers et de toutes les dimensions. Seuls trois êtres existent au-delà. Maturin < Ça < L'Autre

https://imgur.com/a/I70JgBk

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https://imgur.com/a/B3BFxvN

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Dans La Tour Sombre, l'existence est hiérarchique.
Nous trouvons les « foies des temps courts, les foies des temps longs, les foies de tous les temps » ; chacun des êtres existe au sein d’une « sphère d’existence » supérieure.

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Par conséquent, étant de niveau Bas Extérieur, le niveau de supériorité n'est pas une transcendance quantitative, mais bien qualitative, qui existe bien sûr à l'infini.

Existant : Extérieur+

As a reminder, all of this is contained within the Tower, which is infinitely many times encompassed within an Atom.

https://imgur.com/a/rVWNk89

Consequently, this implies a High Outer.


Recursion

However, I have just scaled an Atom, but within an atom, consequently, there is another infinity, which means that an atom is H1A infinite layers.

I have still only scaled one Atom, so the atom therefore becomes infinite layers into High Outer infinite layers.

Unfortunately, I can continue this to infinity, but it is therefore necessary for me to stop here. I will thus restrict myself to:

Atom infinite layers into infinite layers into infinite layers into H1A infinite layers

Before introducing IT, I would like to clarify certain points.

IT IS NOT PENNYWISE

When we talk about Pennywise, we are talking about the Dancing Clown, whereas with the introduction of IT, we learn that IT is the Deadlights, beyond the Macroverse and the Great Turtle.
Why IT? Because it is considered a “homicidal formless being”.

In the cosmology of IT, three beings beyond all things are introduced.

First, the “Turtle,” who is none other than Maturin. She primarily served to help the children against Pennywise.

https://imgur.com/a/jSXNfsf

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Next, IT. The Deadlights, a hungry, homicidal, and formless being that exists beyond the Macroverse, and beyond the Turtle.

https://imgur.com/a/jSXNfsf

And finally, The Final Other, a being who is the author of all things, the author of IT and Maturin. It is said that IT is an infinitesimal part of its mind.

https://imgur.com/a/QzhSlCg

Moreover, it is affirmed that everything would stem from IT, and semantically speaking, the panel introduces that IT encompasses this universe, and that the only being beyond it (The Final Other) is the only one capable of affecting it.

https://imgur.com/a/ZOo7s42

The Dark Tower completely encompasses these existents, which gives H1A as a baseline.

Tier High 1-A

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However, as I explained, there is a clear regression; thus, I can add layers infinitely, but I will stop at a comprehensible tier.

Dark Tower H1A Infinite Layers

Modal Realism










Introduction: according to VSBW, possible worlds are:






possible worlds are concrete realities, existing and just as real as our world





it goes without saying that we are of course talking about an infinity of possibilities; these possibilities have a cardinality of | ℂ |.

However, when we read the Lewis PDF more carefully, we learn that all worlds are subject to classical logic, to an ontological equality (such that w¹ = w² and not w¹ >|< w²), and that a world denoted W is a maximally consistent set of logical possibilities. Explanation of the statement:

Set W: {p}, concretely subjected to classical logic. This is, of course, one single and unique world.

the application in fiction must therefore be applied in this way: prove that there concretely exists an infinity of worlds, such that my infinity (א⁰) excludes no possibility; I therefore assume that |W| = א0

In short, enough talk; I will insert Modal Realism into The Dark Tower.

In The Dark Tower, we are told thousands upon thousands of times that there exists an infinity of worlds.

This link contains 3 panels.
One tells us that there would exist an infinity of parallel worlds, of totally unimaginable versions of the present.

Another tells us about Jack, who, by touching the Talisman—which is an avatar artifact of the Dark Tower—will feel himself transformed into an infinity of versions, and this without contradiction.

Such as

W¹: Dragon, W²: Female Dragon, W³: Dragon spermatozoon, etc.

The third tells us that everything is contained within the Todash Darkness, the place of residence of IT, which encompasses all possible manifestations of experience or life. Thus, we fully respect the consensus for the establishment of possible worlds: an infinity of worlds that are repeatedly backed up as a set, meaning that no possibility is conceivable outside of it. It is also backed up that they correspond to the VSBW definition; possible worlds are therefore fully accepted.


IT H-1A+ T2

Apophatic Theology:

Apophatic theology is the “negative” theology of the study of God. By this, I mean that God, in apophatic theology, cannot be described by what He is, but rather by what He is not.

Théologie apophatique — Wikipédia

fr.wikipedia.org

VSBW directly addresses this subject on its omnipotence page; it is therefore appropriate to admit that this theory is applicable in a Meta under VSBW as an authority.

Omnipotence

Omnipotence, in its most common composition, is defined as the ability do to all things. It is usually accompanied by other attributes – Omnipresence and Omniscience. In more analytic terms, Omnipotence might be formulated as "X is Omnipotent iff, should X will a certain state-of-affairs Y, Y...

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Moreover, the application of apophatic theology to a character is sufficient to exactly fulfill all the criteria necessary for Tier 0, as it is a theory closely related to the mechanism of Tier 0 itself.

https://imgur.com/a/tm7NYMy

Thus, in order to prove my Tier 0 as a whole, I will have to prove that:

The incomprehensibility of my character does not come from an inferior intellect—such as a four-dimensional square being incomprehensible to three-dimensional beings—but is incomprehensible in its very nature, namely:

https://imgur.com/a/GQXg3yT

The incomprehension of the character must be correlated with its power and its magnitude; it must also be. It must furthermore transcend the entirety of the qualities of the intellectual object. It would therefore not be hyperboles, but serious affirmations regarding its ontology.

https://imgur.com/a/vCum6DL

Moreover, the statements of this character must be a duality, a comparison—this is the principle of “he is not” rather than “he is.” Statements beyond that should be considered exaggerations, but they will in no way hinder the scaling of the character.

https://imgur.com/a/m1Y8f8X

Dans l'univers de Stephen King, et plus précisément dans le roman « Ça », le clown qui a pris le contrôle de Derry et dévore des enfants selon un cycle de 27 ans est intimement lié à « La Tour Sombre ». En réalité, la cosmologie de « La Tour Sombre » est liée à l'ensemble de l'œuvre de Stephen King.

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De plus, cela existe au-delà du Macrovers, au-delà de la Grande Tortue.

https://imgur.com/a/jSXNfsf

Lors de l'ascension de Bill dans le Macrovers après avoir été aspiré par les Lumières Mortes, Ça atteint une limite – une limite cosmologique. Ça comprend alors et suppose l'existence d'un Autre au-delà. Cet Autre au-delà n'est jamais formellement décrit par ce qu'il est, mais par ce qu'il n'est pas.

