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Changing "Possibly" Low 1-C from Saint Seiya.

TheUnshakableOne

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This thread from the past established a possibly "Low 1-C/5D" rating scaling to the solid, actually 5D/Low 1-C Arayashiki (8th sense/stage of consciousness)

Sec. 1.) The Reason for Solid 5D Rating;

This Author explanation;

hvN6U0S.jpeg


但し、聖衣がいくら進化してもそれを使いこなす聖闘士の小宇宙が高まりが伴わなければ、真の力を発揮することができないのじゃ。

However, no matter how much the Cloth evolves, it's only if the Saint raises their cosmo accordingly that its true power is revealed.

星矢たちが神聖衣を使うことができたのは、阿頼耶識をも超える次元にまで小宇宙を高めることができたからだということを忘れてはならんぞ。

Don't forget that Seiya and the others were only able to use their God Cloths because they raised their cosmo to a level beyond even the Arayashiki.

With this explanation I believe we should drop the possibly rating for solid low 1-C/5D




Sec. 2.) The Above Baseline

based upon the above scan (the moment Seiya Awakens a God Cloth) they should be 1 countable infinity above baseline 5D/Low 1-C




Sec. 3.) The Result of The Changes

The scaling is already on the profiles. Just this crt is to change it from a "possibly" rating to guaranteed rating of 5D/Low 1-C (1x countable infinity above baseline 5D)

The scaling starts at God Cloths. Therefore the justifications should be say something like

"Raised his Cosmos to a level beyond the Arayashiki (8th sense) to awaken a God Cloth."

This is of course in addition to other justifications on profiles


The affected stats are AP, Striking Strength, and Durability.




Will update this once every couple days

AGREES:

DISAGREES:

Counter arguments aganist the OP

Surrebuttal to counter arguments

Edit: Hasty12345 reminded me that Next Dimension retcons the 3x infinity boost to a 1 time countable infinity boost. So I changed that scan out to the Next Dimension scan, and corrected the wording.



Sec. 4.) An Alternative

@Hasty12345 is suggesting an alternative.

Based upon this scan

yr8Slxr.jpeg


His alternative is that this scan establishes a relationship between the Soul and Cosmos.

Arayashiki is a state of existence that achieves 5D HDE mind and soul.

Using the scan here he is suggesting a user has to have 5D cosmos if they have a 5D soul.

Then you apply the God Cloth infinity multiplier from there for 1x countable infinity above baseline 5D.
 
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Low 1-C comes from the Underworld being able to house 8th Sense souls, the possibly comes from the 5th dimensional size of the Underworld having statements of being infinite but it being unclear if that extends to the 5th dimensional axis.

I'm not sure if God Cloths being a level beyond the 8th Sense resolves this issue.

Basically what we would be saying is the 8th Sense is 5D "stuff" and God Cloths have an infinite amount of that "stuff" trying to bypass the need for a significantly sized 5D cosmological structure.

I think I'm going to have to disagree based on the current evidence, I'm not sure we can bypass cosmological aspect of the scaling like this.
 
Low 1-C comes from the Underworld being able to house 8th Sense souls, the possibly comes from the 5th dimensional size of the Underworld having statements of being infinite but it being unclear if that extends to the 5th dimensional axis.

I'm not sure if God Cloths being a level beyond the 8th Sense resolves this issue.

Basically what we would be saying is the 8th Sense is 5D "stuff" and God Cloths have an infinite amount of that "stuff" trying to bypass the need for a significantly sized 5D cosmological structure.

I think I'm going to have to disagree based on the current evidence, I'm not sure we can bypass cosmological aspect of the scaling like this.
The Author quote says beyond the level of Aryashiki; not the cosmos of the Arayashiki

Specifically saying the level of cosmos exceeds that level of existence. Not exceeding the cosmos of the 8th sense (which is less than the level of existence)

"Don't forget that Seiya and the others were only able to use their God Cloths because they raised their cosmo to a level beyond even the Arayashiki."

阿頼耶識 = Arayashiki
 
I read the CRT, what I take issue is you're not tackling the core issue of why we have the possibly rating.

Low 1-C comes from Hades and the UW containing the souls of the dead and 8th Sense users:

'''Multiverse level+''' , possibly '''Low Complex Multiverse level''', (Created and actively sustains the [ endless Underworld], the realm that souls travel to after death, [ transcending time] [ and space in the process]. Easily dealt with [[Pegasus Seiya]] and the other God Cloth Saints by exerting his cosmo. Clashed with [[Athena (Saint Seiya)|Athena]].)
 
I read the CRT, what I take issue is you're not tackling the core issue of why we have the possibly rating.

