Super Mario Bros: The Ultimate 3-A (and above!) CRT

[Galactidot]

Agree with 64s feat, though I feel like i should now bring up how mario kart world can provide some good support solidifying the painting world sizes + their actual creation considering we see a shooting star (directly treated as power stars in the series as well in games like galaxy and party, i can probably get scans for this later but i dont currently have them on hand) in CUTSCENE directly create a parallel world within the stained glass which is directly shown be an obvious nod to 64 with how you enter it, I made this imgur outlining more info about the mirrored world and its scope. Said parallel mirror mode world also contains this. Should also be noted that the black jewels japanese statements used in this very states it wants to make a kingdom out of the created world, this is quite similar to 64s wording further showing the that it can be both creation + conquering, and its made very clear in new statements even for 3d all stars that they are treated as entirely new worlds.

I've also think a lot of the anti feat arguments are rather weak and can be easily addressed by higher feats performed from the very same games they are in, with as foxy sonic master said, a lot also being gameplay as well.

I also want to say i completely disagree with varies in mario. theres no justifiable reason for them to get massively weaker, they very clearly are stronger then their past selves and even manuals acknowledge them getting stronger by the games passing. mario picross' tie in manga meant to go with the game in japan also directly shows this. they say they havent fought a bit to justify some tutorials and reintroducing mechanics in sequels of rpgs but this shouldnt justify such a massive downgrade. It's either full upgrade, or not.

i just skimmed it for now but im iffy on the mario party 2 creation stuff.

Antasma was already accepted on another crt i made, its just treated as an outlier onsite, but obviously I agree the scaling is pretty obvious considering real world antasma is literal fodder compared to mario and is on par with base dreambert who cant break nightmares chunks or stand a chance against base bowser.

Agree with culex, its made very clear that he his power was inherited by what makes up all creation itself aka the universe which he also refers to as the "ultimate two", which are space and time.

Agree with black jewels feat, cosmic bodies within also further support it reaching cosmic level sizes, very clearly intended to be an alt reality.

disagree with dream depot being 2-a. its quite literally stated he was doing it 1 by 1, but still a low 2-c feat which is still relevant here.

One last thing that confuses me is why is this high 3-a, when most if not all of this should be low 2-c. dreams are already low 2-c, so antasma and dream depot should be low 2-c. and these worlds obviously have their own time within them, with mario 64 having levels directly dealing with it like tick tock clock, and culex inheriting the ultimate TWO which contextually referring to both time and space as his next lines show.

THIS is the stuff we should be looking at, this and Reclusa bro #notsponsored

 

[JPTheGamer]

BRUH.

It was my FIRST SCAN.

Look, if it makes you feel better, I do believe Bowser should be in the 3-A to Tier 2 range based on your evidence. However, I think there's still more proof needed for that.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Before I forget, there was an additional statement from the Complete Clear Guide also notes the Tower of the Wing Cap expands into the "Endless Sky".
"はてしなく広がる青空"


This should serve as supporting evidence for the bottomless abyss within Whomp's fortress, as also described here:

"岩から外に落ちると奈落の底なので注意"
Translation: “Be careful, because if you fall off the rock, you’ll go into the bottomless pit. (abyss)”.

Also, the JAP versions corroborate Bowser being the creator of the painting worlds;

Super Mario 64 Toad dialogue

Source: https://youtu.be/l3VwBQJN2ok&t=158 ああよかった。きてくれたんですね！ピーチひめも　ぼくたちもみんな「かべ」のなかにとじこめられちゃいました。 クッパは　パワースターをつかって「かべ」や「え」のなかにカイブツのくにをつくろうと　しています。スターをとりかえして！ 「スター」をいくつかとりかえしたら、クッパのとじたドアが　ひらきます。１かいの　４つのへやをさがし、すすんでください。 まずは、ヒダリがわのボムヘイの「え」のへやに　はいれます。このへやだけは　クッパのふういんを　のがれました。...

lucky-emile.fandom.com

クッパは　パワースターをつかって「かべ」や「え」のなかにカイブツのくにをつくろうと　しています。スターをとりかえして！
"Bowser is using the Power Stars to try and create worlds of monsters inside the 'walls' and 'paintings'. Take back the stars!"

All of this is backed up by the original manual I cited in the OP. This should be completely solid for Bowser being the creator of these worlds.

 

[Chariot190]

クッパは　パワースターをつかって「かべ」や「え」のなかにカイブツのくにをつくろうと　しています。スターをとりかえして！
"Bowser is using the Power Stars to try and create worlds of monsters inside the 'walls' and 'paintings'. Take back the stars!"

If you don't know Japanese at least a lil well, don't try to shove in words.
くに (国) is like country or land (sometimes loosely used for kingdom even depending on context), not worlds.
It's saying he's trying to create a kingdom or land within the walls, whether or not he's using the worlds as they pre-exist or he made them is completely unspecified.
And it most certainly isn't a context case of plural here either, so "worlds" is even more egregious.
It's 100% singular here.

The phrase is かいぶつのくに (怪物の国), which is literally "the monsters' land/country" as one place.

Japanese doesn't really force singular vs plural the way English does (there's no 's), but 国 in this context is naturally read as one realm/land, not lands. If it was multiple there'd be ways to convey and write that, but nah. Which makes it even more dubious for it to be him creating the worlds tbh given it's worded in a way that's him attempting to do something, but if it was "oh he made worlds" it wouldn't be "trying", he'd have already done so, which kind of confirms he didn't tbh.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Japanese doesn't really force singular vs plural the way English does (there's no 's), but 国 in this context is naturally read as one realm/land, not lands. If it was multiple there'd be ways to convey and write that, but nah. Which makes it even more dubious for it to be him creating the worlds tbh given it's worded in a way that's him attempting to do something, but if it was "oh he made worlds" it wouldn't be "trying", he'd have already done so, which kind of confirms he didn't tbh.

Me and @LuckyEmile discussed this at length, but my OP presents more evidence than just that.


“えのほかにかべのなかにもモンスターの　せかいがあります。あっ！これもっていって　ください。かくして　もってました”.
Where he does use the word "せかい".

This is also described by the manual itself:

"There, an entirely different world was spread out before him!"

"Painting World".

This is also when you enter Bob-Omb Battlefield;

"おおっと、ここはキケンなせんじょうの　どまんなか。 『え』のなかのせかいにはクッパが　めすんだパワースターがある。"
(Translation: “Whoa! This is right in the middle of a dangerous battlefield. Inside the world within this painting, there is a Power Star that Bowser has hidden.”)
As to your Bowser point, I think @LuckyEmile said it best;
LuckyEmilie Notes:
"He just says he's making them in the walls and paintings, not the wall and painting worlds. Like, if Toad works here, the fact there are worlds in there should be pretty normal for him for him to see them as those kind of worlds (and we've seen the use of "painting world" already, not like this terminology wouldn't exist for them), yet what stood out to him more was it was inside parts of the castle, which would imply the idea the paintings and walls just always had worlds in them wouldn't be the case."

 

[AlloyAmi]

I feel like my mario kart world point was a bit glossed over regarding the support for the creation which makes it stronger then ever considering its literally on screen.

Imma quote it so it can be seen again.

Agree with 64s feat, though I feel like i should now bring up how mario kart world can provide some good support solidifying the painting world sizes + their actual creation considering we see a shooting star (directly treated as power stars in the series as well in games like galaxy and party, i can probably get scans for this later but i dont currently have them on hand) in CUTSCENE directly create a parallel world within the stained glass which is directly shown be an obvious nod to 64 with how you enter it, I made this imgur outlining more info about the mirrored world and its scope. Said parallel mirror mode world also contains this.

But yeah I do think the other lines contextually show that he still created them in Japanese with the hazy maze cave line. I'd also wanna point out that this is very similar to the black jewel that also calls the realm it created both a world and kingdom that it then wants to make in them that this crt even uses:

さらに、黒い宝石は自分達の王国をつくろうとワリオ城を不思議な世界にしてしまいました
"Furthermore, the Black Jewel turned Wario Castle into a mysterious world in an attempt to create its own kingdom.”

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

I'm going to kill the US President

ArmorChompy Is not Suicidal to anyone reading, if this was deleted. It wasnt his doing

Anyways, I hard disagree with nintendo power being any good for being a lore reliable source. Goes for prima as well.

 

[Galactidot]

I feel like my mario kart world point was a bit glossed over regarding the support for the creation which makes it stronger then ever considering its literally on screen.

Imma quote it so it can be seen again.

But yeah I do think the other lines contextually show that he still created them in Japanese with the hazy maze cave line. I'd also wanna point out that this is very similar to the black jewel that also calls the realm it created both a world and kingdom that it then wants to make in them that this crt even uses:

Yeah like look at the imgur guys that stuff insane

 

[Chariot190]

Me and @LuckyEmile discussed this at length, but my OP presents more evidence than just that.

If you have faulty evidence, stop using it.
It doesn't matter if like 5% of it might be ok; if 95%, or ANY PERCENT for that matter isn't, you need to remove what isn't true or confirmed from your evidence as a whole and stick with actually counts.

You're actively making your own case a mess of incoherent points because it's filled to the brim with irrelevant or even incorrect information instead of what actually works.
And you most definitely do not twist wording and push things it straight up doesn't say as support. I'd be liable to report you for that even, if intentional, that's outright ban worthy; do not let me see that happen again.

All the same, that doesn't fix the actual problem: you claimed the scan said Bowser is "creating worlds".
It did not. You mistranslated it, and are now pivoting your claim to "well worlds exist anyway".
Nobody is disputing that worlds exist in some way or form. The dispute is your jump from "worlds exist in paintings/walls" to "Bowser created those worlds". You need to prove the latter explicitly.

“えのほかにかべのなかにもモンスターの　せかいがあります。あっ！これもっていって　ください。かくして　もってました”.
Where he does use the word "せかい".

Yes, except that line doesn't say he created them.
The line that gives responsibility of action to Bowser, is a line that says he's simply trying to create a country/kingdom/land.
The line that says that a world exists, isn't tied to him whatsoever.

Nobody is denying that there's worlds in some form, at least one or two here or there anyway, but that isn't your argument, you need to prove he made them.
Sure, worlds exist, which ones are actual worlds, different points in the main world (such as wing cap), and more, is unknown though, but...
This line does NOT automatically support "Bowser created the worlds". It supports "at least some worlds exist there".

You're proving the part nobody disagreed with, as if it's proof for what I called out or proof of your original claim.

This is also described by the manual itself:

"There, an entirely different world was spread out before him!"

Again: yes, a "different world" is there.

That sentence does not say:
1. Bowser made it
2. Bowser created it from scratch
3. Bowser conjured the dimensions
etc.