Cet Autre habitait un vide au-delà

Aucune description formelle, seulement une affirmation de son existence. Cela ne réfute pas la théologie apophatique, car celle-ci affirme précisément l'existence d'un Dieu au-delà.


Cet Autre était peut-être le créateur de Ça et de la Tortue. Une Force au-delà de l'Univers, une Puissance au-delà de toute autre Puissance, l'Auteur de tout ce qui existait.

Aucune description formelle, seulement des suppositions directes utilisant le conditionnel ; elle est décrite comme une force au-delà de l'univers de IT, une non-dualité, l'auteur de toutes choses, obtenant ainsi des exploits de primauté et de création.


Là où il existait comme un noyau titanesque et incandescent, qui n'était peut-être rien de plus qu'une minuscule particule dans l'esprit de cet autre.

On dit que tout n'est qu'un grain de poussière infinitésimal à ses yeux, encore une fois, avec des suppositions.


Il est donc clair que rien n'est certain concernant l'Autre, si ce n'est son existence au-delà de toute chose et le fait que tout est créé par lui, chaque élément étant une partie infinitésimale de son esprit. De plus, ces accomplissements constants suffisent à conférer à l'Autre le niveau 0. L'indivisibilité n'est pas prouvée, car elle est impossible à prouver dans ce contexte. Cependant, VSBW note que le niveau 0 ne requiert pas la preuve de tous les prérequis. Par conséquent, compte tenu des attentes liées à l'échelle, je peux prouver que l'Autre est de niveau 0 par :

Ineffabilité

Omnipotence logique

Au-delà de toute dualité

Primauté


Les critères les plus importants du niveau 0.

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Je voudrais souligner certains points qui peuvent servir à réfuter les arguments d'un adversaire :

L'esprit est un anti-exploit !


Un esprit est un Anti-Feat s'il est capable de penser. L'esprit de l'Autre Ultime représente simplement un espace où existent tous les êtres cosmologiques.

Omnipotence

Omnipotence, in its most common composition, is defined as the ability do to all things. It is usually accompanied by other attributes – Omnipresence and Omniscience. In more analytic terms, Omnipotence might be formulated as "X is Omnipotent iff, should X will a certain state-of-affairs Y, Y...

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Mind Manipulation

Mind Manipulation is the ability to manipulate and control the minds of others. It is associated with Telepathy and Mind Reading, and these powers are often possessed by the same characters. While basic mind manipulation can be used for psychic suggestion and simple manipulation, higher-level...

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Ça existe dans l'espace ! C'est un anti-exploit !


Ce ne serait un Anti-Feat que si l'espace était régi par un concept métaphysique ou physique quelconque — par exemple, un espace physique composé de n'importe quoi, ou un espace métaphysique construit par un concept, une loi, etc. Le Vide de l'Autre Ultime est un « Vide » absolu, sans aucun support ; vide au sens propre du terme. Hormis l'Autre Ultime, aucun concept, dimension, loi, etc., n'existe dans ce vide.

Nonexistent Physiology

Nonexistent Physiology refers to the ability to lack certain aspects of one's existence, to paradoxically 'exist,' yet lack certain identifiable traits of existence or exist outside of a particular scope of 'existence.' While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Omnipotence

Omnipotence, in its most common composition, is defined as the ability do to all things. It is usually accompanied by other attributes – Omnipresence and Omniscience. In more analytic terms, Omnipotence might be formulated as "X is Omnipotent iff, should X will a certain state-of-affairs Y, Y...

vsbattles.fandom.com

L'Autre : Niveau 0

EVERYTHING: HIGH OUTER INFINITE LAYERS (LOW BALLED)
IT: H1A+ T2
THE OTHER: TIER 0

any objections? Add me on discord.
oxonom.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Hi

Par convention, un être/un ensemble d'êtres, un objet/un ensemble d'objets dépassant toutes les considérations mathématiques en raison de leurs dimensions excessives se voit attribuer le niveau d'Extérieur.

Hi, provide an English explanation, please; it is an English site.

However, I have just scaled an Atom, but within an atom, consequently, there is another infinity, which means that an atom is H1A infinite layers.

The "Universe > Grain of sand > Universe > Grain of sand" stuff comes from the Man in Black, who is a liar. I explained about it here:

7.3. Myth: Higher dimensions.
In fact, the "Grain of sand > Universe > Grain of sand > Universe..." stuff comes from the mouth of the Man in Black, who is a minion (and the "primary operative") of "the king of lies", so we don't have to trust what he said:


The universe (he said) is the Great All, and offers a paradox too great for the finite mind to grasp. As the living brain cannot conceive of a non-living brain - although it may think it can - the finite mind cannot grasp the infinite.

The prosaic fact of the universe's existence alone defeats both the pragmatic and the romantic. There was a time, yet a hundred generations before the world moved on, when mankind had achieved enough technical and scientific prowess to chip a few splinters from the great stone pillar of reality. Even so, the false light of science (knowledge, if you like) shone in only a few developed countries. One company (or cabal) led the way in this regard: North Central Positronics, it called itself. Yet, despite a tremendous increase in available facts, there were remarkably few insights.

"Gunslinger, our many-times-great grandfathers conquered the-disease-which-rots, which they called cancer, almost conquered aging, walked on the moon - "

"I don't believe that," the gunslinger said flatly.

To this, the man in black merely smiled and answered, "You needn't. Yet it was so. They made or discovered a hundred other marvelous baubles. But this wealth of infomation produced little or no insight. There were no great odes written to the wonders of artificial insemination - having babies from frozen mansperm - or to the cars that ran on power of the sun. Few if any seemed to have grasped the truest principle of reality: new knowledge leads to yet more awesome mysteries. Greater physiological knowledge of the brain makes the existence of the soul less possible yet more probable by the nature of the search. Do you see? Of course you don't. You've reached the limits of your ability to comprehend. But nevermind - that's beside the point."

"What is the point then?"

"The greatest mystery the universe offers is not life but size. Size encompasses life, and the Tower encompasses size. The child, who is most at home with wonder, says: Daddy, what is above the sky? And the father says: The darkness of space. The child: What is beyond space? The father: The galaxy. The child: Beyond the galaxy? The father: Another galaxy. The child: Beyond the other galaxies? The father: No one knows.

"You see? Size defeats us. For the fish, the lake in which he lives is the universe. What does the fish think when he is jerked up by the mouth through the silver limits of existence and into a new universe where the air drowns him and the light is blue madness? Where huge bipeds with no gills stuff it into a suffocating box abd cover it with wet weeds to die?

