Asriel vs Kratos (0-4-10)

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Info and concepts are both different; surviving without a concept doesn't just mean you can survive without info as both work differently from one another

okay, Kratos has his info nuked. Now what? CM, Mind, Memory, Direction, Luck still left alive. Now what?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

okay, Kratos has his info nuked. Now what? CM, Mind, Memory, Direction, Luck still left alive. Now what?

now he dies or at best gets incapped because he has no fundamental building blocks to exist upon or work with

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

now he dies or at best gets incapped because he has no fundamental building blocks to exist upon or work with

wtf lmfao!!

 

[Qurbonboev]

wtf lmfao!!

Information is his foundational block unless proven otherwise, and he can't live without it unless proven otherwise.
If you have arguments for both points above, just give it

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Information is his foundational block unless proven otherwise, and he can't live without it unless proven otherwise.
If you have arguments for both points above, just give it

Proof Info is fundamental building blocks of Concept, Mind, Memory, Luck, Direction in GoW?

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Proof Info is fundamental building blocks of Concept, Mind, Memory, Luck, Direction in GoW?

we don't really need too? Again none of the metaphysical concepts take precidence over the other nor can they dictate the other unless something inverse says otherwise

if none of those things have an effect on info then there is zero reason to assume they can allow kratos to resist info EE

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

if none of those things have an effect on info then there is zero reason to assume they can allow kratos to resist info EE

I already steelmanned it. You are asking resistance, I am asking survival after hax nuke.

I am asking how Kratos dies after his info nuke when his other 4-5 components are still alive?

 

[Planck69]

you said info was tied to matter

The distinction is tied to whatever part of reality they govern and for that to work on info you would need the reality it governs to encompass fundamental info

Well, yes. Is there any information in Undertale that has information as something that exists independent of the Game World? If not then it is on par with Type 2 conceptual manipulation in terms of actual showcase. Fundamental to all of reality, but ultimately tied to it.

if I can survive without food does that now mean I can survive without air?

Info and concepts are both different; surviving without a concept doesn't just mean you can survive without info as both work differently from one another

I could go into the fact that every single example of it on the page is just Reality Warping with video game/computer flavor text. But I won't and I'll just ask; if you yourself acknowledge that information and concepts are equivalent, and not only are there characters who survived without parts of it like Atlas and Brok, but Kratos could survive without it, what exactly does him losing a fundamental aspect that never comes up in the setting do to the others?

He loses his information, fine. But Type 1 concepts are independent of reality. Why would losing one, chain reaction into losing the other?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Arright, the thing is this.

If in GoW souls are directly Type 1 Concepts in terms of AE 1, then Asriel can't do anything.

If not, then this entire discussion is nonsense.

 

[Planck69]

Arright, the thing is this.

If in GoW souls are directly Type 1 Concepts in terms of AE 1, then Asriel can't do anything.

If not, then this entire discussion is nonsense.

They are Type 1 concepts.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Well, yes. Is there any information in Undertale that has information as something that exists independent of the Game World? If not then it is on par with Type 2 conceptual manipulation in terms of actual showcase. Fundamental to all of reality, but ultimately tied to it.

But at the same time we'd have to ask if GoWs reality encompassess info, if it dosen't encompass info then it being a part of the game world would ultimately not matter

I could go into the fact that every single example of it on the page is just Reality Warping with video game/computer flavor text. But I won't and I'll just ask; if you yourself acknowledge that information and concepts are equivalent,

Equivalent in the sense that they both can't interact with each other under normal circumstances yes

and not only are there characters who survived without parts of it like Atlas and Brok, but Kratos could survive without it, what exactly does him losing a fundamental aspect that never comes up in the setting do to the others?

it makes them subject to whatever erasing info in UT does to ppl since their reality doesn't encompass info

He loses his information, fine. But Type 1 concepts are independent of reality. Why would losing one, chain reaction into losing the other?

If kratos gets erased on an informational level that means he dosen't exist on an informational level

if he dosen't exist on an informational level, he can't do anything, regardless of whether his type one concept is independent it would basically be like getting hit by powernull

I already steelmanned it. You are asking resistance, I am asking survival after hax nuke.

I am asking how Kratos dies after his info nuke when his other 4-5 components are still alive?

because he now doesn't exist on an informational level and therefore can't do anything without evidence suggesting he can still act without information thats why I said at best he gets incapped

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

This is just entering fanfiction territory straight up.