It only describes what Mario sees when entering, that being there do in fact be a world inside the paintings. This is world-existence text, not world-creation text. And you need to prove the latter, which is why you're even arguing this to begin with.

I also want to say stop taking liberties with your translations to make them sound stronger, it doesn't say "an entirely different", it simply says "another". So yes that oddly cropped scan that leaves out the rest of the dialogue does say another, so maybe it is its own pocket space? But it could just as easily be something akin to when they say a new world or another world like in Paper, RPGs, and more. I'd be willing to maybe let this one slide for that specific stage, but you're not doing any favors with the rest.

"Painting World".

Ok telling you right now, if I see another cropped image I'm gonna invoke the ol reliable and point out you're supposed to give the whole page per wiki rules unless you for whatever reason literally can not but we both know this is available off archive so why you're cropping I don't know.

But... A label/name doesn't grant creation?
Calling it a "painting world" just describes the location/portal/state mechanic. It doesn't mean the painting produced the world, and it definitely doesn't mean Bowser created it. And even worse, with a statement so vague, that doesn't actually mean a thing, need I remind you that various parts in Mario games are called "worlds" almost universally, even when they're part of the same full planetary mass or dimension.
World 8, Water World, Pipe World, etc.

This is also when you enter Bob-Omb Battlefield;

"おおっと、ここはキケンなせんじょうの　どまんなか。 『え』のなかのせかいにはクッパが　めすんだパワースターがある。"
(Translation: “Whoa! This is right in the middle of a dangerous battlefield. Inside the world within this painting, there is a Power Star that Bowser has hidden.”)

Perfect example of my point.

This says:
1. There is a world inside the painting
2. Bowser hid a Power Star there

It does NOT say: Bowser created that world.

If anything, it leans the opposite: it treats the world as a place he can stash shit inside, not something he's actively cooking up.

As to your Bowser point, I think @LuckyEmile said it best;
LuckyEmilie Notes:

No offense to him but if he wants to argue his points, he should come here to actually do so.
Regardless, that's not evidence. That's interpretation. And interpretation doesn't override what the Japanese actually says.
Of course I'm not going to say my stance is 100% hard fact either (even though it's the default based on what's actually said), but the burden on me isn't to disprove unknown conjecture, it's on you to prove the stance you want to push on wiki as confirmed fact.
The fact I can even point that out means you have yet to succeed in proving it not mere interpretive theory as if you did prove it, it wouldn't even be interpretative in the first place.

"He just says he's making them in the walls and paintings, not the wall and painting worlds.

This is literally an admittance to goalpost shifting btw.
My original callout was that whoever translated it as Bowser "creating the worlds" is wrong.
Yet now you (them?) are shifting to "making them in the walls and paintings".

Those are not the same claim.
Also, the actual line you originally used is:
"クッパは パワースターをつかって『かべ』や『え』のなかに かいぶつのくにを つくろうとしています"
Is something like
"Bowser is using the Power Stars, and is trying to make a monster country inside the walls and paintings".
Or whatever, you get it.

That is NOT: "Bowser is creating whole worlds".

"かいぶつのくに" additionally is one "monster country". It doesn't say "worlds", and it doesn't say he conjured the dimensions themselves. Which is consistent with "Bowser is trying to convert/claim/establish his land within those spaces", not that he created it.

Like, if Toad works here, the fact there are worlds in there should be pretty normal for him for him to see them as those kind of worlds (and we've seen the use of "painting world" already, not like this terminology wouldn't exist for them), yet what stood out to him more was it was inside parts of the castle, which would imply the idea the paintings and walls just always had worlds in them wouldn't be the case.

This is pure headcanon unfortunately.
Toad noticing "there are worlds in the walls/paintings" can be surprising even if it's technically true, because it's a plot device to explain gameplay to the player to begin. It doesn't force "there were never worlds there before".
You're taking a line, and going "how a line vibes" into some sort of solid fact. That's not how text works.

The worst part though, where does Toad say otherwise? I don't recall him ever saying they didn't know they existed or they're brand new, etc., and honestly, I'm liable to say they AREN'T brand new worlds given the existence of things like Whomps' Fortress and Bob-omb having clear pasts and history, multiple appearances throughout the verse outside of painting jumpings, characters that reference things like, well for example King Whomp/Big Whomp referencing how they act as roads and construction for people like Mario with an explicit "your", and more.
What your scans actually prove is not what you claim or need it to say:
1. What you've actually shown:
"Worlds (of some sort) exist inside paintings/walls"
"Bowser hid Power Stars in those worlds".
"There is a monster world in the walls/paintings".
"He is trying to establish a land of his own within these".
2. Not proven anywhere in your scans:
"Bowser created that shit".
"These worlds were created to begin with".

I want to focus on that second point for a sec actually, because "there are worlds inside paintings" does not mean "those worlds were created as new dimensions" or "didn't exist before".

In Mario, paintings warping you to a location is a long-running mechanic, and it often connects to places that already exist, not freshly conjured pocket universes.
A good example is Mario Odyssey, where you can jump into paintings that literally take Mario to the location depicted just like 64, including places that are obviously pre-existing (like the Mushroom Kingdom itself). This isn't some unheard-of metaphysical thing in verse, it's just a magic portal.
For reference for the Odyssey examples:


Mario 64 itself even gives you a very clean lil example of "world within the castle walls" clearly meaning "a place you get teleported to", not "whole ass brand new created universe": Mario Over the Rainbow.
https://youtu.be/U2lKml0ogbs

You enter what is functionally described as a "world" accessed from inside the castle (falling into said wall, much like Dire Dire Docks for another example of a stage entered the same way, so this isn't even a one-off), you get warped to an endless sky-looking area. But that doesn't mean it's a separate universe that got created inside a wall.
We know it's just a location elsewhere because if Mario falls, he physically drops back down into Peach's Castle courtyard. The game is straight-up showing you where he got warped to is still space connected to the castle's physical reality in this instance, despite also being entered and "located in the walls". This calls into question consistency and universal application to each stage, as if one isn't, how do we know the rest?

Same idea with some of the other stages too either way: Big Boo's Haunt is an obvious example where "world" is just a spooky location/space in a tiny cage, not evidence of a brand-new dimension being generated.

And this matters because Mario uses "world" casually a lot. It can mean:
a stage
a region
a location
a themed area
a "place" you're transported to,
and yes, even a different universe (though only time I can think of off the top of my head is Paper Mario).
And all but the last one exist in the same dimension.

So when shit says "a world inside the painting/wall", that doesn't actually entail "an alternate universe was created" by default. It is fully compatible with the far simpler reading: "there is a place accessible through the wall/painting". Which unlike the interpretation that these must have been newly created, we already factually know paintings can have worlds within that exist elsewhere in the same larger scope, new or old even.

Which loops back to that Toad example, whether he knows or not, paintings that warp to new lands and worlds exist regardless of Bowser, his "job", or knowledge on the subject, and more importantly, back to the main issue with your argument: you're trying to say "created" when the actual material only supports "accessible through a portal", "Bowser hid stars there", or "he wants to establish a dominion". This isn't the same thing.

I'm not going to get into the existence of something like Throwback Galaxy either, just know that I'm well aware of effectively every caveat, and ironically, is applicable with that abyss statement AND disproving it's creation.

If you want to prove this, you need a line that actually says something like uh idk, CTRL+F these or something similar?
"クッパが えのせかいを つくった"
"クッパが 世界を つくりだした"
"クッパが 作った せかい"

You don't have that. Until you do you're skipping the most important step even.

TLDR 2:
You got caught pushing a fake/bad translation, then tried to salvage it by posting scans that only say "worlds exist" when it's a completely different claim.
So either show an explicit "Bowser created the worlds/dimensions" line, or stop presenting your interpretation as canon.

 

[JJSliderman]

The Mario kart world one is definitely new, in case context is needed a power star falls into a painting at peach’s castle, and entering that painting spits you out in a flipped version of the world, including every track, the rainbow road, etc. which is at least an MSS feat if it did create a new world altogether, or even warped the existing world.

 

[Maniaunavailable]

how does this affect my goat paper mario? jk but agree with 64

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Some stuff has been popping up irl so it's gonna take a bit to respond

 

[Galactidot]

Yeah like look at the imgur guys that stuff insane

Also this one I got from @AlloyAmi

Boo imgur

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Well, well, well... I did recheck over some of my original sources, and I re-consulted some Japanese sources (including LuckyEmile, and lo and behold, I found some... interesting things.

If you have faulty evidence, stop using it.

I have not used any faulty evidence, and I'll prove it... again. Building off of what ZespeonGalaxy tried saying;

Anyways, I hard disagree with nintendo power being any good for being a lore reliable source. Goes for prima as well.

Really, now? Well, let's go back to the credits of the Player's Guide, shall we?



Who was the publisher? Oh, right... M. Arakawa... what a weird name... oh right, he was the PRESIDENT OF NOA!

And who else was credited? Who was the Senior Editor? That's right, ladies and gentlemen... Ms. Leslie Swan. Oh, who's that, you may ask? Oh, no one... expect the voice actor of Peach in Super Mario 64, who helped translate the English Script of Super Mario 64! And I bet Mr. @Chariot190 is going to tell me that "but she didn't have any developer contact!" REALLY? Because her history shows OTHERWISE! She WORKED with Miyamoto HERSELF on Super Mario 64!

Best Of 2025: "We Did Try To Keep 'Forest' In The Name" - How Mario 64's Princess Peach Helped Bring Animal Crossing To The West

Leslie Swan's journey from Nintendo Power to Nintendo legend

www.timeextension.com

"So when I went over and I was working on the localization, I would sit with Mr. Miyamoto and a translator and they would be going over the changes I had made and I would explain why I was making the changes, and one day, Mr. Miyamoto just said, 'Is Peach a bad name?' And I had to tell him, 'No, but you know she is called Princess Toadstool in the US'. I remember he said, 'Well, I really like Peach as her name'. So I came up with the idea to say, 'Why don't we call her Princess Peach Toadstool?' Then we could refer to her informally as Peach."

"...Later, though, when we were launching the Nintendo 64, we were doing a player's guide for Super Mario 64 (Nintendo Power also produced the player's guides) and I went in and told Gail, 'This is a really, really special game. We need to get a professional writing team on it'. Because we really didn't have a real localization team at Nintendo at that time. A few days later, I came in and she said to me, 'Do you have a passport?' and 'They want you to go to Kyoto and do the writing on this game.' I was like, 'Okay, I wasn't exactly suggesting myself for that role', but she just said, 'We'll free you up!' So that was my first real localization experience, and doing it in Kyoto was a really special experience."

On top of literally GOING TO JAPAN TO WRITE THE SCRIPT, Miyamoto recounts specifically WORKING on the English version of Super Mario 64 himself!