"Or one might take the tip of the pencil and magnify it. One reaches the point where a stunning realization strikes home: The pencil tip is not solid; it is composed of atoms which whirl and revolve like a trillion demon planets. What seems solid to us is actually only a loose net held together by gravity. Viewed at their actual size, the distances between these atoms might become league, gulfs, aeons. The atoms themselves are composed of nuclei and revolving protons and electrons. One may step down further to subatomic particles. And then to what? Tachyons? Nothing? Of course not. Everything in the universe denies nothing; to suggest an ending is the one absurdity.

"If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END? No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through the shell (or find a door), what great and torrential light might shine through your opening at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them?

"Perhaps you saw what place our universe plays in the scheme of things - as no more than an atom in a blade of grass. Could it be that everything we can perceive, from the microscopic virus to the distant Horsehead Nebula, is contained in one blade of grass that may have existed for only a single season in an alien time-flow? What if that blade should be cut off by a scythe? When it begins to die, would the rot seep into our universe and our own lives, turning everthing yellow and brown and desiccated? Perhaps it's already begun to happen. We say the world has moved on; maybe we really mean that it has begun to dry up.

"Think how small such a concept of things make us, gunslinger! If a God watches over it all, does He actually mete out justice for such a race of gnats? Does His eye see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a speck of hydrogen floating disconnected in the depth of space? And if He does see... what must the nature of such a God be? Where does He live? How is it possible to live beyond infinity?

"Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not worlds but universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed.

"Size, gunslinger... size.

"Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met at a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. And within it, a stairway, perhaps rising to the Godhead itself. Would you dare climb to the top, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a room?...

"You dare not."

And in the gunslinger's mind, those words echoed: You dare not.

- Source: The Gunslinger


Scans from the Comic book: #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7.
"How many lies did you tell me?" - Roland was aware of the Man in Black's true nature - the Man in Black was a liar.
Personally I propose not to believe in the Outer Dark propaganda.

IT IS NOT PENNYWISE

When we talk about Pennywise, we are talking about the Dancing Clown, whereas with the introduction of IT, we learn that IT is the Deadlights, beyond the Macroverse and the Great Turtle.
Why IT? Because it is considered a “homicidal formless being”.

Next, IT. The Deadlights, a hungry, homicidal, and formless being that exists beyond the Macroverse, and beyond the Turtle.

Maturin made a universe, and Deadlights are the Turtle's opponent. Nothing impressive.

And Macroverse is just a part of the Tower:

THUNDERCLAP​

In Wizard and Glass we learn that the fey realm of Thunderclap sits on the lip of END-WORLD. In Wolves of the Calla, we discover that the dark land of Thunderclap sits just east of the BORDERLANDS, which in turn sit on the eastern edge of MID-WORLD-that was. Thunderclap is the home of the DEVAR-TOI, or Big Prison, where the CRIMSON KING keeps the psychic BREAKERS. The Breakers (who are human) are forced to use their wild talents to erode the BEAMS so that the foundering DARK TOWER will collapse, causing the macroverse to blink out of existence.
- The Dark Tower Glossary

And finally, The Final Other, a being who is the author of all things, the author of IT and Maturin. It is said that IT is an infinitesimal part of its mind.

Debunked here:

7.2. Myth: Reality > Fiction.

There are no "Reality > Fiction" levels in the Dark Tower Universe. The "Reality > Fiction" stuff is fanon of some fans. For example, some fans think that Gan has "R>F" transcendence over its creation only because he was called "the author of all there was". It is hilariously insufficient. My friend is an engineer, and he makes technical documentation. He is the author of many documents. Does it mean he has "R>F" transcendence over it? It is hilarious.

"The Turtle spoke in Bill's head, and Bill understood somehow that there was yet Another, and that Final Other dwelt in a void beyond this one. This Final Other was, perhaps, the creator of the Turtle, which only watched, and It, which only ate. This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was."
- Source: It (novel)

This quote is also hilariously insufficient "support" of "R>F". Gan's mind registers them as a mote. Cool, our minds also register motes as motes, nothing more, nothing less:

"Suddenly he thought he understood: It meant to thrust him through some wall at the end of the universe and into some other place (what that old Turtle called the macroverse) where It really lived; where It existed as a titanic, glowing core which might be no more than the smallest mote in that Other's mind; he would see It naked, a thing of unshaped destroying light, and there he would either be mercifully annihilated or live forever, insane and yet conscious inside Its homicidal endless formless hungry being."
- Source: It (novel)

Moreover, there are examples against their interpretations - it is easy to travel between worlds with magical artifacts, and less easy with the Imperium's technological doorways (link), but still possible. The characters and objects disappear in one world and appear in other ones; it is serious evidence against "R>F" interpretations:

"Folks say the Manni can go "todash", move between worlds. Just fade away. Cuthbert never took much stock in that... ...until he suddenly sees both Roland and Alain vanish, just like the Manni wre said to do. Leaving nothing but a big ball of living lightning in their wake."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 03 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

"A Manni plumb bob! he exclaimed. Where will it take us? Sir Alfred shrugged. I have no idea, he replied. But any place is better than this one. Now grab King Arthur and hold onto my arm! For a moment, the bodies of the three companions faded in and out of existence in a series of jerky pulses. Then, as the air vibrated with a high, painful chiming, their shackles clanked to the floor, completely empty. When Sir Alfred opened his eyes, he was lying in a field of fragrant red roses."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 03 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

"Then, as Gilead's exhausted gunslingers stared in awe from their cages and manacles and puddles of blood, the Wolf Guardian addresses the entourage of ghouls. This is not your level of the Tower, he growled. It is time to go."
"No! the ghouls cried. Not yet! For we have not even begun to appease our hunger! But it was no use. In a flash of white light, Guardians and ghouls disappeared. leaving behind them only piles of bones and old skin as thin and fragile as late autumn leaves."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 03 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

Also, if the Prim and/or higher floors of the Tower have "R>F" degree of transcendence over lower floors, it would be impossible to feast on "the wreckage of the multiverse", because it is impossible to feast on non-real stuff:

"The wreckage of the multiverse will provide a feast for generations to come."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Long Road Home 05 (of 05) (2008) (Digital)

Moreover, it is affirmed that everything would stem from IT, and semantically speaking, the panel introduces that IT encompasses this universe, and that the only being beyond it (The Final Other) is the only one capable of affecting it.

Cool. Gan is just a bigger and more powerful creature than Maturin, Deadlights, and other creatures of the Prim.

