The silliest Naruto LS upgrade

[DavidTPPM]

The premise is simple. We got an accepted calculation for Sasuke lifting his sword at rel+ speeds that goes up to class P. This thread is to decide whether we can use it or not. I'm not going to go into who this scales to and who it doesn't since I plan on enslaving someone else to do that if the feat is deemed usable.

Arguments in favor of using the calculation:

• The feat is blatantly a "lifting" feat as it's literally Sasuke lifting object very fast
• The value is not derived from striking or destruction but rather pure acceleration and mass.
• As far as I can tell it's mathematically correct and doesn't seem to break any rules
• It's very similar to another feat linked as an example which was made by a CGM and accepted by another CGM (you could even argue this is way more straightforward since this is lifting and that is jumping), and if that works this should too

Arguments against using the calculation:

• It's really silly so @Kaydee1648 thinks it'll never pass

I'm going to update the argument lists if anyone brings anything new to the table but for now this is all I can think of.

Also I'm putting this in a CRT for now as the calculation itself isn't really what's being discussed but rather the nature of the feat. Less of "is the calculation correct" and more so "is the feat valid to be used". But if enough people think it should be a CGM discussion thread then I'm down to have it changed.

"You should totally use it, you're the goat David!" (agree):
"It's not actually a bicep curl man, he has horrible technique!" (disagree):

 

[Kaydee1648]

It's really silly so @Kaydee1648 thinks it'll never pass

Weight of a small moon from swinging a katana

Yes i’m being incredulous

 

[SeijiSetto]

wouldn't our rules on KE prevent this thing from being used (due to the sword being a mundane weight and not requiring superhuman strength to be carried)

much in the same way we don't give people who carry regular weapons while moving at high speed tier 7 ratings just because of the KE of carrying said object (then again i'm sure you could make the same argument about jumping feats where the person is of a mundane weight and why those are allowed)

i think as things are written RIGHT NOW this wouldn't be allowed

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

Arguments against using the calculation:

• It's really silly so @Kaydee1648 thinks it'll never pass

Idk man, this looks like a very strong counter argument to me

 

[DavidTPPM]

wouldn't our rules on KE prevent this thing from being used (due to the sword being a mundane weight and not requiring superhuman strength to be carried)

much in the same way we don't give people who carry regular weapons while moving at high speed tier 7 ratings just because of the KE of carrying said object

Maybe, however technically that is strictly only about AP from kinetic energy so the f=ma end should still work .


Jokes aside the rule mentions this:

As such feats like just running or carrying a small object, like another character, should only be used if the fiction has made clear that the speed of the movement correlates to the character's power or if the character uses the fast moving object to attack.

And Naruto does kinda do that. Ohnoki amps Ay's speed specifically by lowering his weight. Meaning the correlation between speed and mass is clearly shown.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Idk man, this looks like a very strong counter argument to me

Strong enough for me to make an entire CRT over it

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

wouldn't our rules on KE prevent this thing from being used (due to the sword being a mundane weight and not requiring superhuman strength to be carried)

much in the same way we don't give people who carry regular weapons while moving at high speed tier 7 ratings just because of the KE of carrying said object (then again i'm sure you could make the same argument about jumping feats where the person is of a mundane weight and why those are allowed)

i think as things are written RIGHT NOW this wouldn't be allowed

Pretty sure I saw this happen for an OP Calc, don’t see what’s wrong, if a series has explicit statements of such movement they should get to eat their cake unless something is proven to be contradictory, especially in the Naruto franchise where Kishimoto makes sure to highlight effects of light speed travel and glazes characters durability because of it instead of treating it as a speed only thing

“should only be used if the fiction has made clear that the speed of the movement correlates to the character's power”

Since Naruto goes beyond just speed when dealing with SOL stuff it should be fair game for us

 

[Damage3245]

While Striking Strength measures the energy of a character's physical attacks, Lifting Strength measures the amount of mass they can lift, which derives from the amount of force a character can produce.

