Super Mario Bros: The Ultimate 3-A (and above!) CRT

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Wheeew, boy. Alrightly, ladies & gentlemen, this is gonna be a wild ride. My first CRT last year (wow, it’s been that long?!) didn’t exactly pan out… but, I'm willing to give this all a second go, but, this time, I’m ready: this is gonna be a complete post that will cover not only the arguments, but also all of those pesky counter-arguments that happen to plague the landscape of Mario-based powerscaling. And this time, I’ll cover more than one measly feat.

Also, I am aware of the other threads covering this, but this is a broad and wide-spanning CRT that covers WAY more than all the others.

Both the scans and the original google doc can be found here:

Super Mario Bros: The Ultimate 3-A (and perhaps even above) CRT - Vs Battle Wiki

Wheeew, boy. Alrightly, ladies & gentlemen, this is gonna be a wild ride. My first CRT last year (wow, it’s been that long?!) didn’t exactly pan out… but, I'm willing to give this all a second go, but, this time, I’m ready: this is gonna be a complete post that will cover not only the arguments, ...

docs.google.com

https://****************/drive/folders/1O7eAAssBxJWOB7KT6TefNx7POR6w5OJb?usp=drive_link

But enough nonsense, let’s-a go! (This was also written in part by the absolute GOAT @LuckyEmile ).

SUPER MARIO 64: ​

Why yes, this will be my first one, and while I’m fully aware of the various arguments about this game that exist across this Wiki (as I read some of it myself), I find it necessary to summarize and expand upon the arguments.

The plot of Super Mario 64 is quite simple; Bower directly invades Peach’s castle and steals 70 of the 120 stars that serve as the protectors of Peach’s castle. He uses these to create his own worlds within the paintings and walls, all served to cause an upheaval to the world of Mario, with some theories suggesting what his plans were for this. But, some say that these worlds aren’t their own universes. Let’s dismantle that, shall we?





Within each of these many worlds (as they are said to be), they, at the very least, contain mass bodies of stars within the skies.

But, these can get even larger, as both Shifting Sand Land, Tick Tock Clock, AND Hazy Maze Cave are both stated to be endless or infinite in size and scope.

https://****************/file/d/1AXgpij0p2zUk4rj3kJeKUz3Gw06dZ3Gi/view?usp=sharing
https://****************/file/d/1kaE-Odjd-aaeTJ1WDIa71avlPai6Itq3/view?usp=sharing
(Translation: "If you sink with your head, you won't be able to breathe. The black places are very dangerous!! They are bottomless underworlds!" ← Note that they are multiple these “underworlds”.)

Source: Nintendo Power (which is canonically mentioned material, no less. Adding further, it’s been recently mentioned and talked about in the Nintendo Today, something even Miyamoto himself decided to promote himself!).

While some may decry this as an "exaggeration", I find it incredibly odd that there are TWO Worlds within the exact same game to BOTH be called “endless” and “bottomless”, with some translations of the twice above Japanese text even possibly calling them “infinite” underworlds. But, this is very much consistent and non-contradictory with what we can actually observe within the games themselves, as I showed how there are an abundance of the many stars within the skies of these many worlds.

So, as I’ve shown, each of the worlds in Super Mario 64 are not only different from each other, there is enough evidence to suggest that these worlds are infinite in size, making it clear that the 70 Power Stars are collectively able to make 15 High 3-A sized worlds.

“But Ultra, the Japanese Translations are all flawed! Even the Toad by the door of Peach’s castle only says “カイブツのくに” (monster kingdom)!” - (Lucky Emilie Notes: Kuni is more like "country", I think, since, say, Mushroom Kingdom is the 'kinoko oukoku', not 'kinoko kuni', but I guess “kingdom” is not bad for just how summing up what others say).

Well, my good sir, that is an odd argument if I’ve ever seen one. While yes, this IS what Toad happens to say in the Japanese version, it still wouldn’t counter that other evidence within Super Mario 64’s Japanese version. Take, for example, the Toad by Hazy Maze Cave:

https://****************/file/d/1AGLyzjOzwNU6EnRee665xcTyW_jzHUvh/view?usp=sharing

“えのほかにかべのなかにもモンスターの　せかいがあります。あっ！これもっていって　ください。かくして　もってました”.

As you can see above, this Toad DOES use “World” here: “せかい”. Notably, this is also the case in the official Super Mario 64 Japanese Manual:

https://****************/file/d/1hJI73NZwqNfFlCTOfYNbQ__0KgnSMCXq/view?usp=sharing

Translation: “There, an entirely different world was spread out before him!” ← Some other translations have slightly different wording, but the concept is that Bob-Omb battlefield is a separate world from Mario’s. (Lucky Emilie Notes: Considering the lobby Toad was noted to have said 'kaibutsu no kuni', might as well point out HMC Toad said 'monsutaa no sekai' to reflect the idea it's a 'monster world')

It’s also referred to as a “world inside the painting” right here:

https://****************/file/d/1MO8KnTvOceGxuJNFQflfgx623TrzKHQV/view?usp=sharing

Counter Argument: “Okay, sure, but how would you even know they’re separate worlds? The Japanese language doesn’t have plurals, remember?”

Sharp point. So, how do we know that they ARE separate? Well, check the context from the manual:

“響われたパワースターは、絵の世界のさまざまな場所に隠されています。知恵と力をフルに使って取り戻し、キノコ城に平和をよみがえらせてください。”

“The scattered Power Stars are hidden in various places in the painting worlds. Using your wisdom and strength to the fullest, recover them, and please restore peace to Mushroom Castle.”

This is also reflected in the Japanese text when you first enter Bob-Omb Battlefield;

https://****************/file/d/1abTqHIzSRB4v7IVi_ktpErHeeOoeCvbG/view?usp=sharing

"おおっと、ここはキケンなせんじょうの　どまんなか。 『え』のなかのせかいにはクッパが　めすんだパワースターがある。"

(Translation: “Whoa! This is right in the middle of a dangerous battlefield. Inside the world within this painting, there is a Power Star that Bowser has hidden.”)

We can be confident by this (which does say “world inside the painting; 「え」のなかのせかい”) that these are distinct and separate worlds. Anyhow, I think this covers most of the arguments that are against Super Mario 64, and should solidify the, at the bare minimum, 3-A rating thereof.

MARIO PARTY 2:​

Now, this is some very interesting territory that we’re entering here, as LuckyEmile so interestingly pointed out to me. She points out that the Mario cast (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Wario and Donkey Kong) create their own world;

https://****************/file/d/1NbBP5FGxz8jahKCqGX1LpUWtbpxe_UdY/view?usp=sharing

(Bonus Note: Even non-scalers interpret it like that).

Now, of course, there are already a massive heap of objections everyone will naturally have to this; but let’s have us a solid look at the context of the situation:

https://****************/file/d/1pbk1GWK3s9TP9WqJCVbITFO7c-WZbpAN/view?usp=sharing

In this, Mario and crew create a world built upon their own dreams (which would entail it was made OF their dreams), which are elaborated on in future games as their own separate universes. But let’s see an example of one of these many worlds they created; such as Space Land!

Space Land is referred to as “Deep Space” by the Koopa Troopa, and the Japanese Version goes even FURTHER to claim that they brought peace to the Universe.

https://****************/file/d/16DIgTF3qRRuKQevU2fdi5LnFcYmuIj3o/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/19nWVpnIwWw8OZQdt20mkho7fjmGI5Fqk/view?usp=sharing

“うちゅうのへいわ！”
(Translation: “Peace in the universe!”)

This is also elaborated upon the description of Space Land in the Japanese Version:

https://****************/file/d/1QsqmwCB351ptk8eVRy-eNyCmFrydFDHr/view?usp=sharing

“「スペースランド」　むずかしさ　☆☆ うちゅうパトロールになって ぎんがのへいわを　まもりましょう。”

https://****************/file/d/1K97EJ-Np2VpEpLTnGgQ6kchEk0DDbMTz/view?usp=sharing

(Translation: “‘Space Land’ — Difficulty: ☆☆ Become a space patrol and protect peace in the galaxy.”)

https://****************/file/d/1G9-6dhCwZEXYdT-KKVzRE_tZTf2gCZfk/view?usp=sharing
“うちゅうのへいわをまもって スペースランドのスーパースターを めざしましょう!”

(Translation: "Protect the peace of the universe and aim to become to superstar of Space Land!”)

https://****************/file/d/1gjtLbROhj3pQI6K5msSLnN3oUDe3LadH/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/1uxXnPw8pg5NGvrdrQ8FMGqK3YQS5972N/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/16DIgTF3qRRuKQevU2fdi5LnFcYmuIj3o/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/1K97EJ-Np2VpEpLTnGgQ6kchEk0DDbMTz/view?usp=sharing

(LuckyEmily Notes: The Koopa is pretty much saying that there appears to be signs of conflict in this peaceful universe once again, and so the people of the universe either need a Superstar or are looking for one, and he'd like them to act as the Superstar. The Snifit says he'll chase people to the end of the universe (宇宙の果て) >:3).

https://****************/file/d/1sShpwQ-aPBjpT_AuEB2pvlybdMYTFikF/view?usp=sharing

“宇宙の不思議”.

(Translation + LuckyEmilie Notes: “It says 宇宙の不思議... mysteries of the universe. This page is specifically about "mysterious stuff from Space Land's board" in this context, so it just solidifies that Space Land is a universe.)

ALL of this evidence combined provides a solid contextual argument as to why Super Mario 64 wasn’t the ONLY 3-A or higher Mario game in the 64 era!

Mario & Luigi: Dream Team:​

Well, well, well… this is an interesting one. While most of the scaling has already been done in CRTs again and again, this is just going to be a simple one, as I (which was mentioned in another CRT) can prove that Base Mario alone can scale to Dreamy Antasma… check this out:

https://youtu.be/WSCiqPUT7Kk?si=Muw3g0LXYYWfikBr&t=275
https://youtu.be/y-heSia7xLs?t=119

This should also make the idea that Bowser can take on a base Anstasma more realistic, who’s current state of being was caused in part by the fact he consumed nightmares.

https://youtu.be/WSCiqPUT7Kk?si=H7kME_rV75xkyxoA&t=15
https://youtu.be/YTkZXmkQfds?t=1324

In both of these, Mario can, at the very least, keep up with this powerful incarnation of Antasma for a good period of time, which would make his battle with Dreamy Bowser much more believable as a whole.

WARIO WORLD​

Ooooh, another interesting one. Many right now believe Wario has no known scaling to the Black Jewel himself due to this:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/wario-tanks-the-destruction-of-the-universe-but-not-really.120287/

Well, the evidence was a tad off, since…
“Black Jewel's AP section claims that he created a universe. The evidence comes from Nintendo's European website which states: “While Wario rests, the Jewel begins to morph his treasure trove into a melee of monsters, transforming the basement of Wario's castle into a bizarre parallel universe.”

Well, we actually found some additional sources for that! The JAPANESE Website!

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ngc/gwwj/tengoku/index.html
さらに、黒い宝石は自分達の王国をつくろうとワリオ城を不思議な世界にしてしまいました。

(Translation: “Furthermore, the Black Jewel turned Wario Castle into a mysterious world in an attempt to create its own kingdom.”)
We can also use the English Manual to somewhat back this up:

https://****************/file/d/1revn1B_lwcWz5cgFNvyND1ZKn6OE7Zn6/view?usp=sharing

“And was changing Wario’s world into quite a weird place”.
This is further elaborated upon in the very intro of the game itself, where we see the Black Jewel exert its power, while Wario is flung across into this new world.
https://youtu.be/XVWQ0bmMFfA?si=7Y6oNsE6nq1HvvTC&t=87

Now, there was a common counter, as displayed here:

"It was argued in a previous thread that Black Jewel's attacks should scale to his creation. Although, for a reality warping feat to scale to energy attacks or physicals, we need some kind of proof, which I can't find anywhere. He also stated that he was filled with power to the level where it was overflowing. We also see red sparkles coming out of him all the while until he transforms Wario's basement into a universe. It seems that this reality warping needs him to be at his absolute max, and we don't see any such visual effects during his other energy or physical attacks where he simply shoots a fire laser from his eye."


This… isn’t much of an argument. Firstly, it does not say, “overflowing” but rather “chock-full”. Perhaps not a difference you may not see as relevant, but absolutely an exaggeration. But here’s the deal; here’s how they see Wario:

https://****************/file/d/12HdSl6t8ccfQL0zEQdWnKYUVMRGAH02R/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/1revn1B_lwcWz5cgFNvyND1ZKn6OE7Zn6/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/12HdSl6t8ccfQL0zEQdWnKYUVMRGAH02R/view?usp=sharing

He’s called a “Greedy Sap”. which is interesting considering that this character gains their power via the wishes and desires of other people, which someone like Wario was PLENTY of. This means that the Black Jewel is gaining much of his power through Wario’s sheer greed and lust, which is exemplified, since the Black Jewel fight happens within Wario’s presence. Odd to say they wouldn’t still have access to such power.