Dark Tower H1A Infinite Layers

Modal Realism










Introduction: according to VSBW, possible worlds are:






possible worlds are concrete realities, existing and just as real as our world





it goes without saying that we are of course talking about an infinity of possibilities; these possibilities have a cardinality of | ℂ |.

There are no scans here; the links are broken.

Plus, the "all possibilities" in the context of the Dark Tower's cosmology is just 2-A, like Tegmark's level 3 multiverse:

7.4. Myth: "Level 4 multiversal" scale / "All possible" worlds are Modal Realism.

This myth comes from these quotes:

Out of the Prim arose Gan, animating spirit of the Dark Tower. From the magical waters dripping out of his navel, Gan spun the physical universe. But sensing that one world was not large enough to contain all possible manifestations of life and experience, he divided the universe into multiple, parallel realities, and set six magnetic Beams in place to maintain the alignment of time, space, size, and dimension in all of them. Gan sat at the center of the world-web, singing the rocks and mountains and trees into existence, singing the song of the White.
- Source: The Gunslinger Born

In one sense he was not in the Agincourt at all, not in Point Venuti, not in Mendocino County, not in California, not in the American Territories, not in those other Territories; but he was in them, and in an infinite number of other worlds as well, and all at the same time. Nor was he simply in one place in all those worlds; he was in them everywhere because he was those worlds. The Talisman, it seemed, was much more than even his father had believed. It was not just the axle of all possible worlds, but the worlds themselves-the worlds, and the spaces between those worlds.
- Source: The Talisman

"I can't read the future, Fran," Glen said, and in the lamplight his face looked old and worn-the face, perhaps, of a failed magician. "I couldn't even properly see the effect Mother Abagail was having on the community until Stu pointed it out to me that night on Flagstaff Mountain. But I do know this: We're all in this town because of two events. The superflu we can charge off to the stupidity of the human race. It doesn't matter if we did it or the Russians, or the Latvians. Who emptied the beaker loses importance beside the general truth: At the end of all rationalism, the mass grave. The laws of physics, the laws of biology, the axioms of mathematics, they're all part of the deathtrip, because we are what we are. If it hadn't been Captain Trips, it would have been something else. The fashion was to blame it on 'technology,' but `technology' is the trunk of the tree, not the roots. The roots are rationalism, and I would define that word so: `Rationalism is the idea we can ever understand anything about the state of being.' It's a deathtrip. It always has been. So you can charge the superflu off to rationalism if you want. But the other reason we're here is the dreams, and the dreams are irrational. We've agreed not to talk about that simple fact while we're in committee, but we're not in committee now. So I'll say what we all know is true: We're here under the fiat of powers we don't understand. For me, that means we may be beginning to accept-only subconsciously now, and with plenty of slips backward due to culture lag-a different definition of existence. The idea that we can never understand anything about the state of being. And if rationalism is a deathtrip, then irrationalism might very well be a lifetrip . . . at least unless it proves otherwise."
- Source: The Stand

A) The 3rd quote comes from the viewpoint of a mortal; it is not the omniscient view of an author/reader. Plus, this viewpoint would not work with the rest of the setting.
B) Under the Dark Tower's context, "all possible worlds" is just MWI. Modal Realism is the existence of all logically possible worlds. For it to count as Modal Realism, people need to demonstrate that these worlds operate within the margin of logic. It is empty and hollow if there is no further explanation of what these possibilities are. It is strange to see that people use "all possible" stuff as evidence of the Full Mathematical Multiverse/Level 4 Multiverse/All Logical Modalities in 2025-2026.

Because even Tegmark's level 1 and level 3 multiverses have "all possible" stuff:

"According to current theories, processes early in the big bang spread matter around with a degree of randomness, generating all possible arrangements with nonzero probability"
- Source: Max Tegmark's work: Parallel Universes

"QUANTUM MECHANICS PREDICTS a vast number of parallel universes by broadening the concept of "elsewhere." These universes are located elsewhere, not in ordinary space but in an abstract realm of all possible states. Every conceivable way that the world could be (within the scope of quantum mechanics) corresponds to a different universe. The parallel universes make their presence felt in laboratory experiments, such as wave interference and quantum computation."
- Source: Max Tegmark's work: Parallel Universes

"The Nature of Time MOST PEOPLE THINK of time as a way to describe change. At one moment, matter has a certain arrangement; a moment later, it has another(left). The concept of multiverses suggests an alternative view. If parallel universes contain all possible arrangements of matter (right), then time is simply a way to put those universes into a sequence. The universes themselves are static; change is an illusion, albeit an interesting one."
- Source: Max Tegmark's work: Parallel Universes

"If physics is unitary, then the standard picture of how quantum fluctuations operated early in the big bang must change. These fluctuations did not generate initial conditions at random. Rather they generated a quantum superposition of all possible initial conditions, which coexisted simultaneously."
- Source: Max Tegmark's work: Parallel Universes

About "At the end of all rationalism, the mass grave. The laws of physics, the laws of biology, the axioms of mathematics...", again:
This fragment doesn't work as the evidence of a level 4 multiversal scale, because it doesn't work with the rest of the setting:

1) The cosmology can contain only A or only B, where A=the Prim, B=the Tower/the Multiverse. Full A and Full B cannot exist at the same time:

"Before the dawn of time and the formation of the multiverse, there was nothing but the magical Prim, that primordial soup of creation that stretched across all existence like a chaotic ocean. This was the case until Gan, the Spirit of the Dark Tower, emerged from the formless Prim and gave birth to the entire multiverse. As Gan slowly expanded, the Prim receded into nothingness. Soon all that remained of the Prim were the assorted demons stranded on Gan's earth who once called the Prim their home."
- Source: End-World Almanac 01 (2008)

"In the beginning there was only the Prim, the magical soup of creation. From the Prim arose Gan, the spirit of the Dark Tower, who spun the physical universe from his navel. When the magical tide of the Prim had receded from the earth, the Tower and the Beams remained, forming the framework of the time/space continuum. However, the receding Prim also left behind it a flotsam and jetsam of demons and elemental spirits."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Guide to Gilead (2009) (Digital)


"In the beginning, there was nothing but the Prim, the primordial force of chaotic magic which ate away at the nothingness in the universe. Gan, the spirit of the Dark Tower, was the first to erupt from the Prim - and from the ever-growing Gan emerged Mid-World, which eventually broke apart into many parallel worlds spinning around the axle of Gan. As the demon-infested Prim began to recede, many lesser demons became stranded on the shores of the parallel worlds. One of these demons was known as Maerlyn."
- Source: The Dark Tower - Gunslinger's Guidebook (2007) (Digital)

"In those long ago days when the waters of the Prim covered the earth, we fed well."

