Heaven Revision (Hazbin Hotel)

[Eden_Warlock99]

Because they wouldn’t die without AW so they are actually reliant on their souls without Low godly

Huh? You think an Exorcist can live as a decapitated head lol

Like I don't know why you keep trying to make it an immortality thing, when that doesnt at all solve the issue? They're immune to HARM, not death.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

I think we should just stop at Winners having comparable Regen to Sinners cuz both are Afterlifes, and leave Exorcists alone

Heck I don't even think Vaggie's wing regen is something she can reliably repeat

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

My opions on type 8 are the same as Edens and I think should be Excorcist Regen should either be conditional (needs to use the power of love) or limited (only heals wings)

Agree

 

[Chritin]

Gonna reply to this in a bit cause uhh... this feels way off. At least the regen portion.

 

[Chritin]

Back at it again

• Adam. Immortality (Type 8), Regeneration (Low-High)

Sinners are immortal because they are already dead and cannot go to another after life exactly the same way Winner's would. It was believed the Angels were invincible, unharmable. Later confirmed once again and that they are unafraid of harm.

This is generally fine I suppose if we are saying both sinners and winners follow the same logic as undead souls. However, I think you are kind of overblowing what that means for both groups, particularly winners. The reason the angels thought they could not be harmed was simply due to the fact that they are significantly more powerful than sinners. Angels have been shown repeatedly to scale to each other, like when Lute ripped off Vaggie's wings, and Angelic steel is simply a weakness which closes this power gap. So no, their type 8 immortality doesn't make them nigh-invulnerable because their soul needs to die for them to get killed off permanently. They can still be incapacitated by someone equal too or stronger than them.

As a quick aside, the whole thing of Angelic weapons permanently killing souls is a bit strange, at least when it comes to Adam. Pentious was able to be reincarnated as a winner, despite the fact his souls should've been obliterated by Adams holy light. So either Adams attacks don't erase souls, or Angelic attacks don't permanently end souls the way we think they do.

With Adam specifically showing quick regeneration and only seeing Angelic attacks such as Sir Pentious as a threat.

I don't see the regen here? I mean I guess you're arguing that he healed from a flesh wound in between scenes here, but I think it could simply be an artistic mistake not to show it here. If they were so accurate and wanted to show he'd healed from it, they'd have his clothes still tattered in that spot. I really don't think this is clear evidence of any major regen, and it certainly isn't perfect evidence of Low-High regen.

Still, if we are taking the Sinner=Winner route, I suppose it is fair to say that Adam does have Low-High regen, but like the other sinners it isn't all that comabt applicable due to the time it takes to heal. Although looking at the sinner physio page, the evidence presented is kinda bad. Like, one livestream statement where Vivzie kinda guessed that sinners could maybe regen limbs, no clarification on if the boulder guy recovered, and three scenes of people getting eaten also with no clarification, soooo...

Unlike Adam they lack the Sinner/Winner argument, but I know the questions that will come my way so let me explain my idea on how it works. We saw how quickly Vaggie was able to heal his wings the MOMENT she wanted and willed it, Lute's arm isn't healed because she cannot let go of Adam's death and clearly holds that grief (literally gone insane). What I am tryna get is that Exorcist have Regeneration when they will it, IN case it's something that they literally don't want to heal deep down through emotional reasons. And unlike Sinners they can heal at whim making them effectively "invincible" without the use of Angelic Weapons.

Firstly, we have no idea how Vaggie regrew her wings. As other have mentioned, it is kind of a freak moment. While I guess it isn't impossible to say that other winners could preform something similar, AGAIN, it isn't really fully combat applicable. Beyond that, however, Lute not regrowing her arm has nothing to do with this and is honestly just and antifeat. Attempting to argue its over her trauma over Adam is entirely unfounded and headcannon, let alone the fact her losing her arm had nothing directly due to Adam's death, but instead her fight with Vaggie.

This perfectly explains everything and makes sense by what we see in the show. Before anyone says it yes we know Exorcist can definitely kill Overlords who should be able to hold their own yet can't and consider them unstoppable, which right now doesn't make any sense as they leck Regeneration AND Immortality AND Invulnerability while also clearly not being Durability Merchants through their feats...

