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All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

Ednaxel2 said:
Have we ever had a thread talking about the galactic nebula statement for DB's solar system? Ik we had some discussions here on it but nothing else outside of that
Click to expand...
We've had some threads on this issue in the past, and the general conclusion is that this specific statement is a mistranslation

Also, a while ago, @LuffyRuffy46307 requested someone on the translation request thread to translate the statement for him, and he also understood it as talking about the solar system and a galactic nebula, but not mentioning them being the same
 
Accelerated_Evolution said:
We've had some threads on this issue in the past, and the general conclusion is that this specific statement is a mistranslation

Also, a while ago, @LuffyRuffy46307 requested someone on the translation request thread to translate the statement for him, and he also understood it as talking about the solar system and a galactic nebula, but not mentioning them being the same
Click to expand...
Weird I was told the opposite by a different translator some time back in 2024, wish translations were easier lol
 
Proposal for a revision on Majin Buu's page, regarding his most powerful from.

Buuhan vs Kid Buu, Gohan vs Goku answered! End of the debate!

Please read the entire post before commenting counter arguments, it's very likely that it was already addressed in the post. If you'd like to skip the lengthty introduction, skip to the part saying BEGINNING

For this, I will not be using any material other than the Dragon Ball Manga editions. Why? Despite evidence to the contrary, like Toriyama stating himself that he was involved in the production of the Daizenshuu editions (for example) and them being licenced by Shueisha, many people don't accept the authority of supplementary material in discussion, so I will strictly use the manga because this is one source that is considered authoritive as a consensus, alongside words from Toriyama himself. I will pretend that the Manga is(are) the only official source of information, to skip the drag of convincing people otherwise because it's not necessary. The primary translation source will be Herms' translations, since they are broadly speaking very well done, most people are familiar with them, and you can check yourself if I'm translating something accurately simply by going to https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15488

If something is missing I will use translations I've done myself, with a combination of sources like LLMs (which are perfectly fine in this case, translation is one of the things LLMs excel at) which I've cross compared and which were approved by native speakers which I am not. Even official translations are not very accurate for powerscaling, the only one being the Viz editions. Even fan scans, the most popular one being the HornyScansCouncil one you've probably read on ******** or alternative, are superior to the Viz one, even if they are very poor sometimes themselves as you will see later.

I have read and watched every single piece of Dragon Ball media you can imagine. I've went trough the trouble of translating the manga myself from Japanese, comparing it to Herms' translations, I've read different editions (Tankobon, Kanzenban, colored, original, I've even obtained some original weekly shonen jump releases!) every official guidebook, watched every animated edition subbed and in multiple dubs, alongside Kai subbed and dubbed etc. I've also read every interview from people involved in production of this franchise I could find online, so I'm not new to this, I've been a huge fan of Dragon Ball since I was a kid.

I'm not just a powerscaler who happened to skim Dragon Ball for debates, and this particular debate has interested me ever since I noticed a contradiction in my, at the time, favorite video game, Dragon Ball Raging Blast 2. In the character description for Buuhan it said "It would not be an exaggeration to say that this is the strongest of the Majin" no such description existed in Kid Buu's section, however this game had an in game "Battle Power" system, ranging from 9 (weakest) to 20 (strongest) for non-enhanced characters, which was broadly speaking accurate (Videl had a score of 9, while Vegito and Gogeta were at 20) and there Buuhan was rated an 18 while Kid Buu had a 19. I was also very confused by the inconsistencies in the anime and thus I started investigating on and off over time.

BEGINNING

So, to begin, we'll examine direct manga evidence. I'll only use stuff directly stated in the manga, rather than chain scaling immediately, since chain should only be done after certain facts have been established. Only looking at quotes referencing power and using context surrounding it. I'll use the tankobon and the kanzenban editions and their panels only, since those are the ones people are familiar with, even tho dragon ball was originally serialized in the weekly shonen jump which includes evidence that will even further support my conclusion at the end, but for the sake of simplicity I will not use that either.

Starting with Kid Buu, since he's the most controversial form.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

It's later explained that Kid Buu absorbed two different Kaioshin, the South Kaioshin and the Dai Kaioshin. It's very difficult to tell from the language used whether only one of them weakened Kid Buu or if both of them did, because of the way the Japanese language labels plurals and singular terms, but luckily the rest of the evidence will make it very easy to draw a conclusion. Just keep this in mind. Because of that, there are two ways to interpret what's happening here.

Kid Buu fans offer a simple explanation here. Buu's ki is going up, he becomes Kid Buu at the end, therefore Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu. No other statement about Buu's power is made during or after this process.

Buuhan fans offer a different, more nuanced explanation. When Buu's ki is going up, he's in the process of going from Super Buu to Buff Buu, not Kid Buu. So what this means is that Buff Buu is stronger than Super Buu, but this doesn't automatically apply to Kid Buu. Buuhan fans have a point here. While Kid Buu fans look at this as one transformation, this is not the case as stated by Vegeta.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”

Here Vegeta specifies that Buu goes through two separate transformations rather than one.

