(Accepted) Deltarune: Intangibility, Physiology and more

[Imaginym]

We already discussed resistances here and reached conclusions that "We need to be sure what material they consists off to give it".
Considering that there is an giant variation in biological manipulation (and similar) abilities, I think it's better to just write concisevly, giving them resistances and noting whether they consists of organic materials or no, like this:
Ralsei:
Resistances to:
Biological manipulation, Bone manipulation, poison, diseases (Is made of fluff, organic material)
It should be obvious that Ralsei is immune to something like Makima biohax(which causes internal bleeding), but not types of biohax where user have full control of any organic molecules.

Sounds reasonable.
If others are okay with it, I'm okay with it.

So, what is your opinion on other parts?

Such as?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Sounds reasonable.
If others are okay with it, I'm okay with it.

Such as?

Besides physiology stuff(already discussed) and Intangible attacks(in hold for now), there is also stuff about attacks/techniques, multipliers(they are unquantifiable, so previous objections to them don't apply), some new abilities.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Snip

Bump, and your opinion on remaining parts?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Bump

 

[Qurbonboev]

Snip

Bump, I guess

 

[Imaginym]

Besides physiology stuff(already discussed) and Intangible attacks(in hold for now), there is also stuff about attacks/techniques,

Notables Attacks/Techniques: Kris:

• Shield: Kris, by using their shield perfectly, can block intangible projectiles/bullets that can phase through their body and can push their enemies away.
• HoldBreath: Kris held their breath, their heartbeat quickened and the SOUL now moves faster, and it accelerates further in extreme situations like in the final attack of the Knight.
• ScaredyCat: Kris can greatly increase the speed of their SOUL for one turn but their defense decreases too.

Presuming you mean those (Besides the intangibility stuff that's to be discussed further at a later point.)....
HoldBreath's description seems weird. The grammar as is suggests it's past tense. Also, it says "further in extreme situations", but AFAIK, this buff only applies during the battle with The Roaring Knight.
I'm uncertain ScaredyCat can be described as unconditional. Besides that it's only available on re-fights against Jackenstein (Such as if one has lost, or it's another playthrough.), it might also just be conditional because of Kris being scared. You know, on top of all the prophecy stuff, there's a dark, jumpscaring chasing head acting scary, even if it does prove comedic later.
Otherwise, seems fine.

multipliers(they are unquantifiable, so previous objections to them don't apply)

Not that I doubt this, but objections such as which, if I may ask, please? (In part because I'm personally of the opinion the Knight has a 5x multiplier, if any multiplier is to be specified, given the visible HP bar, & in-game multipliers.)

Attack Potency: Multi-City Block level+ with Rude/Red Buster and Morale Boost (With Rude/Red Buster. Deals far more damage than her standard attacks. Forced Queen and Spamton NEO to retreat using a Rude Buster. With Morale Boost, Kris can boost Susie's morale by commenting that she is really dangerous and strong, increasing her ATK considerably, something she can likely achieve on her own by motivating herself.

Morale Boost does seem valid, but I'm skeptic that motivating one's self isn't just ceasing holding back. I guess it's fine?

Rage Power (After finishing the Sword Route and obtaining the Shadow Mantle, Kris reveals a hidden strength that they use against Tenna for revealing at least some information, dealing more damage than Susie's Rude Buster, but dealing significantly less damage than their allies if quest isn't completed. Kris usually deal noticeably less damage to The Roaring Knight than Susie or Ralsei, but when the two are swooned Kris starts dealing more damage than Susie.

Attack Potency: Multi-City Block level+ with Rage Power (After finishing the Sword Route and obtaining the Shadow Mantle, Kris reveals a hidden strength that they use against Tenna for revealing at least some information, dealing more damage than Susie's Rude Buster. Kris usually deal noticeably less damage to The Roaring Knight than Susie or Ralsei, but when the two are swooned Kris starts dealing more damage than Susie.

Seems good.
It may also be notable that a solo Kris can trigger The Roaring Knight's flinch animation & pain vocalization; Any damage above 100 triggers this, but it's usually hard to notice, especially with Rude Buster, because of other SFX & animation present.


You can see it at 3:16 in that video. The Knight's form distorts & it utters a sound, unlike when hit for less than 100.

CH4: higher with HoldBreath, far higher with ScaredyCat ( Can greatly increase the speed of their SOUL for one turn but their defense decreases too)

Seems good.

• Shield Ax: Susie can block projectiles/bullets and intangible attacks that can phase through her body with her axe. By doing so, she also gains some TP. Can take much more damage than Susie herself can, as evidenced by it not breaking from blocking numerous Gerson projectiles.
• Morale Boost: Susie can massively increase her ATK just by boosting her morale.
• Statistics Amplification (When her morale is boosted her strength is massively increased)

Besides the intangibility stuff that's to be discussed further at a later point, seems good.

, some new abilities.

-Miscellaneous staff-​

Everyone that scales to Titan should upscale from Tenna feat in LS. This justification was already accepted and is currently used for Knight, Titan and Titanspawns, and should be extended to chapter 4 Gang and Gerson.