Again, there is a gap in their abilities. Granted, Overlords can probably fight basic angels (as seen with Carmilla, although she had Angelic steel) but they still lose out to the big guys like Adam and probably the Seraphim. Also, the exorcists in that scene got hurt by basically being dumbasses and flying at their own speed into Alastor's bubble. It didn't involve any of them getting hit by him, just getting hurt by their own flight KE.

This is HEAVILY consistent with Goetia being also unbeatable without Angelic Weapons and healing anything else quickly.

Are there any examples of Goetia expressly regenerating from anything? Hell, the only time I remember any of them getting hurt is Stolas literally getting hospitalized by Striker. Granted, we know that angelic weapons negate regeneration of sinners by killing their souls, but we don't know how exactly they affect hellborn demons. It could just be that they are weaker to them and can be injured more readily, in which case it's further evidence that they can't regen normal injuries.

• Adam's IQ

Gifted (While Adam generally fights those who can't harm him at all, in times against those who can harm him or at least put up a fight, he can dice through swarms of attacks and utilize his usually overwhelming power very effectively. Instantly deduced who the creator of the forcefield was in the heat of battle, after Alastor avoided his direct attacks Adam used his creativity to create a shockwave attack mid battle to take out Alastor's power source without letting him avoid it

Boy, that Giorno skill-gap must've stung. Anyway, I really don't think he deserves to be gifted at all. He let slip that the exterminations were happening the moment he got harassed about it. I don't see how him being able to fight off random fodder enemies is a testament to his intelligence. Neither is noticing Alastor as the source of the orb. He's the one dude closest to Adam in the fight above most of the chaos, flickering electricity the same color as the orb. Hell, Adam could've seen through the orb itself tbh. Anyway, ain't no way you're saying Adam used his "creativity" to hit Alastor. He was throwing a hissy-fit and swung with a big swing to hit Alastor. Simple as. He had no clue that the staff was the origin of Alastor's power, and literally just tried to take him out cause he was tired of getting tapped.

As a matter of fact, Adam got skill stomped by Lucifer who also has gifted intelligence when he shouldn't even have it either. Dude got outplayed by Vox TWICE; he isn't the brightest bulb by a mile. At best, Adam can be upgraded to Above Average since he is at least smart enough to hold and train an army, although like most other beings in heaven they are naive and prone to doing dumb sh*t (i.e., throwing themselves into a magic ball like a bunch of idiots).

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

while also clearly not being Durability Merchants through their feats...

Quick thing though: are you being fr by using Alastor here, the guy who is a cut above all other Overlords and is closer to General of Exorcists than anything?

 

[ShionAH]

. However, I think you are kind of overblowing what that means for both groups, particularly winners. The reason the angels thought they could not be harmed was simply due to the fact that they are significantly more powerful than sinners. Angels have been shown repeatedly to scale to each other, like when Lute ripped off Vaggie's wings, and Angelic steel is simply a weakness which closes this power gap. So no, their type 8 immortality doesn't make them nigh-invulnerable because their soul needs to die for them to get killed off permanently. They can still be incapacitated by someone equal too or stronger than them.

I mean yeah. Thats kinda how Immortality with no regeneration means, no shit Sherlock.

As a quick aside, the whole thing of Angelic weapons permanently killing souls is a bit strange, at least when it comes to Adam. Pentious was able to be reincarnated as a winner, despite the fact his souls should've been obliterated by Adams holy light. So either Adams attacks don't erase souls, or Angelic attacks don't permanently end souls the way we think they do.

Absolutely not, the entire cast believing Sir Pentious died contradicts the idea that Adams Holy Light can’t kill Sinners and it also doesn’t make sense why he would use an attack that can’t even effect his opponents during war. Its simply because we don’t know how redemption works, maybe Sir Pentious was saved RIGHT before hit? Maybe Redemption can save you even from soul erasure? We don’t know.

I don't see the regen here?

