Dragon Ball: Low 1-C Neutral Space

[Azertyhuuh]

I'm ngl
(Tho I changed my answer to neutral on both)
Why are you attacking him over a picture? That's low and not cool.

Hey man, I’m just joking with him, that’s all. Someone posts, and you guys attack them over the smallest things. Someone laughs, jokes, and you make them out to be bad and everything.

 

[Shadow7001]

I never said bad faith. Assuming I think OP did anything intentionally is an accusation in and of itself of bad faith. The way you're framing the OP would imply such facts though, fortunately, you aren't Op so I'm not sure why you're speaking for them to begin with.
It could be completely accidental. This does not change what it is though, the fact arguments and points rely on it, and a slew of various other facets.

You can call it a molehill, but a molehill still exists does it not?
Faulty evidence and contradictory proof is still faulty and contradictory. And when a major part of it is proving the relation between in scope, and they're literally the only verifiable proof we have. To ignore them completely is to basically hinge the entire thread on a maybe.

Dude I talked to the OP about this before the thread was made, that's how I know. But regardless, can we calm down now here? You voiced your concern that you think some scans are misleading, fine, let OP get back and they'll address it and then if you think the argument no longer stands, you can say that and so on. There's no need for aggression (not singling you out here) by anyone.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Hey man, I’m just joking with him, that’s all. Someone posts, and you guys attack them over the smallest things. Someone laughs, jokes, and you make them out to be bad and everything.

That was a joke? That didn't look like one.. but ok, I guess it can slide

 

[Qawsedf234]

Does that mean agreeing?

Lmao

What rule is this breaking?

The OP in the last thread that they made used the following claims:

1. The timeline is still Low 1-C but have total of 6 dimensions, with 5 tiered dimensions (Low 1-C) + 1 untierable dimension

Note: Simply having extra-dimensions doesn't mean you can get an upgrade in tier, so please do not argue about it. This CRT is simply for upgrading Extradimensional Range and HDE, not a 1-C DB CRT, so please stay on topic and do not derail it; thanks

That's why Chariot said the following:

Do not forget we have a very explicit rule about not hiding changes that would effect scaling.
If this effects anyone or anything (in ways not presented here), you have to say it upfront. See the LAST HDE DBZ THREAD for this rule being brought up.

So unfortunately, if it effects shit, you say it here and now, not later.

Fundamentally, this would read as a stealth upgrade done by @Vietthai96 in an attempt to get a less controversial thread topic (Range) through and then use that thread as an anchor to then push through a more controversial or difficult upgrade (a direct AP upgrade). Something that has happened within this franchise before.

Having said all that

Oh wow this sure doesn't ring a bell from last time.
I wonder how many rules this is breaking? Has to be at least a few dozen right?

This is not a case of a stealth upgrade, as that requires that the user knew what they were doing before hand and was seeking to push for a later upgrade. @Vietthai96 legitimately just did not understand the tiering system regarding how a temporal axis works in the last thread (despite me explaining it to them), and no other moderator commented on it for some reason. Viet after the thread, since they didn't get my explanation, contacted me and asked for further clarification about my points, as they didn't understand them.

After talking with them for a day or two, they realized they misunderstood how temporal dimensions worked, and the last thread didn't meet the wiki cosmology principles. Which is why they made this thread so soon after the last one.

For the thread itself the proposal is the following:

• Neutral Space is a container for 4th Dimensional structures
• Neutral Space has an independent time axis
• The two axis together make a Timeline 6-D

I think the OP provides evidence for all these points, and I'm fine with the 6D cosmology at face value, but the range CRT should never have been passed because it just legitimately doesn't make sense.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Tf you mean you've never seen a rule like that? The wiki has to be consistent.