So in a vacuum, both of these interpretations are perfectly valid, neither can be labeled as cope. All we can say for sure here is that Buff Buu is definitely stronger than Super Buu, but that's it.

I will skip the lengthty talk by Kibitoshin for now.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”

Kid Buu fans again interpret this in the most direct way. If Goku is the only one who could fight Majin Buu, then he's the strongest Z warrior, stronger than Gohan, and Kid Buu is definitely stronger than at least Super Buu.

Buuhan fans again have a more nuanced interpretation. Because every character who could be considered stronger than Goku, most notably Gohan, is dead at this point and physically incapable of fighting Buu, of course Goku is the only one who's able to go toe to toe with Kid Buu.

Again, two perfectly valid interpretations in a vacuum.

(Not in Herms' translations for some reason)

Vegeta: "Hang in there Kakarot, you are number one!!!"

Kid Buu fans have a simple explanation, Goku is number one, ergo he's the strongest.

Buuhan fans have a more nuanced interpretation again. This quote from Vegeta comes after a lengthy monologue about how great of a warrior Goku is, so it's likely Vegeta is referring to Goku as a fighter in general, not necessarily his power over the likes of Gohan.

Once again, two perfectly valid interpretations.

The next one is more so a feat than a statement, and it's Kid Buu vs the spirit bomb. I think arguments used by both sides are wrong.

The first one is by the Buuhan side and that is that the energy in the spirit bomb is "just genki, not raw power/ki". This is cope. Throughout the series, genki, energy and ki are used pretty interchangeably in Dragon Ball. Even in the context of the spirit bomb here, characters repeatedly say they are collecting Ki or Energy alongside Genki. So this argument that the energy donated to the spirit bomb is not actual power coming from characters is void. Even if you want to go into the specifics, Genki is literally "Energy" while the other components making up Ki are "Right-mindedness" and "courage" and according to Toriyama this is meant literally. So this means that Kid Buu is stronger than Ultimate Gohan? Not exactly.

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P5.3
Context: after Vegeta says he’ll hold off Boo again, so Goku can prepare the Genki-Dama
Goku: “You’ll sta-stall for time?…Yo-you’ve just been restored to life. Your ki still ain’t full, is it?!”

Here Goku says that because Vegeta was just revived, his Ki isn't full. It's unclear whether or not this applies to Gohan and the others, but it's enough that saying Kid Buu is definitively stronger than Gohan because he pushed the spirit bomb with Gohan's ki isn't sufficient from this. So once again, nothing conclusive.

It looks like we won't find our answer here, so why don't we look back? We talked about Kaioshin and how they affect Buu, well here's something most people skip over but is crucial in this discussion:


Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

Here Dabura clearly states that they can't use Kaioshin energy to revive Buu. We know for certain that the energy used to release Buu goes straight to him from Babidi in chapter 450 (no Herms' translation sadly) "If they fight in the Ship, Buu might awaken at half power" which is about where the meter on his hatch is at that point.

This on it's own should be conclusive. We already know that absorbing Dai Kaioshin made Buu significantly weaker and that Buu can't use Kaioshin energy. From this we can conclude that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu, since Buff Buu is at best as strong as Kid Buu or weaker than him. This also means that any argument that says Kid Buu can't be stronger than Super Buu, or be the strongest Buu because of Goku's chain scaling is void, because Super Buu can't be stronger because of the way his body works.

We have 0 direct evidence of a Kaioshin strengthening Buu, none. We have no evidence that the South Kaioshin strengthened Buu. The way people got to this conclusion and made it a fact in their minds is because they think that Super Buu must be stronger than Kid Buu, and because Buff Buu is stronger than Super Buu therefore South Kaioshin must have made him stronger when it's explained in the manga that it's not possible.

On the contrary, we have evidence of a Kaioshin weakening Buu, Dai Kaioshin and possibly South Kaioshin if you interpreted Kibitoshin that way, aswell as Dabura saying they can't use Kaioshin ki to fuel Buu.

For those of you not convinced, I'll move on to the nail in the coffin, irrefutable evidence.

Dragon Ball Super is a canon sequel to the original manga. Toriyama was deeply involved in it's making, especially after the TOP arc, working alongside Toyotaro. You can say whatever you want about the Super anime, but the fact remains that the DBS manga is canon and that it's an extension of Toriyama's word. Chapter 31 contains the quote that was supposed to end this debate but didn't for some reason.


Dende: "It is true. **That greatest, strongest enemy... **the soul of the evil Majin Buu was purified and reborn as a human."

Dende here is talking about Uub, who is a reincarnation of Kid Buu specifically. Here, direct manga evidence on a panel, authorized by Toriyama calling Kid Buu the greatest, strongest enemy.

While yes, Super Buu is referred to as "Evil Buu" in a lot of dragon ball media, so are the gray Buu (also Pure Evil Buu) and Kid Buu (also pure Buu or pure evil Buu) and here we know they are talking about Kid Buu because he's repeatedly the character shown in DBS manga when "evil Buu" is said, especially in this context and they are saying that the strongest Buu reincarnated as Uub, which is Kid Buu.