(LuckyEmile Notes: Probably just Wario. They mentioned it’s been sealed for so long everyone forgot about it, so I don’t think anyone was able to get near enough to the Black Jewel to be fed off, so Wario is really just their only fuel source! Like… you could be like “oh, between finding it and taking it home, maybe Wario carried it past people” but, like, you know. Maybe you’re splitting hairs then and not like we can say for sure he did pass anyone by. The English manual mentions some red moon was relevant here too but I dunno what they were going with with that)

I think that all this is enough to really solidify this feat as a valid one.

SUPER MARIO RPG​

Ah, dis one. This'll be fun. But, let’s see… Culex should absolutely scale at 3-A or above at the lowest, and this solidified from his two appearances in SMRPG and the remake, as the guide (from Nintendo Power) notes him being the master of time and space.
This is then exemplified as he is called; “この世の悪の全てをすべる者” (Controller of all evil in the world).

All of this is brought together within his Japanese and English incarnations;
https://youtu.be/2mhbIG3dmzQ?t=40

(Translation: O travelers who appear before me…. I am Crystaller, ruler of all evil in this world. On this spot, I feel and resonate with fluctuations emitted from a dimensional rift. You living ones before me… Why do you possess thickness? Why do you have such solidity? I am made of the power of evil. My form is depicted on naught but a flat surface. Yet you are formed from a power foreign to me. I wish to know the secret of the solid world! I shall fight with the utmost of my power. Now, demonstrate your might!)

After some combat, he then says…
https://youtu.be/2mhbIG3dmzQ?t=61

(Translation: I am formed from the supreme power. None in this world surpass me. Across time, from this world’s beginning to its end, I am the inheritor of the ultimate of Two. Now you will realize my strength!! Come forth, o power that rules over all creation!!).

This also fits within the context of the English Version;
https://youtu.be/30DyYkoNH9Q?t=42

“I am antimatter… I can see your past… I can see your future… I consume time…”.

This is completely and utterly confirmed in the Switch remake of the game, where these themes are supported;

https://youtu.be/InBJDaNh69Y?t=47 ← He says the exact same thing as last time.
https://youtu.be/4vDamuVTVmg?t=60 ← The exact same thing.

Why no, it does not matter what his physiology is “2D”, these statements are uncontradicted, and on top of that, “2D” and “3D” are defined in an interesting way here.

He says that he’s “made of the power of evil. My form is depicted on naught but a flat surface”.

But when he talks about Mario’s 3D World, he says…

“The power of the third dimension is that power of legend. The power said to far surpass the fluctuations of evil. Love, friendship, joy…. The power of hope for peace…. It appears this strength is too much for me.”

In conclusion… yea. Culex is certainly 3-A or higher, it’s so blatant that I may as well say that arguments against this might be considered raw copium. This would apply to Mario, Peach, Bowser, Mallow and Geno since they were able to take down Culex, and all of them are able to damage and tank hits from him respectively.

MARIO PARTY 5​

Well, well, well… I talked about this a lot during my original 2-A CRT, but my CRT still had some weight, as I was able to prove that the Star Spirits created the Dream Depot itself, which should absolutely contains tons of Dreams (i.e Universes);
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ngc/gp5j/cnt_1/tip04.html

Bowser should scale at or above the Star Spirits, since they needed the help of Mario and Crew to take him down, to which Bowser was going to destroy the dreams and replace them with his own, as stated by Misstar & Bowser;
https://youtu.be/tjT0yeA050E?t=241
https://youtu.be/tjT0yeA050E

He also states this again in game, SO MANY DARN TIMES.

https://****************/file/d/1A3QhJTfdQ_f8hF5L_Z2HkwNQ1da8FjOc/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/1Og_19HPJOt223Qyn9VoHOt_3MnoE0Yl1/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/1bCyQNE3d8TjZrFuKpIiWjhrMhkLHFWI0/view?usp=sharing

(Translation: "Bwahaha! I’ll destroy this Sweet Dream and turn it into my own, you heeear!!") <-- Repeat that, but change the description of the dream.

(LuckyEmilie Notes: Looking to the Mario Party 5 section of the Japanese Nintendo website for anything further, I found a summary of the story. It notes that Bowser "started to do evil things" and taunts "If you want to save the world of dreams, you'll have to fight us!!", which basically confirms the idea that he's doing it to lure in powerful challengers to grant the wish he's had for many years of fighting someone strong. As for Misstar's claim about people being able to dream again after Bowser's defeat, in Japanese she says "Thanks to you, everyone's dreams were protected. With this, everyone throughout the world can dream with peace of mind, my dear. ... ... Today, as it has been before, I'm sure everyone's wonderful dreams will come and gather in Dream Depot." ( なたのおかげで、 みんなの夢は守られました/護られました。 これで、 世界中の誰もがあんし んして夢見ることができるわ。 ...きょうもユメミールには、すてきな夢が集まって来るで). Whilst she says that people can now dream "with a clear mind" or "without worry", implying that it's not that people couldn't dream but would just not have a very nice experience when dreaming, she goes on to say about how Dream Depot will continue to be a place where dreams can come together once again, which seems to suggest they wouldn't have been able to otherwise, so it does seem pretty consistent that Bowser was a threat to Dream Depot's entirety and stopped dreams from gathering there).

CONCLUSION​

The flaw with my original CRT, apparently, was that this was an “outlier”. Well, this while CRT should have enough feats to nail into the ground that there should be serious consideration for Mario and Co. to be upgraded to 3-A or even higher.


BONUS INFORMATION!
I don't know WHY I forgot to add this, but the 3D Culex fight notes that he will consume ALL of Time and Space.
https://youtu.be/8b9-1K3r80I?t=67

It's even more blatant this time, and something that didn't exist in the original SNES version of the game.

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Yet again, special thanks to @LuckyEmile for helping me translate and write this!

Also @Niarobi_(Formerly_Hadou) asked to be included.

 

[Armorchompy]

Official material =/= canonical material. Nintendo Power isn't an acceptable source, and that excerpt is from an interview or a guide (I don't remember which, it's 3:30 AM, I am really tired, and I don't want to go checking). "No bottom" and "endless pit" are clearly just gamey terms to say there's a hole you'll die if you fall in, not lore information. This specific piece of evidence was directly rejected in an older thread and since you aren't bringing anything new to the table there isn't really a discussion to be had here.

The rest was also gone over years ago. Something being described as a World isn't implication of universal size. You can tangibly see that most of the worlds are pretty tiny, and "world" is a common term to indicate a unique environment or a videogame level - hell in the Mario series specifically uses it to describe areas of play. These aren't universes. And before you try to cook up some argument as to why these are different, this is extremely weak evidence even in a vacuum.

(Translation: “Furthermore, the Black Jewel turned Wario Castle into a mysterious world in an attempt to create its own kingdom.”)

“And was changing Wario’s world into quite a weird place”.

This in no way implies universal scope. As explained before "world" in this context doesn't even mean 5-B, let alone tier 2. The wording here in particular debunks that interpretation, given Wario does not own the entire universe.

He’s called a “Greedy Sap”. which is interesting considering that this character gains their power via the wishes and desires of other people, which someone like Wario was PLENTY of. This means that the Black Jewel is gaining much of his power through Wario’s sheer greed and lust, which is exemplified, since the Black Jewel fight happens within Wario’s presence. Odd to say they wouldn’t still have access to such power.

All you've done is show that he has the Empowerment ability, then drawn a tenuous connection between it and Wario's greed, it isn't evidence for a UES. Our standards are nowhere near as loose as "show the character gains power from something".

(Translation: O travelers who appear before me…. I am Crystaller, ruler of all evil in this world. On this spot, I feel and resonate with fluctuations emitted from a dimensional rift. You living ones before me… Why do you possess thickness? Why do you have such solidity? I am made of the power of evil. My form is depicted on naught but a flat surface. Yet you are formed from a power foreign to me. I wish to know the secret of the solid world! I shall fight with the utmost of my power. Now, demonstrate your might!)

After some combat, he then says…


(Translation: I am formed from the supreme power. None in this world surpass me. Across time, from this world’s beginning to its end, I am the inheritor of the ultimate of Two. Now you will realize my strength!! Come forth, o power that rules over all creation!!).

Nothing here is tier 3, or really any tier. Culex is 2D (in a weird not really 2D way given he has 3D AP and range), and he boasts about being very strong.

This also fits within the context of the English Version;


“I am antimatter… I can see your past… I can see your future… I consume time…”.

This is completely and utterly confirmed in the Switch remake of the game, where these themes are supported;

The English translations, both for the original and the Switch (the new stuff is also inaccurate) aren't usable. We don't accept mistranslations as canonical material.

Bowser should scale at or above the Star Spirits, since they needed the help of Mario and Crew to take him down

No proof that their stats scale to their creation ability.

to which Bowser was going to destroy the dreams and replace them with his own, as stated by Misstar & Bowser;

"Destroy them one by one", Misstar specifically says. Not exactly 2-A. But regardless nowhere is it said that he's doing it with his own power, let alone in a combat applicable manner.

The flaw with my original CRT, apparently, was that this was an “outlier”. Well, this while CRT should have enough feats to nail into the ground that there should be serious consideration for Mario and Co. to be upgraded to 3-A or even higher.

Yeah there's only like 130 anti-feats this really evens it out.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm bout to say a slur gang.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm bout to say a slur gang.

I'll say it for you:

ELITE PREFERRED SPECIES.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Lol. Lmao, even.

Official material =/= canonical material. Nintendo Power isn't an acceptable source, and that excerpt is from an interview or a guide (I don't remember which, it's 3:30 AM, I am really tired, and I don't want to go checking). "No bottom" and "endless pit" are clearly just gamey terms to say there's a hole you'll die if you fall in, not lore information. This specific piece of evidence was directly rejected in an older thread and since you aren't bringing anything new to the table there isn't really a discussion to be had here.

Yes, it does. These are official guides presented by Nintendo, the onus is on you to prove that this material is non-canon. And this comes from the guides, as my CRT quite literally speaks on. The Japanese statement noting that the holes in SSL are "bottomless underworlds", and also... why can't it be literal? The clock tower was described by the guide as having "no bottom", it can mean both.

The rest was also gone over years ago. Something being described as a World isn't implication of universal size. You can tangibly see that most of the worlds are pretty tiny, and "world" is a common term to indicate a unique environment or a videogame level - hell in the Mario series specifically uses it to describe areas of play. These aren't universes. And before you try to cook up some argument as to why these are different, this is extremely weak evidence even in a vacuum.

It was gone over years ago!? Wow! What a logical argument! I guess I'll have to bow to "muh consensus"!... As to the next point, that's what we call "context". The worlds in Super Mario 64 have their own space and time, including their own stars and suns. "World" in Mario can have multiple definitions, from small plots of land covering the Peach's castle area to the massive expanses in Super Mario Galaxy 2. The context from Super Mario 64 shows that these Worlds are Universes.

This in no way implies universal scope. As explained before "world" in this context doesn't even mean 5-B, let alone tier 2. The wording here in particular debunks that interpretation, given Wario does not own the entire universe.

Unless you're claiming Wario's basement is the size of all the areas Wario goes to in this game, I think you need to recheck that claim. And again, the idea that the world the Black Jewel creates being a Universe is supported by the European and not contradicted by Japanese website. This world also happens to have it's own sun as well.

All you've done is show that he has the Empowerment ability, then drawn a tenuous connection between it and Wario's greed, it isn't evidence for a UES. Our standards are nowhere near as loose as "show the character gains power from something".

I've shown that the Black Jewel draws power from Wario's greed and lust, as the Jewel draws power from the desires of others. The only person's desire the Black Jewel can even tap into in Wario's castle would be Wario himself. My logic is so simple lmao. The Black Jewel creates a Universe using the treasure and desires of Wario.

Nothing here is tier 3, or really any tier. Culex is 2D (in a weird not really 2D way given he has 3D AP and range), and he boasts about being very strong.

..."come forth, o power that RULES OVER ALL CREATION". Did you read my post, or did you just skip everything that was said? This is hilarious.

"Destroy them one by one", Misstar specifically says. Not exactly 2-A. But regardless nowhere is it said that he's doing it with his own power, let alone in a combat applicable manner.

It's directly implied. He says he is going to destroy the Dream Worlds, and Misstar herself says this as well. Why would they BOTH be lying here? There's no external object Bowser is shown to be using during or around his claims to destroying the Dream Worlds. This basic Occam's Razor.

 

[Chariot190]

Yes, it does. These are official guides presented by Nintendo, the onus is on you to prove that this material is non-canon.

Real quick, do me a favor and open the front page of said guides to see who wrote it.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Real quick, do me a favor and open the front page of said guides to see who wrote it.

It was production managed by Yoshibo Tsuboike and Senior written by Scott Pelland and Dan Owsen. It was edited by Leslie Swan.

So what?

 

[Chariot190]

It was production managed by Yoshibo Tsuboike and Senior written by Scott Pelland and Dan Owsen. It was edited by Leslie Swan.

So what?

The "so what" being which one of those has any actual involvement, inside say, and so forth?
The problem with using Nintendo Power, is that they're almost never written or have direct connections to any sources that actually matter. Especially back then where everyone just kind of did their own thing, it's precisely why some guides aren't just out of nowhere lore yap, but even straight up wrong in even the strategy guide facet (which i the actual point of them no less), it's just whoever is writing it writing whatever.