Low 1-C comes from Hades and the UW containing the souls of the dead and 8th Sense users:

'''Multiverse level+''' , possibly '''Low Complex Multiverse level''', (Created and actively sustains the [ endless Underworld], the realm that souls travel to after death, [ transcending time] [ and space in the process]. Easily dealt with [[Pegasus Seiya]] and the other God Cloth Saints by exerting his cosmo. Clashed with [[Athena (Saint Seiya)|Athena]].)

Yes, and this crt is because theres a stronger argument different from that. Think if it as replacing the reasoning.

Instead of saying "possibly" because of that crt

This crt is saying that there is a solid 5D rating because God Cloths have a cosmos that scales above the level of existence the Arayashiki is at. Which should yield a solid rating without a possibly rating
 
What in trying to say is that

The size of the UW is irrelevant here.

Arayashiki is 5D stuff (Already accepted)

God cloths require power that goes beyond that 5D stuff. (New justification for a solid 5D/Low 1-C rating)

Think of the title as click bait lol
 
This crt is saying that there is a solid 5D rating because God Cloths have a cosmos that scales above the level of existence the Arayashiki is at. Which should yield a solid rating without a possibly rating
Which goes back to my initial comment where I explain why I don't think it's sufficient to bypass the need of a significant 5D cosmological structure to scale to low 1-C.

It's clear that God Cloth users don't "reach" a higher level of existence literally, even if their cosmo is on a higher level to that of 8th Sense users.

Furthermore, 8th Sense souls are 5D, so wouldn't reaching a "higher plane" beyond that be 6D?
 
I read the CRT, what I take issue is you're not tackling the core issue of why we have the possibly rating.

Low 1-C comes from Hades and the UW containing the souls of the dead and 8th Sense users:

'''Multiverse level+''' , possibly '''Low Complex Multiverse level''', (Created and actively sustains the [ endless Underworld], the realm that souls travel to after death, [ transcending time] [ and space in the process]. Easily dealt with [[Pegasus Seiya]] and the other God Cloth Saints by exerting his cosmo. Clashed with [[Athena (Saint Seiya)|Athena]].)

Read the author's comment.

The proof is literally in the pudding if the translation can be verified. (I recommend kanji matching to see what other possible definitions could be available)
 
Which goes back to my initial comment where I explain why I don't think it's sufficient to bypass the need of a significant 5D cosmological structure to scale to low 1-C.

It's clear that God Cloth users don't "reach" a higher level of existence literally, even if their cosmo is on a higher level to that of 8th Sense users.

Furthermore, 8th Sense souls are 5D, so wouldn't reaching a "higher plane" beyond that be 6D?
There isnt any proof for 6D stuff here.

A levek beyond Arayashiki is pretty vague on its own

Also your misunderstanding me

So the Arayashikis level is 5D. Its 5D soul and mind stuff

A user must raise their cosmos beyond the level of Arayashiki.

Which we go back and see seiya raising his Cosmos multiple infinities to awaken a god cloth.

Im taking the author saying "level of Arayashiki" to mean a reference to its state of existence/being; not the users Cosmos level at the 8th sense level.

So my extrapolation is that they end up multiple infinities beyond the state of Arayashikis existence with their cosmos alone

The god cloth also isnt a change of a characters state of existence/being but cosmos level. So their souls and mind wouldn't get bigger from going god cloth. Its a simple power up not a change in state of being
 
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Edited my comment. Hopefully that clears up the misunderstanding i think we're having?
 
Read the author's comment.
Bold of you to assume I haven't read it when I have been refuting it...

For the record, it's also not an "author statement", it's a QnA segment answered from the perspective of Aries Shion, similar to the Usopp Gallery from One Piece if you're familiar.

There's a few issues here:
Which we go back and see seiya raising his Cosmos multiple infinities to awaken a god cloth.
Not sure where "multiple" comes from, ND confirms it is only required to raise your cosmo to infinity with divine blood on your cloth. The Athena quote here is an echo effect, she's not saying "raise your cosmo infinitely then dot hat again then again and THEN you've reached the ultimate degree".

Im taking levek of Arayashiki to mean its state of existence not the users Cosmos level
They're intrinsically connected, Cosmo generates the soul and binds it to the body or other objects like statues or cloths. You can't have 5D souls without 5D cosmo.

The core issue is whether or not a 5D entity with a 5D power source when raised to have an infinite amount of that power source qualifies as having a solid Low 1-C rating. I don't think it does, I think it's prone to hyperbole and wishy washy semantics to try and bypass the fact the UW lacks sufficient evidence to have a solid rating. We're essentially saying these characters are so strong they have the ability to destroy a structure that doesn't provably exist within the verse.
 
Bold of you to assume I haven't read it when I have been refuting it...