"Fusion" forms like Buuhan and Buutenks are also counted here and in any version where Kid Buu is called the strongest Buu. People have coped saying this only applies to base forms like Super Buu, but even the fusion ones are treated as separate forms even if they are similar to Super Buu.

Buutenks to Gohan: "As the former Buu declared, I will kill you" referring to Super Buu, which means Buutenks considers him a different Buu even if they share a similar mind

Going back to the original manga, there's many other, "micro evidences" other than the ones mentioned.

1. Goku is surprised that Buu was able to reach the Kaioshin realm. Even Buuhan wasn't able to replicate Goku's teleportation after seeing it.

2. Vegeta says that Goku is the only one able to fight "that Majin Buu", specifying "that one"

3. The sheer amount of power used for the spirit bomb to defeat Buu. Not only was the Energy from everyone on Earth used, but also other planets and the afterlife, as stated by Enma Daio

4. Vegeta is shocked that Goku was able to fight with Kid Buu, despite being somewhat aware of the power of the previous Buus

5. The DBS manga in the beginning says that the "sudden appearance of Majin Buu, the strongest enemy in history..." shows Kid Buu, he's also the one who appeared suddenly.

6. Kid Buu is repeatedly called the strongest Buu in the anime, including Kai which is supposed to be more faithful to the manga

7. Kid Buu is repeatedly called the strongest in (almost) every piece of supplementary media

8. Goku wasn't sure he can beat Kid Buu after 10 years of training after the Buu saga prior to meeting Uub

9. Vegeta, who saw everything Goku did since he went SS3, still said "that Buu is stronger than I imagined, and so are you, Kakarot"

I know this is tough for some of you to grasp, because it destroys some of the previously established scaling. What you have to remember is that this is fiction. Characters are as strong as the writer needs them to be. In a universe of wish fulfilling Dragons , why does your suspension of disbelief end at Kid Buu? Dragon Ball is repeatedly inconsistent, like Cell losing Android 18 but then becoming even stronger after an explosion. Kid Buu shouldn't even exist, after losing Good Buu he should have reverted to the Gray one.

If you really need an explanation as to why Goku was able to go toe to toe with a much stronger Buu after claiming he can't beat Super Buu here are some in universe explanations to fill the plot hole:

1. The location of the fight. Goku fights Kid Buu in the Kaioshin realm, where he's able to use much more of his power than on Earth in SS3, as explained in chapter 476. Yes, being in a living body, but being on Earth even while dead is also a huge nerf. This is a plausible explanation that references things explained in the Buu saga.

2. Goku got stronger during the fight. It's explained by Toriyama and also shown later in Super that Saiyans get stronger as they fight.

3. Most likely one, Goku just got stronger lol. He's the main hero in the series, he has plot armor, Toriyama needed to end the series with Goku so he did. Toriyama post facto explained this through Vegeta's dialogue, saying Goku is the only one who can fight him and calling him Number one!!! This isn't even the first time something like this happens. Vegeta says that him, Gohan and Krillin can beat Frieza to which he agrees when they first encounter him, even tho none of them should be stronger than Goku who was at 90.000 when Frieza had a PL of 530.000 they just got stronger.

What we know for sure is that two things didn't happen:

1. Goku didn't get a zenkai. This is cope used by Kid Buu fans. Zenkais haven't been a thing for years at this point, since the Saiyan saga, confirmed by Toriyama they weren't a thing afterwards, Buutenks also states Gohan didn't get stronger after being healed by Dende. Goku doesn't even take any damage to get a zenkai, let alone being close to death.

2. Goku didn't get stronger with the potara. The potara give Vegito a power boost, not Goku and Vegeta individually after fusion.

Even if Toriyama intended for Buuhan to be the strongest, his editors would have never allowed it. Shueisha would have never allowed their golden child not to end with Goku defeating the strongest villain of all time. Toriyama wasn't the only person to work on the manga and influence it. To everyone saying the anime/manga is "just hyping" with those statements, this is fiction FFS!!! Everything is supposed to be hype, why would they make a character weaker but cope with "just hype" instead of just making him stronger?

To those of you still clinging on to it being inconsistent and not being able to accept this is fiction, you are essentially saying your interpretation takes precedent over authorial intent. That is the definition of headcanon and I can't argue with you. It's up to the author to establish facts, and up to us as fans to connect them and fill the holes, NOT to disprove what the author(s) said.

Every single piece of Dragon Ball media involving Toriyama after the manga treats Goku as the strongest warrior. The beginning of Daima says he's "the most powerful warrior in the universe", in Daima Kaioshin says that Goku is "as far as I know, the strongest in the universe" and keep in mind that at this point Kaioshin doesn't know that Goku has SS4, he's still operating on the idea that Goku is similar to his end of Buu saga self. Super and BoG also treat Goku as the strongest Z fighter in the beginning.

I'll also address two quotes in the manga that people often use. Even if these quotes are true, we can consider them as being retconned, because they were stated when Toriyama wasn't even planning Kid Buu, but in spite of that, they don't hold any weight because they are mistranslated.