Add in AP justifications for Knight that it can knock out(which is essentially oneshot) Susie in chapter 4, even with shadow mantle equipped.

Noelle skill: Learns Dark World combat after 1 fight. She participates in getting no trophy achievement (since she fights together with Kris), which requires from her to get hit at most several times during battles together with Kris.

Extrasensory Perception (Spamton instantly senses that Kris is a Lightner, likely due to them having a SOUL. Most likely sensed him being under control of different entity(Player). Damage and behaviour of Lancer and Gerson attacks depends off Susie HP health)

Seems like abilities for Spamton, since, so far, Spamton is the only Darkner to bring up the "heart-shaped object", IIRC. Other Darkners have attacked it on the overworld, so presumably they can perceive it? Maybe they were just aiming for Kris? Either way, Spamton sensing it seems reasonable.
But if it's what they aim for, then consider that Susie seems like she was going to bring it up; That would suggest it's unusual or unfamiliar to Lightners, suggesting it's not something everyone has. If a SOUL isn't typically present in Lightners, what do Darkners aim at for other characters??

Lancer & Getson doing different attacks depending on Susie's HP could just be skill like perceiving battle damage or signs of stamina depletion, or it could be Game Mechanics.

Enhanced Senses (Hearing; Darkners can find and fight the Delta Warriors in darkness, likely using sounds of their footsteps)

....I'm skeptical of this.
The first scan shows Jackenstein saying "...LAIGHT ... WHO DAIRE BRING LAIGHT HEAR".

Each character having their own light could just be a gameplay convenience; Let player see where the party members are in an otherwise ominously dark area, but Jackenstein's dialogue is specifically calling it out as a presence & motive; For some reason, The Delta Warriors have light in their area, in that area. Maybe, contrary to IRL, where darkness is the absence of light, sufficient darkness can remove light??

Either way, it seems evident that in the first scan Jackenstein is reacting to them visually, via the light they give off. Though, considering it's in a very dark area, & they're VERY far away (They slide down huge bookshelves multiple times & walk a fair distance to reach Jackenstein.), I'd argue it's a case for Jackenstein having Enhanced Senses, vision, even if we assume Jackenstein can see using the big eyes of the pumpkin head Darkner it wears over his own relatively tiny real head & eyes, rather than something like a huge pumpkin-as-mask hindering its vision.

For the second scan, maybe? But besides that they're very close (A few meters away.) from the source of the sounds (bell & footsteps.)

At 2:51:10 The Organikk is unresponsive when the sound waves pass through it, but when Kris gets close enough, it approaches.

That said, the Darkners that appear in this battle have reason to be considered receptive to sound.
Organikk has a set of pipes as a mask. (Its real face can be seen in its hurt sprite, apparnetly.)

• Steel clangs in a song. [Encounter with Winglade]
• Smells like brass and satin. [Neutral, 3% chance[3]]

Though, FWIW, Organikk itself has an evident basis for echolocation:

• Organikk divinates through echolocation. [Neutral]

Anyway, point being, something with a metal set of pipes instruments over its face would probably notice sound.

• A metal mage. When out of tune, she's unpredictabell. [Check]
• Wicabel clangs in your way! [Encounter]
• Wicabel spins like a musicbox ballerina. [Neutral]
• Smells like damp wood and rust. [Neutral, 3% chance[5]]

Wicabell also has reason to be receptive to sound, being that it's apparently made of (rusty?) metal & apparently damp wood? (Partially Inorganic. Fun.)
It's also either or maybe both of a bell &/or a musicbox ballerina, the former of which would naturally be sound receptive, I'd presume.

Non-Physical Interaction (Should be similar to Ralsei, who can damage beings like Titan Spawns, Guei, and Mizzles.)

Adding it would also would make this ability as something he had since 1 chapter(same for Kris and Susie).

Non-Physical Interaction (Should be similar to Kris and Susie, who can damage beings like Titan Spawns, Guei, and Mizzles)
I think this is fine, since I think it's separate from the yet-to-be-discussed Intangible Attacks matter, IIRC.

For Lightners:

Extrasensory Perception (Susie and Knight knocks us out instead of killing, thus should be aware of amount of SOUL health)

Susie in Chapter 4 seems unfamiliar with the SOUL, so her being familiar with the amount of SOUL health is a bit weird. I'd presume it's skill, in knowing how much force to knock someone out, &/or being able to gauge stamina, battle damage, etc.
The Knight could be the same, but unlike Susie, we don't have reason to believe it is unfamiliar with the SOUL, & we know it can hold back. Also, there's evidence indicating The Knight & Kris have some sort of deal, so it may know of the SOUL as a result of that, but that's not 100% confirmed.
I'd say it's Likely for the Knight, but it seems more shakey for Susie.

