Invulnerability of curses

[LIFE_OF_KING]

We currently accept that curses have invulnerability. However, our page does not explain it proply, and many people seem to be confused about it. As such, this CRT does have the goal to make the justification better and decide if it's really invulnerability.

@LaserPrecision along some other users plan to revise the CE page eventually, so this is pretty useful for future revisions

This must be simple

Proof of invul

1. Megumi explains that only a curse can exorcize a curse, and no matter how strong you're (Ch. 1)
2. Cursed Naoya, a curse with durability inferior to Hanami (Ch. 194), states that Maki, a High 7-C, can hit him all her want since she lacks cursed energy, unable to do any damage (Ch. 197)
3. It's stated that bullets are irrelevant against curses and causes no harm since it lacks cursed energy (JJK 2nd Light Novel, Ch. 4)
4. Toji had to change from a normal katana to a cursed tool to scape from a curse (Ch. 71)
5. Gege states that Toji, despiste his strength, is unable to fight curses since he lacks cursed energy and needs to use cursed tools (Fanbook). This would make Toji unable to do anything against grade 4 curses

Change of justificative

(Curses can only be exorcized by another curse no matter how strong you're. Attacks without cursed energy are noted to be not even worth to be dodged, and no matter how many times you hit, it's irrelevant. Even if you're physically far superior, you can only hope to fight a curse with a cursed tool)

Some people same want to make it damage reduction instead of invul due to the change of standards, but I really don't know much about it

This should be applied for Shikigamis
It's easy. Curses are invulnerable because they are made out of cursed energy, which is basically the same for Shikigamis. Curses and Shikigamis are noted to be similar several times, specially in modulo

 

[Mommyleona]

despiste

Minor. Spelling. Mistake.
Otherwise, im unsure on the Shikigami part

 

[Duedate8898]

Simply enough, I can approve this CRT

 

[Arkenis]

There's the shikigami user who fought Geto and we see he materializes his shikigami through cursed energy as well

 

[Apotheosis69]

In short, it's basically Mental-Based Invulernability.

Agree with everythin, except Shikigami

 

[Arkenis]

Shikigami lit called spiritual being, shikigamis lit spiritual gods in irl mythology, they lit invul just off existence.

 

[Thermor]

This wont be accepted I'm afraid as the staff thread explained that invulnerability is only give out to characters that has it via an active ability like CM or time manip.

Small Tweaks to Invulnerability

Hello folks. I find that the Invulnerability power page is one that has caused a lot of confusion and misunderstanding due to a few select issues, and could use with some better wording. This is my proposal. The idea behind it is pretty simple, I've seen a lot of people misusing or even abusing...

vsbattles.com

Simply enough, I can approve this CRT

There's also this thread you need to check.

Suggested invulnerability changes

tldr wok is salty that he didn't get to delete this power last time and tries to neuter it agai I think we should better define Invulnerability. Given that we already have Durability Negation, I think it makes more sense to concretely define Invulnerability as Attack Potency Negation, more...

vsbattles.com

 

[Arkenis]

This wont be accepted I'm afraid as the staff thread explained that invulnerability is only give out to characters that has it via an active ability like CM or time manip.

Small Tweaks to Invulnerability

Hello folks. I find that the Invulnerability power page is one that has caused a lot of confusion and misunderstanding due to a few select issues, and could use with some better wording. This is my proposal. The idea behind it is pretty simple, I've seen a lot of people misusing or even abusing...

vsbattles.com

There's also this thread you need to check.

Suggested invulnerability changes

tldr wok is salty that he didn't get to delete this power last time and tries to neuter it agai I think we should better define Invulnerability. Given that we already have Durability Negation, I think it makes more sense to concretely define Invulnerability as Attack Potency Negation, more...

vsbattles.com

I'd assume the invulnerability is more or less just their incorporeality instead no? So it is pretty redundant to say they're invul like saying a concept is invul because a regular person can't harm concepts.

 

[Thermor]

I'd assume the invulnerability is more or less just their incorporeality instead no? So it is pretty redundant to say they're invul like saying a concept is invul because a regular person can't harm concepts.

It's not incorpereality but a system. Like you can use reality warping to make yourself invulnerable to any attack, not just like "you need this to bypass my durability/damage reduction".

 

[Arkenis]

It's not incorpereality but a system. Like you can use reality warping to make yourself invulnerable to any attack, not just like "you need this to bypass my durability/damage reduction".

I'm saying cursed spirits inability to be harmed by regular attacks is a byproduct of their incorporeality. This has zero to do with durability or damage reduction

 

[Zabazab]

I'm saying cursed spirits inability to be harmed by regular attacks is a byproduct of their incorporeality. This has zero to do with durability or damage reduction

I don't think Cursed Spirits are incorporeal. Lower-Grade spirits can become intangible, and higher-Grade spirits can't even do that much.