If you want to use a canon guide, use something like a shogakukan guide or something as those often work directly with the dev teams and creators.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

The "so what" being which one of those has any actual involvement, inside say, and so forth?
The problem with using Nintendo Power, is that they're almost never written or have direct connections to any sources that actually matter. Especially back then where everyone just kind of did their own thing, it's precisely why some guides aren't just out of nowhere lore yap, but even straight up wrong in even the strategy guide facet (which i the actual point of them no less), it's just whoever is writing it writing whatever.

If you want to use a canon guide, use something like a shogakukan guide or something as those often work directly with the dev teams and creators.

They have contact with the actual owners of the Mario IP, pal, that's all that actually matters. Just because an element is wrong does not mean by nature everything else it may claim is also wrong, especially considering that nothing I say here is contradicted by the game itself. If you want to knock every instance of the guides being wrong as opposed to being right, the guides get it right far more often than they make errors.

If you want to use a canon guide, use something like a shogakukan guide or something as those often work directly with the dev teams and creators.

The official company still references Nintendo Power itself, even Miyamoto himself promoted it;

it’s been recently mentioned and talked about in the Nintendo Today, something even Miyamoto himself decided to promote himself!).

But, Mr. Chariot190, if you want a more "official" guide, I'm happy to provide. The Super Mario 64 Complete Clear Guide, a Japanese guide, tell us as much about Whomp's Fortress, so allow yourself to calm your worries.


"岩から外に落ちると奈落の底なので注意"
Translation: “Be careful, because if you fall off the rock, you’ll go into the bottomless pit. (abyss)”.

There are some other statements with similar wording in this guide as well, but I'd need a while to get them down. I believe that the Rainbow Ride stage has a similar statement in regards to it, but I'd need to hunt it down.

 

[Chariot190]

They have contact with the actual owners of the Mario IP, pal, that's all that actually matters.

Ok so prove they had contact, oversight and more. Because I can list off a slew of Nintendo NA facets that explicitly did not at the time.

Just because an element is wrong does not mean by nature everything else it may claim is also wrong,

Automatically puts everything into scrutiny though. How do we know what's actually legitimate and what isn't if we know some isn't and what is needed for your case is OC material to said book not cited elsewhere?

especially considering that nothing I say here is contradicted by the game itself.

Uh... You sure you wanna go down that road?

If you want to knock every instance of the guides being wrong as opposed to being right, the guides get it right far more often than they make errors.

I am sure that a guide intended to be correct will get lots of basic things correct like "hit block for mushroom", unfortunately that isn't what you're using it for.
Of course not, what you're doing is using info you can only find in guides otherwise why even use them? And at that point it's on you to prove that relevant sources had direct involvement and overview of it so it isn't uh, Scott Pelland ig? Yapping like they often do to add a lil flavor.

The official company still references Nintendo Power itself, even Miyamoto himself promoted it;

I'm sure they promote their own brand. Why wouldn't they?
Did you know we just had a thread that says simply having approval from the main writer doesn't automatically canonize something?

But, Mr. Chariot190, if you want a more "official" guide, I'm happy to provide. The Super Mario 64 Complete Clear Guide, a Japanese guide, tell us as much about Whomp's Fortress, so allow yourself to calm your worries.


"岩から外に落ちると奈落の底なので注意"
Translation: “Be careful, because if you fall off the rock, you’ll go into the bottomless pit. (abyss)”.

There are some other statements with similar wording in this guide as well, but I'd need a while to get them down. I believe that the Rainbow Ride stage has a similar statement in regards to it, but I'd need to hunt it down.

I looked into that one, it had direct contact with the devs, miyamoto, and more, including extensive commentary, behind the scenes, direct asset access, etc. That guide is evidently fine to use. I have zero issue with guides if they're actually provably legit sources.
Nintendo Power is not unless you can prove the specific issue has merit.

 

[Eseseso]

Even if this is accepted, can't we have a "Varies" tier for the Mario gang? Something like "High 6-A, up to 3-A at peak".

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Even if this is accepted, can't we have a "Varies" tier for the Mario gang? Something like "High 6-A, up to 3-A at peak".

I’m super down with this, but I know that’s been opposed before.

Also more than half the 130 anti feats are gameplay but that’s besides the point.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Even if this is accepted, can't we have a "Varies" tier for the Mario gang? Something like "High 6-A, up to 3-A at peak".

Unless there's an in-universe explanation for them randomly jumping to cosmic levels before going back to more reasonable levels and struggling with tier 8 feats, we're not giving them a varies rating. There's instances of Mario and Luigi getting stronger in the M&L series only to be nerfed the next game due to not fighting for a while but that's about it.

 

[JJSliderman]

Feels bad man, do agree with a lot of these feats but I imagine they will not be accepted, like the last time.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Ok so prove they had contact, oversight and more. Because I can list off a slew of Nintendo NA facets that explicitly did not at the time.

They did by the feature of them even being allowed to. Nintendo allowed it to be published, and allowed it to be called official.

Automatically puts everything into scrutiny though. How do we know what's actually legitimate and what isn't if we know some isn't and what is needed for your case is OC material to said book not cited elsewhere?

Even fictional material on its own will get things wrong about itself or contradict it. Making an error is not a crumbling force that suddenly removes every single other statement. Anything that doesn't contradict the games outright should be considered as legitimate.

Uh... You sure you wanna go down that road?

Sure, why not? Show me a single thing in that guidebook that contradicts any statement I provided above.

I am sure that a guide intended to be correct will get lots of basic things correct like "hit block for mushroom", unfortunately that isn't what you're using it for.
Of course not, what you're doing is using info you can only find in guides otherwise why even use them? And at that point it's on you to prove that relevant sources had direct involvement and overview of it so it isn't uh, Scott Pelland ig? Yapping like they often do to add a lil flavor.

And? You know the onus is on you to prove that it's not usable, right?

I'm sure they promote their own brand. Why wouldn't they?
Did you know we just had a thread that says simply having approval from the main writer doesn't automatically canonize something?

Then why in sam hill would getting developer go-ahead somehow be a better qualifier of the main writer's word means nothing in that respect?

I looked into that one, it had direct contact with the devs, miyamoto, and more, including extensive commentary, behind the scenes, direct asset access, etc. That guide is evidently fine to use. I have zero issue with guides if they're actually provably legit sources.
Nintendo Power is not unless you can prove the specific issue has merit.

Yep. It's all on there.

Oh, silly me! Nintendo Power was mentioned in canon!

Stategy Guide Evidence Compilation

DK64 Has Flying Books That Mentions The Strategy Guide; Cranky Kong Talks About The Strategy Guides In The DK64 Instruction Booklet; (Source: https://ia600206.us.archive.org/22/items/Nintendo64GameManuals/DonkeyKong64u.pdf) Blunder Bear Explicitly Talks About The Nintendo Power Guide; L...

docs.google.com

 

[HenshinIntervention]

I agree
Best of luck on the CRT

 

[Chariot190]

They had contact with the IP owners, via the fact the thing got published on the first place, Nintendo approved the publishing.

I am not doing this with you.
You know that isn't what I meant, you know that isn't enough. Do not be semantic, do not cause your own thread to derail, clutter, and ultimately fail to go anywhere because you refused to cooperate and prove the burden of proof and now it's 10 pages long and nobody will read it.

Unless the writers for that specific issue of Nintendo Power had access with relevant figureheads, insider info, and was overviewed by someone of note. There is nothing of value; for example, how do we know it isn't misinfo as the writer for the book would have obviously been using the notoriously faulty eng of the game as his basis, and from there, interpretate or add his own flourish to it?

You wouldn't know could you? But that would be the default assumption given the writers listed and how it was handled back then.
Which unfortunately is not even remotely the same as canon info.

Yes. Prove that any statement I presented from the Nintendo Power guide (the bottomless pits) are contradicted by the games.

Huh? That's easy, there's several levels that connect directly to the castle itself yet are accessed via unconventional means. Wing Mario Over the Rainbow is a obvious one.

Also no, we'd be going over every instance and statement in the book to cross examine, not just ones you'd want to use to see how often things aren't correct.

That's super weird, then, why having contact with the developers would mean ANYTHING to canonicity. If the main writers word isn't enough, then why in Sam hill would your qualifiers be?

Ok then don't use it.
Throw that out too ig, idk why you'd want to argue that but whatever I suppose.

Correcto. These guides are more direct, if that's your personal forte.

You literally just refused the standards I was working by, why would it suddenly be ok now that you yourself shot it down?

Oh! I almost forgot. Nintendo Power Guides are mentioned on the games, silly me! (and the manual for DKC 2):

Stategy Guide Evidence Compilation

DK64 Has Flying Books That Mentions The Strategy Guide; Cranky Kong Talks About The Strategy Guides In The DK64 Instruction Booklet; (Source: https://ia600206.us.archive.org/22/items/Nintendo64GameManuals/DonkeyKong64u.pdf) Blunder Bear Explicitly Talks About The Nintendo Power Guide; L...

docs.google.com

Ok I'll explain this once and only once; you need to prove every guide you're using is fine. Not one, not two, all of them.
If you can not do so for a specific guide, it simply isn't used.

Also a lot of those examples are kind of egregious.

The flying books mentioning a "strategy guide" is a 4th wall joke, they don't even specify a specific strategy guide do they? It's RW having a laugh, not canonizing every guide known to man. Like how do we know it's the Nintendo Power? How do we know it's not the Brady games one? Or the shoko one? or the...

The instruction manual is completely fine that isn't a guide? It literally comes packaged with the game and written by them directly?

The bear one is tongue and cheek given RW is a english studio and I'm pretty sure Rare did have involvement with theirs due to that very fact but way to miss the point ig but sure go for it, for that specific game.

That Luigi one is literally just a joke where he goes
"In guides like this, my big bro is always the main character... Damn it... even though I'm the bigger one…"
Then the koopa shows up says "Grr…" and Mario is like "It's good to ask the turtle"
Which is a ******* japanese pun where he swapped two similar looking japanese words with the word turtle because a turtle is literally there (normal phrase is something like "It's good to ask for advice").
The guide in question isn't even a specific one it's just some pink book. This isn't proof of anything, it's a pun.

Honestly the fact that each piece of evidence, is from Rareware ain't exactly the type of evidence you want to be using for a completely different studio and branch.

And the perfect edition one I would SAY that's fine but given you don't like the basic standards I would assume it isn't.

So, unfortunately, until you prove NP in this specific case is usable, refrain from using it.
Additionally, why are your 64 scans english? We've had threads about how the english version of the game veers off from the original translation have we not? You should be using the japanese.

They did by the feature of them even being allowed to. Nintendo allowed it to be published, and allowed it to be called official.

Given you somehow forgot you posted. I am not doing this with you. Don't make me tap the sign.
Nintendo also allowed the shitty pokemon guide that says beedrill evolves into gyrados to be published and official but last I checked that wasn't exactly canon.
We literally have rules now where simple approval to publish, create, or adapt is not enough to prove canonicity. Don't dodge the burden that's strictly on you.

Even fictional material on its own will get things wrong about itself or contradict it. Making an error is not a crumbling force that suddenly removes every single other statement. Anything that doesn't contradict the games outright should be considered as legitimate.

Cop-out argument. If the errors come from someone who isn't a authorative force writing things, and they screw up, and the other things said are only said by them, and nothing else, nowhere else, that's no longer "this is official supplementary info intended for canon utility" and is instead "steve was paid like 20$ to throw together a guide with some flavor text so he yapped here and there".

You're already making this CRT very difficult lad, I would recommend doing the bare minimum here because this isn't even a matter of opinion now, you made this like a week to late.

 

[AlloyAmi]

Agree with 64s feat, though I feel like i should now bring up how mario kart world can provide some good support solidifying the painting world sizes + their actual creation considering we see a shooting star (directly treated as power stars in the series as well in games like galaxy and party, i can probably get scans for this later but i dont currently have them on hand) in CUTSCENE directly create a parallel world within the stained glass which is directly shown be an obvious nod to 64 with how you enter it, I made this imgur outlining more info about the mirrored world and its scope. Said parallel mirror mode world also contains this. Should also be noted that the black jewels japanese statements used in this very states it wants to make a kingdom out of the created world, this is quite similar to 64s wording further showing the that it can be both creation + conquering, and its made very clear in new statements even for 3d all stars that they are treated as entirely new worlds.

I've also think a lot of the anti feat arguments are rather weak and can be easily addressed by higher feats performed from the very same games they are in, with as foxy sonic master said, a lot also being gameplay as well.

I also want to say i completely disagree with varies in mario. theres no justifiable reason for them to get massively weaker, they very clearly are stronger then their past selves and even manuals acknowledge them getting stronger by the games passing. mario picross' tie in manga meant to go with the game in japan also directly shows this. they say they havent fought a bit to justify some tutorials and reintroducing mechanics in sequels of rpgs but this shouldnt justify such a massive downgrade. It's either full upgrade, or not.

i just skimmed it for now but im iffy on the mario party 2 creation stuff.

Antasma was already accepted on another crt i made, its just treated as an outlier onsite, but obviously I agree the scaling is pretty obvious considering real world antasma is literal fodder compared to mario and is on par with base dreambert who cant break nightmares chunks or stand a chance against base bowser.