• Cherry-picking / selective evidence: you use only the parts of evidence that help one claim, while ignoring parts that undermine a diff one (or even undermine the first one).
• Special pleading: you accept evidence when it supports your point, but go "nuh uh" or some different standard when the same evidence would hurt another point you also want.
• Inconsistent standards / double standard: you treat the same kind of evidence as "good enough" in one spot, but “not good enough” elsewhere, purely because it would force an unwanted conclusion.
• Suppressed evidence: you present evidence while leaving out relevant contradictory portions or info that would screw something else you want which would change how it should be interpreted.
• Confirmation bias: ya'll focus on what confirms what you want and discount what conflicts with it.

All at the same time. You really telling me you haven't been on wiki long enough to know that you're not allowed to cherry pick selective evidence?

Are those your arguments? Trying to force this on OP is too much. At least add decent arguments instead of trying to impose random rules out of nowhere on crt, man.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

I don't understand why we can't act like civil humans in these threads. Why must every thread devolve into bullshit rhetoric, chest-thumping, ego-tripping and threats? Seriously, why??

Because it’s about Dragon Ball upgrades, and by the way, it’s not just Dragon Ball, but mostly Dragon Ball. Everyone is just waiting for a chance to criticize, attack, threaten someone, and tell them you’re this, you’re that. No one focuses only on themselves and the topic itself without going off track. That’s how people are. Ever since I joined here, I haven’t gone reporting anyone, even though I’ve been subjected to many insults, all kinds of insults, and mockery. Yet I haven’t reported or insulted anyone, while they are always waiting for any chance to take you down.

 

[Dark_Soul20189]

Because it’s about Dragon Ball upgrades, and by the way, it’s not just Dragon Ball, but mostly Dragon Ball. Everyone is just waiting for a chance to criticize, attack, threaten someone, and tell them you’re this, you’re that. No one focuses only on themselves and the topic itself without going off track. That’s how people are. Ever since I joined here, I haven’t gone reporting anyone, even though I’ve been subjected to many insults, all kinds of insults, and mockery. Yet I haven’t reported or insulted anyone, while they are always waiting for any chance to take you down.

The reason in your picture

 

[Qawsedf234]

Also, everyone, stop commenting on Chariot or to Chariot. You all do this every thread and make it virtually unreadable, which directly leads to no mod wanting to comment on it. If this doesn't stop, I'll just thread-ban users for the time being. If you want to make an actual constructive comment, do so. But if your response isn't constructive, don't make it; it's just actively detrimental to the topic.

 

[Shadow7001]

Guys I'm begging ya'll. No more unnecessary posts, antagonizing someone or anything that doesn't have to do with Dragon Ball and this CRT specifically. Please. This shouldn't be a tough ask, both supporters and non-supporters. Please.

EDIT: This is before I read Qawsedf's post, but yeah what he said.

 

[Chariot190]

Dude I talked to the OP about this before the thread was made, that's how I know. But regardless, can we calm down now here? You voiced your concern that you think some scans are misleading, fine, let OP get back and they'll address it and then if you think the argument no longer stands, you can say that and so on. There's no need for aggression (not singling you out here) by anyone.

It wasn't aggression, being blunt and calling shit out is not that, it's kind of personal now though given being called out for not writing a huge wall breaking things down the instant I wake is legitimately absurd, as if ya'll don't literally know I will if given the chance, and that making me disagreement clear and why I will end up doing so beforehand is somehow "refusing to argue" or whatever.
But that's besides the point.
Also why would you admit to that? You just confirmed OP KNEW this and didn't opt to disclaim it in the OP anywhere. Which is very much not ok if what you're saying is true in how they knew, as the OP doesn't do what you're saying they thought, they frame it as hard literal evidence without anything of it being a mere abstracted example. Even leaning on it in the section where they describe the Super Shenron scene as being literally there.

And nah dude it's even worse, I'm going through the the cosmology page right now just to double check and I'm already seeing straight up mistranslations for ffs in some of the scans.
This might not be a reply, this might be a whole CRT given it's now extending past just funny uni depictions. Idk, ig we'll see how much there actually is, I'm still reading.