Super Mario 64 – 1996 Developer Interviews - shmuplations.com

The first race against Koopa the Quick. —Hugging the penguins, catching the rabbits… I loved all the little details you added that weren’t directly connected to the main game. It made me really happy to finally catch the rabbit—I walked around with him, tried releasing him… I played around with...

shmuplations.com

"There’s no particularly detailed background or anything, but yeah, it’s a given that Mario is an Italian-American from Brooklyn, New York. That voice was actually done by a professional voice actor. He did Mario’s voice five or six years ago, at a video game event. By the way, Mario talks a lot more in the American version of Mario 64. He says “Okie Dokie!” and more. Peach also speaks. We had more time before the American release, so we improved the game." (yes, this is talking about voice work in context, but still, he knew and worked on the English version).

"No official developer contact" my complete and utter ass. If THIS amount of evidence isn't enough for you, then this really confirms why this wiki took multiple years to get Master Roshi to moon level when we literally saw him do so on page.

Now, I first want to star on your Odyssey Painting point, which is flaws to it's very core.

In Mario, paintings warping you to a location is a long-running mechanic, and it often connects to places that already exist, not freshly conjured pocket universes.
A good example is Mario Odyssey, where you can jump into paintings that literally take Mario to the location depicted just like 64, including places that are obviously pre-existing (like the Mushroom Kingdom itself). This isn't some unheard-of metaphysical thing in verse, it's just a magic portal.

One, that "long running mechanic" started in Super Mario 64, pal. Two, this still would not in any way explain the Paintings in the various towers & moon paintings in Odyssey that allow you to replay (refight) certain events in the game. The paintings can do much more than just "take you to other places", they can and have shown to take you back to the past and allow you to experience various events (i.e time travel). The fact I have to explain to you shows that you don't know everything about the Paintings in Super Mario 64.

Mario 64 itself even gives you a very clean lil example of "world within the castle walls" clearly meaning "a place you get teleported to", not "whole ass brand new created universe": Mario Over the Rainbow.

That's going to be a resounding "you didn't pay attention the game" from me, chief. In all the worlds within the Paintings and Walls, all of them have a magic wave and exclusive sound effect in the course. And when you fall in any of them, including the "Rainbow Ride" stage (which, mark you, has the same skybox and whatnot as Winged Mario Over the Rainbow), you get tossed out of the painting. However, there are 4 or so (if memory serves) courses that are directly access via the castle; the Invisible Mario stage, the Secret Slide, and Winged Mario Over the Rainbow. There's a clear discinction between these Secret Stages and the Paintings and Walls of Super Mario 64.

We know it's just a location elsewhere because if Mario falls, he physically drops back down into Peach's Castle courtyard. The game is straight-up showing you where he got warped to is still space connected to the castle's physical reality in this instance, despite also being entered and "located in the walls". This calls into question consistency and universal application to each stage, as if one isn't, how do we know the rest?

Because he falls to Peach's Castle in Winged Mario Over the Rainbow and doesn't do that in Rainbow ride. I explain the distinction above.

And this matters because Mario uses "world" casually a lot. It can mean: a stage a region a location a themed area a "place" you're transported to, and yes, even a different universe (though only time I can think of off the top of my head is Paper Mario). And all but the last one exist in the same dimension. So when shit says "a world inside the painting/wall", that doesn't actually entail "an alternate universe was created" by default. It is fully compatible with the far simpler reading: "there is a place accessible through the wall/painting". Which unlike the interpretation that these must have been newly created, we already factually know paintings can have worlds within that exist elsewhere in the same larger scope, new or old even.

If you bothered read some of my statements during this thread, you'd know that I directly talk about this. The broader context must be considered before we call them "universes". I have never once cliamed or implied that "world" was enough of a qualifier. I also talk about what's IN the worlds themselves, how they've been stated to be endless, contain "bottomless underworlds", etc.

So either show an explicit "Bowser created the worlds/dimensions" line, or stop presenting your interpretation as canon.

Why, yes, I will. Let's go to the original Japanese for a moment, and check what Toad said;
"クッパはパワースターをつかって、「かべ」や「え」のなかに かいぶつのくにを つくろうとしています。スターを とりかえして！"
Bowser is using the Power Stars to create worlds of monsters inside the castle’s walls and paintings. Get the stars back!

You tried claiming that this means something along to lines of establishing some sort of Kingdom, yes? Well, here's the deal; the word for something like that would be "建国する" (https://jisho.org/search/建国する). The actual word used here is; "つくろ", which means "to create". If the true intention was to say it was the establishment of a political kingdom, why not say that outright? See how it connects to the English version, now? Leslie Swan, with Japanese oversight, wrote the English version without seeing the word ""建国する" because that was never what was written to begin with. This matches up with a Toad in HMC calling them "monster WORLDS", using "Sekai" instead of "Kuni". "Kuni" (くに) is a very broad word, that can mean a ton of things, as you noted previously. All of this context shows that the most reasonable interpretation, which matches up with the Japanese-overseen interpretation, shows the Bowser WAS the creator of the Worlds in Super Mario 64, making my argument the most grounded in the game's story.

 

[Galactidot]

Well, well, well... I did recheck over some of my original sources, and I re-consulted some Japanese sources (including LuckyEmile, and lo and behold, I found some... interesting things.

I have not used any faulty evidence, and I'll prove it... again. Building off of what ZespeonGalaxy tried saying;

Really, now? Well, let's go back to the credits of the Player's Guide, shall we?



Who was the publisher? Oh, right... M. Arakawa... what a weird name... oh right, he was the PRESIDENT OF NOA!

And who else was credited? Who was the Senior Editor? That's right, ladies and gentlemen... Ms. Leslie Swan. Oh, who's that, you may ask? Oh, no one... expect the voice actor of Peach in Super Mario 64, who helped translate the English Script of Super Mario 64! And I bet Mr. @Chariot190 is going to tell me that "but she didn't have any developer contact!" REALLY? Because her history shows OTHERWISE! She WORKED with Miyamoto HERSELF on Super Mario 64!

Best Of 2025: "We Did Try To Keep 'Forest' In The Name" - How Mario 64's Princess Peach Helped Bring Animal Crossing To The West

Leslie Swan's journey from Nintendo Power to Nintendo legend

www.timeextension.com

"So when I went over and I was working on the localization, I would sit with Mr. Miyamoto and a translator and they would be going over the changes I had made and I would explain why I was making the changes, and one day, Mr. Miyamoto just said, 'Is Peach a bad name?' And I had to tell him, 'No, but you know she is called Princess Toadstool in the US'. I remember he said, 'Well, I really like Peach as her name'. So I came up with the idea to say, 'Why don't we call her Princess Peach Toadstool?' Then we could refer to her informally as Peach."

"...Later, though, when we were launching the Nintendo 64, we were doing a player's guide for Super Mario 64 (Nintendo Power also produced the player's guides) and I went in and told Gail, 'This is a really, really special game. We need to get a professional writing team on it'. Because we really didn't have a real localization team at Nintendo at that time. A few days later, I came in and she said to me, 'Do you have a passport?' and 'They want you to go to Kyoto and do the writing on this game.' I was like, 'Okay, I wasn't exactly suggesting myself for that role', but she just said, 'We'll free you up!' So that was my first real localization experience, and doing it in Kyoto was a really special experience."

On top of literally GOING TO JAPAN TO WRITE THE SCRIPT, Miyamoto recounts specifically WORKING on the English version of Super Mario 64 himself!

Super Mario 64 – 1996 Developer Interviews - shmuplations.com

The first race against Koopa the Quick. —Hugging the penguins, catching the rabbits… I loved all the little details you added that weren’t directly connected to the main game. It made me really happy to finally catch the rabbit—I walked around with him, tried releasing him… I played around with...

shmuplations.com

"There’s no particularly detailed background or anything, but yeah, it’s a given that Mario is an Italian-American from Brooklyn, New York. That voice was actually done by a professional voice actor. He did Mario’s voice five or six years ago, at a video game event. By the way, Mario talks a lot more in the American version of Mario 64. He says “Okie Dokie!” and more. Peach also speaks. We had more time before the American release, so we improved the game." (yes, this is talking about voice work in context, but still, he knew and worked on the English version).

"No official developer contact" my complete and utter ass. If THIS amount of evidence isn't enough for you, then this really confirms why this wiki took multiple years to get Master Roshi to moon level when we literally saw him do so on page.

Now, I first want to star on your Odyssey Painting point, which is flaws to it's very core.

One, that "long running mechanic" started in Super Mario 64, pal. Two, this still would not in any way explain the Paintings in the various towers & moon paintings in Odyssey that allow you to replay (refight) certain events in the game. The paintings can do much more than just "take you to other places", they can and have shown to take you back to the past and allow you to experience various events (i.e time travel). The fact I have to explain to you shows that you don't know everything about the Paintings in Super Mario 64.

That's going to be a resounding "you didn't pay attention the game" from me, chief. In all the worlds within the Paintings and Walls, all of them have a magic wave and exclusive sound effect in the course. And when you fall in any of them, including the "Rainbow Ride" stage (which, mark you, has the same skybox and whatnot as Winged Mario Over the Rainbow), you get tossed out of the painting. However, there are 4 or so (if memory serves) courses that are directly access via the castle; the Invisible Mario stage, the Secret Slide, and Winged Mario Over the Rainbow. There's a clear discinction between these Secret Stages and the Paintings and Walls of Super Mario 64.

Because he falls to Peach's Castle in Winged Mario Over the Rainbow and doesn't do that in Rainbow ride. I explain the distinction above.

If you bothered read some of my statements during this thread, you'd know that I directly talk about this. The broader context must be considered before we call them "universes". I have never once cliamed or implied that "world" was enough of a qualifier. I also talk about what's IN the worlds themselves, how they've been stated to be endless, contain "bottomless underworlds", etc.

Why, yes, I will. Let's go to the original Japanese for a moment, and check what Toad said;
"クッパはパワースターをつかって、「かべ」や「え」のなかに かいぶつのくにを つくろうとしています。スターを とりかえして！"
Bowser is using the Power Stars to create worlds of monsters inside the castle’s walls and paintings. Get the stars back!

You tried claiming that this means something along to lines of establishing some sort of Kingdom, yes? Well, here's the deal; the word for something like that would be "建国する" (https://jisho.org/search/建国する). The actual word used here is; "つくろ", which means "to create". If the true intention was to say it was the establishment of a political kingdom, why not say that outright? See how it connects to the English version, now? Leslie Swan, with Japanese oversight, wrote the English version without seeing the word ""建国する" because that was never what was written to begin with. This matches up with a Toad in HMC calling them "monster WORLDS", using "Sekai" instead of "Kuni". "Kuni" (くに) is a very broad word, that can mean a ton of things, as you noted previously. All of this context shows that the most reasonable interpretation, which matches up with the Japanese-overseen interpretation, shows the Bowser WAS the creator of the Worlds in Super Mario 64, making my argument the most grounded in the game's story.