First one is this one:

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P11.1
Boo: “…What do you think, Gohan? My strategy succeeded safely. Look, isn’t it magnificent? This is a moment that will never appear again, no matter what the future may hold: the birth of the strongest majin.”

People mistranslated this, because of Viz and other scans as Buu saying he's the strongest "past present and future" when he actually never references the past. We can also attribute this statement to Gotenks' cocky personality, like when Vegeta said he's the strongest in the universe when Frieza existed.

The other one is this one:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P13.1
Boo: “Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”

People have mistranslated this one to say "Now I'm stronger than ever!" When he just says he's stronger than Buutenks

Furthermore, it takes him thinking he absorbed Vegito to say this:

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P3.5
Context: after Boo ‘absorbs’ Vegetto but nothing happens
Boo: “Hmm…Well, at any rate, I absorbed him. I have now become the strongest majin; without a doubt, there is nobody throughout the various worlds who compares to me…That’s fine…”

So only after absorbing Vegito is he confident enough that he's the strongest Majin, which is weird since he was supposedly the strongest when he absorbed Gotenks no?

Conclusion: Kid Buu is the strongest Buu and Goku is the strongest Z fighter at the end of the Buu saga!

Some common rebuttals:

"Gohan is the strongest unfused character" please know that this was NEVER stated in the manga nor any other source for that matter especially not at the end of the Buu saga. This is something that fans derived from chain scaling, which eventually got repeated so many times people took it as fact. Chain scaling is a legitimate way of powerscaling, however it should serve to connect the dots the author(s) left and fill the gaps, not to overrule what the author(s) repeatedly expressed!

"I don't understand how Buu who absorbed Gohan, Gotenks and everyone can be weaker than the one with no absorbtions, it's just math"

It's been stated that Buu lost power when he absorbed at least one Kaioshin and as I've shown this extends to all Kaioshin. The Kaioshin he absorbed are extremely powerful, the manga even implies they are similar to stronger than Kid Buu, Buu simply lost more power from the Kaioshin than he gained from the Z warriors
 
Jx0x0 said:
Proposal for a revision on Majin Buu's page, regarding his most powerful from.

Buuhan vs Kid Buu, Gohan vs Goku answered! End of the debate!

Please read the entire post before commenting counter arguments, it's very likely that it was already addressed in the post. If you'd like to skip the lengthty introduction, skip to the part saying BEGINNING

For this, I will not be using any material other than the Dragon Ball Manga editions. Why? Despite evidence to the contrary, like Toriyama stating himself that he was involved in the production of the Daizenshuu editions (for example) and them being licenced by Shueisha, many people don't accept the authority of supplementary material in discussion, so I will strictly use the manga because this is one source that is considered authoritive as a consensus, alongside words from Toriyama himself. I will pretend that the Manga is(are) the only official source of information, to skip the drag of convincing people otherwise because it's not necessary. The primary translation source will be Herms' translations, since they are broadly speaking very well done, most people are familiar with them, and you can check yourself if I'm translating something accurately simply by going to https://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15488

If something is missing I will use translations I've done myself, with a combination of sources like LLMs (which are perfectly fine in this case, translation is one of the things LLMs excel at) which I've cross compared and which were approved by native speakers which I am not. Even official translations are not very accurate for powerscaling, the only one being the Viz editions. Even fan scans, the most popular one being the HornyScansCouncil one you've probably read on ******** or alternative, are superior to the Viz one, even if they are very poor sometimes themselves as you will see later.

I have read and watched every single piece of Dragon Ball media you can imagine. I've went trough the trouble of translating the manga myself from Japanese, comparing it to Herms' translations, I've read different editions (Tankobon, Kanzenban, colored, original, I've even obtained some original weekly shonen jump releases!) every official guidebook, watched every animated edition subbed and in multiple dubs, alongside Kai subbed and dubbed etc. I've also read every interview from people involved in production of this franchise I could find online, so I'm not new to this, I've been a huge fan of Dragon Ball since I was a kid.

I'm not just a powerscaler who happened to skim Dragon Ball for debates, and this particular debate has interested me ever since I noticed a contradiction in my, at the time, favorite video game, Dragon Ball Raging Blast 2. In the character description for Buuhan it said "It would not be an exaggeration to say that this is the strongest of the Majin" no such description existed in Kid Buu's section, however this game had an in game "Battle Power" system, ranging from 9 (weakest) to 20 (strongest) for non-enhanced characters, which was broadly speaking accurate (Videl had a score of 9, while Vegito and Gogeta were at 20) and there Buuhan was rated an 18 while Kid Buu had a 19. I was also very confused by the inconsistencies in the anime and thus I started investigating on and off over time.

BEGINNING

So, to begin, we'll examine direct manga evidence. I'll only use stuff directly stated in the manga, rather than chain scaling immediately, since chain should only be done after certain facts have been established. Only looking at quotes referencing power and using context surrounding it. I'll use the tankobon and the kanzenban editions and their panels only, since those are the ones people are familiar with, even tho dragon ball was originally serialized in the weekly shonen jump which includes evidence that will even further support my conclusion at the end, but for the sake of simplicity I will not use that either.