 

[Planck69]

But at the same time we'd have to ask if GoWs reality encompassess info, if it dosen't encompass info then it being a part of the game world would ultimately not matter

Equivalent in the sense that they both can't interact with each other under normal circumstances yes

it makes them subject to whatever erasing info in UT does to ppl since their reality doesn't encompass info

If kratos gets erased on an informational level that means he dosen't exist on an informational level

if he dosen't exist on an informational level, he can't do anything, regardless of whether his type one concept is independent it would basically be like getting hit by powernull

because he now doesn't exist on an informational level and therefore can't do anything without evidence suggesting he can still act without information thats why I said at best he gets incapped

A lot of this is based on absolutely nothing though. Can you prove anything of what you said? I can prove that Kratos can exist with some of his aspects destroyed. All of this is hanging onto an equalization of aspects that may not even be the case.

And again, even diamondmanning, you have yet to respond to Kratos power nulling/mind nuking/directly stripping Asriel of his souls via the soul of Hades when the power gap is sensed.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

A lot of this is based on absolutely nothing though. Can you prove anything of what you said?

What, that files or whatever in UT encompass a character and the game world?

I can prove that Kratos can exist with some of his aspects destroyed.

can you prove that he can act without information?

All of this is hanging onto an equalization of aspects that may not even be the case.

honestly i'm not sure if equalizing or unequalizing aspects would do anything since we have no idea how info is treated in GoW

And again, even diamondmanning, you have yet to respond to Kratos power nulling/mind nuking/directly stripping Asriel of his souls via the soul of Hades when the power gap is sensed.

I asked how it works and how fast it is

How fast is the power null? and how does it work?

 

[Planck69]

What that files or whatever in UT encompass a character?

can you prove that he can act without information?

honestly i'm not sure if equalizing or unequalizing aspects would do anything since we have no idea how info is treated in GoW

I asked how it works and how fast it is

It's the same as Ares, who just takes away his magic psychically, alongside his weapons. He also has Athena's and Zeus's magics, but those two were contact and projectile based. Basically, every version there is.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Honestly votes should be reset after these new arguements. Let people judge again

 

[Qurbonboev]

A lot of this is based on absolutely nothing though. Can you prove anything of what you said? I can prove that Kratos can exist with some of his aspects destroyed.

"Character A can exists with aspects A, B, C destroyed. This means that he can live after getting aspect Y destroyed"
Textbook NLF

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

"Character A can exists with aspects A, B, C destroyed. This means that he can live after getting aspect Y destroyed"
Textbook NLF

Strawman. Read the arguements again. That wasn't the logic Planck and I used.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

If anything you guys are fanfictioning and nlfing

 

[Planck69]

"Character A can exists with aspects A, B, C destroyed. This means that he can live after getting aspect Y destroyed"
Textbook NLF

Not really. By the page itself, this aspect is at most on the same level as the others. If Kratos can live with fundamental aspects of himself destroyed, then another isn't any more or less fundamental that this would change.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

It's the same as Ares, who just takes away his magic psychically, alongside his weapons.

By "psychically" are you implying he uses thoughts to nullify energy (magic) and remove weaponry?

He also has Athena's and Zeus's magics, but those two were contact and projectile based. Basically, every version there is.

For asriel his info EE scales to charas who does this through funny slashing attack (basically in asriels case you can imagine an arm movement or something simmilar)

There is also omega flowey but since the EE is apparently separate from his info manip i'm not sure if thats usable (it is thought based tho)

 

[Planck69]

Ngl, I'd have preferred Frisk vs Atreus.

 

[Planck69]

By "psychically" are you implying he uses thoughts to nullify energy (magic) and remove weaponry?

Yeah.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I have still yet to learn how Kratos dies if his (Form, mind, direction, luck) is still alive after his info is nuked.

This steelmanning UT chara can't interact with CM1 soul and Hope Invul is still looking down on everything with disappointment.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Yeah.

I have another question then

Since UT also has magic are we equating the two?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Since UT also has magic are we equating the two?

Magic in UT is nowhere close to be some fundamental thing shaping reality, it's just a non-physical thing that makes up monsters' bodies lol.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

I have still yet to learn how Kratos dies if his (Form, mind, direction, luck) is still alive after his info is nuked.

This steelmanning UT chara can't interact with CM1 soul and Hope Invul is still looking down on everything with disappointment.

The reason why kratos would lose if he gets hit by info EE is due to the fact that if he gets his information wiped then he no longer exists on an informational level

even if you wanted to say his fundamental aspects wouldn't be destroyed, he still wouldn't be able to manipulate them anymore unless you can prove he can act without information

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Magic in UT is nowhere close to be some fundamental thing shaping reality, it's just a non-physical thing that makes up monsters' bodies lol.

