WAHOOOO! Mario Bros AP Revisions - Part 2

[JPTheGamer]

This revision aims to upgrade the current cast of Super Mario Bros. to a higher level than they already are. For this thread, we will be proposing a Tier 5-A to High 5-A and Pre-Stellar Lifting Strength upgrade for the cast based on a few calculations.

Without further ado... "Let's-a go!"

Spoiler: Feat 1 - D. Bowser's Storm

Feat 1: After absorbing the Dark Star, Dark Bowser begins enveloping the entire world in darkness, a phenomenon explicitly described as consuming the planet. 5-C (33.279092 Exatons of TNT)

• Calc was accepted and covered in the previous thread.
• Dark Bowser can cough up the Dark Star Core, and the storm is visibly not dissipated. This is narratively the case, as even when the Dark Star Core is defeated, we can see the storm, and it vanishes in a later cutscene. A simple counter to this is Dark Bowser can keep the perks from having absorbed Fawful/DSC, as we see before the absorption, Dark Bowser had a ghostly form without legs, which he does not revert to on spitting out Fawful/DSC, standing to reason he should keep the power too.
• The feat is performed using the same Dark Star energy he uses for attacks and body.

Spoiler: Feat 2 - Snow King's planetary ice age

Feat 2: The Snow King threatens to turn the world into his icebox. At least Low 5-B (2.378 Zettatons of TNT)

• Freezing the entire Earth is calculated at Small Planet level on the References for Common Feats page.
• The Snow King encased Bowser in an impenetrable sheet of ice, which was able to be melted with a fire flower.

Spoiler: Feat 3 - Lucien's world-devastating power

Feat 3: The world was stated to face total devastation unless Bowser (who had Lucien) was stopped. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons of TNT to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

• Mario can counter and tank Bowser's attacks, who is empowered via Lucien.

Spoiler: Feat 4 - Genie creates a planet

Feat 4: The Genie from Wario Land creates a planet with Wario's face on it. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

• The genie doesn't use his physicals or strength to create the planet; it was done by his AP through a power/ability alone. Wario can withstand certain magics and energies from the genie.

Spoiler: Feat 5 - King K. Rool and the Banandium

Feat 5: King K Rool threatens to turn the world into banana mush. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

• Donkey Kong was able to battle and defeat Banandium-empowered King K Rool with his various transformations and abilities.

Spoiler: Feat 6 - Bowser on an exploding planet

Feat 6: Bowser withstands the explosion of an entire planet. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

• Lacks a calculation; theorized to be High 3-A

Spoiler: Feat 7 - Power of the Crystal Stars

Feat 7: Crystal Stars hold the power of the stars. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

• Stated by CloverDragon03 in the previous thread to be High 6-A, but later hinted by Chariot190 to be higher, capping at likely/possibly 5-B

Spoiler: Feat 8 - Cackletta's Black Holes

Feat 8: Cackletta creates black holes during her battle with the Mario Bros. 5-A; Pre-Stellar (10.022304732327527 to 14.390187858528636 Yottatons of TNT)

• NOTE: For the sake of accuracy and fairness, we won't count this feat.

Spoiler: Feat 9 - Peach's Castle's Black Hole

Feat 9: Peach's mechanized castle creates a black hole during its fight with Giant Bowser. 5-A; Pre-Stellar (84.4407695985879 Yottatons of TNT; 8.4837502e+27 kg)

• Bowser was able to match the energy of a black hole with his flame breath. He was also able to take in similar energy attacks from the large mechanized Peach's Castle.
• Requires more proof.

Spoiler: Feat 10 - Bowser's Black Hole in MP9

Feat 10: Bowser creates a black hole in the final minigame. 5-A; Pre-Stellar (5.434860181651925 Ninatons of TNT; 5.460395e+29 kg)

• The cast can easily withstand Bowser's other non-physical attacks, like his fireballs and summons.

Spoiler: Feat 11 - Giant Fan

Feat 11: Paper Mario uses a giant fan to spin the planet rapidly. High 5-A (12.0231594266 Ronnatons of TNT).

• Also accepted and covered in the previous thread.

Overview and Conclusion​

As I stated before, the purpose of this thread is mostly to upgrade the cast of the Super Mario Bros to Tier 5-A to High 5-A and Pre-Stellar Lifting Strength based upon a series of calculations and other feats.