OH SHIT I THINK YOU'RE WRONG CHARIOT AND ARMOR

 

[Maniaunavailable]

OH SHIT I THINK YOU'RE WRONG CHARIOT AND ARMOR

this actually makes it so much easier lmao

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Oh, I forgot to mention;

I feel like my mario kart world point was a bit glossed over regarding the support for the creation which makes it stronger then ever considering its literally on screen.

AlloyAmi, sorry for forgetting that. If this is the case, as seen here:


We can see a shooting star going directly into Peach's Castle, with the mirror mode being accessible from there. While we don't see the interior of the comet/star that goes into thing, making it seemingly odd this is a Power Star, we can see that it's consistent with how Super Mario Galaxy portrays falling Power Stars:


So, considering that, it's certainly reasonable to say they are Power Stars, and further to show that Power Stars have broad-spanning effects on various worlds (or world, in MK World's case).

 

[Maniaunavailable]

Well, well, well... I did recheck over some of my original sources, and I re-consulted some Japanese sources (including LuckyEmile, and lo and behold, I found some... interesting things.

I have not used any faulty evidence, and I'll prove it... again. Building off of what ZespeonGalaxy tried saying;

Really, now? Well, let's go back to the credits of the Player's Guide, shall we?



Who was the publisher? Oh, right... M. Arakawa... what a weird name... oh right, he was the PRESIDENT OF NOA!

And who else was credited? Who was the Senior Editor? That's right, ladies and gentlemen... Ms. Leslie Swan. Oh, who's that, you may ask? Oh, no one... expect the voice actor of Peach in Super Mario 64, who helped translate the English Script of Super Mario 64! And I bet Mr. @Chariot190 is going to tell me that "but she didn't have any developer contact!" REALLY? Because her history shows OTHERWISE! She WORKED with Miyamoto HERSELF on Super Mario 64!

Best Of 2025: "We Did Try To Keep 'Forest' In The Name" - How Mario 64's Princess Peach Helped Bring Animal Crossing To The West

Leslie Swan's journey from Nintendo Power to Nintendo legend

www.timeextension.com

"So when I went over and I was working on the localization, I would sit with Mr. Miyamoto and a translator and they would be going over the changes I had made and I would explain why I was making the changes, and one day, Mr. Miyamoto just said, 'Is Peach a bad name?' And I had to tell him, 'No, but you know she is called Princess Toadstool in the US'. I remember he said, 'Well, I really like Peach as her name'. So I came up with the idea to say, 'Why don't we call her Princess Peach Toadstool?' Then we could refer to her informally as Peach."

"...Later, though, when we were launching the Nintendo 64, we were doing a player's guide for Super Mario 64 (Nintendo Power also produced the player's guides) and I went in and told Gail, 'This is a really, really special game. We need to get a professional writing team on it'. Because we really didn't have a real localization team at Nintendo at that time. A few days later, I came in and she said to me, 'Do you have a passport?' and 'They want you to go to Kyoto and do the writing on this game.' I was like, 'Okay, I wasn't exactly suggesting myself for that role', but she just said, 'We'll free you up!' So that was my first real localization experience, and doing it in Kyoto was a really special experience."

On top of literally GOING TO JAPAN TO WRITE THE SCRIPT, Miyamoto recounts specifically WORKING on the English version of Super Mario 64 himself!

Super Mario 64 – 1996 Developer Interviews - shmuplations.com

The first race against Koopa the Quick. —Hugging the penguins, catching the rabbits… I loved all the little details you added that weren’t directly connected to the main game. It made me really happy to finally catch the rabbit—I walked around with him, tried releasing him… I played around with...

shmuplations.com

"There’s no particularly detailed background or anything, but yeah, it’s a given that Mario is an Italian-American from Brooklyn, New York. That voice was actually done by a professional voice actor. He did Mario’s voice five or six years ago, at a video game event. By the way, Mario talks a lot more in the American version of Mario 64. He says “Okie Dokie!” and more. Peach also speaks. We had more time before the American release, so we improved the game." (yes, this is talking about voice work in context, but still, he knew and worked on the English version).

"No official developer contact" my complete and utter ass. If THIS amount of evidence isn't enough for you, then this really confirms why this wiki took multiple years to get Master Roshi to moon level when we literally saw him do so on page.

Now, I first want to star on your Odyssey Painting point, which is flaws to it's very core.

One, that "long running mechanic" started in Super Mario 64, pal. Two, this still would not in any way explain the Paintings in the various towers & moon paintings in Odyssey that allow you to replay (refight) certain events in the game. The paintings can do much more than just "take you to other places", they can and have shown to take you back to the past and allow you to experience various events (i.e time travel). The fact I have to explain to you shows that you don't know everything about the Paintings in Super Mario 64.

That's going to be a resounding "you didn't pay attention the game" from me, chief. In all the worlds within the Paintings and Walls, all of them have a magic wave and exclusive sound effect in the course. And when you fall in any of them, including the "Rainbow Ride" stage (which, mark you, has the same skybox and whatnot as Winged Mario Over the Rainbow), you get tossed out of the painting. However, there are 4 or so (if memory serves) courses that are directly access via the castle; the Invisible Mario stage, the Secret Slide, and Winged Mario Over the Rainbow. There's a clear discinction between these Secret Stages and the Paintings and Walls of Super Mario 64.

Because he falls to Peach's Castle in Winged Mario Over the Rainbow and doesn't do that in Rainbow ride. I explain the distinction above.

If you bothered read some of my statements during this thread, you'd know that I directly talk about this. The broader context must be considered before we call them "universes". I have never once cliamed or implied that "world" was enough of a qualifier. I also talk about what's IN the worlds themselves, how they've been stated to be endless, contain "bottomless underworlds", etc.

Why, yes, I will. Let's go to the original Japanese for a moment, and check what Toad said;
"クッパはパワースターをつかって、「かべ」や「え」のなかに かいぶつのくにを つくろうとしています。スターを とりかえして！"
Bowser is using the Power Stars to create worlds of monsters inside the castle’s walls and paintings. Get the stars back!

You tried claiming that this means something along to lines of establishing some sort of Kingdom, yes? Well, here's the deal; the word for something like that would be "建国する" (https://jisho.org/search/建国する). The actual word used here is; "つくろ", which means "to create". If the true intention was to say it was the establishment of a political kingdom, why not say that outright? See how it connects to the English version, now? Leslie Swan, with Japanese oversight, wrote the English version without seeing the word ""建国する" because that was never what was written to begin with. This matches up with a Toad in HMC calling them "monster WORLDS", using "Sekai" instead of "Kuni". "Kuni" (くに) is a very broad word, that can mean a ton of things, as you noted previously. All of this context shows that the most reasonable interpretation, which matches up with the Japanese-overseen interpretation, shows the Bowser WAS the creator of the Worlds in Super Mario 64, making my argument the most grounded in the game's story.

I think you should add this to the OP ngl

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

I think you should add this to the OP ngl

I likely will.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Oh, I forgot to mention;

AlloyAmi, sorry for forgetting that. If this is the case, as seen here:


We can see a shooting star going directly into Peach's Castle, with the mirror mode being accessible from there. While we don't see the interior of the comet/star that goes into thing, making it seemingly odd this is a Power Star, we can see that it's consistent with how Super Mario Galaxy portrays falling Power Stars:


So, considering that, it's certainly reasonable to say they are Power Stars, and further to show that Power Stars have broad-spanning effects on various worlds (or world, in MK World's case).

galaxy 2 also shows us this and this as well, shooting power stars are equivalent to any other power stars and galaxy directly treats it as so in dialogue when rosalina explains what lumas can grow up into and visually as i showed in the previous scans.

Mario party also has this cutscene along with eternal star.

Power stars also should be noted that they emit natural brightly shining light or more standard shooting star looking appearances which is more akin to what we see in mkw.

In rainbow road itself, you can see a bunch of these same shooting stars in the background,

and this is more attention detail support evidence, but rainbow road constantly shows imagery related to power of the stars, with the gates even showing power stars flying around the rainbow road entrance and end gates along with power star imagery. and lastly, we directly see power stars creating rainbow roads here, further supporting their relationship and all this evidence supporting that its a power star in the cutscene.


also unsure if you saw them, but above I posted this imgur I made that fully outlines mirror mode and its scope, and other impressive things it would include by proxy

 

[Galactidot]

galaxy 2 also shows us this and this as well, shooting power stars are equivalent to any other power stars and galaxy directly treats it as so in dialogue when rosalina explains what lumas can grow up into and visually as i showed in the previous scans.

Mario party also has this cutscene along with eternal star.

Power stars also should be noted that they emit natural brightly shining light or more standard shooting star looking appearances.

In rainbow road itself, you can see a bunch of these same shooting stars in the background,

and this is more attention detail support evidence, but rainbow road constantly shows imagery related to power of the stars, with the gates even showing power stars flying around the rainbow road entrance and end gates along with power star imagery. and lastly, we directly see power stars creating rainbow roads here, further supporting their relationship and all this evidence supporting that its a power star in the cutscene.

My thread is one thing but this is looking undeniable

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

also unsure if you saw them, but above I posted this imgur I made that fully outlines mirror mode and its scope, and other impressive things it would include by proxy

It's also consistent with the Wario: Master of Disguise.

 

[JJSliderman]

I really do want this upgrade to succeed but, let’s just try to keep it civil, people are more receptive when the atmosphere is calm.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

I really do want this upgrade to succeed but, let’s just try to keep it civil, people are more receptive when the atmosphere is calm.

Sure, I'll be civil - I apologize to @Chariot190 & @Armorchompy if I sounded aggressive or disrespectful.

 

[Galactidot]

Sure, I'll be civil - I apologize to @Chariot190 & @Armorchompy if I sounded aggressive or disrespectful.

Same

 

[LuckyEmile]

Why, yes, I will. Let's go to the original Japanese for a moment, and check what Toad said;
"クッパはパワースターをつかって、「かべ」や「え」のなかに かいぶつのくにを つくろうとしています。スターを とりかえして！"
Bowser is using the Power Stars to create worlds of monsters inside the castle’s walls and paintings. Get the stars back!