Starting with Kid Buu, since he's the most controversial form.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

It's later explained that Kid Buu absorbed two different Kaioshin, the South Kaioshin and the Dai Kaioshin. It's very difficult to tell from the language used whether only one of them weakened Kid Buu or if both of them did, because of the way the Japanese language labels plurals and singular terms, but luckily the rest of the evidence will make it very easy to draw a conclusion. Just keep this in mind. Because of that, there are two ways to interpret what's happening here.

Kid Buu fans offer a simple explanation here. Buu's ki is going up, he becomes Kid Buu at the end, therefore Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu. No other statement about Buu's power is made during or after this process.

Buuhan fans offer a different, more nuanced explanation. When Buu's ki is going up, he's in the process of going from Super Buu to Buff Buu, not Kid Buu. So what this means is that Buff Buu is stronger than Super Buu, but this doesn't automatically apply to Kid Buu. Buuhan fans have a point here. While Kid Buu fans look at this as one transformation, this is not the case as stated by Vegeta.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”

Here Vegeta specifies that Buu goes through two separate transformations rather than one.

So in a vacuum, both of these interpretations are perfectly valid, neither can be labeled as cope. All we can say for sure here is that Buff Buu is definitely stronger than Super Buu, but that's it.

I will skip the lengthty talk by Kibitoshin for now.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P8.2
Context: as Goku fights pure Boo
Vegeta: “Kakarot…You’re incredible…I am simply no match for that Majin Boo…You’re the only one capable of fighting him…”

Kid Buu fans again interpret this in the most direct way. If Goku is the only one who could fight Majin Buu, then he's the strongest Z warrior, stronger than Gohan, and Kid Buu is definitely stronger than at least Super Buu.

Buuhan fans again have a more nuanced interpretation. Because every character who could be considered stronger than Goku, most notably Gohan, is dead at this point and physically incapable of fighting Buu, of course Goku is the only one who's able to go toe to toe with Kid Buu.

Again, two perfectly valid interpretations in a vacuum.

(Not in Herms' translations for some reason)

Vegeta: "Hang in there Kakarot, you are number one!!!"

Kid Buu fans have a simple explanation, Goku is number one, ergo he's the strongest.

Buuhan fans have a more nuanced interpretation again. This quote from Vegeta comes after a lengthy monologue about how great of a warrior Goku is, so it's likely Vegeta is referring to Goku as a fighter in general, not necessarily his power over the likes of Gohan.

Once again, two perfectly valid interpretations.

The next one is more so a feat than a statement, and it's Kid Buu vs the spirit bomb. I think arguments used by both sides are wrong.

The first one is by the Buuhan side and that is that the energy in the spirit bomb is "just genki, not raw power/ki". This is cope. Throughout the series, genki, energy and ki are used pretty interchangeably in Dragon Ball. Even in the context of the spirit bomb here, characters repeatedly say they are collecting Ki or Energy alongside Genki. So this argument that the energy donated to the spirit bomb is not actual power coming from characters is void. Even if you want to go into the specifics, Genki is literally "Energy" while the other components making up Ki are "Right-mindedness" and "courage" and according to Toriyama this is meant literally. So this means that Kid Buu is stronger than Ultimate Gohan? Not exactly.

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P5.3
Context: after Vegeta says he’ll hold off Boo again, so Goku can prepare the Genki-Dama
Goku: “You’ll sta-stall for time?…Yo-you’ve just been restored to life. Your ki still ain’t full, is it?!”

Here Goku says that because Vegeta was just revived, his Ki isn't full. It's unclear whether or not this applies to Gohan and the others, but it's enough that saying Kid Buu is definitively stronger than Gohan because he pushed the spirit bomb with Gohan's ki isn't sufficient from this. So once again, nothing conclusive.

It looks like we won't find our answer here, so why don't we look back? We talked about Kaioshin and how they affect Buu, well here's something most people skip over but is crucial in this discussion:


Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

Here Dabura clearly states that they can't use Kaioshin energy to revive Buu. We know for certain that the energy used to release Buu goes straight to him from Babidi in chapter 450 (no Herms' translation sadly) "If they fight in the Ship, Buu might awaken at half power" which is about where the meter on his hatch is at that point.

This on it's own should be conclusive. We already know that absorbing Dai Kaioshin made Buu significantly weaker and that Buu can't use Kaioshin energy. From this we can conclude that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu, since Buff Buu is at best as strong as Kid Buu or weaker than him. This also means that any argument that says Kid Buu can't be stronger than Super Buu, or be the strongest Buu because of Goku's chain scaling is void, because Super Buu can't be stronger because of the way his body works.

We have 0 direct evidence of a Kaioshin strengthening Buu, none. We have no evidence that the South Kaioshin strengthened Buu. The way people got to this conclusion and made it a fact in their minds is because they think that Super Buu must be stronger than Kid Buu, and because Buff Buu is stronger than Super Buu therefore South Kaioshin must have made him stronger when it's explained in the manga that it's not possible.

On the contrary, we have evidence of a Kaioshin weakening Buu, Dai Kaioshin and possibly South Kaioshin if you interpreted Kibitoshin that way, aswell as Dabura saying they can't use Kaioshin ki to fuel Buu.