 

[Arkenis]

I don't think Cursed Spirits are incorporeal. Lower-Grade spirits can become intangible, and higher-Grade spirits can't even do that much.

Incorporeality is not about if they can be touched or not, it's about what one's true essence is despite their body. CS have avatars but their true self is the fear and negative emotions they embody.

 

[Zabazab]

Incorporeality is not about if they can be touched or not, it's about what one's true essence is despite their body. CS have avatars but their true self is the fear and negative emotions they embody.

Not how Cursed Spirits work at all. They do not embody fears or emotions. They are beings of Cursed Energy born from when the Cursed Energy leaking out of non-sorcerers gathers together, usually due to negative feelings being directed towards a location, event, phenomenon, etc.

Jogo's body is just made of Cursed Energy instead of matter. He is not using an avatar. He is neither intangible nor incorporeal.

 

[Arkenis]

Not how Cursed Spirits work at all. They do not embody fears or emotions. They are beings of Cursed Energy born from when the Cursed Energy leaking out of non-sorcerers gathers together, usually due to negative feelings being directed towards a location, event, phenomenon, etc.

Argue with a wall or something

 

[Thermor]

I'm saying cursed spirits inability to be harmed by regular attacks is a byproduct of their incorporeality. This has zero to do with durability or damage reduction

Then just list it as that, no need to add invulnerability.

 

[Arkenis]

Yeah I know, just seems a misunderstanding or pointless need to add more than needed.

 

[Zabazab]

Argue with a wall or something

These scans say exactly what I said

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Well, we need to put it as something. It is not incorporeality. This is not Jojo. Normal people can touch strong curses since they have no intangibility, they just cant harm them

 

[Armorchompy]

This wont be accepted I'm afraid as the staff thread explained that invulnerability is only give out to characters that has it via an active ability like CM or time manip.

Small Tweaks to Invulnerability

Hello folks. I find that the Invulnerability power page is one that has caused a lot of confusion and misunderstanding due to a few select issues, and could use with some better wording. This is my proposal. The idea behind it is pretty simple, I've seen a lot of people misusing or even abusing...

vsbattles.com

It's not really that it has to be active, more so it can't just be easily indexed as some other ability. Like a generic ghost wouldn't because they're just intangible. I'm not really sure if this is the same thing though, normally if you're able to make contact with an object it isn't intangible, at least not in the traditional sense.

So from what I've seen here it should qualify as invincibility (Maybe "Invincibility and unconventional Incorporeality"?), albeit potentially a version of the ability that's bypassed by NPI.

 

[Thermor]

Well, we need to put it as something. It is not incorporeality. This is not Jojo. Normal people can touch strong curses since they have no intangibility, they just cant harm them

If that's the case, just do:
Damage Reduction (up to tier 7)

 

[Thermor]

It's not really that it has to be active, more so it can't just be easily indexed as some other ability. Like a generic ghost wouldn't because they're just intangible. I'm not really sure if this is the same thing though, normally if you're able to make contact with an object it isn't intangible, at least not in the traditional sense.

So from what I've seen here it should qualify as invincibility, albeit potentially a version of the ability that's bypassed by NPI.

Would intangibility even qualify for a invulnerable mechanism? I'm pretty sure it's just characters can't touch them which makes the invul ability redundant.

 

[Arkenis]

Characters can touch them, they just can't harm them.

 

[Armorchompy]

Would intangibility even qualify for a invulnerable mechanism? I'm pretty sure it's just characters can't touch them which makes the invul ability redundant.

They can touch them, though. Like there's impact visuals and anything, the energy of the attack just fails to have effect.

 

[Thermor]

If characters can touch them, then they lose their intangibility status and just be given damage reduction. To gain invulnerability, you need an active ability to explain how arbitrarily powerful attacks are nullified. Need something like RW, TM, CM and etc.

 

[Arkenis]

Armor just said it's not that it has to active, the idea is that if it can be indexxed as something else we do that. How AE or Incorporeal don't cover this is not reasonable compared damage redux makes no sense when nothing implies reduction.

 

[Thermor]

Armor just said it's not that it has to active, the idea is that if it can be indexxed as something else we do that. How AE or Incorporeal don't cover this is not reasonable compared damage redux makes no sense when nothing implies reduction.

Suggested invulnerability changes

tldr wok is salty that he didn't get to delete this power last time and tries to neuter it agai I think we should better define Invulnerability. Given that we already have Durability Negation, I think it makes more sense to concretely define Invulnerability as Attack Potency Negation, more...

vsbattles.com

 

[Armorchompy]

Suggested invulnerability changes

tldr wok is salty that he didn't get to delete this power last time and tries to neuter it agai I think we should better define Invulnerability. Given that we already have Durability Negation, I think it makes more sense to concretely define Invulnerability as Attack Potency Negation, more...

vsbattles.com

"We should require evidence of a mechanic that works outside the bounds of normal AP"

This is a mechanic that works outside the bounds of normal AP.