Should we consider these feats as outliers? No, because calling these feats outliers ignores the scaling context of everyone's feats, which are repeatedly world-to-universe scale across multiple timelines and continuities. The storm feat is not an environmental or passive event — the power is a direct result of Dark Star absorption, which also empowers Dark Bowser’s physical form, granting him massive size and combat strength. Physical confrontations occur with no narrative separation between “magical” and “physical” power, meaning magic potency scales to AP and Durability. As Bowser and the Mario Bros physically fight the final boss, it implies they are capable of contending with energy output on a planetary scale, consistent with Tier 5 tiering. There's no visual evidence to prove that these are outliers, and even though these calculations are beyond any High 6-A feat, we can't ignore or hide a feat that canonically occurs under the justification of avoiding inflation. Therefore, upgrading the mainline Mario cast and high-tier antagonists to Tier 5 should be fully justified under the current VS Battles scaling standards.

For the updated proposal, click here.​

With all that aside, it's time to discuss...

Agree: @Psychomaster35, @Dalesean027, @Duedate8898 (Only agrees with using feats 1 and 11; fine with the Genie scaling to his planet feat),
Disagree: @Armorchompy (Agrees with new proposals here)
Neutral: @Imaginym (Agrees with new proposals here)

Special thanks to: @Dalesean027, @Chariot190, @CloverDragon03, and @LuckyEmile, @Niarobi

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Completely agree with everything.

Let's see how the rest of em react...

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Based as heck, agree with the cast being 5.

 

[SomebodyData]

Could you provide the scaling and tiers of each character you plan to revise? (Sounds like the verse will vary heavily between 5-C to High 5-A but not sure who will end up where)

 

[JPTheGamer]

Could you provide the scaling and tiers of each character you plan to revise? (Sounds like the verse will vary heavily between 5-C to High 5-A but not sure who will end up where)

Mostly aiming to get at least/likely/possibly 5-A for almost all the main cast.

 

[Psychomaster35]

About f*cking time this happened. This series has been downplayed for so long, though this might still be a far cry away from recovering from this state.

That said, these feats ae good, so I agree.

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

following

 

[Ruby_R_Dracula]

also feel like you should remove feat 7 from the crt, for now, considering it like lacks a calc, or a in-game statement

 

[Dust_Collector]

Busy doing some IRL stuff to go through most of this, but can I ask for the proof that Bowser made that black hole in MP9? There's no cutscene or statement about him making it, he just grows big and then suddenly it cuts to the cast fighting in front of it and then he's beaten and they're just back at his space station

 

[Imaginym]

Could you provide the scaling and tiers of each character you plan to revise? (Sounds like the verse will vary heavily between 5-C to High 5-A but not sure who will end up where)

I also would like to know this.
Also, if I may ask, why you are asking this? No offense meant.

Mostly aiming to get at least/likely/possibly 5-A for almost all the main cast.

@SomebodyData Does this answer provide sufficient information for you?

To the CRT's credit, the feats do seem somewhat consistent in isolation, but on the other hand, some are values in the same tier, but using different kinds of tonnage, indicating some are many times higher than the others.

Then again, such tiers have such wide high-end to low-end ratios, IIRC, that differences of that scale MIGHT not matter, but....

Well, besides who the CRT seeks to apply which to, it may be good to establish some kind of ordering of the feats by yield indicating how many times higher or lower than others it is. At least, I think that may help if we are to assess consistency & who to apply what to.

 

[JPTheGamer]

I also would like to know this.
Also, if I may ask, why you are asking this? No offense meant.

@SomebodyData Does this answer provide sufficient for you?

To the CRT's credit, the feats do seem somewhat consistent in isolation, but on the other hand, some are values in the same tier, but using different kinds of tonnage, indicating some are many times higher than the others.

Then again, such tiers have such wide high-end to low-end ratios, IIRC, that differences of that scale MIGHT not matter, but....

Well, besides who the CRT seeks to apply which to, it may be good to establish some kind of ordering of the feats by yield indicating how many times higher or lower than others it is. At least, I think that may help if we are to assess consistency & who to apply what to.

What can I put your vote down as?

 

[Imaginym]

What can I put your vote down as?

If you insist on the clarification of a stance at this point, then as "Undecided"; Awaiting further information.
Apologies for any bother.
Good luck!

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

About f*cking time this happened. This series has been downplayed for so long, though this might still be a far cry away from recovering from this state.

That said, these feats ae good, so I agree.