Agree with culex, its made very clear that he his power was inherited by what makes up all creation itself aka the universe which he also refers to as the "ultimate two", which are space and time.

Agree with black jewels feat, cosmic bodies within also further support it reaching cosmic level sizes, very clearly intended to be an alt reality.

disagree with dream depot being 2-a. its quite literally stated he was doing it 1 by 1, but still a low 2-c feat which is still relevant here.

One last thing that confuses me is why is this high 3-a, when most if not all of this should be low 2-c. dreams are already low 2-c, so antasma and dream depot should be low 2-c. and these worlds obviously have their own time within them, with mario 64 having levels directly dealing with it like tick tock clock, and culex inheriting the ultimate TWO which contextually referring to both time and space as his next lines show.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

One last thing that confuses me is why is this high 3-a, when most if not all of this should be low 2-c. dreams are already low 2-c, so antasma and dream depot should be low 2-c. and these worlds obviously have their own time within them, with mario 64 having levels directly dealing with it like tick tock clock, and culex inheriting the ultimate TWO which contextually referring to both time and space as his next lines show.

The CRT to my knowledge aims for 3-A at the very least or higher. I do think some of these are L2-C though.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

I am not doing this with you.
You know that isn't what I meant, you know that isn't enough. Do not be semantic, do not cause your own thread to derail, clutter, and ultimately fail to go anywhere because you refused to cooperate and prove the burden of proof and now it's 10 pages long and nobody will read it.

Are you trying to sound like a tough guy? Because this is just comedy. When official material releases, the onus is on you to prove it's useless or unusable, I already fulfilled my end on the burden.

Unless the writers for that specific issue of Nintendo Power had access with relevant figureheads, insider info, and was overviewed by someone of note. There is nothing of value; for example, how do we know it isn't misinfo as the writer for the book would have obviously been using the notoriously faulty eng of the game as his basis, and from there, interpretate or add his own flourish to it?

Why would it be misinformation? Why is it misinformation? If it's not proven misinformation, then we must act in good faith and assume it true.

Huh? That's easy, there's several levels that connect directly to the castle itself yet are accessed via unconventional means. Wing Mario Over the Rainbow is a obvious one.

...and how does that contradict the statements I shared with you? That's just confusing.

Also no, we'd be going over every instance and statement in the book to cross examine, not just ones you'd want to use to see how often things aren't correct.

I'm confident in stating that book gets more right than it does wrong.

Ok then don't use it.
Throw that out too ig, idk why you'd want to argue that but whatever I suppose.

What? You just argued to me that the reason the guides WERE'NT canon was the lack of developer input, I then presented developer input, you then claim it's worthless, to which I question what your line is.

What are you on about?

You literally just refused the standards I was working by, why would it suddenly be ok now that you yourself shot it down?

I was willing to compromise, and I presented evidence you yourself would accept. I don't expect people to naturally agree with me, which is why I came up with something to your your standard.

Ok I'll explain this once and only once; you need to prove every guide you're using is fine. Not one, not two, all of them.
If you can not do so for a specific guide, it simply isn't used.

I did.

Also a lot of those examples are kind of egregious.

The flying books mentioning a "strategy guide" is a 4th wall joke, they don't even specify a specific strategy guide do they? It's RW having a laugh, not canonizing every guide known to man. Like how do we know it's the Nintendo Power? How do we know it's not the Brady games one? Or the shoko one? or the...

It can be a joke, and canon. Why are you presenting these as either/ors? I'd naturally use Occam's razor and select the official guides that are mentioned.

The instruction manual is completely fine that isn't a guide? It literally comes packaged with the game and written by them directly?

The instruction manual (packaged with the game) mentions the guide. It's why I put it on there.

The bear one is tongue and cheek given RW is a english studio and I'm pretty sure Rare did have involvement with theirs due to that very fact but way to miss the point ig but sure go for it, for that specific game.

Oke.

That Luigi one is literally just a joke where he goes
"In guides like this, my big bro is always the main character... Damn it... even though I'm the bigger one…"
Then the koopa shows up says "Grr…" and Mario is like "It's good to ask the turtle"
Which is a ******* japanese pun where he swapped two similar looking japanese words with the word turtle because a turtle is literally there (normal phrase is something like "It's good to ask for advice").
The guide in question isn't even a specific one it's just some pink book. This isn't proof of anything, it's a pun.

Oh, yea, I made that Google doc ages ago for more than just Nintendo Power, you can disregard that.

So, unfortunately, until you prove NP in this specific case is usable, refrain from using it. Additionally, why are your 64 scans english? We've had threads about how the english version of the game veers off from the original translation have we not? You should be using the japanese.

Huh? I checked the Japanese scans with @LuckyEmile, and we didn't find anything that would contradict my point. Plus, I did use the Japanese when mentioning the Toad near the entrance to Hazy Maze Cave

Given you somehow forgot you posted. I am not doing this with you. Don't make me tap the sign.
Nintendo also allowed the shitty pokemon guide that says beedrill evolves into gyrados to be published and official but last I checked that wasn't exactly canon.
We literally have rules now where simple approval to publish, create, or adapt is not enough to prove canonicity. Don't dodge the burden that's strictly on you.

Sure, and if there are statements that contradict the games, toss 'em aside. If there's anything that doesn't, why not let em in?

Cop-out argument. If the errors come from someone who isn't a authorative force writing things, and they screw up, and the other things said are only said by them, and nothing else, nowhere else, that's no longer "this is official supplementary info intended for canon utility" and is instead "steve was paid like 20$ to throw together a guide with some flavor text so he yapped here and there".

Sounds like copium to me, to be frank. Nintendo has to both approve the authors of the games and the guides as well. They go through both. Sounds irrelevant to me.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

disagree with dream depot being 2-a. its quite literally stated he was doing it 1 by 1, but still a low 2-c feat which is still relevant here.

You can see it a lot of ways, which is why I kept it open-ended.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

The CRT to my knowledge aims for 3-A at the very least or higher. I do think some of these are L2-C though.

Mmhmm. I wanted to let the thread consider if they count for 3-A, or possibly higher.

 

[AlloyAmi]

You can see it a lot of ways, which is why I kept it open-ended.

I do think he has influence over eventually affecting the entire realm, but still 1 by 1 (which w speed feat but hella outlier lol)

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

I do think he has influence over eventually affecting the entire realm, but still 1 by 1 (which w speed feat but hella outlier lol)

As far as I can remember, there's only one other Immeasurable speed feat that comes from the games.

 

[Chariot190]

Are you trying to sound like a tough guy? Because this is just comedy.

If you can not be civil, I will be taking you to the rule violation thread. I do not have the time or energy to deal with you using ad hominem as a substitute for actual argumentation and evidence.
Either cooperate, or when your CRT inevitably fails because you didn't adhere to wiki standards, refused to prove the burden of proof, and nobody who could help you wants to help you anymore, it'll be simply your own fault.

When official material releases, the onus is on you to prove it's useless or unusable, I already fulfilled my end on the burden.

Canon

Canon is a term used to designate works that are generally accepted as the genuine work that apply to the fictional verse. With few possible exceptions only canon material is featured in the character pages, with non-canon material to be ignored. The generally agreed-upon definition is that the...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Please read this so people don't need to argue with you because you didn't bother to understand our standards first.

Why would it be misinformation? Why is it misinformation? If it's not proven misinformation, then we must act in good faith and assume it true.

Good faith ended the instant an error showed up elsewhere. Now it's subject to scrutiny. Also as below, every single verse on wiki is subject to this, not just Mario, and HELL not even just Nintendo. I've been working extensively on Zelda, and instead of just assuming every guide known to man is canon, I either made sure it's had proper oversight, or, use exclusively canon guides as dictated by the encyclopedia apx.

This isn't us being unfair here, it's just what has to be done, if you don't like it, well you just have to deal with it.

...and how does that contradict the statements I shared with you? That's just confusing.

Because you enter a world within the castle through an unconventional means, and then you fall, except you don't game over, get warped out, etc., no.
You literally fall to the ground and it wasn't endless.
This also touches on the fact not every world is actually its own separate uni, some cases 100% are examples of being warped just elsewhere in the main world, as in this example it is literally just higher up in the sky above the castle.

I'm confident in stating that book gets more right than it does wrong.

It could get 99% of things right, if that 1% is stuff never cited anywhere else, not provably canon, usable, or dubious, it's an issue.

What? You just argued to me that the reason the guides WE'RENT canon was the lack of developer input, I then presented developer input, you then claim it's worthless, to which I question what your line is.

You literally didn't. You simply said Nintendo was the publisher. That is not developer input.

What are you on about?

Consistency at this point.
If you can't adhere to standards and your own argument is "if these standards aren't good enough then neither are yours", that doesn't magically make yours ok to use, it just means we won't be using either.

I was willing to compromise, and I presented evidence you yourself would accept. I don't expect people to naturally agree with me, which is why I came up with something to your your standard.

Compromise? There's nothing to compromise here.
It's either canon and has the backing requirements needed, or it isn't and it isn't used. There is no in-between.

I did.

No, you didn't, nowhere in a single of your posts did you prove:
1. The guides in question were worked on closely with relevant figureheads who worked on the game in question.
2. Any new information is sourced from an authoritative source (whether someone who has real say or from files, documents, scripts, and more used for development or worldbuilding) and isn't made up flavor by someone who doesn't have any real input into the overall canon.
3. A canon branch directly canonizes that information itself.

You did none of that, you simply said Nintendo published it, so it MUST have been overviewed (by who exactly? Swan? She doesn't have actual say either?) and listed off writers who doesn't qualify for any of the above.

It can be a joke, and canon.

Based on what exactly? What makes pink nameless Mario guide canon? Why is a 4koma reliable canon?

Why are you presenting these as either/ors? I'd naturally use Occam's razor and select the official guides that are mentioned.

Because it IS either or, it's the rules.
That's the problem, they aren't mentioned. Outside of DKC2 and 3, not a single actual guide is name dropped.

The instruction manual (packaged with the game) mentions the guide. It's why I put it on there.

I'm aware, that's one of the DKC fringe cases, but unfortunate as it might be, you're not using that guide for anything.

Oh, yea, I made that Google doc ages ago for more than just Nintendo Power, you can disregard that.

Why am I disregarding the evidence you're supposed to be giving me?
Make sure things are actually correct before arguing it then.

Huh? I checked the Japanese scans with @LuckyEmile, and we didn't find anything that would contradict my point. Plus, I did use the Japanese when mentioning the Toad near the entrance to Hazy Maze Cave

I didn't say every statement is wrong, nor that there was no Japanese scans at all. But you need to swap the eng ones you do have for the jap ones.

Sure, and if there are statements that contradict the games, toss 'em aside. If there's anything that doesn't, why not let em in?

That's not how canon works. We call this an argument from ignorance; not being contradicted just means the primary material hasn't addressed it — not that it's true. You could "validate" infinite made-up details simply because the story never bothered to deny them. This is a argument from ignorance lad.
This would ALSO be a prime example of Cherry picking/Texas sharpshooter fallacy: You're just selecting the "hits" or whatever you wanna call them, after the fact and ignoring what "missed".
If a guide is unreliable in any parts, we no longer have a principled way to know which remaining parts are "canon/legit" versus "author filler slop". Which would apply either way regardless, because without direct involvement, who's to say it's a legitimate claim?

Sounds like copium to me, to be frank.

For the like 5 people who keep DM'ing like once a week for help with Mario, you know who you are, kind of sick of this attitude with this fanbase. Don't ask me for anymore.

Nintendo has to both approve the authors of the games and the guides as well. They go through both. Sounds irrelevant to me.

I mean we're not asking for your opinion here, we're asking you to follow standards, prove it's usable, and only then is it fair game.
To elaborate on the above some more.
You're trying to shift the burden of proof and this is a source validity problem.
Canon isn’t anything that hasn't been denied. Canon is what the actual creators explicitly establish (game/script/interviews/dev statements/etc.) or what comes from a source with verified official authority + oversight (dev-written, dev-approved, uses internal documents, etc., such as the shoko ones, they're fair game).

If the guide is not confirmed canon, then the default assumption is:

• it's secondary commentary at best
• it can contain interpretation, padding, and mistakes due to a lack of oversight
• it has no authority to add new facts to the overall canon much the same way an assistant or aid wouldn't regardless of if they helped

Your logic is an argument from ignorance: "not contradicted" doesn't make it true. If we accept any uncontradicted guide claims, we could accept effectively any detail or false information, like who's to say it isn't a retcon at that point instead of a mistake? Maybe Mew really IS under the truck or K.K is in Melee??? And "discard the wrong parts, keep the rest" is cherry picking, it's post-hoc shit selecting what matches wat you think is canon, not evidence that the guide is authoritative or had access to secret info like, for example, the Metal Gear Piggyback guides as a different example of a canon guide. Unless the guide has verified creator oversight or internal-source access, it can't establish canon, only repeat or summarize it, any new info it has must either be repeated elsewhere (making the guide useless to begin with), or simply corroborative to existing information (in which case isn't doing anything by itself either way).

It is on YOU to prove Steve or whoever among the many unconfirmed guides isn't simply adding his own interpretation but rather parroting relevant canon info obtained from a source of merit.