For those of you not convinced, I'll move on to the nail in the coffin, irrefutable evidence.

Dragon Ball Super is a canon sequel to the original manga. Toriyama was deeply involved in it's making, especially after the TOP arc, working alongside Toyotaro. You can say whatever you want about the Super anime, but the fact remains that the DBS manga is canon and that it's an extension of Toriyama's word. Chapter 31 contains the quote that was supposed to end this debate but didn't for some reason.


Dende: "It is true. **That greatest, strongest enemy... **the soul of the evil Majin Buu was purified and reborn as a human."

Dende here is talking about Uub, who is a reincarnation of Kid Buu specifically. Here, direct manga evidence on a panel, authorized by Toriyama calling Kid Buu the greatest, strongest enemy.

While yes, Super Buu is referred to as "Evil Buu" in a lot of dragon ball media, so are the gray Buu (also Pure Evil Buu) and Kid Buu (also pure Buu or pure evil Buu) and here we know they are talking about Kid Buu because he's repeatedly the character shown in DBS manga when "evil Buu" is said, especially in this context and they are saying that the strongest Buu reincarnated as Uub, which is Kid Buu.

"Fusion" forms like Buuhan and Buutenks are also counted here and in any version where Kid Buu is called the strongest Buu. People have coped saying this only applies to base forms like Super Buu, but even the fusion ones are treated as separate forms even if they are similar to Super Buu.

Buutenks to Gohan: "As the former Buu declared, I will kill you" referring to Super Buu, which means Buutenks considers him a different Buu even if they share a similar mind

Going back to the original manga, there's many other, "micro evidences" other than the ones mentioned.

1. Goku is surprised that Buu was able to reach the Kaioshin realm. Even Buuhan wasn't able to replicate Goku's teleportation after seeing it.

2. Vegeta says that Goku is the only one able to fight "that Majin Buu", specifying "that one"

3. The sheer amount of power used for the spirit bomb to defeat Buu. Not only was the Energy from everyone on Earth used, but also other planets and the afterlife, as stated by Enma Daio

4. Vegeta is shocked that Goku was able to fight with Kid Buu, despite being somewhat aware of the power of the previous Buus

5. The DBS manga in the beginning says that the "sudden appearance of Majin Buu, the strongest enemy in history..." shows Kid Buu, he's also the one who appeared suddenly.

6. Kid Buu is repeatedly called the strongest Buu in the anime, including Kai which is supposed to be more faithful to the manga

7. Kid Buu is repeatedly called the strongest in (almost) every piece of supplementary media

8. Goku wasn't sure he can beat Kid Buu after 10 years of training after the Buu saga prior to meeting Uub

9. Vegeta, who saw everything Goku did since he went SS3, still said "that Buu is stronger than I imagined, and so are you, Kakarot"

I know this is tough for some of you to grasp, because it destroys some of the previously established scaling. What you have to remember is that this is fiction. Characters are as strong as the writer needs them to be. In a universe of wish fulfilling Dragons , why does your suspension of disbelief end at Kid Buu? Dragon Ball is repeatedly inconsistent, like Cell losing Android 18 but then becoming even stronger after an explosion. Kid Buu shouldn't even exist, after losing Good Buu he should have reverted to the Gray one.

If you really need an explanation as to why Goku was able to go toe to toe with a much stronger Buu after claiming he can't beat Super Buu here are some in universe explanations to fill the plot hole:

1. The location of the fight. Goku fights Kid Buu in the Kaioshin realm, where he's able to use much more of his power than on Earth in SS3, as explained in chapter 476. Yes, being in a living body, but being on Earth even while dead is also a huge nerf. This is a plausible explanation that references things explained in the Buu saga.

2. Goku got stronger during the fight. It's explained by Toriyama and also shown later in Super that Saiyans get stronger as they fight.

3. Most likely one, Goku just got stronger lol. He's the main hero in the series, he has plot armor, Toriyama needed to end the series with Goku so he did. Toriyama post facto explained this through Vegeta's dialogue, saying Goku is the only one who can fight him and calling him Number one!!! This isn't even the first time something like this happens. Vegeta says that him, Gohan and Krillin can beat Frieza to which he agrees when they first encounter him, even tho none of them should be stronger than Goku who was at 90.000 when Frieza had a PL of 530.000 they just got stronger.

What we know for sure is that two things didn't happen:

1. Goku didn't get a zenkai. This is cope used by Kid Buu fans. Zenkais haven't been a thing for years at this point, since the Saiyan saga, confirmed by Toriyama they weren't a thing afterwards, Buutenks also states Gohan didn't get stronger after being healed by Dende. Goku doesn't even take any damage to get a zenkai, let alone being close to death.

2. Goku didn't get stronger with the potara. The potara give Vegito a power boost, not Goku and Vegeta individually after fusion.

Even if Toriyama intended for Buuhan to be the strongest, his editors would have never allowed it. Shueisha would have never allowed their golden child not to end with Goku defeating the strongest villain of all time. Toriyama wasn't the only person to work on the manga and influence it. To everyone saying the anime/manga is "just hyping" with those statements, this is fiction FFS!!! Everything is supposed to be hype, why would they make a character weaker but cope with "just hype" instead of just making him stronger?