For the record, it's also not an "author statement", it's a QnA segment answered from the perspective of Aries Shion, similar to the Usopp Gallery from One Piece if you're familiar.

Whut I didnt see that part. So is this even canon? I only saw the 1 panel

There's a few issues here:

Not sure where "multiple" comes from, ND confirms it is only required to raise your cosmo to infinity with divine blood on your cloth. The Athena quote here is an echo effect, she's not saying "raise your cosmo infinitely then dot hat again then again and THEN you've reached the ultimate degree".

Would still ne 1 countable infinity above baseline. But I never took it as an echo affect. Thats also hard to convey on paper, but completely forgot about that ND statement. Thats a gotcha for sure 🥴

They're intrinsically connected, Cosmo generates the soul and binds it to the body or other objects like statues or cloths. You can't have 5D souls without 5D cosmo.

I know the scans your referring too. Is that scan accepted on the wiki? Ill admit been out of touch with wiki activities

The core issue is whether or not a 5D entity with a 5D power source when raised to have an infinite amount of that power source qualifies as having a solid Low 1-C rating. I don't think it does, I think it's prone to hyperbole and wishy washy semantics to try and bypass the fact the UW lacks sufficient evidence to have a solid rating. We're essentially saying these characters are so strong they have the ability to destroy a structure that doesn't provably exist within the verse.

A character can have Low 1-C Attack Potency without having Low 1-C Range or a Low 1-C cosmology to destroy because they just lack the range to do that.


But if this panel is not even canon. Then this crt is a bust. So theres no point in even debating the rest of this until thats figured out

Edit #9999: what's the panel from. I need to verify the canoncity of this statement
 
Minor note, this link is broken on my end.
Are you able to close this? I made a rookie mistake lol

I should of verified the primary crutch of my argument, that one Statements i thought was WoG, canoncity first before posting this, but i misled myself by accident 😔

I might ask to reopen this at much later time in the future though FYI if the statement is canon that is

Thank you and I apologize ti the staff that I messaged.
 
please don’t close this yet, a brief discussion of the canonicity of the evidence is appropriate.
Eh it might take some time to get hands on that

Also I feel ashamed amd embarrassed by this mistake


Edit #99999; i also don't want this blowing up with 9 pages of comments to find out it's non canon, or of it is canon. I dont want it to get too big that staff don't want to read and look at it....
 
I don't think the canonicity of the statement itself merits questioning. It comes from a Shion QnA found in an issue of the monthly Saint Seiya Tokumori, which is an official publication by Shueisha.

In addition, the statement in question just reinforces what we already knew. The God Cloth Saints are stronger than 8th Sense users like Shaka, this should be obvious. This narrative is consistent throughout the franchise. With the rare exception of miracles, humans can't fight gods, unless they're God Cloth users or divinely amped in some way.

As for the scaling... I buy it. So the Low 1-C rating does come from cosmological elements. But given that the 8th Sense allows for one's Cosmo to reach 5D, Cosmo beyond that shouldn't be any weaker. Meaning, God Cloth Cosmo should at least be infinite 5D, which would be Low 1-C, so I agree with the rating. The layers are a bit more dubious though
 
I don't think the canonicity of the statement itself merits questioning. It comes from a Shion QnA found in an issue of the monthly Saint Seiya Tokumori, which is an official publication by Shueisha.

In addition, the statement in question just reinforces what we already knew. The God Cloth Saints are stronger than 8th Sense users like Shaka, this should be obvious. This narrative is consistent throughout the franchise. With the rare exception of miracles, humans can't fight gods, unless they're God Cloth users or divinely amped in some way.

As for the scaling... I buy it. So the Low 1-C rating does come from cosmological elements. But given that the 8th Sense allows for one's Cosmo to reach 5D, Cosmo beyond that shouldn't be any weaker. Meaning, God Cloth Cosmo should at least be infinite 5D, which would be Low 1-C, so I agree with the rating. The layers are a bit more dubious though
Canoncity aside

I need to edit my layers.

The Athena echo argument aside too. ND would technically ne a retcon to 1 countable infinity above baseline 5D.

So I meed to admit im wrong and edit that in lol. Ill do that later

I got the documents so Im analyzing its Canoncity later
 
Will update the OP soon. Got all the information I need. Then ill do a follow up comment to continue the debate. I been pretty busy lately.
 
Low 1-C comes from the Underworld being able to house 8th Sense souls, the possibly comes from the 5th dimensional size of the Underworld having statements of being infinite but it being unclear if that extends to the 5th dimensional axis.
If the higher dimensional Universe/World/Dimension has been stated to be of infinite size, it is considered of significant size (or same size) across all dimensions unless there is reason for it to be considered of uneven size only for higher dimensional length (e.g. use of compactified dimensions).