 

[AlloyAmi]

atp just make a separate thread in the future if you want to prove nintendo power is canon considering the amount of debate and scrutiny regarding it due to its westerns origins. its also a more important time then ever to do this considering the new canon standards. otherwise i dont think they provide anything TOO relevant to this thread outside of further support but the contents of this thread are heavily unchanged if you were to exclude them, this is turning more of a "are these books valid sources of canon" thread at this rate.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Meep neep

If you can not be civil, I will be taking you to the rule violation thread. I do not have the time or energy to deal with you using ad hominem as a substitute for actual argumentation and evidence.

I'm not? I make one sentence and you presume I'm substituting it for an actual argument? Darn.

Either cooperate, or when your CRT inevitably fails because you didn't adhere to wiki standards, refused to prove the burden of proof, and nobody who could help you wants to help you anymore, it'll be simply your own fault.

Ok, let's see your standards for, say, Databooks (which are just Guidebooks for mangas and stuff)...
"So for most manga series, that means the original manga is canonical, while the anime is not (since the anime is simply an adaptation of the manga made by others). Databooks are considered secondary canon since scans tend to contradict them. It should be noted that this is often evaluated on a case-by-case basis.".

So, we can then say that the Nintendo Power Guides fit the Secondary (or perhaps Tertiary?) Canon quite nice and cleanly. Not much to say here.

Good faith ended the instant an error showed up elsewhere. Now it's subject to scrutiny. Also as below, every single verse on wiki is subject to this, not just Mario, and HELL not even just Nintendo. I've been working extensively on Zelda, and instead of just assuming every guide known to man is canon, I either made sure it's had proper oversight, or, use exclusively canon guides as dictated by the encyclopedia apx.

Darn, and I should care about how you personally go about things... why?

Because you enter a world within the castle through an unconventional means, and then you fall, except you don't game over, get warped out, etc., no. You literally fall to the ground and it wasn't endless. This also touches on the fact not every world is actually it's own separate uni, some cases 100% are examples of being warped just elsewhere in the main world, as in this example it is literally just higher up in the sky above the castle.

Which one? Are you referring to the Secret Level where you can fall all the way down? I don't know of that being mentioned anywhere as its own separate universe. Also, again, how does this contract the guide I mentioned?

It could get 99% of things right, if that 1% is stuff never cited anywhere else, not provably canon, usable, or dubious, it's an issue.

Why?

You literally didn't. You simply said Nintendo was the publisher. That is not developer input.

It's input by the copyright holders, and then Nintendo Power via Nintendo Today was endorsed by Miyamoto. Sure, it's not input at the time, but it goes to show that it's still reliable.

Consistency at this point. If you can't adhere to standards and your own argument is "if these standards aren't good enough then neither are yours", that doesn't magically make yours ok to use, it just means we won't be using either.

Then come up with a consistent standard or prove why mine is flawed.

Compromise? There's nothing to compromise here.
It's either canon and has the backing requirements needed, or it isn't and it isn't used. There is no in-between.

Compromise as in let it go. But now I realize you don't understand much of what I'm saying.

No, you didn't, nowhere in a single of your posts did you prove:
1. The guides in question were worked on closely with relevant figureheads who worked on the game in question.

It doesn't need to be made closely with the main figureheads, I already showed that the official company officially published, still references to this day, and got promoted by the literal creator of the franchise and producer of the game in question.

2. Any new information is sourced from an authoritative source (whether someone who has real say or from files, documents, scripts, and more used for development or worldbuilding) and isn't made up flavor by someone who doesn't have any real input into the overall canon.

The copyright holders have the highest say on canon, that's how most big fiction is produced. If the officla company doesn't like something, they can strip it from canon, fire the author, or retcon it themselves.

3. A canon branch directly canonizes that information itself.

Apparently the official company insisting on it's usefulness via Nintendo Today and Miyamoto supporting that isn't enough for you?

Based on what exactly? What makes pink nameless Mario guide canon? Why is a 4koma reliable canon?

What makes it not canon or unreliable?

Because it IS either or, it's the rules. That's the problem, they aren't mentioned. Outside of DKC2 and 3, not a single actual guide is name dropped.

Nintendo Power being mentioned in Nintendo games shows, to some extent, Nintendo knows that it is a source of information people will be relying on.

Why am I disregarding the evidence you're supposed to be giving me? Make sure things are actually correct before arguing it then.

Irony.

I didn't say every statement is wrong, nor that there was no Japanese scans at all. But you need to swap the eng ones you do have for the jap ones.

I'll see if I can add em in.

That's not how canon works. We call this an argument from ignorance; not being contradicted just means the primary material hasn't addressed it — not that it's true. You could "validate" infinite made-up details simply because the story never bothered to deny them.

Not an infinite amount, just details mentioned in official source; I don't validate based on outside, non-Nintendo-approved sources. Not being contradicted means that it's perfectly fine if it is true, so why do insist on it being false?

This is a argument from ignorance lad. This would ALSO be a prime example of Cherry picking/Texas sharpshooter fallacy: You're just selecting the "hits" or whatever you wanna call them, after the fact and ignoring what "missed". If a guide is unreliable in any parts, we no longer have a principled way to know which remaining parts are "canon/legit" versus "author filler slop". Which would apply either way regardless, because without direct involvement, who's to say it's a legitimate claim?

You're commiting a composition fallacy by assuming that because one part of x is unreliable than that means the rest of it is unreliable or false.

For the like 5 people who keep DM'ing like once a week for help with Mario, you know who you are, kind of sick of this attitude with this fanbase. Don't ask me for anymore.

Idek what this is about and I ain't gonna ask.

I mean we're not asking for your opinion here, we're asking you to follow standards, prove it's usable, and only then is it fair game. To elaborate on the above some more. You're trying to shift the burden of proof and this is a source validity problem. Canon isn’t anything that hasn't been denied. Canon is what the actual creators explicitly establish (game/script/interviews/dev statements/etc.) or what comes from a source with verified official authority + oversight (dev-written, dev-approved, uses internal documents, etc., such as the shoko ones, they're fair game).

Going to back to your standard, things can be considered non-canon if the copyright holders go in and claim otherwise. Why then, is their word on canon not enough here? They are the most official you could ever get.

If the guide is not confirmed canon, then the default assumption is:

• it's secondary commentary at best
• it can contain interpretation, padding, and mistakes due to a lack of oversight
• it has no authority to add new facts to the overall canon much the same way an assistant or aid wouldn't regardless of if they helped

In my case, I have both Company and Producer approval of both.

Your logic is an argument from ignorance: "not contradicted" doesn't make it true. If we accept any uncontradicted guide claims, we could accept effectively any detail or false information, like who's to say it isn't a retcon at that point instead of a mistake? Maybe Mew really IS under the truck or K.K is in Melee???

Those claims can be proven contradicted or not. You could check under the truck, and if it's false, it's false. Something that is "unconfirmed" is not magically false.

And "discard the wrong parts, keep the rest" is cherry picking, it's post-hoc shit selecting what matches wat you think is canon, not evidence that the guide is authoritative or had access to secret info like, for example, the Metal Gear Piggyback guides as a different example of a canon guide. Unless the guide has verified creator oversight or internal-source access, it can't establish canon, only repeat or summarize it, any new info it has must either be repeated elsewhere (making the guide useless to begin with), or simply corroborative to existing information (in which case isn't doing anything by itself either way).

Again, both Company and Producer approval. This is not what I "think" is canon. It's the most reasonable way to see the series.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

its also a more important time then ever to do this considering the new canon standards. otherwise i dont think they provide anything TOO relevant to this thread outside of further support but the contents of this thread are heavily unchanged if you were to exclude them, this is turning more of a "are these books valid sources of canon" thread at this rate.

Sure. I'd be willing to drop it, the world's in SM64 are infinite either way. I might make a thread about Nintendo Power in general at some point.

 

[Armorchompy]

Lol. Lmao, even.

This is hilarious.

You can keep your remarks to yourself. You mostly make yourself look like an edgelord.

Yes, it does. These are official guides presented by Nintendo, the onus is on you to prove that this material is non-canon.

Again that is simply not enough to show canonicity. Any ad, non-canon manga, show and what have you is official material presented by Nintendo.

And this comes from the guides, as my CRT quite literally speaks on. The Japanese statement noting that the holes in SSL are "bottomless underworlds", and also... why can't it be literal? The clock tower was described by the guide as having "no bottom", it can mean both.

Because it's insanely weak ass "evidence" to say something is a universe. When you're trying to prove something you don't ask "why can't it", you ask "why should it" and there's really no reason this should be taken as valid.

It was gone over years ago!? Wow! What a logical argument! I guess I'll have to bow to "muh consensus"!...

I appreciate it.

The context from Super Mario 64 shows that these Worlds are Universes.

No it simply doesn't. They're all tiny one-biome settings that at most have a sky and no real implications of great size. You have failed to prove that they're any bigger than they're currently considered.

Unless you're claiming Wario's basement is the size of all the areas Wario goes to in this game, I think you need to recheck that claim. And again, the idea that the world the Black Jewel creates being a Universe is supported by the European and not contradicted by Japanese website. This world also happens to have it's own sun as well.

"Not contradicted" doesn't mean shit. You're just saying there's one piece of evidence and that's it. And no I am not at all putting into question that the world gets bigger, but there's an infinite difference between a realm with a star (even taking that at face value) and a whole ass universe.

I've shown that the Black Jewel draws power from Wario's greed and lust, as the Jewel draws power from the desires of others. The only person's desire the Black Jewel can even tap into in Wario's castle would be Wario himself. My logic is so simple lmao. The Black Jewel creates a Universe using the treasure and desires of Wario.

Let's say you've done that. That's not evidence his AP scales to that creation. Nothing says his powers all go up linearly or even that they directly draw from the same source, the proof is just categorically insufficient. To quote:

"A character or the system they are using must have explanations or showings that indicate that the powers which should scale to each other draw from the same source of power and use up a similar amount of power to each other"

..."come forth, o power that RULES OVER ALL CREATION". Did you read my post, or did you just skip everything that was said?

I read all of it, sadly. "Ruling over all creation" isn't a tier 3 or 2 statement. It's hyperbolic boasting that can be interpreted one of a thousand different ways, many completely untierable. For example I would point out that Mario & pals are indeed part of creation and Culex's power very much does not rule them.

It's directly implied. He says he is going to destroy the Dream Worlds, and Misstar herself says this as well. Why would they BOTH be lying here? There's no external object Bowser is shown to be using during or around his claims to destroying the Dream Worlds. This basic Occam's Razor.

No it isn't. If I say "I'm going to kill the US President" you don't assume I'll do it with my bare hands just because I don't specify. Bowser isn't shown ever doing anything pertaining to his plan of remaking dreams so the fact that we're not shown a particular aspect of it isn't an argument. We're just told he'll do it, not how, not when, nothing. The information is insufficient.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm not? I make one sentence and you presume I'm substituting it for an actual argument? Darn.

Exactly, a one sentence mockery isn't a argument.
How about you don't do that at all thinking on it?

Ok, let's see your standards for, say, Databooks (which are just Guidebooks for mangas and stuff)...
"So for most manga series, that means the original manga is canonical, while the anime is not (since the anime is simply an adaptation of the manga made by others). Databooks are considered secondary canon since scans tend to contradict them. It should be noted that this is often evaluated on a case-by-case basis.".

You're skipping a very important part: databooks are treated case-by-case because some are directly produced/overseen by the original creators and some are just editorial products.
The reason they get any weight at all is because their relationship to the source is often verifiable (author credits, editor notes, stated supervision, consistent alignment with the manga, etc.). Such as the Daizenshuus.
A random guidebook being "officially sold" is not automatically the same category, it's exactly those type we wouldn't use. Such as the Schoolastic Pokemon books.

Which is the bucket a slew of your guides fall into.
Hence why I said prove your guides fit the requirements.

So, we can then say that the Nintendo Power Guides fit the Secondary (or perhaps Tertiary?) Canon quite nice and cleanly. Not much to say here.

No, we can't "just say that"?
Secondary canon isn't anything sold under a branding, given YOU, yourself, just made the connection guides being "game databooks", which isn't actually true but for argument's sake...
Secondary canon is "material that has demonstrated creator oversight OR directly reproduces internal primary material".
If the guide is not confirmed to be written/approved with internal script access, it is at best a licensed interpretation. But that has zero bearing on canonicity and integrity and thus usability.

Darn, and I should care about how you personally go about things... why?

For the same reason why the anime part of the wiki isn't saying that exact phrase anymore.
This isn't personal. It's literally basic sourcing?
authority =/= publication.
A completely random Shueisha pamphlet doesn't inherently mean it's canon, hell I would LOVE for that type of standard to be usable, I could legit upgrade someone like GER to some absurd High 3-A right now off a TCG card.
But no, publisher/licensing isn't overview, involvement, or canon confirmation.
If a source can't be shown to have canon authority, it cannot be used to create canon.

Which one? Are you referring to the Secret Level where you can fall all the way down? I don't know of that being mentioned anywhere as its own separate universe. Also, again, how does this contract the guide I mentioned?

I quite literally name dropped it exactly, if you are unsure, look it up. You have the means at that point.
Regardless, that question proves my point.
You keep treating "not contradicted" as a positive argument, yet "not contradicted" is meaningless when the primary work never addressed it.
Canon doesn't work on "it hasn't been denied yet, so it might be true hell if we know", you quite literally just proved my point for me.