Our standards aren't super clear on this, but the Lifting Strength page specifies that it is the amount of mass a character can lift. Not just how quickly they can move a certain amount of mass in an instantaneous motion.

Just because Sasuke can lift a small sword quickly doesn't mean he could lift a mountain over his head if you asked him to.

I think our standards should be updated to officially accept this method in the Lifting Strength page if we're going to go for this.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Our standards aren't super clear on this, but the Lifting Strength page specifies that it is the amount of mass a character can lift. Not just how quickly they can move a certain amount of mass in an instantaneous motion.

This is just appealing to phrasing in a hyper literal manner while ignoring alternatively accepted methods when they aren’t banned
The end goal is deriving force, that’s what matters in a vs match in the end

I think our standards should be updated to officially accept this method in the Lifting Strength page if we're going to go for this.

I personally think anyone in opposition should make a staff thread to ban/update this method if they’re not fond of it rather than tell the supporters they need to do so and so even tho they’re using the same formula that’s been greenlit here for ages

 

[DavidTPPM]

Our standards aren't super clear on this, but the Lifting Strength page specifies that it is the amount of mass a character can lift. Not just how quickly they can move a certain amount of mass in an instantaneous motion.

Just because Sasuke can lift a small sword quickly doesn't mean he could lift a mountain over his head if you asked him to.

I think our standards should be updated to officially accept this method in the Lifting Strength page if we're going to go for this.

I'm not sure what you mean. We measure lifting strength in force (in Newtons/kgf), not in mass (which is just kg). They're just closely tied since the amount of force you can output directly affects how much mass you can move (ignoring outside factors like drag or air resistance).

And getting LS of moving an object with a certain mass and acceleration has always been a thing. 99% of LS calcs either directly get their results through mass*acceleration, or by deriving it from KE which itself kinda just loops around to the same thing.

 

[Damage3245]

This is just appealing to phrasing in a hyper literal manner while ignoring alternatively accepted methods when they aren’t banned
The end goal is deriving force, that’s what matters in a vs match in the end


I personally think anyone in opposition should make a staff thread to ban/update this method if they’re not fond of it rather than tell the supporters they need to do so and so even tho they’re using the same formula that’s been greenlit here for ages

I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I'm just sharing what I think should happen.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I am aware, I too was sharing my opinion hence the "personally think"

 

[Dalesean027]

wouldn't our rules on KE prevent this thing from being used (due to the sword being a mundane weight and not requiring superhuman strength to be carried)

much in the same way we don't give people who carry regular weapons while moving at high speed tier 7 ratings just because of the KE of carrying said object (then again i'm sure you could make the same argument about jumping feats where the person is of a mundane weight and why those are allowed)

i think as things are written RIGHT NOW this wouldn't be allowed

Pretty sure this is the case yeah

 

[DavidTPPM]

Pretty sure this is the case yeah

I addressed that here:

Jokes aside the rule mentions this:

And Naruto does kinda do that. Ohnoki amps Ay's speed specifically by lowering his weight. Meaning the correlation between speed and mass is clearly shown.

 

[Dalesean027]

I addressed that here:

Can you fully link a clip to the feat or an actual full set of scans or both because none of the calcs sourced in the blog in the OP have working links or clips

 

[DavidTPPM]

Can you fully link a clip to the feat or an actual full set of scans or both because none of the calcs sourced in the blog in the OP have working links or clips

Wait are you sure? The links all work for me.
This is the anime clip.
Here's the manga in a new link.

Does the Ohnoki scan I sent here work for you?

 

[Dalesean027]

Wait are you sure? The links all work for me.
This is the anime clip.
Here's the manga in a new link.

Does the Ohnoki scan I sent here work for you?

Yea nope this doesn't work

 

[DragoZeroNova]

They do all work for me, maybe it's something on Dale's end? Edit: Oh lol I thought he meant the scans didn't work my bad

 

[God_of_perversion]

The premise is simple. We got an accepted calculation for Sasuke lifting his sword at rel+ speeds that goes up to class P. This thread is to decide whether we can use it or not. I'm not going to go into who this scales to and who it doesn't since I plan on enslaving someone else to do that if the feat is deemed usable.