"But then came our enemy, to disturb our feed."
"Gan hated the rich, unformed waters of the Prim. But most of all, he was jealous of our feeding"
"He wanted to create a new world with new creatures"
"He wanted to usurp our power and become Lord of All"
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 02 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)
In the middle of the transformation from point A to point B, the Prim and our planet Earth even co-existed. It is the evidence that the Prim's conditions are not hostile to normal laws of physics.

2) There are at least 3 known versions of Roland (from about an infinite number of them). The original one from the books, another version from the comics, and the 3rd one from the movie (the Afro American guy). All of them saved the Tower in their storylines. So the Tower cannot be a level 4 multiverse, because it depends on the stuff from below, and even different versions of this stuff. The Dark Tower itself doesn't have qualitative transcendence over historical modalities, lol.
It is possible to create a timeline which will cause the collapse of the Tower... wait, we already have this as a potential future:
In one of the possible (non-existent yet) futures, Monsters of Todash Space/Monsters of the Prim used Sheemie's power to attack the Tower, and the Tower has been successfully destroyed, by the way:
Scans: #1, #2, #3, #4.
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - Sheemie's Tale 02 (of 02) (2013) (Digital)
Conclusion: The Dark Tower cosmology doesn't contain all mathematical/logical possibilities. Otherwise, it should contain storylines where the Tower itself has been destroyed, and it doesn't work with the rest of the system.

3) Extra argument: the Dark Tower doesn't contain "all possible worlds", because, otherwise, it would contain the mirror's "fake" worlds + "infected" worlds + normal worlds since the very start of the multiverse:

"In the mirror's polished silver surface, good appeared ugly while evil seemed handsome. Not only did the mirror make all reflections of the White appear hideous and stupid, but it also made them seem ridiculous. In fact, the stronger the power of the White that it faced, the funnier the mirror found it and the louder it laughed. Eager to test the effectiveness of his new creation, Maerlyn called together all the evil imps coughed up by the Outer Dark. Telling these lesser demons of the Prim that he had made them a gift, Maerlyn unveiled his mirror. Oohing and ahhing in surprised delight, the ugly succubi, housies, and illsicks pirouetted before the glass, admiring their own false beauty. In fact, they were so fooled by Maerlyn's magic that they proclaimed the wizard to be king of creation and swore to obey him for eternity. Grinning widely, Maerlyn made his first kingly command. He ordered the imps to lift up his mirror and to carry it to the Dark Tower. It was time for Gan to see himself for the fool he truly was."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 04 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

But now the Tower contains only "infected" versions of the worlds:

"Though not even Maerlyn had expected it, every particle of his laughing mirror contained the concentrated evil of the whole. Hence anything they penetrated became infected by the mirror's vision. Though Gan had created his world as a place of good, he had not protected it against wickedness. So like a disease, wickedness spread. The shards of Maerlyn's laughing mirror blew into every possible future of every new world until no land was left uninfected. And of all the creatures tainted by Maerlyn's magic, none suffered so greatly as human beings. In some futures, the sharp microscopic particles flew into people's eyes, perverting their vision so greatly that they could only perceive the corrupt, the cruel, and the hateful as beautiful. But worse yet were the fates of those men and women whose hearts were pierced, since never again could they feel the emotions of love and joy, compassion or regret."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 04 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

"After Maerlyn's attack, Gan selected his twelve most loyal servants — Bear and Turtle, Dog and Horse, Eagle and Lion, Elephant and Wolf, Fish and Rat, Hare and Bat—to guard the termination points of the magnetic beams which were simultaneously the major doorways into and out of the multiple worlds. But not even the Guardians could undo what had been done. In the end, Maerlyn got his wish. The evil of the Outer Dark tainted each of the worlds, and the bright light of the White was dimmed in all of them."
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger Born 04 (of 07) (2007) (Digital)

Thus, in order to prove my Tier 0 as a whole, I will have to prove that:

The incomprehensibility of my character does not come from an inferior intellect—such as a four-dimensional square being incomprehensible to three-dimensional beings—but is incomprehensible in its very nature, namely:

The incomprehension of the character must be correlated with its power and its magnitude; it must also be. It must furthermore transcend the entirety of the qualities of the intellectual object. It would therefore not be hyperboles, but serious affirmations regarding its ontology.

Moreover, the statements of this character must be a duality, a comparison—this is the principle of “he is not” rather than “he is.” Statements beyond that should be considered exaggerations, but they will in no way hinder the scaling of the character.

Your scans are not English.
Anyway, I'm familiar with these interpretations, and these interpretations are simply wrong.

EVERYTHING: HIGH OUTER INFINITE LAYERS (LOW BALLED)
IT: H1A+ T2
THE OTHER: TIER 0

No, not at all. Provide scans or concede.

any objections? Add me on discord.
oxonom.

Discord is not well-suited for debates with huge textual messages.
Let's continue the debates here, if you want.

 

[Hecky2222]

You should have just collected them in sandbox as other users told if this isn't CRT and just general collection

By collecting them there in "General Discussion" you already naked your arguments tbf.

 

[Jockey-1337]

This post has been updated. I added this element:

The Macroverse is a part of the Tower, and the destruction of the Tower will destroy the Macroverse as well:

BREAKERS (BEAM BREAKERS)
The Breakers of THUNDERCLAP are both the prisoners and the servants of the CRIMSON KING. Imprisoned in the DEVAR-TOI, located in the poisoned land of END-WORLD, they use their psychic abilities to weaken the BEAMS, which hold the DARK TOWER in place. Although few (if any) of the Breakers willingly undertook the job of destroying the macroverse, few of them complain once they experience the diverse pleasures available beneath the Devar’s artificial sun.
- Source: The Dark Tower Glossary

THUNDERCLAP
In Wizard and Glass we learn that the fey realm of Thunderclap sits on the lip of END-WORLD. In Wolves of the Calla, we discover that the dark land of Thunderclap sits just east of the BORDERLANDS, which in turn sit on the eastern edge of MID-WORLD-that was. Thunderclap is the home of the DEVAR-TOI, or Big Prison, where the CRIMSON KING keeps the psychic BREAKERS. The Breakers (who are human) are forced to use their wild talents to erode the BEAMS so that the foundering DARK TOWER will collapse, causing the macroverse to blink out of existence.
- Source: The Dark Tower Glossary

You should have just collected them in sandbox as other users told if this isn't CRT and just general collection

By collecting them there in "General Discussion" you already naked your arguments tbf.