Physiology page is here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:LittleGuy99/Darkner_Physiology

There are some problems with it though. Inorganic physiology type 1 (and associated with it abilities) were accepted before by staff, reason being that they are objects that came to life, but some of them are made of organic materials(like Card Kingdom darkners). Additionally giving them self sustenance type 1 and 2 seems unwarranted, considering we have things like cooking mini gamewhere we feed visitors, or Lancer wanting to eat fruits. Inorganic Physiology most likely should be granted on case-by-case basis. But resistance to blood, poison, and diseases manipulation should be kept for all of them. Paper objects are counted as organic materials unlike metal materials, but they are not subject to conventional diseases

Seems generally reasonable.

• Non-Physical Interaction: Should be similar to Ralsei, who can damage beings like Titan Spawns, Guei, and Mizzle.

Probably reasonable. My only concern about this is Ralsei is from a "pure" Dark Fountain, but we don't yet know the ramifications of that, so I'd say at worst this is Likely, but it could probably be fine as is, since we don't know what it means to be the same kind of Darkner as one born of a "pure" Dark Fountain or not.

Immunity to:

• SOUL Manipulation: Unlike Lightners, who are proven to possess SOULs,

Supposing we do consider Guei as a spirit, it'd be exempt from this immunity.

(Also, I typed a bunch of stuff beforfe remembering the books exist. Argh.)

Spoiler: What I typed

Similar issues to above.

Heck, the SOUL is able to carry its voice to Noelle, right? She thought it was Kris's voice, despite that when describing it (After having become convinced what she experienced was a dream.), Kris's sounded like it was on speaker, & even on the Weird Route, she thinks it's Kris's voice, even when they're down. Perhaps because Trance? (Though we can only infer what Trance is supposed to do so far.)
The point is, the SOUL facilitates delivering a voice distinct from one's own, that differs slightly.
If all Lightners had SOULs, they might not so readily mistake the voice for Kris's, or might at least be suspicious when Kris says OoC things.
Admittedly, Noelle is a friend of Kris's since childhood, with their families having known & interacted for a long time.

Berdly & Susie interact with Kris in the DW, though Berdly & Kris likely almost never interact at all, but Berdly & Kris likely at least know each other from sound.
Susie may not have known Kris for very long at all.

But none of the other Lightners notice the different voice, nor suspect something's off. & if Susie's reactions are indeed indicating a SOUL isn't something familiar to Lightners, then they may not perceive it in battle, either.

The notion that Lightners other than Kris have a SOUL is questionable to me. At best, I'd call this a Likely/Possibly.

Considering the books, it seems fine, although, personally, I'd be surprised if Kris's SOUL type or circumstances are typical for a Lightner.

Other parts of above for context:
Darkners are merely objects brought to life by Dark Fountains. These objects range from cards, television channels to computers and apps, which should not possess SOULs. It is implied that the Lightners' SOULs are the source of their will, the will and determination they use to create Dark Fountains, something the Darkners lack. Lightners like Kris still retain some will even without their SOUL.

Some theories posit that Kris has more than one SOUL, or just acts like that (Given how they've been seen to move normally without the SOUL at other times, seemingly when they don't think they're being watched) to seem cool/intimidating/mysterious, which might be notable for the last sentence, but it's kind of insubstantiated so far.



From reading the two blogs, that's the stuff that seemed like it should be addressed.

I hope I didn't miss anything. Apologies if I did. Apologies for how long between replies also.

Also, I hope this is appreciable, interesting &/or helpful.

 

[Qurbonboev]

HoldBreath's description seems weird. The grammar as is suggests it's past tense. Also, it says "further in extreme situations", but AFAIK, this buff only applies during the battle with The Roaring Knight.
I'm uncertain ScaredyCat can be described as unconditional. Besides that it's only available on re-fights against Jackenstein (Such as if one has lost, or it's another playthrough.), it might also just be conditional because of Kris being scared. You know, on top of all the prophecy stuff, there's a dark, jumpscaring chasing head acting scary, even if it does prove comedic later.

HoldBreath description would be improved. We do consider ACTs and abilities that appear only one time as something that Gang can use every time, unless specificied otherwise.
"Further in extreme situations" refers to the fact that during final Knight attack(which is full screen attack) SOUL attack moves a bit faster.
"Because of Kris being scared". Kris doesn't even flinch from Titan fear hax, I don't think they were especially scared during this fight.

Not that I doubt this, but objections such as which, if I may ask, please?

In previous CRT we had HoldBreath as 25% multiplier to speed(because of how it's described in code). Turns out we can't say that unless it's stated in the game itself(it's site standarts towards game multipliers). So we dropped exact numbers.

You can see it at 3:16 in that video. The Knight's form distorts & it utters a sound, unlike when hit for less than 100.

Additional evidence of power boost being geniune.

Seems like abilities for Spamton, since, so far, Spamton is the only Darkner to bring up the "heart-shaped object", IIRC

Most of Darkners should be able to recognise that Kris and Susie are Lightners, and are heroes of prophecy. Otherwise there is no reason to why they randomly start attacking us. And easiest way they could recognise Lightners is by their Soul. How otherwise for example Queen could know that Noelle and Berdly are Lightners. And there is no reason to think that Spamton is unusual in that aspect.