Though it doesn't even matter, the vast majority of the "worlds" aren't directly specified either, like Hazy Maze Cave or Tick Tock Clock, what's up with that one?
But you're assuming they're alt worlds correct because of unconventional travel methods to them coupled with a vague unspecified amount yes?

Why would the magic warp just SOMETIMES not actually take you to a alt world? That brings into question a vast handful of worlds that aren't directly confirmed as alternate dimensions (so basically all of them) as there is existing, confirmed, precedence that these warps do in fact simply relocate Mario to existing locations in the same plane at times within that very game.

This also contradicts various bottomless abyss facets because, well, it literally had a bottom. It's why we know it's like that.
IN FACT if mere licensing effected canonicity, I'm pretty sure Battlefield and Rainbow Ride are just alt locations in the Mario world per games like Melee and more, but obviously we wouldn't use that as canon.

Why?

Why? Because that 1% is exactly the part that matters in a canon argument?
If a guide is repeating shit already in the game/manual/script, then yes, it can be "99% right" by just paraphrasing canon or regurgitating the obvious already known info.

But the moment it introduces new details that:
1. aren't in the primary material,
2. aren't confirmed by dev statements,
3. and can't be traced to internal docs or supervision,

Then those "extra" claims have zero authority and can be pure filler, yap, or anything inbetween.

And once a source is proven willing/able to add uncited filler, you cannot distinguish "the remaining new claims" from "more filler/yap" without outside verification like devs, author, direct involvement, etc.
It’s an issue because the 99% "right" part doesn't prove shit about authority (it's just parroting), while your 1% new part is the only part being used to establish something, and that 1% is exactly where non-canon guides invent shit.

It's input by the copyright holders, and then Nintendo Power via Nintendo Today was endorsed by Miyamoto. Sure, it's not input at the time, but it goes to show that it's still reliable.

This is your core mistake lad. You keep conflating brand endorsement with actual canon validation.
A creator endorsing a magazine/brand means "this publication is neat/makes me money", not "every lore claim inside is canon".
Reliability is not inherited just because the logo is on it, outright even, we JUST had a thread we're various whole near 1:1 adaptions of media cut thrown out even though the actual author straight up praised them, because any new tidbits weren't explicitly confirmed canon to the source material.
Yet here you are doing the same thing but magnitudes worse.

Also: "input by copyright holders" is vague. Input how? Editing? Fact-checking? Approving scripts? Giving the info itslf? Or just approving printing and licensing? Those are wildly different. You're acting like Miyamoto literally reviewed every Nintendo Power and greenlit them. I can assure you he did not.

Then come up with a consistent standard or prove why mine is flawed.

Your standard is flawed because it's an argument from ignorance:
"Not contradicted" is not a method dude. It's a loophole that lets any paid writer invent canon filler and have it count until disproven?
That is backwards. The burden is on the claim to prove authority, not on the canon to disprove every stray detail forever.
Also, I already did. My standard is literally the 3 points I listed above, and it's consistent across every franchise:

1. If it’s being used to establish new canon facts, it needs demonstrated oversight from relevant game figureheads / scenario staff, not just a publisher.
2. Any "new info" has to be traceable to authoritative sources (dev scripts, internal docs, direct creator statements), otherwise we have no way to verify it's canonicity.
3. Or the primary canon itself has to later adopt/canonize it.

You haven't did any of those and have instead opted to argue your burden onto me for who knows what reason.
All you’ve shown is "Nintendo published it" and "Nintendo still acknowledges that shit existed at one point in time". That only proves licensing and distribution.

Your standard is flawed precisely because it collapses into just officially released = canon unless contradicted, which is just argument from ignorance + post-hoc cherry-picking as stated 3 times.
It lets unknown filler regardless of who it's coming from become canon by default, with no way to separate actual internal lore from editorial yapping.

If you want it treated as canon, you need to prove authority for the claim, not just that Nintendo allowed the guide to be printed.

Compromise as in let it go. But now I realize you don't understand much of what I'm saying.

I understand what you're saying perfectly: you're trying to treat "uncontradicted licensed text" as usable canon by default.
I'm saying that method collapses under its own weight because it validates text from even the most ignorant sources by default with zero way to parse it, zero way to prove what's legitimate, what's made up, what's interpretation, etc.

Your standard is not only not good enough, but quite literally not allowed.

It doesn't need to be made closely with the main figureheads,

Yes, it does, if you're using it to establish lore facts that are not stated in the primary work.
Commentary is not canon and that's all this is if you can't prove your claims.

Mario isn't special either. We have rules; this doesn't fly for manga, movies, anime, every other game, etc.
In no world would we use the yapping about a newspaper article about a manga that was given the ok by the publisher to be published as legitimate canon info, yet under your rules that's exactly what it would be.

I already showed that the official company officially published, still references to this day, and got promoted by the literal creator of the franchise and producer of the game in question.

Again: you're equivocating between:
1. "official product exists"
and
2. "this text has authority to define canon"
Those are not the same thing.

The copyright holders have the highest say on canon, that's how most big fiction is produced. If the officla company doesn't like something, they can strip it from canon, fire the author, or retcon it themselves.

Man you gonna be shocked when you find out how Metal Gear's canon is treated...
But regardless, in the most extreme scenario possible, they only have the power to define canon.
That does not mean they actively validated every sentence in every licensed publication.
You're confusing "they CAN retcon" with "therefore everything licensed is already canon." That's not how editorial reality works.

Apparently the official company insisting on it's usefulness via Nintendo Today and Miyamoto supporting that isn't enough for you?

Correct. Useful is not canon.
Guides can be useful for gameplay tips, maps, basic summaries, etc.
That does not grant them authority to add new worldbuilding facts, lore, etc.

What makes it not canon or unreliable?

Because that's not how canon works, and that 4koma does not do what you're claiming it does.

1. A 4koma gag strip is not automatically "canon lore". It's typically comedy/meta material. Even when officially licensed, it's not written to establish continuity facts unless it's explicitly treated as such by the creators.

2. Luigi joking "I'm never the main character in these" is a meta joke about marketing and side content. It's not an in-universe statement that "guidebooks are canon", and it definitely isn't a declaration that "all guidebooks are canon now".

3. Even if you force the most generous reading known to man and say "guides exist as a concept", that still doesn't canonize any specific guide's contents. At most it acknowledges the real-world existence of guides because yuh huh they DO exist.

4. Your argument is basically: "A joke referenced the concept of guides, therefore a random guide's extra lore is canon despite the guide in question not even EXISTING at the time of the joke".
That's a non sequitur. The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise dude.

So the burden is still on you to show the guide is canon-authoritative (dev oversight / internal sources), or show the primary canon adopts the guide claim later.

Nintendo Power being mentioned in Nintendo games shows, to some extent, Nintendo knows that it is a source of information people will be relying on.

This is a massive reach, for multiple reasons:
1. A fourth-wall joke is not a canon endorsement.
Cranky Kong making a sarcastic comment about people needing a guide is a meta gag. It's not Nintendo saying "Nintendo Power is a lore authority" and it's definitely not saying "all guide claims are canon".

2. You're conflating "acknowledged to exist" with "content is canon-accurate".
Even if a game references the concept of strategy guides, that only proves guides exist in the real world (which everyone already knows?). It doesn't validate a specific guide's extra lore details as true.

3. You're also mixing franchises and dev contexts like they transfer automatically.
DKC2 is not Mario 64. A Rare-developed DKC joke (and yes, with more Western awareness of Nintendo Power) doesn't become a general rule for totally different guides and games, different teams, different eras, and different productions.

4. Worst case, it's an exception, not a general principle.
Even if you begged for "DKC2 referencing Nintendo Power is canon in DKC2", that's still one specific example inside one specific game. That shit doesn't effect anything else, you don't get to use one reference as a universal slap on the back of authority for the other 300 guides.

5. And this is the core issue: you're trying to generalize without proving oversight.
The exact thing you need to prove is that each guide has actual authority (dev supervision, internal source access, or later canon adoption, yadda yadda). A single joke reference doesn't establish if a guide to Pokemon Snap is canon for example.

At best it means "guides exist and people buy them", which like, yep that do be true, that was never in dispute.

Irony.

No. That's not irony, it's you dodging. You presented those examples as evidence for your claim that "games canonize Nintendo Power" or that "Nintendo Power is a canon authority people rely on", and whatnot.
I didn't bring them up, you did.

Then when I pointed out problems...your response was "disregard that, it's old", basically.

That's not me being inconsistent. That's you abandoning your own evidence once it stopped helping you.

If anything is ironic here, it's that you asked for a consistent standard, then immediately tried to handwave your own citations when they didn't support your conclusion? All the same, do not backpedal.

I'll see if I can add em in.

There is no "see", you have to or they need to be removed. That or prove the eng is 1:1 with the raws.

Not an infinite amount, just details mentioned in official source; I don't validate based on outside, non-Nintendo-approved sources.

This is the whole problem, again: you're treating "Nintendo-approved to publish" as the same thing as "Nintendo-approved to define canon". Those are not equivalent.

A licensed guide may as well be a third-party product unless you can show actual canon oversight or internal sourcing. All you're doing is arguing legal sale status basically, which only proves it passed legal/brand checks, not that its new lore claims are authoritative.

Not being contradicted means that it's perfectly fine if it is true, so why do insist on it being false?

"Fine if it is true" is not a canon standard.

Lots of statements are "fine if true" because they're harmless, vague, or never addressed.
That doesn't make them canon, it just makes them untested or unaddressed. You're quite literally turning "possible" into "usable as fact" without proof of authority.

Just, hypothetical sake, if a random Mario movie pamphlet you found in a cereal box said Mario was actually a 58D rattle snake who only LOOKED like a plumber and all of Mario was a dream it was having, would you seriously treat that as canon because it's licensed despite zero input from anyone of note, all while technically not being contradicted because if everything is a dream it doesn't even matter if they say he's not that at any point because it'd be a dream?

You're commiting a composition fallacy by assuming that because one part of x is unreliable than that means the rest of it is unreliable or false.

No, that's not a composition fallacy, you're misusing the term. Do us both a favor and fact check the terminology before trying to invoke such claims please. All the same...

I'm not saying "one part is wrong, therefore every sentence is false".
I'm saying: if a source has demonstrated it can contain mistakes or author yap, then you cannot treat its remaining uncorroborated new claims as canon without independent verification or evidence.

That's basic source criticism, not composition.

A composition fallacy would be me claiming:
"this guide has one incorrect detail, therefore the entire guide is useless for everything".
I did not claim that.

What I claimed is the only thing that matters for canon debates or indexing based on the actual evidence you've bothered to give:
If the guide is being used to establish new lore, and it has any proven unreliability / editorial invention / dubious sources, then those new lore claims have no principled way to be separated from more interpretations or fabrications.

And you're literally proving my point with your method: you keep whatever aligns with your idea of canon and discard what doesn't. That's like by definition cherry picking / Texas sharpshooter.

So no: it's not "composition", to be more precise it'd be "you don't get to use an unverified secondary product as canon authority for new claims when you can't demonstrate oversight or internal sourcing".

Idek what this is about and I ain't gonna ask.

It means stop asking me about the like 3 tier 5 feats and 12 LS feats.

Going to back to your standard, things can be considered non-canon if the copyright holders go in and claim otherwise. Why then, is their word on canon not enough here? They are the most official you could ever get.

Because you're not actually presenting their word on canon. You're presenting "they allowed this product to exist ig".

Those are completely different things.
Yes, copyright holders have the power to define canon (except not even really? A lot of the time the original creator has equal, if not more power unless it's a cesspit like DC or Marvel).
But that doesn't mean every licensed book, magazine, comic, or guide automatically becomes canon just because it exists under their brand. Licensing is a legal/business approval, not a continuity check.

If Nintendo explicitly said: "This guide's lore statements are canon" or "this guide was supervised by the scenario team + reflects internal documentation", then sure, that's their word on canon, go wild with it ig.

But you haven't shown that. You're trying to treat "Nintendo didn't forbid it and sent it to hell" as if mere approval means it's adopted into canon, which is still an argument from ignorance either, which is ironic given we just made that a standard.

Show direct creator oversight for that guide's new claims, OR show the primary canon adopts those claims later.

In my case, I have both Company and Producer approval of both.

No, you don't. You have company approval that the product exists, and at best you have a creator endorsing the publication/brand in a general sense which as wiki standards very much dictate, means absolutely nothing anymore.

That's not the same thing as:
1. Producer supervision of the specific guide's content,
2. Scenario team oversight, or
3. internal script/doc access for the specific new claims you're using it for.

Your ENTIRE evidence is just "Nintendo published it" + "a producer once supported Nintendo Power as a publication", like man you're still missing the only thing that matters here:
Where is the explicit confirmation that THIS guide's lore claims are canon-competent?

As WITHOUT that, approval legit only means it was allowed to be sold.

Those claims can be proven contradicted or not. You could check under the truck, and if it's false, it's false. Something that is "unconfirmed" is not magically false.

You're still missing the point completely. I am not saying unconfirmed equals false.
I'm saying unconfirmed from a non-authoritative guide = not usable as canon evidence.