If you made a Blog already then link that instead and ask people whether the arguments makes sense

Go through it slowly and disect any weaker points

You should have made a blog and put all of this in your blog.
Cause 6 comments, looks like a mess and no one wants to scroll like that. It's messy
Having everything in one blog looks more readable

First, you should click on a page which is not view source. Second, you click on the edit button and you can edit whatever you want.

For the sandbox you should do like this:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Jockey-1337/Sandbox Click create and b\put all your information here

The wiki blogs are not as flexible and convenient as forum threads. They are not good for huge debates and discussions with a lot of text/quotes/scans and so on.

By collecting them there in "General Discussion" you already naked your arguments tbf.

I want to "evolve" my collection in debates. It should be battle-hardened.

Moreover:

 

[Hecky2222]

This post has been updated. I added this element:

The Macroverse is a part of the Tower, and the destruction of the Tower will destroy the Macroverse as well:

BREAKERS (BEAM BREAKERS)
The Breakers of THUNDERCLAP are both the prisoners and the servants of the CRIMSON KING. Imprisoned in the DEVAR-TOI, located in the poisoned land of END-WORLD, they use their psychic abilities to weaken the BEAMS, which hold the DARK TOWER in place. Although few (if any) of the Breakers willingly undertook the job of destroying the macroverse, few of them complain once they experience the diverse pleasures available beneath the Devar’s artificial sun.
- Source: The Dark Tower Glossary

THUNDERCLAP
In Wizard and Glass we learn that the fey realm of Thunderclap sits on the lip of END-WORLD. In Wolves of the Calla, we discover that the dark land of Thunderclap sits just east of the BORDERLANDS, which in turn sit on the eastern edge of MID-WORLD-that was. Thunderclap is the home of the DEVAR-TOI, or Big Prison, where the CRIMSON KING keeps the psychic BREAKERS. The Breakers (who are human) are forced to use their wild talents to erode the BEAMS so that the foundering DARK TOWER will collapse, causing the macroverse to blink out of existence.
- Source: The Dark Tower Glossary








The wiki blogs are not as flexible and convenient as forum threads. They are not good for huge debates and discussions with a lot of text/quotes/scans and so on.



I want to "evolve" my collection in debates. It should be battle-hardened.

Moreover:

What a chad.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

 

[Hecky2222]

Why this was moved to CRT when OP stated he is just preparing args bruh

Agree FRA

 

[Vyfourthaccount]

imagine using the movie mist as evidence

 

[SuperNova55555]

Thread of doom

 

[TomTaylorTheMessiah]

Cependant, VSBW note que le niveau 0 ne requiert pas la preuve de tous les prérequis.

Not true, anyways, distinctionless nature is required for Tier 0:

Omnipotence;

Supraessential Existence: As it transcends all divisions and inequalities that qualify any given object as "This, not that" or "That, not this," a Tier 0 has no borders or outlines that delimit its existence, and in being totally unlimited, it thus exists as no particular thing whatsoever. Consequently, it has no soul or mind, exemplifies no universal, has no information defining it, nor is subject to any other metaphysical aspect.

I remembered when we argued on discord on this. Your main argument for TIer 0 is Gan transcending the conditions for High 1-A+, because tier 0 is, according to you, defined as purely the first sentence of the tier 0 tier. Any mod/member knowledgeable on the topic of tier 0 could tell you what the qualifications of said tier.


Another thing:

"these possibilities have a cardinality of | ℂ |"

"prove that there concretely exists an infinity of worlds, such that my infinity (א⁰) excludes no possibility; I therefore assume that |W| = א0"

Completely absurd. The cardinality of all possible worlds is Aleph 0 and the cardinality of the complex numbers at the same time? Either way, I don't really understand how Lewis gets you to that cardinality anyways. About Lewis, he was a 4-dimensionalist, and every world is a space-time continuum(and bounded by dimensions):

• Possible worlds are unified by the spatiotemporal interrelations of their parts; every world is spatiotemporally isolated from every other world.

David Lewis and other four-dimensionalists argue that the best response is to treat the apparently incompatible properties as belonging to different temporal parts of a four-dimensional object, much as spatially separated parts of an object can have different shapes. On this view, the persisting object has temporal parts that are spherical and cubical, and there is no single thing that must be both at once.

They might be four-dimensional; they might have no boundaries; there might be littleor no causal interaction between them. Indeed, each of these world-likeparts of one big world might be a duplicate of some genuinely completeworld. There are at least four ways for one big world to contain manyworld-like parts. Each is a way that a world could be; and so, say I, eachis a way that some world is.

Not smart to use Lewis when the possible worlds within his own philosophy is bounded by space.

On the thread, I agree with demoting the verse to atleast Low 1-A. Im neutral on the 2-A, 2-C thingies.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Why this was moved to CRT when OP stated he is just preparing args bruh

It is not a CRT yet; it is a collection of arguments for future CRTs
Somebody moved my thread from General Discussions to Content Revisions, so it is a CRT now.

Agree FRA

VOTES:

Agree:
1) Hecky2222 (here);

Disagree:
1) Oxonom2962 (here);

imagine using the movie mist as evidence

Movies are canon, as well as comics:

"The Dark Tower contains many levels, and within those levels are parallel words which mirror each other, but which are not exactly alike. I always view the Dark Tower comics as existing in one of these parallel worlds. If the Dark Tower novels exist in Tower Keystone, or the central world of the Dark Tower universe, then the Dark Tower comics exist in a spinoff world, one which is very similar to, but not exactly the same as, the one where The Gunslinger, The Drawing of the Three, The Waste Lands, Wizard and Glass, and the rest of the Dark Tower novels take place. When you think about it, this idea of parallel worlds isn't so different from contemporary theories in quantum physics. According to these theories, every time we make a decision and follow a certain path in life, another reality is born where we make a different decision and follow a different life path. For example, imagine that you are walking down the street. You come to a crossroad. You have a decision to make - you can either turn left and go home or you can turn right and go to the shop and buy a lottery ticket. You tell yourself that buying a lottery ticket is stupid, so you go home and take a nap. However in a parallel reality, a different version of you turned right and bought a lottery ticket...and won! (But don't be too sad that in this where and when you didn't buy that lottery ticket. On another level of the Tower, you were hit by a van before you even reached the store.)"
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Man in Black 01 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)

 

[Re5yh]

Yeah, I actually disagree

 

[Vyfourthaccount]

It is not a CRT yet; it is a collection of arguments for future CRTs
Somebody moved my thread from General Discussions to Content Revisions, so it is a CRT now.