A certain someone might change that.

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

Please, no snarky comments. I get it. Downplay sucks. But keep that junk else where.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Spoiler: Feat 2 - Snow King's planetary ice age

Feat 2: The Snow King threatens to turn the world into his icebox. At least Low 5-B (2.378 Zettatons of TNT)

• Freezing the entire Earth is calculated at Small Planet level on the References for Common Feats page.
• The Snow King encased Bowser in an impenetrable sheet of ice, which was able to be melted with a fire flower.

I’m not that aware of the plot of Super Rush, but if it’s implied in the narrative to be a relatively quick action then sure.

Spoiler: Feat 3 - Lucien's world-devastating power

Feat 3: The world was stated to face total devastation unless Bowser (who had Lucien) was stopped. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons of TNT to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

• Mario can counter and tank Bowser's attacks, who is empowered via Lucien.

Spoiler: Feat 4 - Genie creates a planet

Feat 4: The Genie from Wario Land creates a planet with Wario's face on it. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

• The genie doesn't use his physicals or strength to create the planet; it was done by his AP through a power/ability alone. Wario can withstand certain magics and energies from the genie.

These seem good enough for a “possibly/likely 5-B” rating if all the higher ones are rejected. I don’t agree with them warranting a solid rating on their own but they’re good supporting stuff.

Spoiler: Feat 5 - King K. Rool and the Banandium

Feat 5: King K Rool threatens to turn the world into banana mush. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

• Donkey Kong was able to battle and defeat Banandium-empowered King K Rool with his various transformations and abilities.

This I disagree with right now, we later saw K-Rool start by transforming just New Donk City which wasn’t even an instant process. I don’t think he was going to instantly turn the world into banana mush.

(As an aside I’m surprised the banana tower and storm-dispersing feats haven’t been calced yet, at least as far as I’m aware. More tier 6 feats would be nice for consistency)

Spoiler: Feat 7 - Power of the Crystal Stars

Feat 7: Crystal Stars hold the power of the stars. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

• Stated by CloverDragon03 in the previous thread to be High 6-A, but later hinted by Chariot190 to be higher, capping at likely/possibly 5-B

Should probably have a proper calc first before it gets proposed in a CRT.

Spoiler: Feat 6 - Bowser on an exploding planet

Feat 6: Bowser withstands the explosion of an entire planet. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

Do we consider these actual planets lore-wise? I coincidentally just got done replaying Galaxy 2, and Battle Belt Galaxy’s mission is called “Mini-Planet Mega Run” (implying all the celestial bodies you travel across are called mini-planets).

Spoiler: Feat 8 - Cackletta's Black Holes

Feat 8: Cackletta creates black holes during her battle with the Mario Bros. 5-A; Pre-Stellar (10.022304732327527 to 14.390187858528636 Yottatons of TNT)

Spoiler: Feat 9 - Peach's Castle's Black Hole

Feat 9: Peach's mechanized castle creates a black hole during its fight with Giant Bowser. 5-A; Pre-Stellar (84.4407695985879 Yottatons of TNT; 8.4837502e+27 kg)

• Bowser was able to match the energy of a black hole with his flame breath. He was also able to take in similar energy attacks from the large mechanized Peach's Castle.

Spoiler: Feat 10 - Bowser's Black Hole in MP9

Feat 10: Bowser creates a black hole in the final minigame. 5-A; Pre-Stellar (5.434860181651925 Ninatons of TNT; 5.460395e+29 kg)

• The cast can easily withstand Bowser's other non-physical attacks, like his fireballs and summons.

Assuming these all pass the standards for black hole feats, then I’m conflicted. There’s a pretty big gap between a lot of the feats, especially since the BiS black hole feat is done by an amped Bowser. There’s a lot of proposed feats in tier 5 though so I wouldn’t mind 5-A if enough of them are accepted.

Spoiler: Feat 11 - Giant Fan

Feat 11: Paper Mario uses a giant fan to spin the planet rapidly. High 5-A (12.0231594266 Ronnatons of TNT).

• Also accepted and covered in the previous thread.

Wasn’t it said in the previous thread that this should only scale to Paper Mario characters since it happens after Paper Jam?

———————

Overall thoughts for now is that I’m conflicted on a bit of stuff, but I think the Mario cast should get “High 6-A, possibly/likely 5-B” from the Bowcien and Genie things at the bare minimum.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Could you provide the scaling and tiers of each character you plan to revise? (Sounds like the verse will vary heavily between 5-C to High 5-A but not sure who will end up where)

I also would like to know this.
Also, if I may ask, why you are asking this? No offense meant.