He gets three stab wounds to the shoulder and in the next scene its healed and he even uses the same arm to choke her

Firstly, we have no idea how Vaggie regrew her wings. As other have mentioned, it is kind of a freak moment. While I guess it isn't impossible to say that other winners could preform something similar, AGAIN, it isn't really fully combat applicable. Beyond that, however, Lute not regrowing her arm has nothing to do with this and is honestly just and antifeat. Attempting to argue its over her trauma over Adam is entirely unfounded and headcannon, let alone the fact her losing her arm had nothing directly due to Adam's death, but instead her fight with Vaggie.

That doesn’t mean anything. Exorcist arent getting combat applicable regeneration anyway as I made clear in my comments late on, they would get the Low Mid through whatever Vaggie did

and probably the Seraphim.

Uh yeah but Seraphims don’t go down there.

Are there any examples of Goetia expressly regenerating from anything?

Moments after he is fully healed

Boy, that Giorno skill-gap must've stung.

Petty comment for no reason. Disgusting.

He let slip that the exterminations were happening the moment he got harassed about it.

We aren’t talking about normal Intelligence also thats mostly because he doesn’t give a shit about the rules.

Anyway, ain't no way you're saying Adam used his "creativity" to hit Alastor. He was throwing a hissy-fit and swung with a big swing to hit Alastor. Simple as. He had no clue that the staff was the origin of Alastor's power, and literally just tried to take him out cause he was tired of getting tapped.

Well do YOU have any proof for this claim? All I was frustrated Adam randomly using the PERFECT move to stop Alastor from dodging and taking out his main power source then never having the same ability again as he never faces anyone thats a glass canon. He is still a War General

As a matter of fact, Adam got skill stomped by Lucifer who also has gifted intelligence when he shouldn't even have it either.

What Skillstomp?? Adam was going berserk and just spamming while Lucifer was abusing his superior agility, power and shapeshifting that also makes him incorporeal for a second. Tfym??

Anyways. I will make the cleaned up CRT today so the staff will be easier to get.

 

[Mythic381]

Are there any examples of Goetia expressly regenerating from anything?

Did you even watch Sinsmas? Andrealphus regenerates immediately after Stolas beat him up and after he got his throat slit.

 

[Chritin]

I mean yeah. Thats kinda how Immortality with no regeneration means, no shit Sherlock.

Glad we're on the same page. Just wanted to clarify that Adams soul-based immortality doesn't also grant him some weird invulnerability.

Absolutely not, the entire cast believing Sir Pentious died contradicts the idea that Adams Holy Light can’t kill Sinners and it also doesn’t make sense why he would use an attack that can’t even effect his opponents during war. Its simply because we don’t know how redemption works, maybe Sir Pentious was saved RIGHT before hit? Maybe Redemption can save you even from soul erasure? We don’t know.

Even if they thought he permanently died, he clearly didn't. Also, even if Adam's holy light can't permanently kill sinners, it clearly does a load of damage and would immediately incap sinners. Hell, it vaporizes people, something that the sinner's current low-high regen can't overcome.

All I'm trying to say here is that the current logic behind Angelic weapons, and particularly Adam's light is much more nuanced than permanently destroying souls. It seems you even agree on this since you put forth two explanations for redemption working before permanent soul-death.

He gets three stab wounds to the shoulder and in the next scene its healed and he even uses the same arm to choke her

Again, it's probably just an animation error that it wasn't shown. As I said, if they were so adamant to show he regenerated, his clothes would still be tattered from getting stabbed. Also, a flesh wound like that wouldn't entirely stop him from grabbing Charlie and choking her out.

That doesn’t mean anything. Exorcist arent getting combat applicable regeneration anyway as I made clear in my comments late on, they would get the Low Mid through whatever Vaggie did

And I'm arguing that in it of itself is a bit tenuous. Especially your idea that Lute could somehow regrow her arm if she got over Adam. That idea is entirely unfounded headcannon.

Uh yeah but Seraphims don’t go down there.

My point was that they simply outscale them.

Moments after he is fully healed

Did you even watch Sinsmas? Andrealphus regenerates immediately after Stolas beat him up and after he got his throat slit.

Its been a while since I watched it so I forgot about this scene specifically. Still, healing from getting your throat slit is like Low-Mid, and y'all didn't address my consideration on if angelic weaponry affect their regen.

Petty comment for no reason. Disgusting.