VOTES:

Agree:
1) Hecky2222 (here);

Disagree:
1) Oxonom2962 (here);



Movies are canon, as well as comics:

"The Dark Tower contains many levels, and within those levels are parallel words which mirror each other, but which are not exactly alike. I always view the Dark Tower comics as existing in one of these parallel worlds. If the Dark Tower novels exist in Tower Keystone, or the central world of the Dark Tower universe, then the Dark Tower comics exist in a spinoff world, one which is very similar to, but not exactly the same as, the one where The Gunslinger, The Drawing of the Three, The Waste Lands, Wizard and Glass, and the rest of the Dark Tower novels take place. When you think about it, this idea of parallel worlds isn't so different from contemporary theories in quantum physics. According to these theories, every time we make a decision and follow a certain path in life, another reality is born where we make a different decision and follow a different life path. For example, imagine that you are walking down the street. You come to a crossroad. You have a decision to make - you can either turn left and go home or you can turn right and go to the shop and buy a lottery ticket. You tell yourself that buying a lottery ticket is stupid, so you go home and take a nap. However in a parallel reality, a different version of you turned right and bought a lottery ticket...and won! (But don't be too sad that in this where and when you didn't buy that lottery ticket. On another level of the Tower, you were hit by a van before you even reached the store.)"
- Source: The Dark Tower - The Gunslinger - The Man in Black 01 (of 05) (2012) (Digital)

This only means comics are canon not movies. You'd have to prove it means movies as well otherwise if you just want to baseless assume it means movies as well then it'd fall under a hitchens razor

 

[Jockey-1337]

On the thread, I agree with demoting the verse to atleast Low 1-A. Im neutral on the 2-A, 2-C thingies.

Even if we accept the "Universe> Grain of sand > Universe > Grain of sand" as a true (ignoring the true nature of the Man in Black), the verse should be 1-B at best, it has 600 floors or something like that:

"The Dark Tower itself features narrow, slit windows which emit an eldritch blue glow and ascend the building in a gradual upward spiral nearly 600 feet into the sky. Each of its twisting stairways leads to a different level of creation, including distant time periods and alternate realities. At the top of the Tower is an oriel window consisting of twelve colors..."
- Source: End-World Almanac 01 (2008)

The thread is about 2-A and 2-C ratings. If you are neutral about this, I cannot add the vote.

This only means comics are canon not movies. You'd have to prove it means movies as well otherwise if you just want to baseless assume it means movies as well then it'd fall under a hitchens razor

Movies are still part of Stephen King's omniverse. Especially if it has "all possible" worlds within its cosmology.
And anyway, I use movies as extra stuff. All of my main arguments come from books and comics.

Yeah, I actually disagree

Care to elaborate?
Vote added, anyway, updated list:

Agree:
1) Hecky2222 (here);

Disagree:
1) Oxonom2962 (here);
2) Re5yh (here);

 

[Vyfourthaccount]

Even if we accept the "Universe> Grain of sand > Universe > Grain of sand" as a true (ignoring the true nature of the Man in Black), the verse should be 1-B at best, it has 600 floors or something like that:

"The Dark Tower itself features narrow, slit windows which emit an eldritch blue glow and ascend the building in a gradual upward spiral nearly 600 feet into the sky. Each of its twisting stairways leads to a different level of creation, including distant time periods and alternate realities. At the top of the Tower is an oriel window consisting of twelve colors..."
- Source: End-World Almanac 01 (2008)

The thread is about 2-A and 2-C ratings. If you are neutral about this, I cannot add the vote.



Movies are still part of Stephen King's omniverse. Especially if it has "all possible" worlds within its cosmology.
And anyway, I use movies as extra stuff. All of my main arguments come from books and comics.



Care to elaborate?
Vote added, anyway, updated list:

Agree:
1) Hecky2222 (here);

Disagree:
1) Oxonom2962 (here);
2) Re5yh (here);

Just because there's some mention about the verse having all possible worlds doesn't mean that movies are canon. Unless you're fine with arguing marvel and DC as part of dark tower universe. Again provide actual evidence that movies are canon

 

[Vyfourthaccount]

Just because there's some mention about the verse having all possible worlds doesn't mean that movies are canon. Unless you're fine with arguing marvel and DC as part of dark tower universe. Again provide actual evidence that movies are canon

Also why try to use that as evidence if you were trying to debunk it? It makes no logical sense

 

[Jockey-1337]

Just because there's some mention about the verse having all possible worlds doesn't mean that movies are canon. Unless you're fine with arguing marvel and DC as part of dark tower universe. Again provide actual evidence that movies are canon

Marvel and DC are not part of the Dark Tower, because of copyright.

However, the Mist Movie is non-canon to the original Book, but it is a part of Stephen King's creation; The Dark Tower is an omniverse of the same author.

Also why try to use that as evidence if you were trying to debunk it? It makes no logical sense

"All possible worlds" in one setting can be different from "all possible worlds" of a different setting. Everything depends on the context.

In Tegmark's cosmological theory, level 1 and level 3 multiverses also have "all possibilities" in their degree of freedom:

Because even Tegmark's level 1 and level 3 multiverses have "all possible" stuff:

"According to current theories, processes early in the big bang spread matter around with a degree of randomness, generating all possible arrangements with nonzero probability"
- Source: Max Tegmark's work: Parallel Universes

"QUANTUM MECHANICS PREDICTS a vast number of parallel universes by broadening the concept of "elsewhere." These universes are located elsewhere, not in ordinary space but in an abstract realm of all possible states. Every conceivable way that the world could be (within the scope of quantum mechanics) corresponds to a different universe. The parallel universes make their presence felt in laboratory experiments, such as wave interference and quantum computation."
- Source: Max Tegmark's work: Parallel Universes

"The Nature of Time MOST PEOPLE THINK of time as a way to describe change. At one moment, matter has a certain arrangement; a moment later, it has another(left). The concept of multiverses suggests an alternative view. If parallel universes contain all possible arrangements of matter (right), then time is simply a way to put those universes into a sequence. The universes themselves are static; change is an illusion, albeit an interesting one."
- Source: Max Tegmark's work: Parallel Universes

"If physics is unitary, then the standard picture of how quantum fluctuations operated early in the big bang must change. These fluctuations did not generate initial conditions at random. Rather they generated a quantum superposition of all possible initial conditions, which coexisted simultaneously."
- Source: Max Tegmark's work: Parallel Universes

And there is level 4 mv in Tegmark's structure, which is the biggest structure.

 

[Re5yh]

Care to elaborate?