Arguments in favor of using the calculation:

• The feat is blatantly a "lifting" feat as it's literally Sasuke lifting object very fast
• The value is not derived from striking or destruction but rather pure acceleration and mass.
• As far as I can tell it's mathematically correct and doesn't seem to break any rules
• It's very similar to another feat linked as an example which was made by a CGM and accepted by another CGM (you could even argue this is way more straightforward since this is lifting and that is jumping), and if that works this should too

Arguments against using the calculation:

• It's really silly so @Kaydee1648 thinks it'll never pass

I'm going to update the argument lists if anyone brings anything new to the table but for now this is all I can think of.

Also I'm putting this in a CRT for now as the calculation itself isn't really what's being discussed but rather the nature of the feat. Less of "is the calculation correct" and more so "is the feat valid to be used". But if enough people think it should be a CGM discussion thread then I'm down to have it changed.

"You should totally use it, you're the goat David!" (agree):
"It's not actually a bicep curl man, he has horrible technique!" (disagree):

Wait does that mean deltarune's LS scaling can be increased to ridiculous degrees too

 

[DavidTPPM]

Yea nope this doesn't work

Why

 

[Dalesean027]

Why

For this same reason

wouldn't our rules on KE prevent this thing from being used (due to the sword being a mundane weight and not requiring superhuman strength to be carried)

much in the same way we don't give people who carry regular weapons while moving at high speed tier 7 ratings just because of the KE of carrying said object (then again i'm sure you could make the same argument about jumping feats where the person is of a mundane weight and why those are allowed)

i think as things are written RIGHT NOW this wouldn't be allowed

Literally doesn't meet out criteria for a valid LS feat

 

[AThe1412]

Wait does that mean deltarune's LS scaling can be increased to ridiculous degrees too

That would require specific circumstances to happen. Also, don't derail the thread.

 

[KingTempest]

This sound like some bullshit ngl

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

This sound like some bullshit ngl

Bad mouthing a CRT's proposal is unbecoming behaviour for staff, it invites unneeded negative energy as well as is counter productive, please refrain

 

[DavidTPPM]

For this same reason

Literally doesn't meet out criteria for a valid LS feat

Did you not see my response? The very same rule states that this DOES meet the criteria if the correlation between mass and speed is established in-universe. Which it IS in Naruto. The speed at which something can be moved depends on its mass.

How does this not meet that standard?

 

[Saqphire]

Did you not see my response? The very same rule states that this DOES meet the criteria if the correlation between mass and speed is established in-universe. Which it IS in Naruto. The speed at which something can be moved depends on its mass.

Don't forget these scenarios as well:

• Lee tossing his weights to gain speed
• Madara tossing the Six Paths gourney to increase flight speed

 

[Saqphire]

Put me as neutral, leaning to disagree for the record. The weight of lifting a katana at relativistic+ speeds is within special relativity, the same phenomena that dictates that nothing with mass can go faster than light and yet we have faster than light speed feats in the verse from people with mass. If this gets accepted, then we pretty much gotta discard the FTL and above feats due to them breaking the theory of relativity. You can't have both slices of the cake in that aspect is what I'm tryna say.

Also, I'm worried about LS anti-feats down the line such as Naruto struggling to lift the stone statue in his Sage Mode training, something obviously less heavy than a small moon.

Also also, I especially disagree with the (unironic) incredulity that's going on here in these comments. We are using physics to calculate feats in the first place, and speed being what increases relative mass is literally within physics. Sure, lifting a katana on it's own at "normal katana-lifting" speed would obviously not grant Class P results, but Sasuke is lifting it while trying to reflect light-speed attacks so he's also lifting relativistic mass, not just a katana's mass.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Also, I'm worried about LS anti-feats down the line such as Naruto struggling to lift the stone statue in his Sage Mode training, something obviously less heavy than a small moon.