Lmao

The OP in the last thread that they made used the following claims:


That's why Chariot said the following:

Fundamentally, this would read as a stealth upgrade done by @Vietthai96 in an attempt to get a less controversial thread topic (Range) through and then use that thread as an anchor to then push through a more controversial or difficult upgrade (a direct AP upgrade). Something that has happened within this franchise before.

Having said all that

This is not a case of a stealth upgrade, as that requires that the user knew what they were doing before hand and was seeking to push for a later upgrade. @Vietthai96 legitimately just did not understand the tiering system regarding how a temporal axis works in the last thread (despite me explaining it to them), and no other moderator commented on it for some reason. Viet after the thread, since they didn't get my explanation, contacted me and asked for further clarification about my points, as they didn't understand them.

After talking with them for a day or two, they realized they misunderstood how temporal dimensions worked, and the last thread didn't meet the wiki cosmology principles. Which is why they made this thread so soon after the last one.

For the thread itself the proposal is the following:

• Neutral Space is a container for 4th Dimensional structures
• Neutral Space has an independent time axis
• The two axis together make a Timeline 6-D

I think the OP provides evidence for all these points, and I'm fine with the 6D cosmology at face value, but the range CRT should never have been passed because it just legitimately doesn't make sense.

Actually, I was thinking further back, talking about a thread from last year I think about the uni scope? These scans if used, in turn would downgrade the individual universes, they can not co-exist without the other to force an upgrade on one aspect, but ignore the consequential downgrade on the other. It's blatant cherry picking on usage so like, yeah guess I'll be yappin about that here in a bit and why

 

[Reiner04]

Ig 6D Timeline works because of neutral space having independent time axis. Also chill and focus on the current topic.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Actually, I was thinking further back, talking about a thread from last year I think about the uni scope? These scans if used, in turn would downgrade the individual universes, they can not co-exist without the other to force an upgrade on one aspect, but ignore the consequential downgrade on the other. It's blatant cherry picking on usage so like, yeah guess I'll be yappin about that here in a bit and why

Sure, I can wait for your comment if you believe the evidence given by the OP doesn't work for a 1-C upgrade. But if it's specifically about the universe balls, you would have to show that they're not 4D for the OP to be wrong about the Neutral Zone/Time Axis stuff.

 

[Reiner04]

Sure, I can wait for your comment if you believe the evidence given by the OP doesn't work for a 1-C upgrade. But if it's specifically about the universe balls, you would have to show that they're not 4D for the OP to be wrong about the Neutral Zone/Time Axis stuff.

I don't think a single thread should be covering so many disparate topics, especially by the third page. If what needs to be proved to defeat the OP arguement us that the universes are only 3D, then it deviates entirely from the current topic and will make the thread hard to read with so many different topics going on together. Not to mention that will also be an attempt to redefining the entire cosmology from its very roots which, imo, requires its own dedicated thread rather than this one.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't think a single thread should be covering so many disparate topics, especially by the third page. If what needs to be proved to defeat the OP arguement us that the universes are only 3D, then it deviates entirely from the current topic and will make the thread hard to read with so many different topics going on together. Not to mention that will also be an attempt to redefining the entire cosmology from its very roots which, imo, requires its own dedicated thread rather than this one.

You'd be right if Chariot is proposing a counter-CRT as a thread topic. Their point, to my reading, will be saying that the OP is wrong in X aspects so this upgrade is an invalid argument for 1-C. A separate CRT is not required for that argument to work. Or to say it in a less weird way, Chariot can argue the OP is wrong without invalidating the cosmology blog within the same CRT.

An attempt to change the cosmology directly, however, would require a different CRT and would be better suited to a staff thread to avoid a peanut gallery forming.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

I don't think a single thread should be covering so many disparate topics, especially by the third page. If what needs to be proved to defeat the OP arguement us that the universes are only 3D, then it deviates entirely from the current topic and will make the thread hard to read with so many different topics going on together. Not to mention that will also be an attempt to redefining the entire cosmology from its very roots which, imo, requires its own dedicated thread rather than this one.