But if it's what they aim for, then consider that Susie seems like she was going to bring it up; That would suggest it's unusual or unfamiliar to Lightners, suggesting it's not something everyone has. If a SOUL isn't typically present in Lightners, what do Darkners aim at for other characters??

Wdym? If you referring to her being confused at sight of Soul, I don't think it's evidence of her lacking it. If I see something like heart flying from my friend chest, I would be geniunely confused and would ask: "Was this your heart?"
Library book clearly implies that all Lightners should have Soul. All Lightners can create Fountains due to having Soul that generates will/determination for them.

Lancer & Getson doing different attacks depending on Susie's HP could just be skill like perceiving battle damage or signs of stamina depletion, or it could be Game Mechanics.

Susie can come back from fight immediately after fight, so it's not just stamina depletion. And Gerson specifically knock us out before HP reaches zero. He wouldn't be able to recognise if he was going only by physical damage.

Each character having their own light could just be a gameplay convenience

We play as SOUL, that is source of LIGHT intense enough to burn Titans. It should be visible even in intense darkness.

Either way, it seems evident that in the first scan Jackenstein is reacting to them visually, via the light they give off.

Jackenstein reacts to light because light brings him pain. Likely if there was no light, he wouldn't care.

For the second scan, maybe? But besides that they're very close (A few meters away.) from the source of the sounds (bell & footsteps.

Of them reacting only when we are really close is enough to not consider it enhanced, I will drop it.

Susie in Chapter 4 seems unfamiliar with the SOUL, so her being familiar with the amount of SOUL health is a bit weird. I'd presume it's skill, in knowing how much force to knock someone out, &/or being able to gauge stamina, battle damage, etc.

Same as above. It's implied that she already knew that it's SOUL, but she genuinely confused for same reason for why I would be confused if I see someone's heart. To knock us she needs to precisely whittle our HP down to 1, visible battle damage won't tell it, and our stamina doesn't drop after knock outs. Mlst likely she just can just sense it.

Seems generally reasonable.

We already discussed this part and reached agreement about it.

Considering the books, it seems fine, although, personally, I'd be surprised if Kris's SOUL type or circumstances are typical for a Lightner

Both Library and Dark Fountains clearly indicate that all Lightners poccess Soul. Kris circumstances are obviously atypical, but their SOUL is still described as Human Soul, so.

Some theories posit that Kris has more than one SOUL, or just acts like that (Given how they've been seen to move normally without the SOUL at other times, seemingly when they don't think they're being watched) to seem cool/intimidating/mysterious, which might be notable for the last sentence, but it's kind of insubstantiated so far.

Kris having two souls is seemingly contradicted by phone dialogue, that says that they can't enter Dark Worlds without SOUL. Presumably DW would recognise them as objects. Since other Lightners don't have such problems, I would say that most likely Kris has only one SOUL, and it mostly shares similarities to other Lightners SOULs

Also, I hope this is appreciable, interesting &/or helpful.

Thanks for the input

 

[Imaginym]

HoldBreath description would be improved. We do consider ACTs and abilities that appear only one time as something that Gang can use every time, unless specificied otherwise.
"Further in extreme situations" refers to the fact that during final Knight attack(which is full screen attack) SOUL attack moves a bit faster.

Shrug. I guess so. Abilities that are still OoC to use are still abilities, I guess.

"Because of Kris being scared". Kris doesn't even flinch from Titan fear hax, I don't think they were especially scared during this fight.

Perhaps the SOUL is scared, as may be a common reaction among players.
Also, there's a case for Kris being scared against the Titan Spawn.

• You hear your heart beating in your ears. [Neutral]
• Smells like adrenaline. [Neutral, 4% chance[4]]

(Toby, what is with all these low percent flavour texts???)

Also:

• [ScaredyCat]
  • Your heart pumped nervously!
  • SPEED increased for 1 turn!
  • Everyone's DEFENSE down!
    • Scared! SPEED up, DEF down! [First repeat]

If Kris isn't scared when using ScaredyCat, then who's heart is pumping nervously & why?

In previous CRT we had HoldBreath as 25% multiplier to speed(because of how it's described in code). Turns out we can't say that unless it's stated in the game itself(it's site standarts towards game multipliers). So we dropped exact numbers.

Ahhh, good to know.

Most of Darkners should be able to recognise that Kris and Susie are Lightners, and are heroes of prophecy. Otherwise there is no reason to why they randomly start attacking us. And easiest way they could recognise Lightners is by their Soul. How otherwise for example Queen could know that Noelle and Berdly are Lightners. And there is no reason to think that Spamton is unusual in that aspect.

Odd notion, since many don't seem like they would know of the prophecy, let alone care. Why do K. Round, Maus, & Ribbick care about the prophecy enough to attack those involved in it?
Fair point about Queen, though, so, I guess.

Wdym? If you referring to her being confused at sight of Soul, I don't think it's evidence of her lacking it. If I see something like heart flying from my friend chest, I would be geniunely confused and would ask: "Was this your heart?"

I don't think that would be a question one would be likely to ask if having a SOUL was the norm; If it came out of them, evidently, it's theirs. What reason would Susie have to doubt that if Lightners having SOULs were the norm?