To those of you still clinging on to it being inconsistent and not being able to accept this is fiction, you are essentially saying your interpretation takes precedent over authorial intent. That is the definition of headcanon and I can't argue with you. It's up to the author to establish facts, and up to us as fans to connect them and fill the holes, NOT to disprove what the author(s) said.

Every single piece of Dragon Ball media involving Toriyama after the manga treats Goku as the strongest warrior. The beginning of Daima says he's "the most powerful warrior in the universe", in Daima Kaioshin says that Goku is "as far as I know, the strongest in the universe" and keep in mind that at this point Kaioshin doesn't know that Goku has SS4, he's still operating on the idea that Goku is similar to his end of Buu saga self. Super and BoG also treat Goku as the strongest Z fighter in the beginning.

I'll also address two quotes in the manga that people often use. Even if these quotes are true, we can consider them as being retconned, because they were stated when Toriyama wasn't even planning Kid Buu, but in spite of that, they don't hold any weight because they are mistranslated.

First one is this one:

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P11.1
Boo: “…What do you think, Gohan? My strategy succeeded safely. Look, isn’t it magnificent? This is a moment that will never appear again, no matter what the future may hold: the birth of the strongest majin.”

People mistranslated this, because of Viz and other scans as Buu saying he's the strongest "past present and future" when he actually never references the past. We can also attribute this statement to Gotenks' cocky personality, like when Vegeta said he's the strongest in the universe when Frieza existed.

The other one is this one:

Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P13.1
Boo: “Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”

People have mistranslated this one to say "Now I'm stronger than ever!" When he just says he's stronger than Buutenks

Furthermore, it takes him thinking he absorbed Vegito to say this:

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P3.5
Context: after Boo ‘absorbs’ Vegetto but nothing happens
Boo: “Hmm…Well, at any rate, I absorbed him. I have now become the strongest majin; without a doubt, there is nobody throughout the various worlds who compares to me…That’s fine…”

So only after absorbing Vegito is he confident enough that he's the strongest Majin, which is weird since he was supposedly the strongest when he absorbed Gotenks no?

Conclusion: Kid Buu is the strongest Buu and Goku is the strongest Z fighter at the end of the Buu saga!

Some common rebuttals:

"Gohan is the strongest unfused character" please know that this was NEVER stated in the manga nor any other source for that matter especially not at the end of the Buu saga. This is something that fans derived from chain scaling, which eventually got repeated so many times people took it as fact. Chain scaling is a legitimate way of powerscaling, however it should serve to connect the dots the author(s) left and fill the gaps, not to overrule what the author(s) repeatedly expressed!

"I don't understand how Buu who absorbed Gohan, Gotenks and everyone can be weaker than the one with no absorbtions, it's just math"

It's been stated that Buu lost power when he absorbed at least one Kaioshin and as I've shown this extends to all Kaioshin. The Kaioshin he absorbed are extremely powerful, the manga even implies they are similar to stronger than Kid Buu, Buu simply lost more power from the Kaioshin than he gained from the Z warriors
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too long, buuhan solos
 
Accelerated_Evolution said:
We've had some threads on this issue in the past, and the general conclusion is that this specific statement is a mistranslation

Also, a while ago, @LuffyRuffy46307 requested someone on the translation request thread to translate the statement for him, and he also understood it as talking about the solar system and a galactic nebula, but not mentioning them being the same
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I was very confused about this. I was going to update DB saga Cell even more, but i can't remember anything else that was going through my mind. It was so many years ago.
 
I just had the most glorious thought, if goku hated everyone that tried to screw him over his only friends would be deitys
 
I wanna make a Frieza clan physiology page for fun but it'd look weird without a saiyan physiology page first but a saiyan physiology page is actual buns to work on so now I'm in a loop
ishowspeed-crazy.gif
 
Ednaxel2 said:
I wanna make a Frieza clan physiology page for fun but it'd look weird without a saiyan physiology page first but a saiyan physiology page is actual buns to work on so now I'm in a loop
ishowspeed-crazy.gif
Click to expand...
What even is there for the Frieza Race?

Self-Sustance 1-2, Type 2 Immortality, and Body Control seem to be the only boons you get from being them in the canon. Any Ki User can use telekinesis, fire Death Beams, Death Slicers, Death Saucers, etc.

Frieza being really durable is his only trait, and only Frieza really demonstrates it (King Cold is rendered unable to fight back from a simple blast to the chest, Frost doesn’t even demonstrate it because he just loses without preamble 90% of the time). Maybe Poison Resistance?

On top of that, Frieza (his father and Cooler as well) are Mutants. They’re not even representative of the species. It’d apply to mostly 3 guys. (2, since Cooler isn’t even canon, but still).

I honestly don’t think any race needs a physiology page in Dragon Ball. They’re simply too basic in ability and so few in number it’s a waste of time.
 