That said, i agree with solid rating.
 
Yeah, I did brought this in that same thread that various staff members hold differing opinions on this matter (similar to the 'Bigger than 2-A' standard) and suggested we need a clear, codified standard that doesn't rely on varying interpretations or opinions regarding it. Agnaa mentioned he would work on this (yet haven't). Regardless, I maintain my stance on Low 1-C. The evidence required here should be regarding dimensions to be of insignificant size, rather than the other way around.
 
I just want to make sure i clear up any misunderstandings.

Currently the Arayashiki is accepted to be 5D baseline as a state pf existence/being not in Cosmo level/AP/Striking Strength.

My argument is that the Word of God here isnt saying "1 countable infinity beyond the cosmos/AP/Striking Strength of an 8th sense user"

But the interpretation leans more towards saying beyond the existence of the Arayashiki. So my argument is 1 countable infinity beyond the state that is Arayashiki based upon the wording.

If the WoG wanted to specifically say the level of cosmos an 8th sense user would have. The wording would be pretty different.

So my focus isnt scaling from cosmological structures but the classical scaling of X >Y




Anyways addressing canocity

It appears Kurumada wrote these little QnAs himself

So they are canon



Its the 2nd and 3rd images in that sloppily put together album. Using my phone. But you can see his name in big Kanji so you cant miss it lol.




Edit: @Hasty12345 was suggesting an alternative.

Based upon this scan

yr8Slxr.jpeg


His alternative was more of a UES relationship.

Arayashiki is a state of existence that achieves 5D HDE mind and soul.

Using the scan here he is suggesting a user has to have 5D cosmos if they have a 5D soul.

Then you apply the God Cloth infinity multiplier from there for 1x countable infinity above baseline 5D.
 
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I'm not sure either. Looking at the arguments it looks like the Possibly rating is not ridiculous at least.
 
What's your current stance atm? Im getting ready to do some updates. Currently it seems like your aganist it? Are you still aganist it? I know we had some debate in between. Dunno if I got through and I saw you purpose an alternative argument for a solid rating different from mine. Or could I be misunderstanding you? Just asking for clarification
 
What's your current stance atm? Im getting ready to do some updates. Currently it seems like your aganist it? Are you still aganist it? I know we had some debate in between. Dunno if I got through and I saw you purpose an alternative argument for a solid rating different from mine. Or could I be misunderstanding you? Just asking for clarification
Depends if the wiki allows for an infinite multiplier from a 5D power source to qualify for low 1-C.
 
Depends if the wiki allows for an infinite multiplier from a 5D power source to qualify for low 1-C.
Unless im not getting what your saying.

Wouldn't this just fall under multipliers?

 
Yeah, I did brought this in that same thread that various staff members hold differing opinions on this matter (similar to the 'Bigger than 2-A' standard) and suggested we need a clear, codified standard that doesn't rely on varying interpretations or opinions regarding it. Agnaa mentioned he would work on this (yet haven't). Regardless, I maintain my stance on Low 1-C. The evidence required here should be regarding dimensions to be of insignificant size, rather than the other way around.
What's your current stance so I can accurately mark it down later?
 
I will have to wait till the current staff thread regarding size of higher dimensions is resolved
My argument for this thread is using a different argument than the size argument.

The old previous crt that established the possibly rating used size as an argument
 
As an outsider I'm a little lost.

What is a Cosmo, what is a Cloth, and why are either of them 5D?
 
As an outsider I'm a little lost.

What is a Cosmo, what is a Cloth, and why are either of them 5D?
Cosmo is the UES of this series.

A cloth is what the main character faction calls their armors. The “God Cloths” mentioned here are armor which signify the user is in the same realm of power, with Gods.

The argument presented here, stems firstly from how Arayashiki (8th Sense) Users, have minds and souls that are 5D. This is currently accepted. Arayshiki/ the 8th sense is essentially an extra sense which allows one to control their soul after they die.

The first argument is that, God cloth users have Cosmo infinitely beyond the Arayashiki. So in other words, their power source is infinitely beyond a 5D “thing”

The second argument comes from how Cosmo directly generates the soul. Thus, it generates a 5D “object”.
God Cloth users have infinite amounts of Cosmo, so they have a power source on an infinite 5D scale.

Currently, God Cloths users are considered possibly Low1-C via scaling to a structure that is infinitely larger then these 5D souls, endless to 5D minds. But there isn’t explicit proof it’s infinite in the fifth direction.

The thread aims to argue God level characters are powered by a source that is infinitely more potent then a 5D thing, and thus Low 1-C concretely.
 
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