@SomebodyData Does this answer provide sufficient for you?

To the CRT's credit, the feats do seem somewhat consistent in isolation, but on the other hand, some are values in the same tier, but using different kinds of tonnage, indicating some are many times higher than the others.

Then again, such tiers have such wide high-end to low-end ratios, IIRC, that differences of that scale MIGHT not matter, but....

Well, besides who the CRT seeks to apply which to, it may be good to establish some kind of ordering of the feats by yield indicating how many times higher or lower than others it is. At least, I think that may help if we are to assess consistency & who to apply what to.

If you insist on the clarification of a stance at this point, then as "Undecided"; Awaiting further information.
Apologies for any bother.
Good luck!

Okay, basically...

• Feat 2 is roughly 71x higher than feat 1. Feat 1 applies to Dark Bowser, Dark Star, Bowser, the Mario Bros, and likely a few others; feat 2 applies to the Snow King, possibly Bowser, and likely a few others
• Feats 3 to 7 are 25 to 25,000x higher than feat 2. They apply to Lucien, Genie, Wario, Donkey Kong, King K. Rool, Paper Mario, and likely a
• few others (possibly those who fought and scale to these people like the Mario Bros).
• Feat 11 is 2,212x higher than feat 10. Should only apply to Paper Mario and other Paper characters, but might also be applicable to those who fought Paper Mario

Will continue to update; I'm using this

 

[Galactidot]

About f*cking time this happened. This series has been downplayed for so long, though this might still be a far cry away from recovering from this state.

That said, these feats ae good, so I agree.

Exactly, agree on this!

 

[Eseseso]

Looks good

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Yo?? Mario is finally coming back?! Agree. This looks good, finally no more Downplay!

 

[Dalesean027]

Yo?? Mario is finally coming back?! Agree. This looks good, finally no more Downplay!

Well less that and more that composites have to be judged by all feats which includes every anti-feat but unfortunately most people composite and just ignore any anti-feats or lower consistently shit while putting only the best stuff.

That said though this looks okay for now and I'll ping some of those in the OP

@Chariot190, @CloverDragon03, and @LuckyEmile

I'll also ping @Armorchompy though since he has done lots of work for the series and @DarkDragonMedeus since he's knowledgeable

 

[Imaginym]

Okay, basically...

• Feat 2 is roughly 71x higher than feat 1. Feat 1 applies to Dark Bowser, Dark Star, Bowser, the Mario Bros, and likely a few others; feat 2 applies to the Snow King, possibly Bowser, and likely a few others
• Feats 3 to 7 are 25 to 25,000x higher than feat 2. They apply to Lucien, Genie, Wario, Donkey Kong, King K. Rool, Paper Mario, and likely a
• few others (possibly those who fought and scale to these people like the Mario Bros).
• Feat 11 is 2,212x higher than feat 10. Should only apply to Paper Mario and other Paper characters, but might also be applicable to those who fought Paper Mario

Will continue to update; I'm using this

Thank you very much.
Because of SomebodyData's post, where they said "Could you provide the scaling and tiers of each character you plan to revise? (Sounds like the verse will vary heavily between 5-C to High 5-A but not sure who will end up where)", I feel, I, at least, should wait to see if SD has anything to brought up with the requested information provided.

 

[Armorchompy]

Give me a minute. Almost nothing here is valid.

 

[SuperMarioGamers3]

Give me a minute. Almost nothing here is valid.

Let's see...

 

[Galactidot]

Give me a minute. Almost nothing here is valid.

Nah bruh, just accept the calcs for ONCE, what did Mario do to bro

 

[Dalesean027]

Nah bruh, just accept the calcs for ONCE, what did Mario do to bro

Refrain from this please

 

[Armorchompy]

Spoiler: Feat 1 - D. Bowser's Storm

Feat 1: After absorbing the Dark Star, Dark Bowser begins enveloping the entire world in darkness, a phenomenon explicitly described as consuming the planet. 5-C (33.279092 Exatons of TNT)

• Calc was accepted and covered in the previous thread.
• Dark Bowser can cough up the Dark Star Core, and the storm is visibly not dissipated. This is narratively the case, as even when the Dark Star Core is defeated, we can see the storm, and it vanishes in a later cutscene. A simple counter to this is Dark Bowser can keep the perks from having absorbed Fawful/DSC, as we see before the absorption, Dark Bowser had a ghostly form without legs, which he does not revert to on spitting out Fawful/DSC, standing to reason he should keep the power too.
• The feat is performed using the same Dark Star energy he uses for attacks and body.