Library book clearly implies that all Lightners should have Soul. All Lightners can create Fountains due to having Soul that generates will/determination for them.

Yeah, I had forgotten about the books before typing a bunch of stuff, which I put in collapsible spoilers.

Susie can come back from fight immediately after fight, so it's not just stamina depletion. And Gerson specifically knock us out before HP reaches zero. He wouldn't be able to recognise if he was going only by physical damage.

Tentatively approved, then.

We play as SOUL, that is source of LIGHT intense enough to burn Titans. It should be visible even in intense darkness.

Yes?
But in the room where Jackenstein is met, before everything goes dark, Kris, Susie & Ralsei all have separate circles of light centered on themselves.
Ralsei isn't a lightner; Why would he have a SOUL?

Jackenstein reacts to light because light brings him pain. Likely if there was no light, he wouldn't care.

Light is also visible at a distance, especially in darkness, & the light emitted is quite far from Jackenstein.
Also, the pumpkin the SOUL shines its light on isn't Jackenstein, it's a thing that covers his head; After the battle, it can be found as a separate Darkner that can be talked to.
It is possible it pains Jackenstein as well, though said dialogue may also just be referential humour:

• The dialogue in Jackenstein's fight includes numerous refences to lines from Ganon in Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon that are known for their use in YouTube Poops.
  • The line "YOU DAIRE BRING LAIGHTS TO MY LAIRE!?" is an almost verbatim quote from Ganon in his pre-battle cutscene.
  • The line "NO!!! NOT THE LAIGHT!!! IT BURNS!!!" references Ganon's post-battle cutscene.

Jackenstein also dislikes light because of thinking himself scary.

Pre-Battle​

• ... LAIGHT...
• ... WHO DAIRE BRING LAIGHT HEAR...
• ... GO... BACK...
• ... YOU SUDN'T COME HERE...
• ... THIS ZOAN... IS FORBIDEN...
• ... CONTINUE AND YOU MAY FIND YOURSELF SPOOCKED IN THE DARK...

Post-Battle​

• THE LAIGHT... NOT THE LAIGHT!!!!
• NOOOOOOO!!!
• N... NO... DOAN'T LOOK... I'M... I'M...
• I'M TOO SCAIREY!!!

• ME NAME IS JACKENSTEIN.
• I WAS BULLYED, AND HAITED BY THE OTHERS, FROAM MY LARGE AND UGLY BODDY.
• I WAS BANNISHED TO THE DARK ZONE, ONLY TO APPEAR ON FESTIVAL NAIGHT...
• I WAIR THIS MASK, BEACAUSE MY TRUE FAICE, SCAIRES EVEN MYSELF.

Same as above. It's implied that she already knew that it's SOUL,

What implies it? The library books? Susie read those?

but she genuinely confused for same reason for why I would be confused if I see someone's heart. To knock us she needs to precisely whittle our HP down to 1, visible battle damage won't tell it, and our stamina doesn't drop after knock outs. Mlst likely she just can just sense it.

I'll wait for others to input on this.

We already discussed this part and reached agreement about it.

My bad. Sorry for any bother.

Both Library and Dark Fountains clearly indicate that all Lightners poccess Soul. Kris circumstances are obviously atypical, but their SOUL is still described as Human Soul, so.

Noted.

Kris having two souls is seemingly contradicted by phone dialogue, that says that they can't enter Dark Worlds without SOUL.

....Well, the exact dialogue is
" ... need... soul...
Without... soul... Kris... will... — Caller, Chapter 4"

In theory, the ellipses could indicate one or more omitted "a" particles. (Though it could also indicate omitted "the" particles, & while I'm skeptic of either, argument from incredulity fallacy?? IDK.)

Presumably DW would recognise them as objects.

Recognize as objects them... as in.... SOUL-less Kris? The living animate things that are the SOULs themselves

Since other Lightners don't have such problems, I would say that most likely Kris has only one SOUL, and it mostly shares similarities to other Lightners SOULs

Fair.

Thanks for the input

Glad you appreciate it!
Should I presume your omission of other parts indicates acceptance of the omitted parts?

 

[Qurbonboev]

If Kris isn't scared when using ScaredyCat, then who's heart is pumping nervously & why?

Whether Kris is scared or not idsn't very important for discussion.
Only important thing is whether ScaredyAct should be in profile.

Odd notion, since many don't seem like they would know of the prophecy, let alone care

Card Kingdom darkners attacks us because King orders them(K. Round os among them) to capture Lightners(for revenge). Cyber City darkners attacks us because Queen orders them to capture Lightners(in order to create fountains). Church darkners knew about prophecy, and recognise us as heroes of prophecy.

Replying doesn't work properly, so I will type out continuation in another post

 

[Qurbonboev]

I don't think that would be a question one would be likely to ask if having a SOUL was the norm; If it came out of them, evidently, it's theirs.