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RedReaper616 said:
…
What type of edgy fanfiction slop is this?
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It's true man- Yamcha tried to steal from him and kill him , krillion cheated him out of dinner and was a bit of an ass when they first met tien also tried to kill him before being befriended- piccolo. Well you know.

Even bulma had conviently not told goku his grandpa's ball would shoot off to the ends of the Earth of the got her wish. The only people who haven't are his family or literal gods.
 
RedReaper616 said:
What even is there for the Frieza Race?

Self-Sustance 1-2, Type 2 Immortality, and Body Control seem to be the only boons you get from being them in the canon.
Click to expand...
Bodily weaponry (via tail or horns via certain transformations), Elasticity, Space Survival, and enhanced senses. They should also have resistance to extreme colds and disease manipulation for canon & games.

Transformation users will have, well transformation, and regen. Golden form users will also have light manipulation (excluding manga).
RedReaper616 said:
On top of that, Frieza (his father and Cooler as well) are Mutants. They’re not even representative of the species. It’d apply to mostly 3 guys. (2, since Cooler isn’t even canon, but still).
Click to expand...
It'd also Include Cell since he has King Cold and Frieza's DNA, Frieza's three other profiles, the Demon-Mutant/Bio-Android Demon section of the demon physiology page, Kuriza due to being Frieza's son (plus a Heroes profile for Cooler which is already done, just not uploaded yet) And that's 7 and maybe eventually eight character profiles plus another physiology page that'd get affected, and the standards for how many users are needed to justify for such a page is only 5

We can just have two types for non-mutants (Chilled and Xenoverse Warriors 1/2) and actual mutants listed above, albeit with a lot less abilities for non-mutants.

I'll just see how the physiology page will go and if it'll work out ngl
 
Darkmon_cns said:
It's true man- Yamcha tried to steal from him and kill him , krillion cheated him out of dinner and was a bit of an ass when they first met tien also tried to kill him before being befriended- piccolo. Well you know.

Even bulma had conviently not told goku his grandpa's ball would shoot off to the ends of the Earth of the got her wish. The only people who haven't are his family or literal gods.
Click to expand...
I don’t think he would have gotten far enough to meet most gods if he was that kind of person
 
Nullflowerblush said:
I fail to understand how Goku could ever possibly surpass a being who possesses the combined full potential of both himself and Vegeta further amplified by tens of times without somehow acquiring a completely new power outside of his original latent potential (like SSG during the events of Battle of Gods).
Click to expand...

TiltedFN said:
Who says it's the full potential of Goku? He didn't even know how to access UI at will until Merus sacrificed himself.
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We have literally seen this in heroes it's not out of the blue to assume.
 
supertomioka said:
We have literally seen this in heroes it's not out of the blue to assume.
Click to expand...

SS4 Xeno Goku ~< SSB Goku <<<<<< SSB Kaio-ken Vegito ~< Cumber < UI Goku, but also SS3 Cumber < SS4 Xeno Vegito?

Like, are we forgetting that between his fight with Vegito and his fight with UI Goku, Cumber used a Power Ball, had his Great Ape power sealed off by Fu, fought SSG Goku, fought SS4 Xeno Goku and Vegeta and then SS4 Xeno Vegito as a Super Saiyan 3, using multiple large energy attacks in the process?
 
Nullflowerblush said:
SS4 Xeno Goku ~< SSB Goku <<<<<< SSB Kaio-ken Vegito ~< Cumber < UI Goku, but also SS3 Cumber < SS4 Xeno Vegito?

Like, are we forgetting that between his fight with Vegito and his fight with UI Goku, Cumber used a Power Ball, had his Great Ape power sealed off by Fu, fought SSG Goku, fought SS4 Xeno Goku and Vegeta and then SS4 Xeno Vegito as a Super Saiyan 3, using multiple large energy attacks in the process?
Click to expand...
Didn't MUI Goku casually dispel his powerball that both Xeno Goku and Vegeta SSJ4 struggled with individually but also as Xeno Vegito SSJ4?
 
Shadow7001 said:
Didn't MUI Goku casually dispel his powerball that both Xeno Goku and Vegeta SSJ4 struggled with individually but also as Xeno Vegito SSJ4?
Click to expand...
Cumber does not use the Désastre Eraser against UI Goku; in fact, the only energy attack he uses against Goku is a Continuous Energy Bullet, which Goku dodges.

Also, let's not forget about Ultimate Hearts, who, despite being capable of sensing God Ki and previously watching UI Goku (not instantly) defeat Ultimate Kamiorem, thought himself completely unstoppable against the Z-Fighters and the likes of Fusion Zamasu and Jiren; whose power (and not UI Goku's) initially caught the attention of the Grand Priest; and who Goku and Vegeta ultimately believed only Fusion (SSB Gogeta) would work against.

Also, Heroes? Seriously?
 
TiltedFN said:
Dude is using Heroes lol. Anyways, UI Goku from the Moro arc can clearly beat up Gogeta. It's like actually a low diff fight lmao. Gogeta is leaving on a stretcher.
Click to expand...
How is Gogeta from the same arc with the same form weaker than a Goku from the same arc with the same form
 
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