This is the only semi-valid feat. There's a pretty big question mark over it in that the KE timeframe is calculated using the moment darkness is shown to envelop the Mushroom Kingdom, but that would logically happen well before the rest of the world is covered up, given it's the epicenter of the feat and a very tiny portion of the world's whole surface. We're told pretty clearly that the timeframe is still small so the feat is valid but the specifics of the method inflate the result, possibly by a few magnitudes.

Spoiler: Feat 2 - Snow King's planetary ice age

Feat 2: The Snow King threatens to turn the world into his icebox. At least Low 5-B (2.378 Zettatons of TNT)

• Freezing the entire Earth is calculated at Small Planet level on the References for Common Feats page.
• The Snow King encased Bowser in an impenetrable sheet of ice, which was able to be melted with a fire flower.

Assuming the fire flower bit is supposed to be the way this scales back to physicals, it makes no sense. One cube of ice =/= the entirety of the ice that would be laid over the world, and even if it did just because creating ice requires a certain amount of energy doesn't mean the ice's durability scales to it.

Finally, we have no timeframe for this. It could very well not happen in a combat applicable timeframe. This is clearly unusable.

Spoiler: Feat 3 - Lucien's world-devastating power

Feat 3: The world was stated to face total devastation unless Bowser (who had Lucien) was stopped. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons of TNT to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

• Mario can counter and tank Bowser's attacks, who is empowered via Lucien.

"Total devastation" is much too vague to be given a rating and is fully within the capability of a High 6-A character even assumed to be instant worldwide destruction rather than a more generic "raze the world statement", which it likely is because they don't elaborate on it at all. Even at its highest we'd just assume this to be High 6-A.

Spoiler: Feat 4 - Genie creates a planet

Feat 4: The Genie from Wario Land creates a planet with Wario's face on it. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

• The genie doesn't use his physicals or strength to create the planet; it was done by his AP through a power/ability alone. Wario can withstand certain magics and energies from the genie.

The genie has no UES or reason for this to scale to his offensive magic. In addition the planet is visibly tiny. This feat was rejected in the past.

Spoiler: Feat 5 - King K. Rool and the Banandium

Feat 5: King K Rool threatens to turn the world into banana mush. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

• Donkey Kong was able to battle and defeat Banandium-empowered King K Rool with his various transformations and abilities.

This is transmutation, which is a duraneg hax, and not AP. Even if it was, others have pointed out it's overtime.

Spoiler: Feat 6 - Bowser on an exploding planet

Feat 6: Bowser withstands the explosion of an entire planet. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

A tiny planet that's maybe a few hundred meters in diameter. Usable, but nowhere near tier 5. Even if it was the full size of a planet, inverse square law would make this into a tier 6 feat, given Bowser's standing on the surface.

Spoiler: Feat 7 - Power of the Crystal Stars

Feat 7: Crystal Stars hold the power of the stars. Likely/Possibly 5-B (59.44 Zettatons to 3.8 Yottatons of TNT)

• Stated by CloverDragon03 in the previous thread to be High 6-A, but later hinted by Chariot190 to be higher, capping at likely/possibly 5-B

Directly quoting Chariot's own post: "the statement is explicitly unconfirmed conjecture" "It might not actually be true". He himself stresses that anything over High 6-A is basically his own opinion. This is not usable.

Spoiler: Feat 8 - Cackletta's Black Holes

Feat 8: Cackletta creates black holes during her battle with the Mario Bros. 5-A; Pre-Stellar (10.022304732327527 to 14.390187858528636 Yottatons of TNT)

Spoiler: Feat 9 - Peach's Castle's Black Hole

Feat 9: Peach's mechanized castle creates a black hole during its fight with Giant Bowser. 5-A; Pre-Stellar (84.4407695985879 Yottatons of TNT; 8.4837502e+27 kg)

• Bowser was able to match the energy of a black hole with his flame breath. He was also able to take in similar energy attacks from the large mechanized Peach's Castle.