If their only way to refute the thread creator’s argument is to prove that the universes are three-dimensional, then I personally say that this is impossible, and even with a miracle—no, with miracles—it would not happen, because the universes are four-dimensional and may even be more than that, containing within them multiple separate spacetime continua inside the greater universe. Therefore, I personally say that this topic will be approved.

 

[Thermor]

I want to comment something.

Is the main argument for neutral zone having a temporal dimension is because Hit uses his time skip ability there? Can't it be just that perhaps the angels uses their powers to grant time in a small area instead of the neutral zone itself having it? We saw that Hit's time skip works in the world of void which is directly stated to have no time there. Not disagreeing but would like my point addressed.

 

[Shadow7001]

I want to comment something.

Is the main argument for neutral zone having a temporal dimension is because Hit uses his time skip ability there? Can't it be just that perhaps the angels uses their powers to grant time in a small area instead of the neutral zone itself having it? We also saw that Hit's time skip works in the world of void which is directly stated to have no time there. Not disagreeing but would like my point addressed first.

To my knowledge and understanding, the Angels haven't demonstrated such an ability before barring maybe the Grand Priest (but even that's a little weird given how WoV works), nor was it stated that they ever did such a thing in the Neutral Zone.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Azer always getting bullied regarding the CRT lmafo

anyways, I have a question: does goku and jiren also get an upgrade or are they saying the same as always?

 

[Thermor]

To my knowledge and understanding, the Angels haven't demonstrated such an ability before barring maybe the Grand Priest (but even that's a little weird given how WoV works), nor was it stated that they ever did such a thing in the Neutral Zone.

Hit being able to use his time skip ability in a place directly stated to have no time is my biggest concern as it's the main evidence used for neutral zone having their own temporal dimension. Considering all angels are accepted to be able to manipulate time up to the hypertimeline level, the angels that hosted the tournament at the neutral zone can simply do the same thing as the Grand Priest (which is granting time in a pocket area).

 

[TiltedFN]

Azer always getting bullied regarding the CRT lmafo

anyways, I have a question: does goku and jiren also get an upgrade or are they saying the same as always?

No. Read the CRT. That has all the changes if the CRT is accepted.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

No. Read the CRT. That has all the changes if the CRT is accepted.

thx

 

[TiltedFN]

Hit being able to use his time skip ability in a place directly stated to have no time is my biggest concern as it's the main evidence used for neutral zone having their own temporal dimension. Considering all angels are accepted to be able to manipulate time up to the hypertimeline level, the angels that hosted the tournament at the neutral zone can simply do the same thing as the Grand Priest (which is granting time in a pocket area).

Angels have never been shown to do that. Why does it matter that the Angels hosted the tournament on the neutral zone? All they did was transport them there and make the arena. They also did things like repair the fighting stage, among other things. They don't need to add time there. You need to prove a claim such as this.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

I want to comment something.

Is the main argument for neutral zone having a temporal dimension is because Hit uses his time skip ability there? Can't it be just that perhaps the angels uses their powers to grant time in a small area instead of the neutral zone itself having it? We saw that Hit's time skip works in the world of void which is directly stated to have no time there. Not disagreeing but would like my point addressed.

Proof of your claim? There is no proof = your words are empty, because your argument is based only on your own assumptions.

Regarding Hit using his time-skip ability in the void, perhaps you do not know that the Daishinkan granted the void the concept of spacetime for the sake of the fighters, and that is why he was able to use it there. Otherwise, in the neutral zone this was never stated, nor was it stated that it lacks time. This is the first point. The World of Void was at least explicitly stated to lack spacetime, and the Daishinkan granted it spacetime. As for the neutral zone, it was never said that there is no time there, nor was it said that Whis created time within it. Everything you are saying is based purely on your own personal assumptions, which are not accepted as evidence. On top of that, Hit used his ability outside the entire ring when Frost ran away to steal, so Hit chased him and used his time ability to knock him out of the ring altogether.

I have said what I have to say now, and your words are merely your opinion and have no evidence. I demand evidence for every letter you speak, every word, and every conclusion. Otherwise, do not forget that it is empty talk.