You tried claiming that this means something along to lines of establishing some sort of Kingdom, yes? Well, here's the deal; the word for something like that would be "建国する" (https://jisho.org/search/建国する). The actual word used here is; "つくろ", which means "to create". If the true intention was to say it was the establishment of a political kingdom, why not say that outright? See how it connects to the English version, now? Leslie Swan, with Japanese oversight, wrote the English version without seeing the word ""建国する" because that was never what was written to begin with. This matches up with a Toad in HMC calling them "monster WORLDS", using "Sekai" instead of "Kuni". "Kuni" (くに) is a very broad word, that can mean a ton of things, as you noted previously. All of this context shows that the most reasonable interpretation, which matches up with the Japanese-overseen interpretation, shows the Bowser WAS the creator of the Worlds in Super Mario 64, making my argument the most grounded in the game's story.

Not a bad start to this point, though I think it needs some elaboration here and there to truly explain the finer details. Also for some reason you went with the "worlds" translation again that already got called out earlier but I assume we all know what this line means by now anyway.

I was planning on bringing up some of this stuff in my response to this thread, there's just so many points to go over that it will take some time, so sorry for the wait everyone. But this was a decent start, and the stuff from future games like Mario Kart World to elaborate on this that folks are bringing up seems interesting.

 

[Chariot190]

I do not have the patience to trim this, shorten it, or spoiler it atm, it is what it is.

Well, well, well... I did recheck over some of my original sources, and I re-consulted some Japanese sources (including LuckyEmile, and lo and behold, I found some... interesting things.

Drop the theatrics and just post the evidence dude. Padding doesn't make an inference valid.
But all the same, cool, then let's stick to what actually follows from the evidence?

As an aside, since when was Emile a "Japanese source"? Not to say they don't have some good stuff to say, they did at one point convince me of the existence of a tier 5 feat ironic given the other thread and how people try to push that feat as cosmic but, they did accomplish something and they did so by doing the opposite of what you're doing. But I'm really not so keen on having to argue him, through you, because you can't formulate your own points.

I have not used any faulty evidence, and I'll prove it... again. Building off of what

You did use faulty evidence. You translated 怪物の国 as worlds and then used that to claim "Bowser is creating the worlds". That was not faithful, it was faulty.

But anyway, you don't get to pretend the original post didn't happen. It matters because it shows the exact same pattern you're repeating continuously: extrapolating/changing the text to fit your conclusion.
Not withstanding you're going to literally do it again below thrice more, but that's beside the point.

And mind you, your doc is full of faulty examples, I'll go one-by-one later when I have some more time.

ZespeonGalaxy tried saying;

Really, now? Well, let's go back to the credits of the Player's Guide, shall we?



Who was the publisher? Oh, right... M. Arakawa... what a weird name... oh right, he was the PRESIDENT OF NOA!

Huh? You're repeating the publishing point that wasn't ok before, again, as if specifying the publisher beyond "Nintendo" changes anything. You're repeating the same argument but now just naming a publisher, instead of the brand.
Being a corporate publisher is not the same as being the scenario authority.
A president signing ok on publication is a business/legal approval. It does not establish that guide-exclusive lore slop were vetted against internal canon documents or written by the game's scenario staff.

If your standard is "a high-ranking executive greenlit it", then literally any licensed product cleared for release would be "canon". That's not a canon argument, that's an argument for officiality.

We have rules for this shit, either follow them, leave, or make an actual rule to overturn our standards we just implemented like last week, but as long as you're here you need to follow and Mario isn't some special exception.

Also do not ignore how the actual writing of the guide was done by completely randoms with zero say, showing the actual list doesn't help your point, it proves exactly what I've been saying..

And who else was credited? Who was the Senior Editor? That's right, ladies and gentlemen... Ms. Leslie Swan. Oh, who's that, you may ask? Oh, no one... expect the voice actor of Peach in Super Mario 64, who helped translate the English Script of Super Mario 64! And I bet Mr. @Chariot190 is going to tell me that "but she didn't have any developer contact!" REALLY? Because her history shows OTHERWISE! She WORKED with Miyamoto HERSELF on Super Mario 64!

This whole paragraph is straight up dodging + mind-reading fallacy, and none of it proves the claim you actually need:
1. The "I bet you'll say-" thing is just preemptive strawman posturing.
You are inventing an objection for me, then acting like you've already beaten it. That is not evidence. It is you trying to steer the conversation into something you can manage as you can't argue what actually needs to be shown. If you have proof, post it. Do not do the "I bet you'll cope" shit as a substitute for evidence, this is like the 3rd time you've done so.

2. Even if the metaphorical "we" grant the best-case: dev contact still does not equal canon authority.
Yes, Swan had developer contact during localization. Cool. That still does not establish:
the Player's Guide's "new lore" is sourced from internal documents, the guide was vetted line-by-line by the scenario team, or that guide-only statements are intended to add new canon facts.

This is still a category error.
You keep trying to worm in: "had dev contact" ergo "therefore the guide can add new canon facts".
That implication does not come from that unless you prove direct scenario oversight or direct sourcing from internal materials. You have not.

3. "Senior Editor" is not "scenario writer".
This is simply you not knowing or understanding what that role entails. An editorial credit is about managing copy, consistency, and production. It is not scenario authorship or writing. If your argument hinges on "Swan touched the guide, therefore it is canon", then you are implicitly claiming editors can establish canon facts. That is not how canon works in basically any media, including Nintendo.

4. You are also worming in a second leap: localization changes = canon changes.
Swan's involvement in the English release does not mean every English phrasing has priority over the Japanese original, and it sure as hell does not mean guide-only wording overrides primary material. If you want supersession, you have to prove Nintendo treats the English guide as an authoritative canon text above the original. You have not.

5. This still dodges your burden.
The question wasnt "did Swan ever talk to Miyamoto".
The question was: "Does this guide have demonstrated authority to add NEW canon facts?"

To prove that, you need something like: an explicit statement that the guide content is drawn from internal development docs, explicit endorsement that the guide contains canonical lore beyond the game itself, or scenario staff credited as supplying story/lore content (not just editorial/localization roles). SOMETHING that actually matters.

Right now you have: "a person who worked on localization is credited as an editor".
That does not canonize guide-exclusive claims. It means the guide had staff, which I would pray is true.

Fyi, just for wider examples. Plenty of media has adaptations with author involvement, but the original takes precedence unless supersession is explicitly established (Kojima with MGS localization, weird mixed productions like Metroid Prime, etc.).

snip
On top of literally GOING TO JAPAN TO WRITE THE SCRIPT, Miyamoto recounts specifically WORKING on the English version of Super Mario 64 himself!

Two separate things keep getting blurred here, so let's separate them for a sec:
1. The English localization of the game;
Yes, Swan did localization work and Miyamoto was aware / involved to some degree. That can support "the English in-game script is an authorized localization".
But that still does NOT automatically mean: every localization choice is a binding lore retcon over the Japanese,
or that every phrasing nuance in English is a hard canon statement rather than a adaptation.
If you want to say "English overrides Japanese on lore", you need an explicit basis for that. Otherwise the Japanese game script remains the primary reference, and the English is an adaptation of it, ergo read rules.

2. The English player's guide;
Even if the in-game English script is authorized, that does not transfer canon authority to the player's guide in the slightest. A guide is a separate publication that can contain: summaries, simplifications, marketing copy,
interpretive phrasing, and even mistakes.

So the quote about going to Kyoto supports that "she did localization/writing work in Kyoto for the English release (but to what extent we do not know)". It does NOT mean shit like "the player's guide defines canon" or "guide-only statements are canon".

If you want either of those conclusions, you need proof the guide's new lore claims were sourced from internal materials and intended as canon statements (scenario docs, dev-confirmed lore, explicit canon endorsement), not just explanatory filler by someone who doesn't have real say, that or supersession.

Super Mario 64 – 1996 Developer Interviews - shmuplations.com

The first race against Koopa the Quick. —Hugging the penguins, catching the rabbits… I loved all the little details you added that weren’t directly connected to the main game. It made me really happy to finally catch the rabbit—I walked around with him, tried releasing him… I played around with...

shmuplations.com

"There’s no particularly detailed background or anything, but yeah, it’s a given that Mario is an Italian-American from Brooklyn, New York. That voice was actually done by a professional voice actor. He did Mario’s voice five or six years ago, at a video game event. By the way, Mario talks a lot more in the American version of Mario 64. He says “Okie Dokie!” and more. Peach also speaks. We had more time before the American release, so we improved the game." (yes, this is talking about voice work in context, but still, he knew and worked on the English version).

This hurts your case more than it helps btw. That quote is exactly why interview-level givens and localization-era statements need careful handling: it contains claims Nintendo fans widely treat as non-binding or inconsistent with later portrayals. It's not a clean canon for every line of shit they put out.

Also, Miyamoto knew about the English version doesn't mean "Miyamoto vetted the Player's Guide's phrasing as canon lore and every single word change in game".

Also, you undermined your own point, that's about voice acting, not worldbuilding, lore, etc.
Yeah he knew about it, why WOULDN'T he know? NA/PAL isn't exactly this unheard thing?
And worked? Sure, but on what part, to what extent, working on it doesn't mean canonicity with extra evidence per rules, and why does this validate a specific NPC line over the original?

"No official developer contact" my complete and utter ass. If THIS amount of evidence isn't enough for you, then this really confirms why this wiki took multiple years to get Master Roshi to moon level when we literally saw him do so on page.

You are arguing a strawman.
The question was never "did anybody ever have dev contact". The question is: "does this guide have demonstrated authority to add NEW canon facts or is the information within it sourced from something that does". Localization contact is not that authority. This is why the wiki treats guides as secondary unless proven otherwise.
And yes, wiki; dev contact during localization does not automatically grant that authority. Explicitly:
Author approval alone does not confer canonical status upon adaptations. Such material is considered part of the primary continuity only when the creator or rights holders explicitly confirm its integration into, or priority over, the original timeline—for instance, through statements verifying that specific events, scenes, or elements genuinely occur within it (e.g., "These scenes originate from material in my notes that was omitted from the initial release but belongs in the core story.") Mere involvement, minor supervision, general praise, or characterizations of the work as a "faithful adaptation" remain insufficient to establish new content as official canon; all determinations continue to be made on a case-by-case basis, with these criteria serving as guidelines rather than an exhaustive standard. - VSBW Canon Rules.

You're just straight up not proving what actually needs to be proven nor hitting any of the beats that would make it a case by case exception.
You're trying to argue the ENG translation supersedes the Japanese now despite merely having Miyamoto glance over it and not go "nah I hate it throw it out", which hits point 1; mere approval isn't enough, we index the original primary source, not the billion other iterations of it.

Leslie Swan you just confirmed she did the changes, not Miyamoto.
That is to say, you sabotaged your own argument. You confirmed that it was her who altered and changed text, not that it came from specific internal canon documents, files or lore, or from someone with specific say like Miyamoto himself.

Now, I first want to star on your Odyssey Painting point, which is flaws to it's very core. One, that "long running mechanic" started in Super Mario 64, pal.