Having SOUL is a norm for the Lightners, it being able to fly from chest is definitely not. Most People think humans have souls, but if they were come out from someone, they still would be in geniune confision from seeing it.
Don't want to be seen aggressive. But only argument for other Lightners not having SOUL is Susie being confused as sight of Kris Soul. When counter arguments are: Library Books, Queen entire plan, SOUL being called Human Soul. And also Spamton says there that someone left their Souls(not Soul)

But in the room where Jackenstein is met, before everything goes dark, Kris, Susie & Ralsei all have separate circles of light centered on themselves

Btw, if you think argument for enhanced hearing for all darkners isn't good enough, this part of debate isn't necessary at all.

What implies it? The library books? Susie read those?

This scene clearly reads as her nearly saying SOUL.

....Well, the exact dialogue is
" ... need... soul...
Without... soul... Kris... will... — Caller, Chapter 4"

Japanese translation says that can't enter it all without us. Which most likely indicates that DW differentiate between Lightners and objects by their SOUL(which are instrumental to their creation in the first place). And Soulless Kris would turn to darkner(which obviously isn't desirable) in DW.

 

[Qurbonboev]

I'll wait for others to input on this.

If this counts, other supporters and staff member agreed to this ability

 

[Imaginym]

Having SOUL is a norm for the Lightners, it being able to fly from chest is definitely not. Most People think humans have souls, but if they were come out from someone, they still would be in geniune confision from seeing it.
Don't want to be seen aggressive. But only argument for other Lightners not having SOUL is Susie being confused as sight of Kris Soul. When counter arguments are: Library Books, Queen entire plan, SOUL being called Human Soul. And also Spamton says there that someone left their Souls(not Soul)

Fair, I guess.

Btw, if you think argument for enhanced hearing for all darkners isn't good enough, this part of debate isn't necessary at all.

To me, it seems like Jackenstein noticed them via sight of the light.
Organikk & Wiccabel are likely sound-receptive via physiology, but only the former has Echolocation for certain. They might be more sensitive/perceptive of sound because of their masks/bodies. but beyond that, yeah, the Enhanced Hearing seems dubious.

This scene clearly reads as her nearly saying SOUL.


Japanese translation says that can't enter it all without us. Which most likely indicates that DW differentiate between Lightners and objects by their SOUL(which are instrumental to their creation in the first place).

Fair.

And Soulless Kris would turn to darkner(which obviously isn't desirable) in DW.

Whether Kris is scared or not idsn't very important for discussion.
Only important thing is whether ScaredyAct should be in profile.


Card Kingdom darkners attacks us because King orders them(K. Round os among them) to capture Lightners(for revenge). Cyber City darkners attacks us because Queen orders them to capture Lightners(in order to create fountains). Church darkners knew about prophecy, and recognise us as heroes of prophecy.

What about the Ribbicks in the backstage waste bins of the TV World, to say nothing of all the things Tenna's photoshoot indicates are "wildlife"?

Replying doesn't work properly, so I will type out continuation in another post

Doesn't work properly? How so?

 

[Qurbonboev]

What about the Ribbicks in the backstage waste bins of the TV World, to say nothing of all the things Tenna's photoshoot indicates are "wildlife"?

TV World is unusual case, since most Darkners would be familiar with Kris and Susie during plays on TV boards. Wildlife are likely Tenna workers. Idk about Ribbicks, they probably just love fighting.

Doesn't work properly? How so?

Didn't work properly, so was forced to split response.
Only thing you didn't respond(and only thing left) is this one.

If this counts, other supporters and staff member agreed to this ability

If agreement of another staff member isn't enough, idk what to do. I don't think we gonna have another one anytime soon

 

[Imaginym]

TV World is unusual case, since most Darkners would be familiar with Kris and Susie during plays on TV boards. Wildlife are likely Tenna workers. Idk about Ribbicks, they probably just love fighting.

Apologies. Was sleepy at the time & misspoke.
I meant Shutta's photoshoot in Castle Town, where several animal-like Darkners are in a wildlife photoshoot outside the entrance to Ralsei's castle.

If agreement of another staff member isn't enough, idk what to do. I don't think we gonna have another one anytime soon

Beyond the agreements given so far, I presume you mean?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Apologies. Was sleepy at the time & misspoke.
I meant Shutta's photoshoot in Castle Town, where several animal-like Darkners are in a wildlife photoshoot outside the entrance to Ralsei's castle

I see it as just a joke. And how it's relevant at all to our discussion?

Beyond the agreements given so far, I presume you mean?

Yeah, supporters and one staff member agreed to it already. Arguments are (in my opinion) are solid. Susie and Knight can't track SOUL HP via stamina depletion(it never happens via just hp depletion) or visible battle damage. Physical battle damage isn't even remotely 1:1 to Soul damage received, and it's far less than it. If they were tracking it by visible battle damage, they would have 100% destroy the SOUL instead of knocking it out

 

[Imaginym]

I see it as just a joke. And how it's relevant at all to our discussion?

You argued many attack because of the prophecy, but many are treated as animals, like Maus & Tasque. Why would they heed the prophecy or understand orders?
K. Round attacked because it does that, then later because Rouxls put a control crown on it.