Spoiler: Feat 10 - Bowser's Black Hole in MP9

Feat 10: Bowser creates a black hole in the final minigame. 5-A; Pre-Stellar (5.434860181651925 Ninatons of TNT; 5.460395e+29 kg)

Black Holes need to be proven to be real based on fairly stringent standards. None of these meet them.

Spoiler: Feat 11 - Giant Fan

Feat 11: Paper Mario uses a giant fan to spin the planet rapidly. High 5-A (12.0231594266 Ronnatons of TNT).

• Also accepted and covered in the previous thread.

This feat is actually fine but surface area screws it over, as shown in the blog. Even if it didn't, the base Mario cast doesn't backscale to Paper Mario's Color Splash feats.

Overview and Conclusion​

As I stated before, the purpose of this thread is mostly to upgrade the cast of the Super Mario Bros to Tier 5-A to High 5-A and Pre-Stellar Lifting Strength based upon a series of calculations and other feats.

The actual conclusion here is that just about everything in this post is not a real feat. I would emphasize to anyone reading this thread that quality does in no way strengthen an argument. Almost all of these "feats" are unquestionably wrong, and while it's easy to get fooled by the sheer amount posted into thinking that they must be consistent, this was no doubt purposefully done to obfuscate the fact that they don't hold water even to superficial scrutiny. I say purposefully because Omnificience has been in the past repeatedly informed of our black hole standards and very clearly deliberately chose to ignore them to bloat his CRT with more apparent feats.

Regarding the Dark Star feat, that one's mostly fine but as I've mentioned the timeframe does put it in jeopardy. I don't think it's good to use as is but presuming Dale agrees it could be recalced.

 

[Armorchompy]

Refrain from this please

It's not a problem, I think it was said fairly lightheardely.

 

[Zanesucksatlife]

Well less that and more that composites have to be judged by all feats which includes every anti-feat but unfortunately most people composite and just ignore any anti-feats or lower consistently shit while putting only the best stuff.

True

 

[Chariot190]

As much as I am literally never wrong, my hinting at it being higher was
1. 5-C, not planetary i counted every ******* star, it's locked away in a old sticky note but it was a few thousand iirc.
2. We would need a calc for it anyway.
3. Shadow Queen is explicitly 1:1 with the all the stars, but this doesn't backscale to Mario without amps, she's like a straight up stomp above him.

As for some of these feats, they just don't much atm without a calc, "I'll destroy the world" doesn't mean shit if it's overtime, and if it's razing it (which it almost always is and in a few of these cases, is explicitly that) it basically by proxy isn't tier 5.

That being said,

Snow King's planetary ice age

If literal, it's a decent feat yeah PC being slow af atm tho so vid won't load I'll just take your word for it.

Lucien's world-devastating power

Falls under the whole overtime planet razing stuff. More just support for tier 6 at best.

Genie creates a planet

this was cool till Wario stood on it

Feat 5 - King K. Rool and the Banandium

Same shit, overtime, not total planet bust type stuff, more transmutation hax than actual AP too.
That being said I straight up have a ******* 6-B minimum, low tier 5 calc for that root shit somewhere, can't really be assed to dig through 3000 files atm but, the root is a solid upgrade for everyone no matter what.

Bowser on an exploding planet

That planet isn't planet sized, ISL would nuke it too down to tier 6, maybe 7 even if it was.
That being said, that isn't even a tier 5 feat, that's a tier 3/2 feat, that explosion created a supermassive universe destroying black hole. IF he survived it, that's way tf beyond tier 5 like it is't even comparable.
i thought it killed him tho.

Cackletta's Black Holes

If we accept them as actual black holes, yeah sure add it to the pile you're tyring to make.

Peach's Castle's Black Hole

As before, if we accept it as a legit black hole, I don't have much to add.

Bowser's Black Hole in MP9

Tbf this one is probably actually intended to be a planetary feat so sure.

Giant Fan

ISL drops it a **** ton to tier 6. Technically a tier 5 ED feat but scaling wise it's more tier 6. Though a simple statement like "stronger than every [whatever that item is]!" would solve that from the big bad or whatever.

Essentially, black hole feats fine given I don't feel like arguing validity of them atm (the MP9 one def feels legit tho), the fan is fine if you find a scaling statement (should be fine), I swear ong Shadow Queen is like 5-C but mfs don't exactly scale to her so I wouldn't factor her in here, the galaxy feat technically speaking blows tier 5 completely out of the water so it's not actually useful here. Ban root might be tier 5 support but it's def an upgrade to 6-B. I'll just assume the ice feat is fine give I can't check it atm.
The others I'd ignore, they aren't tier 5.