You missed the point and then tried to posture. Whether it started in SM64 doesn't change that the mechanic itself does not imply he created them whatsoever.

My point was not "paintings only teleport". My point was: the series has confirmed examples where paintings are just portals to already-existing places (including within the same time-space), so you cannot assume "painting = new universe", and as we get to below your lil wavey and sfx isn't evidence either. Odyssey proves paintings are a multipurpose: warps, shortcuts, re-entry points. That undermines your attempt to treat paintings as inherent separate dimensions as a baseline.

Two, this still would not in any way explain the Paintings in the various towers & moon paintings in Odyssey that allow you to replay (refight) certain events in the game. The paintings can do much more than just "take you to other places", they can and have shown to take you back to the past and allow you to experience various events (i.e time travel). The fact I have to explain to you shows that you don't know everything about the Paintings in Super Mario 64.

This is a complete non-argument and it misses the point.

1. We call this a non-sequitur / irrelevant conclusion lad.
Even if some Odyssey paintings let you replay boss fights or revisit events, that does not imply that SM64 paintings are "alternate universes," and it definitely doesn't imply Bowser "created the worlds".
You're extrapolating "paintings can do more than teleport" to "the SM64 painting worlds must be alternate universes", even the other Odyssey examples don't support that claim.

2. You accidentally proved my point: paintings are multi portals
Odyssey has a ton of paintings that clearly act as straightforward warps to locations that already exist within the same broader setting. Some are literally just shortcuts back to an already-established area/kingdom, and some are replay/return mechanics.
You can literally go from A to B in real time as it warps Mario across the same planet.
So we have hard-confirmed examples of paintings being:
A. Simple warps
B. Shortcuts
C. Replays
D. Event/boss re-entry points
That outright destroys the idea that "painting = new universe created by the painting" is the default.

3. Argument from possibility too.
You're basically saying "paintings can do time travel, therefore SM64 paintings are metaphysical world dimension slop".
That's the "can = is" fallacy dude. Capability in one context isn't identity in another, and none of that establishes that were created from nothing then and there. Also, I'm not so sure it's time travel either but I'd need to check for that one, not that it matters, time travel is still the same world, no?

4. Strawman + ad hominem posture tbh.
"The fact I have to explain to you shows you don't know everything" is just yap, again.
Nobody needs to "know everything" to point out your inference chain is objectively invalid. You're replacing evidence with condescension. The fact I'm very much aware and didn't systematically go over every example is besides the point because back to point 1, this is a non-sequitur. It's utterly irrelevant to my point being made or your point you're trying to prove.

5. The actual point you keep dodging or refusing to actually acknowledge is very simple:
The point wasn't "paintings only teleport".
My point was: paintings in Mario are demonstrably able to connect to pre-existing places (including places within the same "world") as seen in the image they contain; so you cannot assume "painting= alternate universe" by default as it's established explicitly. As Odyssey example: Odyssey paintings are explicitly used as warps to places that already exist. That is direct confirmation that paintings can map to already-existing locations.

Meaning your Odyssey tangent does not help your SM64 claim. If anything, it undermines your attempt to treat paintings as inherently universes.

That's going to be a resounding "you didn't pay attention the game" from me, chief. In all the worlds within the Paintings and Walls, all of them have a magic wave and exclusive sound effect in the course. And when you fall in any of them, including the "Rainbow Ride" stage (which, mark you, has the same skybox and whatnot as Winged Mario Over the Rainbow), you get tossed out of the painting. However, there are 4 or so (if memory serves) courses that are directly access via the castle; the Invisible Mario stage, the Secret Slide, and Winged Mario Over the Rainbow.

Don't do this. The "you didn't pay attention" line is just posturing. It doesn't fix the logic, and it doesn't substitute for evidence, and it sure as hell ain't gonna fly here.

You're twisting presentation cues (the wave + SFX) and fail-state (getting ejected) into lore markers for what the destination "really is". That is a once again a category error, and it falls apart if you actually look at all your alleged worlds.

1. The "magic wave" and the SFX do not prove ontology, they prove "this is a painting-style entrance"
A warp animation + sound cue is UX. It's how the game conveys "you entered a course".
It is not a metaphysical evidence.

And we do not have to guess this fortunately: like it or not, Odyssey uses the exact same kind of painting warp presentation (the wave effect + SFX) for paintings that are explicitly just warps/shortcuts to places that already exist in the same setting. The effect is tied to the entry method (a painting), not the nature of the destination. So "wave + SFX = alternate world/universe" is dead on arrival dude.

The wave effect being effectively the same across games is exactly why you cannot treat it as cosmology, as we know that it happens even when we know for a fact it's warping Mario to a pre-existing location.

2. "You get tossed out of the painting when you fall" is a reset mechanic, not lore. Ejection-on-fall is a fail-state handler. It prevents softlocks, death loops, and keeps progression clean. It tells you how the game returns you to the hub, not what the destination space "is" in-universe.

If your argument relies on "how the game handles failure" to infer "what the world literally is", you're not doing lore analysis, you're doing pattern-matching on gameplay rules. And I say this because guess what happens if you say... Die in Wingcap instead of fall? That is rhetorical (the answer is respawn like your Endless Sky in Wing cap switch example btw). Kickout occurs on death, for over the rainbow, Mario doesn't actually die but that's not my point anyway on the alt kickout method.

3. Your "paintings/walls eject you, secret stages are different" distinction is not consistent and it does not prove what you want anyway...
First, it's not even consistent within the "secret stage" category. Second, even if it was consistent, it still would not prove ontology. Different entrance types get different animations, SFX, and exit rules. That is a production/UI choice given OD proves otherwise.

And the Secret Slide example is exactly why your method is arbitrary: it's behind a normal castle pane like other stages, yet it is a weird void-like space. If "exit rules + presentation" is your canon test, then the slide would be its own "universe" too. That's obviously not a serious standard when it's part of your "don't count castle stars" category.

4. You keep implying "painting wave + SFX" is what separates "real alternate world courses" from "just warps".
Got some bad news for ya...The Bowser 2 stage hard-breaks your wave/SFX rule
The game warps Mario into a massive, self-contained area that is evidently not Peach's Castle, with zero magic SFX:


Mario drops through a small hole in the castle floor and loads into a huge lava area where Bowser is literally sitting there waiting for his ass:
No painting-style wave effect.
No painting-style SFX.
Destination is still a full course/arena with layout, hazards, and a very much not around Peach's Castle.
It's a Bowser stage, not some random side room.
It still behaves like a course in terms of entering/exiting.

So by your own logic, this should be "just a warp" (no wave/SFX), yet it functions exactly like the painting courses. That means the wave/SFX is not an ontological divider. It's a presentation flourish tied to the portal type.
I bring this up because it's identical to the Wingcap stage, that we both know is a warp to an existing location in the same world, and when your counter to that was "there wasn't a sfx woosh", Bowser 2 having an identical entry method+effects+no whoosh tells us that Wingcap isn't a outlier, and it also applies to exits.

5. You also keep dodging the "existing location" point
SM64 already gives you portal destinations that are plainly "somewhere else" relative to the castle. Wing Cap is the obvious example: you drop into the wall and end up in the sky above the castle, and if you fall you literally fall back into the courtyard. That is a direct, literal continuity cue: it's not a separate cosmos, it's a warp to a location and this one just happens to be close enough to matter.

And just to establish this now, "that doesn't count because no wave/SFX" point of yours: that is exactly the point of 4. You can't claim wave/SFX is what makes something an "alternate universe" when the game has other warp methods that still produce huge isolated spaces and still get ejected on failure (Bowser 2) and ones that still clearly connect to existing locations (Wing Cap fall), without them + wave effect confirmed to mean nothing.

6. "Same skybox" doesn't even make sense as a point to make?
Reused skyboxes are asset reuse. If anything, pointing out that Rainbow Ride and Wing Mario share visuals while you're trying to push one as ontologically special supports my point: these are staged environments with reused assets and loose descriptive language. If anything the fact they're identical implies they're the same place and when one is confirmed same world...

Man the bottom line is that you're stacking irrelevant details because you don't have the actual statement you need. Wave + SFX + ejection behavior do not prove: "these are separate universes," or "Bowser created them".

They only prove: SM64 has multiple warp entrances (paintings, holes, doors, walls), different entrances use different animations/sounds, and the game has different reset/ejection rules that apply inconsistently for stages we both know don't fall under your greater claim.

Because he falls to Peach's Castle in Winged Mario Over the Rainbow and doesn't do that in Rainbow ride. I explain the distinction above.

And since you brought up ejection methods: As above; Bowser stage 2 has the same basic ejection behavior as Rainbow Ride. Your earlier rebuttal was "Wing Cap drops you, Rainbow Ride kicks you out, and Rainbow Ride has the funny SFX so that must be an alt world", or whatever. But Bowser 2 is entered via a non-painting warp, lacks the painting SFX, (identical to Wing Cap which according to you means not alt world so don't count), and still kicks you out. So if you are using exit behavior + FX as your divider logic, that same logic falls apart the moment Bowser 2 exists because it does both.

If you bothered read some of my statements during this thread, you'd know that I directly talk about this. The broader context must be considered before we call them "universes". I have never once cliamed or implied that "world" was enough of a qualifier. I also talk about what's IN the worlds themselves, how they've been stated to be endless, contain "bottomless underworlds", etc.

I did read them, people can disagree with you and still read what you said, especially if your claims have major hurdles. Also, cut the accusatory "you didn't read" shit out regardless.

Now, none of what you said actually fixes the core problem I'm pointing out:
You still do not have explicit canon text that says "Bowser created these worlds".
You are still leaning on interpretation and flavor, not a clear canon statement, while direct counterexamples to your interpretation exist explicitly making it something that must be proven directly.

"Broader context" here just means your preferred reading ngl. You're treating descriptive language like "endless" and "bottomless underworld" as if it's literal cosmology, when this is completely standard game-text hyperbole.

Mario has "endless stairs", "bottomless pits", "infinite" this and that all over the goddamn place, even when they clearly aren't literal. "Bottomless" is a stock phrase. It does not magically turn every place described that way into a separate universe infinite universe. We literally see the planet isn't "bottomless" across the franchise like in Galaxy, so you're selectively literalizing words only when they help your conclusion.

And even for argument's sake, we say "endless" 100% literally, it still does not mean "Bowser created these as standalone universes". A huge or conceptually unbounded space can still be a region or space within the same space-time given we see that dozens of times throughout Mario. It does not require "new universe conjured into existence" to enable their existence. Part of why I mentioned Galaxy 2 eve, if that truly is the same place, it falls into the vast expanse of space so ya know.