What I was thinking. Like, even if this was legit, wouldn’t it just be an outlier? I mean, this tier of characters having lifting power on the level of benching moons is not at all reconcilable with general portrayal.

 

[Nerd1435]

Why are we even using speed characters move their body parts at, for lifting strength, if movements like this aren't considered for AP unless it was explicitly specified to be moving at Relativistic speed and thus has immense Kinetic energy?

Furthermore, the speed used here is something estimated from the art, not the objective truth.

It matters because how close the value is to light speed.

Give it slight changes in parameters and this same instance can blow up to FTL.

"Mifune's movement
Mifune moved his sword approximately 90°, from his hips to in front of his face

He's an elderly 170 cm tall man. Using the wiki's linked human proportion calculator tells us his upper limb should be 71.6 cm or 0.716 m

Mifune's movement = (0.716 m * 2 * 3.14) * (90/360) = 1.12412 meters

Sasuke's movement
Sasuke moved his sword directly from his hips to slightly above his head. Essentially his entire body length.

He's a 168 cm tall teenager. That makes his arm about 66.1 cm or 0.661 m, his head 24 cm or 0.24 m, and his chin to shoulder line 7.3 cm or 0.073 m"

Now assume Mifune moved his hand by 80° instead of 90° and Sasuke moving his hand by 10% more than whatever was assumed. What will happen? 0.85c becomes 0.85c*1.1*9/8 which is > c (and this is the speed of his hand, not even his sword, which for all we know may have moved even faster at some point if we are sticking to simply calculating it the way it's been done)

Now this suddenly becomes not viable.

 

[Dalesean027]

Did you not see my response? The very same rule states that this DOES meet the criteria if the correlation between mass and speed is established in-universe. Which it IS in Naruto. The speed at which something can be moved depends on its mass.

How does this not meet that standard?

Again not true, show a single scan where they mention the correlation of Sasuke's sword and arms feeling heavier or saying that he has overcome extreme weight and resistance as his as a product of his arms approaching higher velocities


Unless you have something like this in the context of sasuke then no the scan you have doesn't meet any of our criteria

 

[DavidTPPM]

Again not true, show a single scan where they mention the correlation of Sasuke's sword and arms feeling heavier or saying that he has overcome extreme weight and resistance as his as a product of his arms approaching higher velocities

I'm sorry but honestly wtf are you even saying? Why would the verse have to repeat this basic law of physics applies with every single scene?

The rule states "the fiction" correlates power and speed for KE which here would translate to mass and speed (since the rule isn't even about LS but about AP). Which happens all the time in Naruto and I've even given you a direct example correlating speed and mass. So did Saqphire with the Lee and Madara examples showing speed is heavily correlated with the mass of the target therefore it fulfills our standards.

The rule further says
"or if the character uses the fast moving object to attack" which once again, Sasuke literally does with his sword.

So this actually fulfills BOTH requirements despite only one being necessary.

Unless you have something like this in the context of sasuke then no the scan you have doesn't meet any of our criteria

Nothing in our rules even remotely states each individual feat has to give you a breakdown of how speed and power correlate, just that the fiction itself does so and/or that the character uses the object to attack.

So either point me to a rule that a story has to arbitrarily repeat the same thing it has established over and over again or it does not break anything

 

[DavidTPPM]

What I was thinking. Like, even if this was legit, wouldn’t it just be an outlier? I mean, this tier of characters having lifting power on the level of benching moons is not at all reconcilable with general portrayal.

This is a reasonable complaint however I'd say it has to be expanded upon.

Why are we even using speed characters move their body parts at, for lifting strength, if movements like this aren't considered for AP unless it was explicitly specified to be moving at Relativistic speed and thus has immense Kinetic energy?

Furthermore, the speed used here is something estimated from the art, not the objective truth.

It matters because how close the value is to light speed.

Give it slight changes in parameters and this same instance can blow up to FTL.