Yeah, supporters and one staff member agreed to it already. Arguments are (in my opinion) are solid. Susie and Knight can't track SOUL HP via stamina depletion(it never happens via just hp depletion) or visible battle damage. Physical battle damage isn't even remotely 1:1 to Soul damage received, and it's far less than it. If they were tracking it by visible battle damage, they would have 100% destroy the SOUL instead of knocking it out

 

[Qurbonboev]

You argued many attack because of the prophecy

Only chapter 4 darkners do, since they are familiar with it. Most of the chapter 1 and 2 darkners do because they are ordered to do. How exactly darkners in card kingdom castle and Queen mansion would be able to recognise Gang as not just another darkners, but actually lightners? They wouldn't attack any random darkners, so they should recognize us as enemy first.
How can Queen henhcmans know that Noelle and Berdly are Lightners? It's not like they themselves know this.

Yeah, supporters and one staff member agreed to it already

You replied to it, but nothing is written below it. Idk why, maybe there is error somewhere?

 

[Imaginym]

Only chapter 4 darkners do, since they are familiar with it. Most of the chapter 1 and 2 darkners do because they are ordered to do. How exactly darkners in card kingdom castle and Queen mansion would be able to recognise Gang as not just another darkners, but actually lightners? They wouldn't attack any random darkners, so they should recognize us as enemy first.
How can Queen henhcmans know that Noelle and Berdly are Lightners? It's not like they themselves know this.

Yeah, but my point is how would things that behave animalistically know the orders, let alone follow them?

You replied to it, but nothing is written below it. Idk why, maybe there is error somewhere?

My mistake, forgot to omit it; Had no comment about it. Sorry.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Yeah, but my point is how would things that behave animalistically know the orders, let alone follow them?

Sure, some darkners behave animalistically and seemingly attack randoms, but big share of them aren't like this. Rudinns, Hathies, Jigsawries, Wereerewires, Tasque Manager, (to name a few) are darkners that don't seem to behave animalistically, and follow orders. They wouldn't attack random darkners. After all three DW have clear rulers to them.

My mistake, forgot to omit it; Had no comment about it. Sorry.

So was it's your stance on extrasensory perception(for Lightners) based on my arguments. If you think my arguments and agreement of previous mod isn't enough, I can discuss this ability in next CRT(which would be mainly about Lightners)

 

[Imaginym]

Sure, some darkners behave animalistically and seemingly attack randoms, but big share of them aren't like this. Rudinns, Hathies, Jigsawries, Wereerewires, Tasque Manager, (to name a few) are darkners that don't seem to behave animalistically, and follow orders. They wouldn't attack random darkners. After all three DW have clear rulers to them.




So was it's your stance on extrasensory perception(for Lightners) based on my arguments. If you think my arguments and agreement of previous mod isn't enough, I can discuss this ability in next CRT(which would be mainly about Lightners)

It may be worth it to wait for more discussion, though if you want a verdict now, I'd say Likely/Possibly, maybe outright, since there is evidence in favor of it, & while not all of them have shown indications of being aware of the SOUL to attack it (Rather than just merely being ordered &/or compelled to go after the Lightners.), there are multiple Darkners who know of the SOUL like Spamton & seemingly Queen. (How else indeed would she know they're Lightners?)

....Though, FWIW, haven't some Darkners been able to witness & record the creation of their Dark Fountain, as well as the surrounding LW?

 

[Qurbonboev]

It may be worth it to wait for more discussion, though if you want a verdict now, I'd say Likely/Possibly

Is it for extrasensory perception for Lightners or Darkners? Darkners have a bit better arguments, and accepting ability for Lightners would necessarily entail it's acceptance for Darkners(since they have same arguments, and a bit more).

....Though, FWIW, haven't some Darkners been able to witness & record the creation of their Dark Fountain, as well as the surrounding LW?

Some of them could. But most of them don't. King didn't see Knight, Queen had educational video about Fountain creation(implying most didn't see it), TV World didn't see lightners before we started playing as them, etc...

 

[Imaginym]

Is it for extrasensory perception for Lightners or Darkners? Darkners have a bit better arguments, and accepting ability for Lightners would necessarily entail it's acceptance for Darkners(since they have same arguments, and a bit more).

For Darkners.
Besides Susie's reaction, there's also these issues in my mind:
1. The book talks about what the SOUL has been called, suggesting they're talking about views regarding it, implying knowledge of it may be inexact or unconfirmed.
2. Noelle being scared by Kris pretending to rip out their heart & chasing her around with it out when they were kids, & it being called a heart rather than a SOUL in that context.
It'd also be weird if everyone had SOULs, since that'd imply everyone can do that trick, so why be scared of it? Why not recognize it & call it a heart?
3. Noelle nervously mentioning that her mom likes to collect heart-shaped objects in the context of the basket of pillows outside Carol & Rudy's room. She could just be nervous because it's a weird hobby, but once again, no acknowledgement of the resemblance to a SOUL.