Maybe you should use the scans from the Original Steven King novels of Dark Tower, not just the comics. The Dark Tower series has about 8 books + IT (written in 1986)

 

[Jockey-1337]

Maybe you should use the scans from the Original Steven King novels of Dark Tower, not just the comics. The Dark Tower series has about 8 books + IT (written in 1986)

I used some stuff from the books as well. This is one of the key arguments:

7.3. Myth: Higher dimensions.
In fact, the "Grain of sand > Universe > Grain of sand > Universe..." stuff comes from the mouth of the Man in Black, who is a minion (and the "primary operative") of "the king of lies", so we don't have to trust what he said:


The universe (he said) is the Great All, and offers a paradox too great for the finite mind to grasp. As the living brain cannot conceive of a non-living brain - although it may think it can - the finite mind cannot grasp the infinite.

The prosaic fact of the universe's existence alone defeats both the pragmatic and the romantic. There was a time, yet a hundred generations before the world moved on, when mankind had achieved enough technical and scientific prowess to chip a few splinters from the great stone pillar of reality. Even so, the false light of science (knowledge, if you like) shone in only a few developed countries. One company (or cabal) led the way in this regard: North Central Positronics, it called itself. Yet, despite a tremendous increase in available facts, there were remarkably few insights.

"Gunslinger, our many-times-great grandfathers conquered the-disease-which-rots, which they called cancer, almost conquered aging, walked on the moon - "

"I don't believe that," the gunslinger said flatly.

To this, the man in black merely smiled and answered, "You needn't. Yet it was so. They made or discovered a hundred other marvelous baubles. But this wealth of infomation produced little or no insight. There were no great odes written to the wonders of artificial insemination - having babies from frozen mansperm - or to the cars that ran on power of the sun. Few if any seemed to have grasped the truest principle of reality: new knowledge leads to yet more awesome mysteries. Greater physiological knowledge of the brain makes the existence of the soul less possible yet more probable by the nature of the search. Do you see? Of course you don't. You've reached the limits of your ability to comprehend. But nevermind - that's beside the point."

"What is the point then?"

"The greatest mystery the universe offers is not life but size. Size encompasses life, and the Tower encompasses size. The child, who is most at home with wonder, says: Daddy, what is above the sky? And the father says: The darkness of space. The child: What is beyond space? The father: The galaxy. The child: Beyond the galaxy? The father: Another galaxy. The child: Beyond the other galaxies? The father: No one knows.

"You see? Size defeats us. For the fish, the lake in which he lives is the universe. What does the fish think when he is jerked up by the mouth through the silver limits of existence and into a new universe where the air drowns him and the light is blue madness? Where huge bipeds with no gills stuff it into a suffocating box abd cover it with wet weeds to die?

"Or one might take the tip of the pencil and magnify it. One reaches the point where a stunning realization strikes home: The pencil tip is not solid; it is composed of atoms which whirl and revolve like a trillion demon planets. What seems solid to us is actually only a loose net held together by gravity. Viewed at their actual size, the distances between these atoms might become league, gulfs, aeons. The atoms themselves are composed of nuclei and revolving protons and electrons. One may step down further to subatomic particles. And then to what? Tachyons? Nothing? Of course not. Everything in the universe denies nothing; to suggest an ending is the one absurdity.

"If you fell outward to the limit of the universe, would you find a board fence and signs reading DEAD END? No. You might find something hard and rounded, as the chick must see the egg from the inside. And if you should peck through the shell (or find a door), what great and torrential light might shine through your opening at the end of space? Might you look through and discover our entire universe is but part of one atom on a blade of grass? Might you be forced to think that by burning a twig you incinerate an eternity of eternities? That existence rises not to one infinite but to an infinity of them?

"Perhaps you saw what place our universe plays in the scheme of things - as no more than an atom in a blade of grass. Could it be that everything we can perceive, from the microscopic virus to the distant Horsehead Nebula, is contained in one blade of grass that may have existed for only a single season in an alien time-flow? What if that blade should be cut off by a scythe? When it begins to die, would the rot seep into our universe and our own lives, turning everthing yellow and brown and desiccated? Perhaps it's already begun to happen. We say the world has moved on; maybe we really mean that it has begun to dry up.

"Think how small such a concept of things make us, gunslinger! If a God watches over it all, does He actually mete out justice for such a race of gnats? Does His eye see the sparrow fall when the sparrow is less than a speck of hydrogen floating disconnected in the depth of space? And if He does see... what must the nature of such a God be? Where does He live? How is it possible to live beyond infinity?

"Imagine the sand of the Mohaine Desert, which you crossed to find me, and imagine a trillion universes - not worlds but universes - encapsulated in each grain of that desert; and within each universe an infinity of others. We tower over these universes from our pitiful grass vantage point; with one swing of your boot you may knock a billion billion worlds flying off into darkness, a chain never to be completed.

"Size, gunslinger... size.

"Yet suppose further. Suppose that all worlds, all universes, met at a single nexus, a single pylon, a Tower. And within it, a stairway, perhaps rising to the Godhead itself. Would you dare climb to the top, gunslinger? Could it be that somewhere above all of endless reality, there exists a room?...

"You dare not."

And in the gunslinger's mind, those words echoed: You dare not.

- Source: The Gunslinger

 

[Jockey-1337]

IT (written in 1986)

+ It novel:

"What are you?"
"I'm the Turtle, son. I made the universe, but please don't blame me for it; I had a bellyache."
"Help me! Please help me!"
"I take no stand in these matters. My brother — has his own place in the macroverse; energy is eternal, as even a child such as yourself must understand."
- Source: It (novel)

"Your friend the Turtle... he died a few years ago. The old idiot puked inside his shell and choked to death on a galaxy or two. very sad, don't you think? but also quite bizarre, deserves a place in Ripley's Believe It or Not, that's what I think, happened right around the same time you had that writer's block, you must have felt him go, Little Buddy."
- Source: It (novel)

"The Turtle spoke in Bill's head, and Bill understood somehow that there was yet Another, and that Final Other dwelt in a void beyond this one. This Final Other was, perhaps, the creator of the Turtle, which only watched, and It, which only ate. This Other was a force beyond the universe, a power beyond all other power, the author of all there was."
- Source: It (novel)

"Suddenly he thought he understood: It meant to thrust him through some wall at the end of the universe and into some other place (what that old Turtle called the macroverse) where It really lived; where It existed as a titanic, glowing core which might be no more than the smallest mote in that Other's mind; he would see It naked, a thing of unshaped destroying light, and there he would either be mercifully annihilated or live forever, insane and yet conscious inside Its homicidal endless formless hungry being."
- Source: It (novel)