Yeah ik thats why I'm asking

Cause like, isn't DT not reliant on magic? (I'm basically asking how we would treat magic in Gow to UT)

 

[Delusionaltx2]

To build upon my question

Are we assuming magic in Gow would be treated in UT as this hidden form of energy that dictates stuff the same way it does to other Gow characters? or is it something else

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

The reason why kratos would lose if he gets hit by info EE is due to the fact that if he gets his information wiped then he no longer exists on an informational level

even if you wanted to say his fundamental aspects wouldn't be destroyed, he still wouldn't be able to manipulate them anymore unless you can prove he can act without information

You made the positive claim, you need to prove it. Not me. You cannot reverse the burden of proof. That's bad manners.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

You made the positive claim, you need to prove it. Not me. You cannot reverse the burden of proof. That's bad manners.

Sorry but you're the one arguing for kratos being able to exist and act without information, so the burden of proof would actually be on you to prove he can, as that's your claim not mine

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Sorry but you're the one arguing for kratos being able to exist and act without information, so the burden of proof would actually be on you to prove he can, as that's your claim not mine

But he already does tho. Plenty of proof has been given. If those 4 aspects are still alive, how is he dead? I don't need to prove anything, you do. I was the one who asked the genuine question in the first place.
You just made assumptions about how info worked and went "trust me bro". That is after I steelmanned 2 points btw.

Arright, the thing is this.

If in GoW souls are directly Type 1 Concepts in terms of AE 1, then Asriel can't do anything.

If not, then this entire discussion is nonsense.

They are Type 1 concepts.

This is still unaddressed.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

But he already does tho. Plenty of proof has been given. If those 4 aspects are still alive, how is he dead?

because he dosen't exist on an informational level and therefore gets incapped

I don't need to prove anything, you do. I was the one who asked the genuine question in the first place.

you're literally presupposing that he can still fight after getting erased on an informational level therefore you would have to prove he can actually do stuff without any building blocks to work with

You just made assumptions about how info worked and went "trust me bro". That is after I steelmanned 2 points btw.

I literally quoted the wiki page

This is still unaddressed.

Info and concepts are both different; surviving without a concept doesn't just mean you can survive without info as both work differently from one another

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

you're literally presupposing that he can still fight after getting erased on an informational level therefore you would have to prove he can actually do stuff without any building blocks to work with

Info is not the building blocks of (Form, Mind, Luck, Direction). Proof that info builds CM1? those 4 aspects I mentioned make up a soul in GoW unless you can prove Info builds those stuff, destroying it won't affect them and his Soul remains intact.

because he dosen't exist on an informational level and there gets incapped

You need to prove that buddy.

Info and concepts are both different; surviving without a concept doesn't just mean you can survive without info as both work differently from one another.

UT characters can't even interact with CM1 AE1 one lmao.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Info and concepts are both different; surviving without a concept doesn't just mean you can survive without info as both work differently from one another

The argument here is Kratos existing directly as a CM 1 abstraction, which Asriel can't interact with.

 

[Delusionaltx2]

Info is not the building blocks of (Form, Mind, Luck, Direction). Proof that info builds CM1?

we don't need too since kratos by wiki standards still has info the only difference would be that it isn't tied to those thingd

those 4 aspects I mentioned make up a soul in GoW unless you can prove Info builds those stuff, destroying it won't affect them and his Soul remains intact.

and now kratos is NEP on an info level and needs evidence suggesting he can still act like that

You need to prove that buddy.

No you do

UT characters can't even interact with CM1 AE1 one lmao.

And GoW characters can't handle info therefore both have wincons

 

[Delusionaltx2]

The argument here is Kratos existing directly as a CM 1 abstraction, which Asriel can't interact with.

yeah but CM1 relies on stuff that governs his reality

if he's a CM1 abstraction but also none existent on an informational level (something his reality does not govern) and hasen't been shown to still act while being none existent on an informational level then how would he be able to still do anything

at that point he exists as CM1 but gets incapped

 

[KLOL506]

where the heck did NEP come from

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

yeah but CM1 relies on stuff that governs his reality

if he's a CM1 abstraction but also none existent on an informational level (something his reality does not govern) and hasen't been shown to still act while being none existent on an informational level then how would he be able to still do anything

at that point he exists as CM1 but gets incapped

You missed his point completely, uh Delusional (no pun intended, maybe jk). Souls are AE1. UT chars need feats of interacting with that.

 

[StrymULTRA]

if he's a CM1 abstraction but also none existent on an informational level (something his reality does not govern) and hasen't been shown to still act while being none existent on an informational level then how would he be able to still do anything

Are you saying that Asriel can nuke Type 1 concepts anyway because they still have information to rely on?