 

[Thermor]

"We should require evidence of a mechanic that works outside the bounds of normal AP"

This is a mechanic that works outside the bounds of normal AP.

But I do not think intangibility is one of them as characters touching them just contradicts them having it.

 

[Armorchompy]

And this isn't intangibility, because they can touch them just fine, they just can't affect them. It's clearly intended to work similarly to incorporeality but there's clear differences.

 

[Thermor]

And this isn't intangibility, because they can touch them just fine, they just can't affect them. It's clearly intended to work similarly to incorporeality but there's clear differences.

Are you suggesting some sort paradoxical existence? I personally would want Agnaa gives his input here but he will be out for few months.

 

[Mommyleona]

then they lose their intangibility status

only low grade curses have intangibility
higher grade curses never had intangibility

But I do not think intangibility is one of them as characters touching them just contradicts them having it.

dude, what, intangibility is not used here to justify invulnerability

 

[Thermor]

dude, what, intangibility is not used here to justify invulnerability

Then what is other than "only this can damage them"?

 

[Zabazab]

I fully agree with Cursed Spirit invulnerability to attacks without Cursed Energy.

This should be applied for Shikigamis
It's easy. Curses are invulnerable because they are made out of cursed energy, which is basically the same for Shikigamis. Curses and Shikigamis are noted to be similar several times, specially in modulo

I don't think this should be solidly applied to Shikigami if this is the only evidence for it. There's no statement that either explicitly or implicitly says Shikigami are the same as Cursed Spirits in that way.

Both of those scans are also the opinions of Simurians upon seeing Shikigami for the first time, since their planet has no Cursed Spirits or Shikigami.

 

[Armorchompy]

Are you suggesting some sort paradoxical existence? I personally would want Agnaa gives his input here but he will be out for few months.

Not really. It's pretty simple, conventional non-cursed AP isn't something that can harm cursed spirits even if their durability is relatively low, this is a pretty standard invulnerability setup. It's pretty similar to how certain monsters from D&D work, only magic weaponry can harm them, normal weapons just fail to register even if they hit even though they're tangible.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I don't think this should be solidly applied to Shikigami if this is the only evidence for it. There's no statement that either explicitly or implicitly says Shikigami are the same as Cursed Spirits in that way

The first scan is Tsurugi not being sure about if it's a curse or a Shikigami

Curses are made out of cursed energy, so technically any object/creature made out of pure cursed energy would have some similar logic behind.

Tho, I don't want this to be long so if people still disagree I can wait for Laser's CRT before revising

 

[Thermor]

Not really. It's pretty simple, conventional non-cursed AP isn't something that can harm cursed spirits even if their durability is relatively low, this is a pretty standard invulnerability setup. It's pretty similar to how certain monsters from D&D work, only magic weaponry can harm them, normal weapons just fail to register even if they hit even though they're tangible.

Agnaa mentioned something similar like "Magic did it", it would just count as a source not mechanism.

 

[Armorchompy]

Yes I know, I was in the thread. I made the thread. Don't cite Agnaa as some superior authority with a deeper understanding of the power than me, we basically just both agree on how it works, and you are misunderstanding what he meant and also what I meant. In this case we have a very clear mechanism in fact and I have outlined it repeatedly, as has OP. The core concept of invulnerability is "ignore AP regardless of its energy in a way that isn't raw durability". That's very clearly what goes on here. We have explained it several times. There is no other way to interpret the ability. I will not explain this again just for your sake.

 

[Armorchompy]

Tho, I don't want this to be long so if people still disagree I can wait for Laser's CRT before revising

I glossed over this bit since the discussion was not focused on it but that might be a good idea, basically separate thing.

 

[Thermor]

Yes I know, I was in the thread. I made the thread. Don't cite Agnaa as some superior authority with a deeper understanding of the power than me, we basically just both agree on how it works. In this case we have a very clear mechanism in fact and I have outlined it repeatedly, as has OP. The core concept of invulnerability is "ignore AP regardless of its energy in a way that isn't raw durability". That's what's been going on here. We have explained it several times. There is no other way to interpret the ability. I will not explain this again just for your sake.

If you both agree on how it works, you wouldn't be saying things that contradicts him. I'm pretty sure Agnaa is citable as one of the more experienced members here, especially having a much higher staff role than thread mod. If you dont want to explain it again, thats fine.

 

[Armorchompy]

If you're going to keep being stubborn about something you clearly do not understand and keep using about the perceived opinion of a user who isn't here (and who won't be on wiki for months) as though it were an actual argument, I am simply not going to engage with anything you say anymore. But I am quickly going to point out that neither Agnaa's seniority (which he doesn't have because I've been staff for longer than him) or his rank actually grant his opinion any more weight than mine.

This thread can be applied with another approval.