Checking under the truck is exactly why your standard fails:
If the primary material never gives you a way to check, then your method lets invented slop sit there as "maybe canon" forever (don't forget, you're not actually supposed to be capable of checking under the truck, and in later adaptions you can't without hacking).
And if later canon contradicts it, you just retroactively toss it out and pretend it never mattered.

That's literally cherry picking after the fact: "keep it until it's disproven".
That isn't what canon is built upon, canon is what's actually provable or sourced from those who have actual say not I literally already forget their names. Canon isn't built on "disprove every stray claim" either, you're shifting the burden because you can't actually prove your claim.

So unfortunate as it may be, the correct breakdown is:
1. If a guide repeats the game: it's fine as a summary, obviously it's going to be right.
2. If a guide adds new claims: it needs proof of oversight/internal sourcing.
3. "Not contradicted" doesn't give it that proof, it just means it's untestable.
3.5. In the case it IS testable, and it aligns with the game, you don't NEED the guide to begin, it isn't new claims, and it ends up becoming point 1 again.

Again: I'm not calling it false. I'm calling it unsupported, non-authoritative filler unless corroborated or you prove the source of the claim or guide in question is applicable per wiki standards.

Again, both Company and Producer approval. This is not what I "think" is canon. It's the most reasonable way to see the series.

Nuh uh. You're repeating the same assertion without proving the part that matters.

"Company approval" = permission to publish.
"Producer approval" = at best, general endorsement of the publication/brand.
Neither of those mean this specific guide's new yap claims were supervised by the scenario staff / written from internal docs / intended to define canon / whatever idc.

You're trying to treat branding as authorship. That's not how continuity authority works.

You're also dodging the red flag of your very own standard.
Your method is still ultimately "keep it until contradicted". That is post-hoc selection. It's literally how you do the very thing we as a wiki just tossed out.
If it's convenient and not denied, you keep it.
If it gets contradicted later, you discard it.
That doesn't make the guide canon-authoritative. It makes your standard unfalsifiable and self-serving.

And no, it's not "the most reasonable way" to treat the series, because it breaks the burden of proof.
Canon is established by primary material and sources with verification of some sort.
Your standard turns any licensed slop into canon by default unless the games go out of their way to refute it.

That is backwards, against the rules, standards, and honestly not a good sign for the future if I've had to spend this many posts arguing what is legit just our rules.

Technically speaking, the most fair way would be to use STRICTLY what is in the game and the game alone, DoA and more do be a thing among other things, the fact we accept supplementary if proven is generous as it is.

TLDR:
A licensed/officially published guide can be useful for tips and summaries, but it does not get to establish new canon facts unless you prove one of these:

1. Direct creator/scenario oversight for that guide's content (not vague "Nintendo didn't banish it to the 9th circle of hell"),
2. Verified use of internal scripts/docs for the specific claim,
3. The primary canon later adopts the claim (think like Bardock becoming canon in Z manga despite being anime only, or Ganondorf's last name being Dragmire being adopted like 30 years later in a guide).

Legit last chance to cooperate, I was busy dealing with stuff and don't have time to argue actual standards with you. Prove it's legit, or remove them from the justifications. If you wish to argue still, I can grab multiple mods to repeat the same rules back to you if you don't feel like taking my word (or the actual rule page's word...) for it.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

You can keep your remarks to yourself. You mostly make yourself look like an edgelord.

Muy interesting.

Again that is simply not enough to show canonicity. Any ad, non-canon manga, show and what have you is official material presented by Nintendo.

I think there's a distinction between advertisements meant to promote the game or side stories that are adjacent to the game, and an actual guide on the game itself that explains elements of the actual game.

Because it's insanely weak ass "evidence" to say something is a universe. When you're trying to prove something you don't ask "why can't it", you ask "why should it" and there's really no reason this should be taken as valid.

It should be, as there are many statements as such claiming the worlds are endless/infinite. That's on you to show why it's flawed, and all you've done is say "but maybe it's wrong".

I appreciate it.

Lol.

No it simply doesn't. They're all tiny one-biome settings that at most have a sky and no real implications of great size. You have failed to prove that they're any bigger than they're currently considered.

I like how your argument to me showing that there is a literal sun in the day, and Wiggler saying in-game that there are stars in these worlds is a single 'nah'.

"Not contradicted" doesn't mean shit. You're just saying there's one piece of evidence and that's it.

It means "it can be true without issue".

And no I am not at all putting into question that the world gets bigger, but there's an infinite difference between a realm with a star (even taking that at face value) and a whole ass universe.

Sure, which is why I used other evidence as well.

Let's say you've done that. That's not evidence his AP scales to that creation. Nothing says his powers all go up linearly or even that they directly draw from the same source, the proof is just categorically insufficient. To quote: "A character or the system they are using must have explanations or showings that indicate that the powers which should scale to each other draw from the same source of power and use up a similar amount of power to each other"

I did, thanks for seeing reality! Also, wow... what is this? I showed he draws power from Wario's greed and treasure, what are you on about?

"Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass or affecting an infinite 3-D space".

I read all of it, sadly. "Ruling over all creation" isn't a tier 3 or 2 statement. It's hyperbolic boasting that can be interpreted one of a thousand different ways, many completely untierable. For example I would point out that Mario & pals are indeed part of creation and Culex's power very much does not rule them.

There is no reason to suggest Culex is actually lying here, as other statements show he's the "master of time and space", and "is the inheritor of the ultimate of two".

Oh, that? I'm arguing Mario & Co. scale to him, it's why it didn't work on them. Even then, Culex is looking for a good fight, and as seen in the fight, he can manipulate the world around them, even the Crystals represent the elements of the world.

No it isn't. If I say "I'm going to kill the US President" you don't assume I'll do it with my bare hands just because I don't specify. Bowser isn't shown ever doing anything pertaining to his plan of remaking dreams so the fact that we're not shown a particular aspect of it isn't an argument. We're just told he'll do it, not how, not when, nothing. The information is insufficient.

Bowser is is a sorcerer, and makes the claim that HE is the destroying the worlds, and Misstar herself says he's destroying the worlds. As I quite literally said, it's a basic Occam's razor. Also, Bowser is always saying he's going to the destroy the Dream while in it, while quite literally having nothing. We never see it happen because Mario always jumps in last-second before Bowser can do anything. And guess what Bowser has on his person?... Nothing.

 

[Dust_Collector]

There is no reason to suggest Culex is actually lying here, as other statements show he's the "master of time and space", and "is the inheritor of the ultimate of two".

Oh, that? I'm arguing Mario & Co. scale to him, it's why it didn't work on them. Even then, Culex is looking for a good fight, and as seen in the fight, he can manipulate the world around them, even the Crystals represent the elements of the world.

For the "Ruling over all creation" part what does that have to do with AP? At best he's like the supreme lord of the universe he comes from or whatever, it means nothing in the grand scheme of things. Master of time and space means nothing since he doesn't really do anything involving time and space, like at best he gets time and spatial manipulation for this statement, gonna need some feats or more specific statements to back up this being AP related, inheritor of the ultimate of two is just another flashy comment about him being 2 dimensional.

Manipulating the world around them doesn't mean much unless there's anything showing or saying the extent of the world he's manipulating, he could be just warping everything in just a 100 meters radius or something for all we know just going off the boss fight. Crystal representing the elements of the world again means nothing, just representing something doesn't make you equal to it without further evidence.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Like seriously, universal Culex in big 2026 what are we even doing

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I generally agree with Armorchompy since this is just a rehash of debunked feats.

Also, Chariot is 100% correct in regards to the discussion on the wiki's Canon standards. Nintendo Power ought not to be used.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

For the "Ruling over all creation" part what does that have to do with AP? At best he's like the supreme lord of the universe he comes from or whatever, it means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

He calls forth this power during the right. He says "come forth, O power that rules over all creation".

Master of time and space means nothing since he doesn't really do anything involving time and space, like at best he gets time and spatial manipulation for this statement, gonna need some feats or more specific statements to back up this being AP related,

This was just to clarify that it's not unrealistic for him to be telling the truth.

inheritor of the ultimate of two is just another flashy comment about him being 2 dimensional.

What? "Across time, from this world’s beginning to its end, I am the inheritor of the ultimate of Two". This is referring to the former.

 

[That_moron2]

I'm going to kill the US President

You’re gonna what?

 

[JPTheGamer]

You can keep your remarks to yourself. You mostly make yourself look like an edgelord.

I generally agree with Armorchompy since this is just a rehash of debunked feats.

I agree with Chomps on this one, @SuperMarioGamers3; could you please tone down the remarks a bit? Before either of you mods decides to close this thread, I believe there's something we can learn from it.

Lemme be the first Mario Bros supporter to give my two cents from an unbiased and/or neutral standpoint...

SUPER MARIO 64: ​

Why yes, this will be my first one, and while I’m fully aware of the various arguments about this game that exist across this Wiki (as I read some of it myself), I find it necessary to summarize and expand upon the arguments.

The plot of Super Mario 64 is quite simple; Bower directly invades Peach’s castle and steals 70 of the 120 stars that serve as the protectors of Peach’s castle. He uses these to create his own worlds within the paintings and walls, all served to cause an upheaval to the world of Mario, with some theories suggesting what his plans were for this. But, some say that these worlds aren’t their own universes. Let’s dismantle that, shall we?





Within each of these many worlds (as they are said to be), they, at the very least, contain mass bodies of stars within the skies.

But, these can get even larger, as both Shifting Sand Land, Tick Tock Clock, AND Hazy Maze Cave are both stated to be endless or infinite in size and scope.



(Translation: "If you sink with your head, you won't be able to breathe. The black places are very dangerous!! They are bottomless underworlds!" ← Note that they are multiple these “underworlds”.)

Source: Nintendo Power (which is canonically mentioned material, no less. Adding further, it’s been recently mentioned and talked about in the Nintendo Today, something even Miyamoto himself decided to promote himself!).

While some may decry this as an "exaggeration", I find it incredibly odd that there are TWO Worlds within the exact same game to BOTH be called “endless” and “bottomless”, with some translations of the twice above Japanese text even possibly calling them “infinite” underworlds. But, this is very much consistent and non-contradictory with what we can actually observe within the games themselves, as I showed how there are an abundance of the many stars within the skies of these many worlds.

So, as I’ve shown, each of the worlds in Super Mario 64 are not only different from each other, there is enough evidence to suggest that these worlds are infinite in size, making it clear that the 70 Power Stars are collectively able to make 15 High 3-A sized worlds.

“But Ultra, the Japanese Translations are all flawed! Even the Toad by the door of Peach’s castle only says “カイブツのくに” (monster kingdom)!” - (Lucky Emilie Notes: Kuni is more like "country", I think, since, say, Mushroom Kingdom is the 'kinoko oukoku', not 'kinoko kuni', but I guess “kingdom” is not bad for just how summing up what others say).

Well, my good sir, that is an odd argument if I’ve ever seen one. While yes, this IS what Toad happens to say in the Japanese version, it still wouldn’t counter that other evidence within Super Mario 64’s Japanese version. Take, for example, the Toad by Hazy Maze Cave:

https://****************/file/d/1AGLyzjOzwNU6EnRee665xcTyW_jzHUvh/view?usp=sharing

“えのほかにかべのなかにもモンスターの　せかいがあります。あっ！これもっていって　ください。かくして　もってました”.

As you can see above, this Toad DOES use “World” here: “せかい”. Notably, this is also the case in the official Super Mario 64 Japanese Manual:

https://****************/file/d/1hJI73NZwqNfFlCTOfYNbQ__0KgnSMCXq/view?usp=sharing

Translation: “There, an entirely different world was spread out before him!” ← Some other translations have slightly different wording, but the concept is that Bob-Omb battlefield is a separate world from Mario’s. (Lucky Emilie Notes: Considering the lobby Toad was noted to have said 'kaibutsu no kuni', might as well point out HMC Toad said 'monsutaa no sekai' to reflect the idea it's a 'monster world')

It’s also referred to as a “world inside the painting” right here:

https://****************/file/d/1MO8KnTvOceGxuJNFQflfgx623TrzKHQV/view?usp=sharing

Counter Argument: “Okay, sure, but how would you even know they’re separate worlds? The Japanese language doesn’t have plurals, remember?”

Sharp point. So, how do we know that they ARE separate? Well, check the context from the manual:

“響われたパワースターは、絵の世界のさまざまな場所に隠されています。知恵と力をフルに使って取り戻し、キノコ城に平和をよみがえらせてください。”

“The scattered Power Stars are hidden in various places in the painting worlds. Using your wisdom and strength to the fullest, recover them, and please restore peace to Mushroom Castle.”

This is also reflected in the Japanese text when you first enter Bob-Omb Battlefield;

https://****************/file/d/1abTqHIzSRB4v7IVi_ktpErHeeOoeCvbG/view?usp=sharing

"おおっと、ここはキケンなせんじょうの　どまんなか。 『え』のなかのせかいにはクッパが　めすんだパワースターがある。"

(Translation: “Whoa! This is right in the middle of a dangerous battlefield. Inside the world within this painting, there is a Power Star that Bowser has hidden.”)