Also, you absolutely did lean a claim on "world" in combination with your painting logic. Your earlier wording was verbatim:
"Bowser is using the Power Stars to create worlds of monsters inside the castle's walls and paintings".

You are the one who pushed "create worlds" as the phrasing, then tried to back it with "they are called worlds elsewhere", and now you're pivoting to "I never said world by itself is enough".
That's a quiet yet not subtle goalpost shift that doesn't work either way, because you're still skipping the actual missing step that proves the relevant claim.

"World" is not enough by itself per your own admission.
"Endless" and "bottomless underworld" are not enough by themselves.
Put together, they are still just dramatic level descriptions, not a canon statement about universe creation and size. Again, this is just you stacking disconnected vibes and calling it evidence.

Why, yes, I will. Let's go to the original Japanese for a moment, and check what Toad said;
"クッパはパワースターをつかって、「かべ」や「え」のなかに かいぶつのくにを つくろうとしています。スターを とりかえして！"
Bowser is using the Power Stars to create worlds of monsters inside the castle’s walls and paintings. Get the stars back! You tried claiming that this means something along to lines of establishing some sort of Kingdom, yes? Well, here's the deal; the word for something like that would be "建国する" (https://jisho.org/search/建国する). The actual word used here is; "つくろ", which means "to create". If the true intention was to say it was the establishment of a political kingdom, why not say that outright? See how it connects to the English version, now?

Ok so remember how I warned you that if you deliberately did it again, I would be talking to a mod?
This isn't an accident this time, you had these words explained to you before.
Your English is not what the Japanese says. You, AGAIN, shoved "worlds" into the line and then acted like you proved "Bowser created the worlds". Cut that shit out.

Here is what the sentence actually says, and why your reading doesn't work:

1. 怪物の国 is not "worlds of monsters".
怪物の国 is literally "the monsters' country/land/realm/kingdom". It is one "kuni" in the sentence, not "worlds" (plural), and it does not inherently mean "universe". If you want to gloss 国 loosely as "world" for Mario-style English, you're still not allowed to pluralize it or pretend that swap proves your cosmology claim. It just becomes the same kind of "world" as "land" type wording seen countless times throughout, not "new universes created from scratch".

2. Your "they would've used 建国する" dodge:
建国する is a very specific verb for founding a nation-state. It's not required to express "make/establish a kingdom/realm/domain". 怪物の国をつくる is perfectly normal Japanese for "make a monster kingdom/realm".
つくる is a generic "make/build/create" verb used for everyday and abstract things.
You can つくる: a house, a plan, a town, a rule, a lie, a club, a situation, etc. It does not imply "create a universe" by itself. So your leap from "つくる" to cosmological creation is backwards af, and your attempt to use "no 建国する" as proof is just a fake linguistic requirement you're shoving in after the fact.

3. And here is the part you keep trying to memory-hole dude: the actual verb form is つくろうとしています.
This is not past tense, and it's not a completed-act claim. つくろうとしている / つくろうとしています is "is trying to make / is attempting to make" - an ongoing goal.
So even if we humor your strongest possible gloss for 怪物の国 (we shouldn't), the grammar still ruins your argument: "Bowser already created the worlds" does not reconcile with an attempt-form sentence.
Your own citation is written as "trying", not "did".
Meaning, whatever Toad means, it cannot be "Bowser already created the worlds" in the sense you're claiming, it's outright incompatible as a reading, given it would have to be framed as something he already did given the painting courses very much exist already (contrary to the "he's gonna try to make them).

So when you translate it as "Bowser is using the Power Stars to create worlds of monsters", you're doing multiple egregious dishonest twists at once:
You turn 怪物の国 into "worlds" (plural), you swap a broad noun into a loaded word, and you flatten "attempting to make" into "therefore he created them". The Japanese does not say that.

Now, the Swan/oversight stuff doesn't help this. It just adds more non sequiturs.

1. "Japanese oversight" does not mean canon cosmology endorsed.
Even if Swan worked on localization with some degree of oversight, that does not mean every English nuance becomes new lore. And it definitely does not mean a separate player's guide gains authority to add new canon facts.
An approved release product is not the same thing as scenario staff line-by-line canonizing guide-only claims or meaning-shifting rewrites, we got rules on that.

2. You're blurring two different things: the English in-game localization (an adaptation of the Japanese), and the English player's guide (a separate publication full of summaries, simplifications, marketing copy, and interpretive filler).
Even if the in-game English is "authorized", that does not transfer canon authority to the guide. You still need direct proof the guide's lore claims are sourced from internal scenario documents or explicitly endorsed as canon. You do not have that.

3. Your Sekai vs Kuni pivot proves nothing.
Yes, sometimes NPCs use 世界 to describe course spaces. Nobody is denying the game can call them "worlds" (what a "world" entails here is up for debate though).
But you keep trying to go: "世界 appears elsewhere therefore Bowser created worlds".
Non sequitur. Word choice for where you go is not a predicate that attributes the origin of those spaces to Bowser, the two Toads are yapping about two completely different things.

4. And if you're trying to argue "ENG translated it this way so that must be what Toad meant":
that's not "word choice" or "interpretation", that's changing the whole ass sentence.
The Japanese premise is attempt-form goal with a meaning; your English reading is treated like a completed fact with different words. Those are not the same claim. Swan, nor you, actually translated the original Japanese line directly, you're both changing the actual meaning behind the line into a incompatible sentence, which is also relevant because the very fact it's linguistically incompatible tells us Swan didn't just make a "word choice" that fit what it meant, but outright changed the very premise of the line.
If you want to override the Japanese primary script, you need to prove replacement. Otherwise, the Japanese remains the primary.

And again: the one line you keep leaning on that actually uses a "make" verb is explicitly つくろうとしている (attempting). That is the opposite of "Bowser did it". It reads like "he's trying to turn the places you're entering into a monster realm", which is perfectly consistent with takeover/corruption/occupation, not proof of "worlds conjured from scratch that didn't exist before".

Bottom line my dude:
国 being broad makes your claim weaker, not stronger. Broad means ambiguous, and ambiguity is not use the biggest possible cosmology interpretation as fact. It means we default to the safest option.
つくろうとしています being an attempt is a direct grammatical problem for your creation claim.
"Oversight" and "Swan had contact" do not turn a guide into a canon bible like Hyrule Historia or whatnot, and they do not overwrite the Japanese primary script unless that supersession is explicit. That's what we index.

If you want to keep pushing "Bowser WAS the creator of the worlds", stop with Swan, stop with unrelated 世界 usage, and provide an explicit statement that actually attributes creation of the worlds themselves to Bowser. Something like:
クッパが絵の世界を作った
クッパが世界を作り出した
クッパが壁の世界を作った
Or ANYTHING that directly says what you're asserting.

Until then, your conclusion is not "the most reasonable interpretation". It's you stacking ambiguous wording, inflating it, twisting it, shoving in completely new meanings, words, ignoring the grammar, handwaving every single blatant contradiction to your arguments and excuses like Odyssey/Bows 2/Wing/Haunt/etc., rendering them vague non-proof at best, and to add to that, you failed to properly tackle multiple points against you from last post so they're still there dude, they haven't vanished, those being (plus some more):

1. Multiple worlds have complete histories and pre-existing lore such as your own Thwomp example you're using to denote an endless abyss (which ironically is shown again in Galaxy 2 as a galaxy near the center of the universe, not a completely alternate reality).

2. Other worlds also exist elsewhere, Tick Tock Clock is a course in Mario Kart with a description saying whoever made it "must've had a lot of time on their hands", that directly undercuts the notion that Bowser instantly magic'd it into existence.

3. Literally our wiki rules. You can argue all you want but without actual hard proof saying ENG replaces the Japanese, or the info comes from a canon authoritative source, it's useless and isn't allowed to be used (and you confirmed Swan wrote all the changes herself so you shot one of your own means to prove it down outright). All this (that being this post as a whole) essentially combines into your argument here being contradicted conjecture that you can't actually prove while pushing against very explicit canonicity rules for the hell of it and acting as if it supersedes the actual primary canon.

You're better off dropping it entirely and arguing something that can't have a million holes poked into it causing your own thread to derail, clutter, and probably closed as you can't actually discuss things civilly.

Not a bad start to this point, though I think it needs some elaboration here and there to truly explain the finer details. Also for some reason you went with the "worlds" translation again that already got called out earlier but I assume we all know what this line means by now anyway.

I was planning on bringing up some of this stuff in my response to this thread, there's just so many points to go over that it will take some time, so sorry for the wait everyone. But this was a decent start, and the stuff from future games like Mario Kart World to elaborate on this that folks are bringing up seems interesting.

Do not endorse it unless you want to be part of the problem.
Pushing inaccurate translations is ban worthy; that isn't a "translation", it's a rewrite.

And no, there's two very clear things you need to be proven here; you prove them, and you can go wild, if you can't, it needs to go. This isn't a matter of opinion either, it's rules.
The only thing he actually succeeded in proving is Swan wrote the changes herself, that's a bad thing. The only applicable route now is to prove the ENG translation supersedes the original Japanese. Every point either isn't one, easily contradicted or shown not a concrete rule, or is a guide written by literally who.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yeah okay I just saw this, nothing here proves canonicity. Again something being official material in no way means it's canon. Just look at I dunno, Mario is Missing, the Mario movie, Hotel Mario, the old Mario movie, Mario & Rabbidz, the dozen different Mario manga, the official SMB1 PC port, and a hundred different things. There's so much "official material" that was even sometimes directly worked on by Nintendo, that doesn't mean shit regarding canonicity.

I can't speak regarding translations but Chariot generally knows enough about them that I'd trust it when he says there's problems.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Something else I wanted point out is that the ENG localisation for SM64 isn't even consistent with itself in regards to the painting worlds, since the story in the manual has one of the Bob-omb buddies explain that Bowser is simply turning the inhabitants of the painting worlds into monsters instead of making entirely new ones (Which makes sense, why would he willingly make worlds with people oppossed to him so he can turn them into his servants instead of just making worlds full of monsters already loyal to him, bro ain't the sharpest tool in the shed but he's not braindead).

I'm 90% sure the original JP version also said he was simply turning people into monsters (Which fits with what Chariot said about the JP toad dialouge), if anyone wants to double check since I'm not 100% certain (Yeah I know it's the 30th anniversay Encyclopedia but all the story sections are ripped straight from the original manuals, even got a little disclaimer at the top saying so)

 

[Starsprite53]

(Which makes sense, why would he willingly make worlds with people oppossed to him so he can turn them into his servants instead of just making worlds full of monsters already loyal to him, bro ain't the sharpest tool in the shed but he's not braindead).