So basically you got 3 tier 5 black hole feats, Dark Koops feat (tho it's not exactly his normal strength, downscales exist ig), 1 lower tier 5 feat with ice stuff, a tier 5 character who stomps the main cast without amps (I'm not saying she stops tier 5 btw, if you manage to get tier 5, she'd just upscale higher, but using her own tier 5 bit feats doesn't work as support for the cast she murks).
Do with that what you will I'm a tad busy atm, but the question is basically if you think black hole feats + 1 other vague feat is enough, as the existence of that consistency effects the validity of the Dark downscale. But you do need calcs for all of the stuff that don't got one yet either way.

 

[Galactidot]

It's not a problem, I think it was said fairly lightheardely.

Thanks honestly cuh

 

[JPTheGamer]

Black Holes need to be proven to be real based on fairly stringent standards. None of these are.
The actual conclusion here is that just about everything in this post is not a real feat. I would emphasize to anyone reading this thread that quality does in no way strengthen an argument. Almost all of these "feats" are unquestionably wrong, and while it's easy to get fooled by the sheer amount posted into thinking that they must be consistent, this was no doubt purposefully done to obfuscate the fact that they don't hold water even to superficial scrutiny. I say purposefully because Omnificience has been in the past repeatedly informed of our black hole standards and very clearly deliberately chose to ignore them to bloat his CRT with more apparent feats.

Okay...

One, I've listed several ways to prove that these are black holes; this includes using scientific research as well as the standards for determining how black holes work on this wiki. Scientific studies show black holes can have color, they dissipate over time, and there's no required size for them; this is how they realistically behave, as the section says. The game guides for both Bowser's Inside Story and Superstar Saga LITERALLY state they are black holes, and the fact that they are pulling characters in SHOULD denote they have an appropriate gravitational pull; these are requirements listed by the recognizing black holes section. Therefore, they should be black holes.

And two, I've calculated the exploding planet feat before using the planet curvature scaling, but got nothing except Tier 9 results. And I have looked EVERYWHERE for Bowser on the planet in this frame onwards and couldn't find him. That makes very little sense.

 

[Galactidot]

Okay...

One, I've listed several ways to prove that these are black holes; this includes using scientific research as well as the standards for determining how black holes work on this wiki. Scientific studies show black holes can have color, they dissipate over time, and there's no required size for them. The game guides for both Bowser's Inside Story and Superstar Saga LITERALLY state they are black holes, and the fact that they are pulling characters in SHOULD denote they have an appropriate gravitational pull. Therefore, they should be black holes.

Two, I've calculated the exploding planet feat before using the planet curvature scaling, but got nothing except Tier 9 results. And I have looked EVERYWHERE for Bowser on the planet in this frame onwards and couldn't find him.

You know, I've always found it weird how we don't just trust the authors when they say something is a black hole, like honestly if they say it's a black hole, it's a damn black hole, no matter how cartoonish it is, it's their story, so what if they want to stylize it, we should legitimately just take it as stylization I'm not even joking.



And yet, this one DOES have all that arbitrary "prove the authors aren't lying" stuff, so what's the holdup?

 

[Chariot190]

Nah bruh, just accept the calcs for ONCE, what did Mario do to bro

Release the same game 5 times including within like a month of each other that one time.

You know, I've always found it weird how we don't just trust the authors when they say something is a black hole, like honestly if they say it's a black hole, it's a damn black hole, no matter how cartoonish it is, it's their story, so what if they want to stylize it, we should legitimately just take it as stylization I'm not even joking.

Because if they don't understand what a black hole actually is, we can't exactly calc it as one.
Like you can call a cat a dog, but that doesn't change how it functions. If it doesn't behave like one and follow all the lil rules, we can't use said rules in the first place to get a yield for it, at that point yeah they can call it a black hole, but really it's just a giant sucky thing. Same goes for everything, it isn't just black holes, which is why we have lightbeam rules too for example.

Like that's the big thing, things still have to follow physics to some degree because we use those very physics to try to define it, if they break away we can't quantify it.

 

[Armorchompy]

One, I've listed several ways to prove that these are black holes; this includes using scientific research as well as the standards for determining how black holes work on this wiki. Scientific studies show black holes can have color, they dissipate over time, and there's no required size for them.