We can be confident by this (which does say “world inside the painting; 「え」のなかのせかい”) that these are distinct and separate worlds. Anyhow, I think this covers most of the arguments that are against Super Mario 64, and should solidify the, at the bare minimum, 3-A rating thereof.

For starters, I do believe the OP has made some very compelling arguments for the painting worlds in Peach's castle. Since he's given the fact that they are shown to have their own celestial bodies, history, and statements regarding terms like "endless" and "infinite", I believe things like this emphasize that these painting worlds should, at the very least, be larger than stellar, with the potential of being Multi-Galactic to possibly Universal in size.

MARIO PARTY 2:​

Now, this is some very interesting territory that we’re entering here, as LuckyEmile so interestingly pointed out to me. She points out that the Mario cast (Mario, Luigi, Peach, Yoshi, Wario and Donkey Kong) create their own world;

https://****************/file/d/1NbBP5FGxz8jahKCqGX1LpUWtbpxe_UdY/view?usp=sharing

(Bonus Note: Even non-scalers interpret it like that).

Now, of course, there are already a massive heap of objections everyone will naturally have to this; but let’s have us a solid look at the context of the situation:

https://****************/file/d/1pbk1GWK3s9TP9WqJCVbITFO7c-WZbpAN/view?usp=sharing

In this, Mario and crew create a world built upon their own dreams (which would entail it was made OF their dreams), which are elaborated on in future games as their own separate universes. But let’s see an example of one of these many worlds they created; such as Space Land!

Space Land is referred to as “Deep Space” by the Koopa Troopa, and the Japanese Version goes even FURTHER to claim that they brought peace to the Universe.

https://****************/file/d/16DIgTF3qRRuKQevU2fdi5LnFcYmuIj3o/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/19nWVpnIwWw8OZQdt20mkho7fjmGI5Fqk/view?usp=sharing

“うちゅうのへいわ！”
(Translation: “Peace in the universe!”)

This is also elaborated upon the description of Space Land in the Japanese Version:

https://****************/file/d/1QsqmwCB351ptk8eVRy-eNyCmFrydFDHr/view?usp=sharing

“「スペースランド」　むずかしさ　☆☆ うちゅうパトロールになって ぎんがのへいわを　まもりましょう。”

https://****************/file/d/1K97EJ-Np2VpEpLTnGgQ6kchEk0DDbMTz/view?usp=sharing

(Translation: “‘Space Land’ — Difficulty: ☆☆ Become a space patrol and protect peace in the galaxy.”)


“うちゅうのへいわをまもって スペースランドのスーパースターを めざしましょう!”

(Translation: "Protect the peace of the universe and aim to become to superstar of Space Land!”)

https://****************/file/d/1gjtLbROhj3pQI6K5msSLnN3oUDe3LadH/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/1uxXnPw8pg5NGvrdrQ8FMGqK3YQS5972N/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/16DIgTF3qRRuKQevU2fdi5LnFcYmuIj3o/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/1K97EJ-Np2VpEpLTnGgQ6kchEk0DDbMTz/view?usp=sharing

(LuckyEmily Notes: The Koopa is pretty much saying that there appears to be signs of conflict in this peaceful universe once again, and so the people of the universe either need a Superstar or are looking for one, and he'd like them to act as the Superstar. The Snifit says he'll chase people to the end of the universe (宇宙の果て) >:3).

https://****************/file/d/1sShpwQ-aPBjpT_AuEB2pvlybdMYTFikF/view?usp=sharing

“宇宙の不思議”.

(Translation + LuckyEmilie Notes: “It says 宇宙の不思議... mysteries of the universe. This page is specifically about "mysterious stuff from Space Land's board" in this context, so it just solidifies that Space Land is a universe.)

ALL of this evidence combined provides a solid contextual argument as to why Super Mario 64 wasn’t the ONLY 3-A or higher Mario game in the 64 era!

Mario & Luigi: Dream Team:​

Well, well, well… this is an interesting one. While most of the scaling has already been done in CRTs again and again, this is just going to be a simple one, as I (which was mentioned in another CRT) can prove that Base Mario alone can scale to Dreamy Antasma… check this out:




This should also make the idea that Bowser can take on a base Anstasma more realistic, who’s current state of being was caused in part by the fact he consumed nightmares.

https://youtu.be/WSCiqPUT7Kk?si=H7kME_rV75xkyxoA&t=15
https://youtu.be/YTkZXmkQfds?t=1324

In both of these, Mario can, at the very least, keep up with this powerful incarnation of Antasma for a good period of time, which would make his battle with Dreamy Bowser much more believable as a whole.

MARIO PARTY 5​

Well, well, well… I talked about this a lot during my original 2-A CRT, but my CRT still had some weight, as I was able to prove that the Star Spirits created the Dream Depot itself, which should absolutely contains tons of Dreams (i.e Universes);
https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ngc/gp5j/cnt_1/tip04.html

Bowser should scale at or above the Star Spirits, since they needed the help of Mario and Crew to take him down, to which Bowser was going to destroy the dreams and replace them with his own, as stated by Misstar & Bowser;
https://youtu.be/tjT0yeA050E?t=241
https://youtu.be/tjT0yeA050E

He also states this again in game, SO MANY DARN TIMES.

https://****************/file/d/1A3QhJTfdQ_f8hF5L_Z2HkwNQ1da8FjOc/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/1Og_19HPJOt223Qyn9VoHOt_3MnoE0Yl1/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/1bCyQNE3d8TjZrFuKpIiWjhrMhkLHFWI0/view?usp=sharing

(Translation: "Bwahaha! I’ll destroy this Sweet Dream and turn it into my own, you heeear!!") <-- Repeat that, but change the description of the dream.

(LuckyEmilie Notes: Looking to the Mario Party 5 section of the Japanese Nintendo website for anything further, I found a summary of the story. It notes that Bowser "started to do evil things" and taunts "If you want to save the world of dreams, you'll have to fight us!!", which basically confirms the idea that he's doing it to lure in powerful challengers to grant the wish he's had for many years of fighting someone strong. As for Misstar's claim about people being able to dream again after Bowser's defeat, in Japanese she says "Thanks to you, everyone's dreams were protected. With this, everyone throughout the world can dream with peace of mind, my dear. ... ... Today, as it has been before, I'm sure everyone's wonderful dreams will come and gather in Dream Depot." ( なたのおかげで、 みんなの夢は守られました/護られました。 これで、 世界中の誰もがあんし んして夢見ることができるわ。 ...きょうもユメミールには、すてきな夢が集まって来るで). Whilst she says that people can now dream "with a clear mind" or "without worry", implying that it's not that people couldn't dream but would just not have a very nice experience when dreaming, she goes on to say about how Dream Depot will continue to be a place where dreams can come together once again, which seems to suggest they wouldn't have been able to otherwise, so it does seem pretty consistent that Bowser was a threat to Dream Depot's entirety and stopped dreams from gathering there).

As much as I believe the cast of Super Mario deserves to reach universal threats in terms of statistics, I disagree that we should just give them such statistics solely based on how they're using dreams to create worlds; it's like saying everyone in the Super Mario (NPC or not) that dreams should automatically be given Universe level AP via Dream Manipulation. To me, that sounds like a solution that would absolutely work for the cast, but I can see why you'd be vehemently against that for reasons such as it being a huge power gap or having to treat NPCs the same way to balance it out. I know you think more sufficient evidence of the cast fighting universal threats like Antasma would probably also be needed for them to qualify for 3-A AP or higher, too, and I share the same sentiments with you guys on that.

Regardless of your guys' issue with 3-A AP (be it Dream Manipulation or the cast lacking more instances of battling such threats), I think the OP seems to have gone more in-depth on proving how these dreams can potentially be universal in size, given the translations and statements, so it should only be fair to treat it all as supporting evidence, no?

WARIO WORLD​

Ooooh, another interesting one. Many right now believe Wario has no known scaling to the Black Jewel himself due to this:
https://vsbattles.com/threads/wario-tanks-the-destruction-of-the-universe-but-not-really.120287/

Well, the evidence was a tad off, since…
“Black Jewel's AP section claims that he created a universe. The evidence comes from Nintendo's European website which states: “While Wario rests, the Jewel begins to morph his treasure trove into a melee of monsters, transforming the basement of Wario's castle into a bizarre parallel universe.”

Well, we actually found some additional sources for that! The JAPANESE Website!

https://www.nintendo.co.jp/ngc/gwwj/tengoku/index.html
さらに、黒い宝石は自分達の王国をつくろうとワリオ城を不思議な世界にしてしまいました。

(Translation: “Furthermore, the Black Jewel turned Wario Castle into a mysterious world in an attempt to create its own kingdom.”)
We can also use the English Manual to somewhat back this up:

https://****************/file/d/1revn1B_lwcWz5cgFNvyND1ZKn6OE7Zn6/view?usp=sharing

“And was changing Wario’s world into quite a weird place”.
This is further elaborated upon in the very intro of the game itself, where we see the Black Jewel exert its power, while Wario is flung across into this new world.
https://youtu.be/XVWQ0bmMFfA?si=7Y6oNsE6nq1HvvTC&t=87

Now, there was a common counter, as displayed here:

"It was argued in a previous thread that Black Jewel's attacks should scale to his creation. Although, for a reality warping feat to scale to energy attacks or physicals, we need some kind of proof, which I can't find anywhere. He also stated that he was filled with power to the level where it was overflowing. We also see red sparkles coming out of him all the while until he transforms Wario's basement into a universe. It seems that this reality warping needs him to be at his absolute max, and we don't see any such visual effects during his other energy or physical attacks where he simply shoots a fire laser from his eye."


This… isn’t much of an argument. Firstly, it does not say, “overflowing” but rather “chock-full”. Perhaps not a difference you may not see as relevant, but absolutely an exaggeration. But here’s the deal; here’s how they see Wario:

https://****************/file/d/12HdSl6t8ccfQL0zEQdWnKYUVMRGAH02R/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/1revn1B_lwcWz5cgFNvyND1ZKn6OE7Zn6/view?usp=sharing

https://****************/file/d/12HdSl6t8ccfQL0zEQdWnKYUVMRGAH02R/view?usp=sharing

He’s called a “Greedy Sap”. which is interesting considering that this character gains their power via the wishes and desires of other people, which someone like Wario was PLENTY of. This means that the Black Jewel is gaining much of his power through Wario’s sheer greed and lust, which is exemplified, since the Black Jewel fight happens within Wario’s presence. Odd to say they wouldn’t still have access to such power.

(LuckyEmile Notes: Probably just Wario. They mentioned it’s been sealed for so long everyone forgot about it, so I don’t think anyone was able to get near enough to the Black Jewel to be fed off, so Wario is really just their only fuel source! Like… you could be like “oh, between finding it and taking it home, maybe Wario carried it past people” but, like, you know. Maybe you’re splitting hairs then and not like we can say for sure he did pass anyone by. The English manual mentions some red moon was relevant here too but I dunno what they were going with with that)

I think that all this is enough to really solidify this feat as a valid one.

Now, I think we can do something about this.

Wario shouldn't scale to the Black Jewel's Universe-creating feat (at least NOT YET imo), but we also shouldn't ignore this feat the Black Jewel displays, either. So, considering we've done something similar in King Boo's case regarding his portal feat, how does granting the Black Jewel 3-A/Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction, Creation, and/or Reality Warping sound? Should be simple enough and not too controversial to add; we're not scaling Wario to its AP for now.

Whaddya say, Mav and Chomps? Think we have some common ground here for this proposal?

 

[Armorchompy]

For starters, I, of course, don't think Bowser actually created the painting worlds with the Power Stars due to the lack of explicit evidence stating he outright created them; however, I do believe the OP has made some very compelling arguments for the painting worlds in Peach's castle. Since he's given the fact that they are shown to have their own celestial bodies, history, and statements regarding terms like "endless" and "infinite", I believe things like this emphasize that these painting worlds should, at the very least, be larger than stellar, with the potential of being Multi-Galactic to possibly Universal in size.

I don't think the "endless/infinite" stuff is actually usable as I mentioned.

I think the OP seems to have gone more in-depth on proving how these dreams can potentially be universal in size, given the translations and statements, so it should only be fair to treat it all as supporting evidence, no?

This is already treated as canon, isn't it? It's where Dreamy Bowser gets his tier from. The actual scaling is the problem.

Wario shouldn't scale to the Black Jewel's Universe-creating feat (at least NOT YET imo), but we also shouldn't ignore this feat the Black Jewel displays, either. So, considering we've done something similar in King Boo's case regarding his portal feat, how does granting the Black Jewel 3-A/Low 2-C via Environmental Destruction, Creation, and/or Reality Warping sound? Should be simple enough and not too controversial to add; we're not scaling Wario to its AP for now.

I don't think there's much evidence for 3-A. If you wanna make him 4-C with RW since there's apparently a star in the realm I think that's fine.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I don't think there's much evidence for 3-A. If you wanna make him 4-C with RW since there's apparently a star in the realm I think that's fine.

I'm fine with that, just as long as there's something to get out of this thread; I'll gladly look for more evidence of universal size if you need it.

What's everyone else's opinion on this?

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

For starters, I, of course, don't think Bowser actually created the painting worlds with the Power Stars due to the lack of explicit evidence stating he outright created them;

BRUH.

It was my FIRST SCAN.