1. My mom just... collects heart pillows for some reason. — Noelle, Chapter 4

Noelle seems to speak of the subject as if she doesn't know what a SOUL is. Saying "for some reason", the pause, etc. If SOULs were something everyone had, they'd likely be common knowledge enough that she would know of them to bring them up.
4. The narration (Seemingly Kris's) for that basket:

1. It's a heart or human-soul shaped pillow, depending on your opinion. — Narration for inspecting heart-shaped pillows in Noelle's house, Chapter 4

Even if every Lightner had a SOUL, if human SOULs just differ in small amounts of functionality, colour & physical orientation, why would Susie bring it up curiously after seeing it? If being that way is the norm for human SOULs, with mostly superficial differences from her own, why is she curious?

If all Lightners have SOULs, it'd be strange that Kris would specify the shape as that of a HUMAN SOUL's. Even in UT, monsters have heart-shaped SOULs, just upside-down/viewed from a different orientation.

 

[Qurbonboev]

The book talks about what the SOUL has been called, suggesting they're talking about views regarding it, implying knowledge of it may be inexact or unconfirmed.

Knowledge in the books was already vindicated by Queen in same chapter(things like it being source of the will).

Even if every Lightner had a SOUL, if human SOULs just differ in small amounts of functionality, colour & physical orientation, why would Susie bring it up curiously after seeing it? If being that way is the norm for human SOULs, with mostly superficial differences from her own, why is she curious?

If all Lightners have SOULs, it'd be strange that Kris would specify the shape as that of a HUMAN SOUL's. Even in UT, monsters have heart-shaped SOULs, just upside-down/viewed from a different orientation.

This part could be explained as just monster Soul looking totally different than human soul, and it having such differences as not being able to rip it out. After all there should be differences between monster and Soul souls, if narration makes distinction between them. They share their most important trait, being source of the will/determination.
Susie not recognising Soul visually is not a antifeat to her having extrasensory perception at all(it's called extrasensory after all). All I am claiming is that she(and most Lightners) can feel health of Soul in Dark Worlds in some way or another, and it's doesn't require for her (and them) to recognise SOUL visually at all. Imagine me being able to differentiate between visually similar object A and B by their smell, but not by their visuals. Me not being able to recognise object A by their visuals doesn't invalidate my ability to recognise that object A is rotten based on its smell.

Since everything is mangled here, can you lut your final verdict on:
Extrasensory perception for all Darkners
Extrasensory perception for all Lightners

If you are still in disagreement with one of them, I will just postpone them to next CRT and discuss them here(and find better arguments for them if possible)

 

[Imaginym]

Knowledge in the books was already vindicated by Queen in same chapter(things like it being source of the will).

Queen's knowledge has proven been imperfect before, but I suppose there is at least evidence Lightners have Will, which suggests SOULs, but the terminology of Human SOUL makes it curious.

This part could be explained as just monster Soul looking totally different than human soul, and it having such differences as not being able to rip it out. After all there should be differences between monster and Soul souls, if narration makes distinction between them. They share their most important trait, being source of the will/determination.
Susie not recognising Soul visually is not a antifeat to her having extrasensory perception at all(it's called extrasensory after all).

But Noelle's dialogue suggests she didn't know it either, neither in the past, nor know despite her mother's obsession.

All I am claiming is that she(and most Lightners) can feel health of Soul in Dark Worlds in some way or another, and it's doesn't require for her (and them) to recognise SOUL visually at all. Imagine me being able to differentiate between visually similar object A and B by their smell, but not by their visuals. Me not being able to recognise object A by their visuals doesn't invalidate my ability to recognise that object A is rotten based on its smell.

I suppose that's fine.

Since everything is mangled here, can you lut your final verdict on:
Extrasensory perception for all Darkners

As above, it has my approval. There's seemingly precedent they can see it, target it, etc.

Extrasensory perception for all Lightners

For them, I'd say feeling it to perceive the health amount is fine, but being able to see it would be possibly/likely.

If you are still in disagreement with one of them, I will just postpone them to next CRT and discuss them here(and find better arguments for them if possible)

I have no issues with you doing that, should you choose to, though please note that me responding to this quoted portion of your post doesn't necessarily indicate more disagreement.

Hope this helps.

 

[Qurbonboev]

As above, it has my approval. There's seemingly precedent they can see it, target it, etc.

Nice

For them, I'd say feeling it to perceive the health amount is fine, but being able to see it would be possibly/likely.

Well, I asking only for establishing that they can perceive amount of it, so it's enough for me.
Thanks for your input and time

 

[Imaginym]

Nice


Well, I asking only for establishing that they can perceive amount of it, so it's enough for me.
Thanks for your input and time

Glad it's appreciated & helped.

It may be useful for further evaluation to provide a tally of who's approved what here, since this thread is still awaiting further evaluation, right?

 

[Qurbonboev]

Glad it's appreciated & helped.

It may be useful for further evaluation to provide a tally of who's approved what here, since this thread is still awaiting further evaluation, right?

DarkDragon agreed to most parts of CRT(and thing he disagreed with were discarded or put on hold). Since there is nothing overtly controversial in this CRT, two votes is enough to conclude it