Surely you are not arguing that this is a realistic depiction of black holes because they "have color" and "have size". That's not a bar for realism being met, that's literally just them EXISTING.

The game guides for both Bowser's Inside Story and Superstar Saga LITERALLY state they are black holes, and the fact that

That is not evidence that they're realistically portrayed.

they are pulling characters in SHOULD denote they have an appropriate gravitational pull

It denotes the very opposite. The appropriate gravitational pull of a black hole doesn't just politely suck in a few nearby objects, it's so intense it literally breaks apart space and time while it grows at massive speed pulling everything towards and ripping apart its surroundings and then spitting out massive amounts of radiation. The way Mario black holes behave is extremely unrealistic.

Some of these additionally have extra problems. The Cackletta black holes are flat, 2d, which black holes obviously aren't. And the BiS one gets pushed away by energy rather than absorbing it, a physical impossibility.

Oh and regarding the Mario Party 9 BH... you claim that Bowser created it but you don't actually post any evidence that he did.

 

[Armorchompy]

You know, I've always found it weird how we don't just trust the authors when they say something is a black hole, like honestly if they say it's a black hole, it's a damn black hole, no matter how cartoonish it is, it's their story, so what if they want to stylize it, we should legitimately just take it as stylization I'm not even joking.

They can say it's a black hole, sure. The issue is in understanding what they actually mean by black hole - most authors won't give a shit about how one would realistically work provided they even know, and black hole tiering is based on it being portrayed fairly realistically. To make a comparison, imagine there's a cartoonishly depicted nuke in a game, but when it explodes it only makes a tiny blast that doesn't destroy anything. Sure, it's a nuke... but the actual tier 7 part of it just isn't there.

But if you want to take things at face value I can start asking how come Mario keeps getting hurt by tier 8 and 9 stuff - I don't think the authors are lying about that either

 

[Eseseso]

OP should probably put Armor in the disagreement section

 

[Galactidot]

They can say it's a black hole, sure. The issue is in understanding what they actually mean by black hole - most authors won't give a shit about how one would realistically work provided they even know, and black hole tiering is based on it being portrayed fairly realistically. To make a comparison, imagine there's a cartoonishly depicted nuke in a game, but when it explodes it only makes a tiny blast that doesn't destroy anything. Sure, it's a nuke... but the actual tier 7 part of it just isn't there.

But if you want to take things at face value I can start asking how come Mario keeps getting hurt by tier 8 and 9 stuff - I don't think the authors are lying about that either

Good point honestly...

 

[JPTheGamer]

Surely you are not arguing that this is a realistic depiction of black holes because they "have color" and "have size". That's not a bar for realism being met, that's literally just them EXISTING.
That is not evidence that they're realistically portrayed.

They can say it's a black hole, sure. The issue is in understanding what they actually mean by black hole - most authors won't give a shit about how one would realistically work provided they even know, and black hole tiering is based on it being portrayed fairly realistically. To make a comparison, imagine there's a cartoonishly depicted nuke in a game, but when it explodes it only makes a tiny blast that doesn't destroy anything. Sure, it's a nuke... but the actual tier 7 part of it just isn't there.

But if you want to take things at face value I can start asking how come Mario keeps getting hurt by tier 8 and 9 stuff - I don't think the authors are lying about that either

Black holes in fiction are not required to follow real astrophysics; that applies too strictly to physical cosmology. If realism were required, then black holes and likely 90% of fictional feats in verses like Marvel, DC, and Kirby would be invalid; fiction usually scales them down so they can function as gratifying objects. Real black holes have variable size, visibility, and gravitational intensity, which the ones I calculated have demonstrated. Guidebooks calling them black holes matter in fiction, or else we'd have to reject the ones that occur in other franchises. Sure, the black holes in the Super Mario Bros aren't massive; they're more micro-sized, but even so, micro black holes don't tear space and time apart and usually behave more like gravity wells.

 

[Armorchompy]

"In all cases, any given black hole must still have to behave realistically, of course."

These don't behave realistically, and thus they are not acceptable based on our standards. You do not have the freedom to argue that an unrealistic black hole can still be used. If you disagree go make a staff thread.

 

[JPTheGamer]

"In all cases, any given black hole must still have to behave realistically, of course."

Realistically in the scientific sense, not the most literal. Not every black hole is gonna rip apart space on a planetary or universal scale; that isn't how all black holes in fiction or reality work.