 

[Thermor]

You'd be right if Chariot is proposing a counter-CRT as a thread topic. Their point, to my reading, will be saying that the OP is wrong in X aspects so this upgrade is an invalid argument for 1-C. A separate CRT is not required for that argument to work. Or to say it in a less weird way, Chariot can argue the OP is wrong without invalidating the cosmology blog within the same CRT.

An attempt to change the cosmology directly, however, would require a different CRT and would be better suited to a staff thread to avoid a peanut gallery forming.

Could you share your input on my points?

I want to comment something.

Is the main argument for neutral zone having a temporal dimension is because Hit uses his time skip ability there? Can't it be just that perhaps the angels uses their powers to grant time in a small area instead of the neutral zone itself having it? We saw that Hit's time skip works in the world of void which is directly stated to have no time there. Not disagreeing but would like my point addressed.

Hit being able to use his time skip ability in a place directly stated to have no time is my biggest concern as it's the main evidence used for neutral zone having their own temporal dimension. Considering all angels are accepted to be able to manipulate time up to the hypertimeline level, the angels that hosted the tournament at the neutral zone can simply do the same thing as the Grand Priest (which is granting time in a pocket area).

 

[Thermor]

Angels have never been shown to do that. Why does it matter that the Angels hosted the tournament on the neutral zone? All they did was transport them there and make the arena. They also did things like repair the fighting stage, among other things. They don't need to add time there. You need to prove a claim such as this.

Then can you explain how does Hit able to use his time skip ability in World of Void? (A place directly stated to have no time at all).

 

[Shadow7001]

Azer always getting bullied regarding the CRT lmafo

anyways, I have a question: does goku and jiren also get an upgrade or are they saying the same as always?

No upgrade. Jiren and Goku and anyone on their level has no proof of being able to affect either the timeline or the Neutral Zone. No character besides Zeno will scale.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Could you share your input on my points?

So my view is that the Void used for the multiverse tournament indicates the Neutral Zone does have a time axis. The Grand Priest specified that the Null Zone/Void had no time, which seems to be an exceptional thing since it was noted. The NZ having galaxies, stars, and no comment that time was affected to me indicates that it does have a temporal axis.

Additionally, we tend to assume that things have time by default if things progress, which is why Voids generally need to have a statement saying they're timeless or lack time.

 

[TiltedFN]

Then can you explain how does Hit able to use his time skip ability in World of Void? (A place directly stated to have no time at all).

It's accepted he added spacetime to the world of void. At the very least, the area where they were fighting.

 

[Shadow7001]

Then can you explain how does Hit able to use his time skip ability in World of Void? (A place directly stated to have no time at all).

Grand Priest created time and space there, there's a thread for it that even gave Grand Priest some neat hax for doing it.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

Then can you explain how does Hit able to use his time skip ability in World of Void? (A place directly stated to have no time at all).

The Daishinkan created spacetime within the World of Void↓

He may possess an extremely high level of control over time and space (granting time and space to the World of Void, [19], where time and space do not exist, [20]). Nevertheless, Hit is still able to use his Time-Skip ability.

 

[Azertyhuuh]

No upgrade. Jiren and Goku and anyone on their level has no proof of being able to affect either the timeline or the Neutral Zone. No character besides Zeno will scale.

The Gods of Destruction would be 2-A, infinitely above the baseline, because a battle between two Gods of Destruction would lead to the annihilation of both universes, and this would also include part of the surrounding Neutral Zone. Destroying even a small five-dimensional structure would be equivalent to destroying an uncountably infinite number of four-dimensional universes, and for this reason all Gods of Destruction would be at 2-A, infinitely above the baseline.

 

[Shadow7001]

The Gods of Destruction would be 2-A, infinitely above the baseline, because a battle between two Gods of Destruction would lead to the annihilation of both universes, and this would also include part of the surrounding Neutral Zone. Destroying even a small five-dimensional structure would be equivalent to destroying an uncountably infinite number of four-dimensional universes, and for this reason all Gods of Destruction would be at 2-A, infinitely above the baseline.