Why dust is loosely talking about Shin Megami Tensei plot

 

[AlloyAmi]

Tbh regarding paintings, this requires a more in depth look regarding in game details but its suggested that it can be both portals to existing locations AND new worlds which mario kart world yet again supports as the mirrored world was not a pre existing location and the stained glass was otherwise a normal wall you can physically hit before. while there are places that connect to the main world such as the areas where you can come back to the main lobby from the water or sky or specific scenarios like dire dire docks, this doesn't apply to all the levels and there's very clearly separate worlds they refer to as an entirely "new world": "painting worlds/worlds within the paintings" that are clearly based off the painting or thing. Tick Tock Clock is a notable one, its a literal world all about the clock in the castle itself. And the way I see it, bowser just creates worlds based on the paintings or whatever else in the castle and then wanted to take it over from there. Should also note the Black Jewel does the exact same thing, it creates the world, and then wants to take over it making its own kingdom, so I don't really consider it a contradiction and can be explained like this.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

doesn't apply to all the levels and there's very clearly separate worlds they refer to as an entirely "new world": "painting worlds/worlds within the paintings" that are clearly based off the painting or thing.

My point exactly. There's an obvious distinction that is being ignored- especially considering how different the falling animations are for each one. One takes you out of the painting/wall, the other removes you from the castle altogether.

 

[Galactidot]

Tbh regarding paintings, this requires a more in depth look regarding in game details but its suggested that it can be both portals to existing locations AND new worlds which mario kart world yet again supports as the mirrored world was not a pre existing location and the stained glass was otherwise a normal wall you can physically hit before. while there are places that connect to the main world such as the areas where you can come back to the main lobby from the water or sky or specific scenarios like dire dire docks, this doesn't apply to all the levels and there's very clearly separate worlds they refer to as an entirely "new world": "painting worlds/worlds within the paintings" that are clearly based off the painting or thing. Tick Tock Clock is a notable one, its a literal world all about the clock in the castle itself. And the way I see it, bowser just creates worlds based on the paintings or whatever else in the castle and then wanted to take it over from there. Should also note the Black Jewel does the exact same thing, it creates the world, and then wants to take over it making its own kingdom, so I don't really consider it a contradiction and can be explained like this.

Yeah, it's certainly more varied than a catch-all situation. I agree that some paintings are portals, like in Odyssey and ones that lead above the castle. Some of them are without a doubt worlds of their own, like shown in Mario Kart World, where this is taken to the extreme with a small multiverse as an example from a single Power Star, or Tick-Tock Clock.

Both sides are (partially) right. Let's keep this in mind.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Sorry for not responding for a long while, just taking me a bit to get my irl stuff in order and recheck my claims

 

[Chariot190]

You people really don't get it do you?
The fact that we know paintings that act and behave and are functionally identical do not translocate to alternate universes but to elsewhere in the same universe, means that you can not make the claim you're being transported to a different world you have to prove it for every single case explicitly.

Tick Tock Clock is a notable one, its a literal world all about the clock in the castle itself. And the way I see it, bowser just creates worlds based on the paintings or whatever else in the castle and then wanted to take it over from there.

Tick Tock Clock is a bad example given Mario Kart lore and descriptions evidently do not point to Bowser creating it whatsoever.
The way you see it is vibes, you need proof, as the way I SEE it based on the original Japanese material, paintings seen elsewhere, and multiple stages throughout the game reappearing in different contexts outside of paintings in the greater franchise; they act as portals to alternate locations, not completely new space-time dimensions (unless stated or priven otherwise).

Should also note the Black Jewel does the exact same thing, it creates the world, and then wants to take over it making its own kingdom, so I don't really consider it a contradiction and can be explained like this.

Dude. That's literally not even the same character or scenario anymore?
It's a contradiction because the very statement that SAYS Bowser was creating worlds doesn't even exist and says something completely different in the original source.
You can not say they're compatible as it's not a case of "these two statements exist simultaneously" it's "these two statements replace each other". You only get one at time.

You're arguing this like the statements exist in conjuction but they don't, they exist exclusively.

My point exactly. There's an obvious distinction that is being ignored- especially considering how different the falling animations are for each one. One takes you out of the painting/wall, the other removes you from the castle altogether.

Bowser 2, Big Boo's Haunt, literally those same stages if you die instead of fall, Secret Slide too so your whole falling example don't even work as one blatantly part of the same set you tried to push as not counting shares the same animations, etc.
Your examples and rules have no consistency. Then there's fringe cases like Fortress, Bowser 2 (given according to you a lack of sfx means it doesn't qualify?), TTC, etc. that If anything it maks more sense when he dies not simply an exit method. Two of which are particularly bad because they include your endless statements yet know they aren't products of Bowser either way.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

You people really don't get it do you?

 

[Chariot190]

The like 5 above my reply that seem to not understand our very explicit wiki rules on this subject to where if it happens again I'm just going to make a discussion rule on this because it's evidently something ya'll ain't complying with which isn't a choice should you want to be here.

That being you, Emile, Galactidot, Alloy and based on likes, Omni, Henshin.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

bruh i used a gif meme as a joke and bro took it deadass lmao

 

[Chariot190]

bruh i used a gif meme as a joke and bro took it deadass lmao

Yes I'm answering your questions seriously. If I were to treat what you say as a joke that really wouldn't help your thread.

Either comply and do things right within rules and stop derailing your own thread: otherwise someone else can remake the thread like Emile or Omni and it can be staff only.

 

[JPTheGamer]

You people really don't get it do you?
The fact that we know paintings that act and behave and are functionally identical do not translocate to alternate universes but to elsewhere in the same universe, means that you can not make the claim you're being transported to a different world you have to prove it for every single case explicitly.

@Chariot190 To be fair, I think the evidence the OP provided could further suggest the painting worlds in Peach's Castle can be bigger in size.

SUPER MARIO 64: ​

Why yes, this will be my first one, and while I’m fully aware of the various arguments about this game that exist across this Wiki (as I read some of it myself), I find it necessary to summarize and expand upon the arguments.

The plot of Super Mario 64 is quite simple; Bower directly invades Peach’s castle and steals 70 of the 120 stars that serve as the protectors of Peach’s castle. He uses these to create his own worlds within the paintings and walls, all served to cause an upheaval to the world of Mario, with some theories suggesting what his plans were for this. But, some say that these worlds aren’t their own universes. Let’s dismantle that, shall we?





Within each of these many worlds (as they are said to be), they, at the very least, contain mass bodies of stars within the skies.

But, these can get even larger, as both Shifting Sand Land, Tick Tock Clock, AND Hazy Maze Cave are both stated to be endless or infinite in size and scope.



(Translation: "If you sink with your head, you won't be able to breathe. The black places are very dangerous!! They are bottomless underworlds!" ← Note that they are multiple these “underworlds”.)

Source: Nintendo Power (which is canonically mentioned material, no less. Adding further, it’s been recently mentioned and talked about in the Nintendo Today, something even Miyamoto himself decided to promote himself!).

While some may decry this as an "exaggeration", I find it incredibly odd that there are TWO Worlds within the exact same game to BOTH be called “endless” and “bottomless”, with some translations of the twice above Japanese text even possibly calling them “infinite” underworlds. But, this is very much consistent and non-contradictory with what we can actually observe within the games themselves, as I showed how there are an abundance of the many stars within the skies of these many worlds.

So, as I’ve shown, each of the worlds in Super Mario 64 are not only different from each other, there is enough evidence to suggest that these worlds are infinite in size, making it clear that the 70 Power Stars are collectively able to make 15 High 3-A sized worlds.

“But Ultra, the Japanese Translations are all flawed! Even the Toad by the door of Peach’s castle only says “カイブツのくに” (monster kingdom)!” - (Lucky Emilie Notes: Kuni is more like "country", I think, since, say, Mushroom Kingdom is the 'kinoko oukoku', not 'kinoko kuni', but I guess “kingdom” is not bad for just how summing up what others say).

Well, my good sir, that is an odd argument if I’ve ever seen one. While yes, this IS what Toad happens to say in the Japanese version, it still wouldn’t counter that other evidence within Super Mario 64’s Japanese version. Take, for example, the Toad by Hazy Maze Cave:

https://****************/file/d/1AGLyzjOzwNU6EnRee665xcTyW_jzHUvh/view?usp=sharing

“えのほかにかべのなかにもモンスターの　せかいがあります。あっ！これもっていって　ください。かくして　もってました”.

As you can see above, this Toad DOES use “World” here: “せかい”. Notably, this is also the case in the official Super Mario 64 Japanese Manual:

https://****************/file/d/1hJI73NZwqNfFlCTOfYNbQ__0KgnSMCXq/view?usp=sharing

Translation: “There, an entirely different world was spread out before him!” ← Some other translations have slightly different wording, but the concept is that Bob-Omb battlefield is a separate world from Mario’s. (Lucky Emilie Notes: Considering the lobby Toad was noted to have said 'kaibutsu no kuni', might as well point out HMC Toad said 'monsutaa no sekai' to reflect the idea it's a 'monster world')

It’s also referred to as a “world inside the painting” right here:

https://****************/file/d/1MO8KnTvOceGxuJNFQflfgx623TrzKHQV/view?usp=sharing

Counter Argument: “Okay, sure, but how would you even know they’re separate worlds? The Japanese language doesn’t have plurals, remember?”

Sharp point. So, how do we know that they ARE separate? Well, check the context from the manual:

“響われたパワースターは、絵の世界のさまざまな場所に隠されています。知恵と力をフルに使って取り戻し、キノコ城に平和をよみがえらせてください。”

“The scattered Power Stars are hidden in various places in the painting worlds. Using your wisdom and strength to the fullest, recover them, and please restore peace to Mushroom Castle.”

This is also reflected in the Japanese text when you first enter Bob-Omb Battlefield;

https://****************/file/d/1abTqHIzSRB4v7IVi_ktpErHeeOoeCvbG/view?usp=sharing

"おおっと、ここはキケンなせんじょうの　どまんなか。 『え』のなかのせかいにはクッパが　めすんだパワースターがある。"

(Translation: “Whoa! This is right in the middle of a dangerous battlefield. Inside the world within this painting, there is a Power Star that Bowser has hidden.”)

We can be confident by this (which does say “world inside the painting; 「え」のなかのせかい”) that these are distinct and separate worlds. Anyhow, I think this covers most of the arguments that are against Super Mario 64, and should solidify the, at the bare minimum, 3-A rating thereof.

They DO have their own "bottomless", "endless", and/or "infinite" statements as well as celestial bodies and histories, which this part of the proposal seems to emphasize on. Worlds in fiction are usually depicted to be planets or universes, but seeing as how there's more to these paintings than just an Earth-like construct, I think it's fair to say they have the potential to be larger than on a mere planetary to multi-solar system scale, with the possibility of being universal.