"Mifune's movement
Mifune moved his sword approximately 90°, from his hips to in front of his face

He's an elderly 170 cm tall man. Using the wiki's linked human proportion calculator tells us his upper limb should be 71.6 cm or 0.716 m

Mifune's movement = (0.716 m * 2 * 3.14) * (90/360) = 1.12412 meters

Sasuke's movement
Sasuke moved his sword directly from his hips to slightly above his head. Essentially his entire body length.

He's a 168 cm tall teenager. That makes his arm about 66.1 cm or 0.661 m, his head 24 cm or 0.24 m, and his chin to shoulder line 7.3 cm or 0.073 m"

Now assume Mifune moved his hand by 80° instead of 90° and Sasuke moving his hand by 10% more than whatever was assumed. What will happen? 0.85c becomes 0.85c*1.1*9/8 which is > c (and this is the speed of his hand, not even his sword, which for all we know may have moved even faster at some point if we are sticking to simply calculating it the way it's been done)

Now this suddenly becomes not viable.

This isn't. Appealing to the idea that it could possibly break the worst most nonsensical rule we have on the wiki under different circumstances is just silly.

For one, you can literally say this about ANY KE or LS feat. Yeah if any feat was ftl it wouldn't be viable, but it isn't FTL.

Second of all, the entire logic is just funny. "You see if Sasuke was STRONGER we would actually index him as WEAKER".
If this illustrates anything it's how goofy our FTL KE standards are where moving an object at 0.8c is 7-B while moving it slightly faster somehow reduces it to 9-C.

 

[Nerd1435]

This isn't. Appealing to the idea that it could possibly break the worst most nonsensical rule we have on the wiki under different circumstances is just silly.

For one, you can literally say this about ANY KE or LS feat. Yeah if any feat was ftl it wouldn't be viable, but it isn't FTL.

You cannot say the same thing about any KE or lifting strength feat because most of the time, you are far enough from light speed that you can give some sort of safe estimation by taking a "lowball", and sometimes, the speed is specifically spoonfed.

If it is close enough to light speed that slight changes to how you treat the feat would push it to FTL, it becomes unusable.

And the point of this thread is to apply it on the wiki, so of course you'd have to follow the standards of this wiki, regardless of whether you disagree or not.

Your disagreement can be valid but you'd have to change the standard in this wiki first.

KE and LS (constant force acting) should be treated the same way because of how people calc these feats on wiki

stating the obvious: F can be rewritten as m*v*dv/dx for our purpose, and thats m*v*dv=F*dx which is basically what was used in the calc, regardless of whether if was "F=ma" or "F=KE/d"

Second of all, the entire logic is just funny. "You see if Sasuke was STRONGER we would actually index him as WEAKER".
If this illustrates anything it's how goofy our FTL KE standards are where moving an object at 0.8c is 7-B while moving it slightly faster somehow reduces it to 9-C.

Again, your disagreement can be valid but the standard needs to be changed first before feats like this can be considered legit on this site

 

[Dalesean027]

I'm sorry but honestly wtf are you even saying? Why would the verse have to repeat this basic law of physics applies with every single scene?

its not once established the phenomena even happens once for the characters that approach these high speed, heck at least having it listed or shown to be something that consistently occurs even if not stated would be better than nothing but naruto has nothing to justify this and the sword he's swinging is something a person can regularly lift wirh as little weight as the sword he has.

The rule states "the fiction" correlates power and speed for KE which here would translate to mass and speed (since the rule isn't even about LS but about AP). Which happens all the time in Naruto and I've even given you a direct example correlating speed and mass. So did Saqphire with the Lee and Madara examples showing speed is heavily correlated with the mass of the target therefore it fulfills our standards.