It's just a lighthearted jab. You could also say making a CRT to address the single thing your character lost over is petty, but that's here nor there.

We aren’t talking about normal Intelligence also thats mostly because he doesn’t give a shit about the rules.

He audibly goes "shit" when he lets it slip, clearly an accident on his part. He also cares enough about the rules to not get punished by Sara, even if he doesn't like them.

Well do YOU have any proof for this claim? All I was frustrated Adam randomly using the PERFECT move to stop Alastor from dodging and taking out his main power source then never having the same ability again as he never faces anyone thats a glass canon. He is still a War General

Well YOU are the one arguing its some proof of exceptional combat intelligence. I'm just positing that it isn't as impressive as you are making it out to be. Like it isn't impressive for Adam to pick out the one guy right in front of him to fight. It isn't impressive that he unloaded a huge attack on someone after getting hit when he usually sweeps through enemies.

What Skillstomp?? Adam was going berserk and just spamming while Lucifer was abusing his superior agility, power and shapeshifting that also makes him incorporeal for a second. Tfym??

Oh so NOW he's going berserk, even though he wasn't before. Uh huh, sure.

Either way, none of those abilities are clearly that crazy for someone with gifted intelligence to deal with. Hell, Adam KNOWS Lucifer, and is probably aware of some of his fantastical abilities.

Anyways. I will make the cleaned up CRT today so the staff will be easier to get.

Uhhh why are you trying to make a new CRT where none of the arguments are? You clarify the current state of the thread with new posts, and staff can just go back and read the presented arguments if they want to evaluate. I don't even know if a new CRT which is just a copycat of an open discussion is allowed, but I'll let staff speak on that.

 

[ShionAH]

Even if they thought he permanently died, he clearly didn't. Also, even if Adam's holy light can't permanently kill sinners, it clearly does a load of damage and would immediately incap sinners. Hell, it vaporizes people, something that the sinner's current low-high regen can't overcome.

Again. It’s Redemption. We have NO idea how it works meanwhile we know Angelic Magic can kill Sinners just like Angelic Steel.

Again, it's probably just an animation error that it wasn't shown. As I said, if they were so adamant to show he regenerated, his clothes would still be tattered from getting stabbed. Also, a flesh wound like that wouldn't entirely stop him from grabbing Charlie and choking her out.

Proof? All we see on screen is injured Adam -> healed Adam.

y'all didn't address my consideration on if angelic weaponry affect their regen.

They definitely do.

You could also say making a CRT to address the single thing your character lost over is petty, but that's here nor there.

You saw me make Adam regeneration, Sinner Immortality, Exorcist Immortality, Lucifer Resistances and verse wide Mind Manipulation Resistance and you think its to “adress the single thing” that is his skill? You really need to like… comprehend stuff

Sara

You didnt even watch the shows I alr know

Oh so NOW he's going berserk, even though he wasn't before. Uh huh, sure.

“Oh my gosh? Adam screaming and going insane as he sees the “most hated being in all of creation” means he goes berserk? How??”

-You

Either way, none of those abilities are clearly that crazy for someone with gifted intelligence to deal with. Hell, Adam KNOWS Lucifer, and is probably aware of some of his fantastical abilities.

Last time they literally saw each other was in Eden lol…

Uhhh why are you trying to make a new CRT where none of the arguments are? You clarify the current state of the thread with new posts, and staff can just go back and read the presented arguments if they want to evaluate. I don't even know if a new CRT which is just a copycat of an open discussion is allowed, but I'll let staff speak on that.

Huh? I will abondon the whole Exorcist regeneration and make a more cleaned up one with possibly a few more additions. What the **** are you even talking about, and why would you even care lol. I admit this CRT doesn’t look as fancy or good as my usual CRTs and I already discussed some points in the general discussion thread afterwards and changed my mind.

So tell me Chritrin what the **** is wrong with me making a CRT now that I changed my mind about this CRTs OP and want to focus on other things?

Hilarious. Just Hilarious. Why did I even bother explaining such a simple act, I am gonna do it anyways. If you want to show up there too you are free to do so and I do suggest you learn the names of the characters first.

 

[Vietthai96]

Closing due to OP request