No that's not how it works nor is that a part of this CRT (because it's completely wrong and ridiculous). I won't be explaining here. If you really wanna debate this stuff, take it to the general discussion thread and I'll explain why.

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Gods of Destruction would be 2-A, infinitely above the baseline, because a battle between two Gods of Destruction would lead to the annihilation of both universes, and this would also include part of the surrounding Neutral Zone. Destroying even a small five-dimensional structure would be equivalent to destroying an uncountably infinite number of four-dimensional universes, and for this reason all Gods of Destruction would be at 2-A, infinitely above the baseline.

What????

We absolutely do not treat a fifth-dimensional structure like that. The effected are must be of significant size, and they would be required to destroy it on the space-time scale to even get there. The GoDs may have extradimensional range, but nothing they do goes beyond 2-C.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

The Gods of Destruction would be 2-A, infinitely above the baseline, because a battle between two Gods of Destruction would lead to the annihilation of both universes, and this would also include part of the surrounding Neutral Zone. Destroying even a small five-dimensional structure would be equivalent to destroying an uncountably infinite number of four-dimensional universes, and for this reason all Gods of Destruction would be at 2-A, infinitely above the baseline.

insignificant 5D is not 2-A lol, i dont even know where did this idea of insignificant 5D baseline 5D and infinite 5D came from bcs tier 1 is literally all about HIGHER Infinities and anything below that doesnt qualify
so no destroying small 5D space can be anything but 2-A without any proof about it

 

[Mbpoops]

I do have a question though. How would this affect anime toppo? He was able to affect the world of void. Or is this just an outlier?

 

[Shadow7001]

I do have a question though. How would this affect anime toppo? He was able to affect the world of void. Or is this just an outlier?

It has no bearing here.

Man, I’m telling you that destroying a small five-dimensional structure counts as at least a 2-A feat, because even the smallest 5D structure contains an infinite number of spacetime structures. Destroying a small 5D structure would therefore grant a character at least 2-A, not Low 1-C. I never said Low 1-C—I said 2-A. I know that reaching Low 1-C normally requires destroying a universe-sized five-dimensional structure, but here I’m talking about the fact that destroying even a small portion of a 5D structure is equivalent to destroying an infinite number of four-dimensional universes.

For example, we have a four-dimensional timeline that contains within it an uncountably infinite number of three-dimensional universes, and it also contains an uncountably infinite number of two-dimensional and one-dimensional structures, and so on. This is because every fraction of a second is a complete snapshot of a three-dimensional universe, and a single second itself can be subdivided into infinitely many parts, each of which contains a full image of the universe. Destroying even a small part of a four-dimensional timeline therefore counts as a High 3-A feat, because by destroying a small segment of the timeline, you have destroyed infinitely many three-dimensional universes—and even more than that—since a single second of the timeline already contains infinitely many universes due to infinite divisibility. I think the idea should be clear by now.

The same thing applies here. We have the five-dimensional Neutral Zone surrounding all 12 universes. A clash between two Gods of Destruction would result in the annihilation of both universes and a portion of the Neutral Zone between them. That portion alone is five-dimensional, and even if it is small, destroying it would be considered a 2-A feat, because the smallest part of a higher-dimensional structure contains an infinite number of lower-dimensional structures within it. To form even a small five-dimensional structure, you need to stack an uncountably infinite number of four-dimensional structures to create it.

Will you stop?

 

[Mbpoops]

I do have a question though. How would this affect anime toppo? He was able to affect the world of void. Or is this just an outlier?

His range ti be specific i dont think he should scale ap wise in the slightest

 

[TiltedFN]

I do have a question though. How would this affect anime toppo? He was able to affect the world of void. Or is this just an outlier?

This doesn't effect anything.

 

[Mbpoops]

It has no bearing here.

Alright cool

 

[Mbpoops]

This doesn't effect anything.

Alrighty. Thought it would at least be a range feat but seems not