Notice how lee actually has the exact problem I mentioned he took off weights to get faster yet it ignores how in physics the faster you go the heavier you get and the more weight you're fighting against, Lee establishes the opposite for Naruto that high speeds has no bearing on an increase of forces exerted on the body to try and slow them down as they get to higher and higher speeds, he just takes off weights and is faster with no other real levels of real world physics applied outside of just basic less weight = lighter = faster which sure is true to a degree but in fact does not support the point you're trying to make when trying to scale LS for someone just swinging a regular sword fast which is already against our policy

 

[KingTempest]

Bad mouthing a CRT's proposal is unbecoming behaviour for staff, it invites unneeded negative energy as well as is counter productive, please refrain

“Unneeded negative energy” When the thread is giving bench press mountain for swinging a sword the weight of a broom stick. It sounds like some bullshit

 

[Damage3245]

In the interest of consistency I must ask, what other Lifting Strength feats does Sasuke or characters comparable to Sasuke have?

 

[DavidTPPM]

its not once established the phenomena even happens once for the characters that approach these high speed,

Wdym "for these high speeds"? There isn't any rule that specifically talks about speeds exceeding a certain level that would apply here. The ONLY rule we have states exactly this

Kinetic Energy based on Movement Speed is case by case: Fiction often treats the speed with which a character can move himself as unrelated to their attack power. As such feats like just running or carrying a small object, like another character, should only be used if the fiction has made clear that the speed of the movement correlates to the character's power or if the character uses the fast moving object to attack

The problem is LITERALLY VERBATIM said to be that fiction often treats speed as unrelated to power, and as such we need evidence that a specific work of fiction correlates these 2.

This EXACTLY what I have shown to be the case in Naruto. Not only is it directly stated that lowering one's weight increases their speed. But one of the most famous scenes in the entirety of Naruto is a characters growing faster by removing mass from his body.

heck at least having it listed or shown to be something that consistently occurs even if not stated would be better than nothing but naruto has nothing to justify this and the sword he's swinging is something a person can regularly lift wirh as little weight as the sword he has.

There's nothing except the 3 examples that we have shown one of which has a direct statement.

Notice how lee actually has the exact problem I mentioned he took off weights to get faster yet it ignores how in physics the faster you go the heavier you get and the more weight you're fighting against, Lee establishes the opposite for Naruto that high speeds has no bearing on an increase of forces exerted on the body to try and slow them down as they get to higher and higher speeds,

What??? The sheer fact that removing weight from his body makes Lee faster literally PROVES that.

If high speed had "no bearing on an increase of forces exerted on the body to try and slow them down" then Lee would be able to move at his top speed even with his weighs on, and Ay wouldn't get any benefit from getting lighter.

he just takes off weights and is faster with no other real levels of real world physics applied outside of just basic less weight = lighter = faster which sure is true to a degree but in fact does not support the point you're trying to make when trying to scale LS for someone just swinging a regular sword fast which is already against our policy

Not only does it support exactly that but it undeniably fulfills our policy.
The entire policy is based on this
"Fiction often treats the speed with which a character can move himself as unrelated to their attack power."

Which is why it's expected to show that the fiction DOES correlate them:
"should only be used if the fiction has made clear that the speed of the movement correlates to the character's power"

Which Naruto DOES.

So again, either there is some additional policy that has not been mentioned which this is against, or it doesn't go against any. So can you show me a policy that this breaks?

 

[DavidTPPM]

In the interest of consistency I must ask, what other Lifting Strength feats does Sasuke or characters comparable to Sasuke have?

Oh this totally can be an outlier. I think that'd be a conversation for a different time though as looking through other feats to support it just for the calculation to be discarded completely would be a huge waste of time.

(although technically speaking rather than searching for supportive feats I think it might be better to search for anti-feats instead. Since technically due to how dumb the feat is, any high speed movement that involves an object would technically be supportive evidence. Like Konohamaru dodging lightning while holding a kunai or something goofy like that)

 

[Saqphire]

In the interest of consistency I must ask, what other Lifting Strength feats does Sasuke or characters comparable to Sasuke have?

I had already mentioned one, but there is an accepted one of Naruto throwing the giant rhino at Class G-M

 

[KingTempest]

I had already mentioned one, but there is an accepted one of Naruto throwing the giant rhino at Class G-M

A literal million times weaker than the sword feat