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Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

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Mr._East_Statement said:
Co-dependent property with the bubbles?
Click to expand...
I don't think that the tao is really co-dependent on the bubbles, I think you take the language way too literally and less with "Taoist" logic, So when it says "Coming forth from the bubbles it takes form", it probably means that when it "exists" the bubbles, it takes form, and because it takes form, its no longer the real Tao, because the real Tao cant be described, you literally quoted this "The Dao that may be trodden is not the eternal Dao", so when it says this: "yet entering them it becomes real", when it "comes back" to the "bubbles", it becomes real because it returns into the "White void" thingy outside the imaginary tree where GGZ Yog "lives"(which we know is not describable because Yog exists there and she is also ineffable), which is no longer describable and definable, that's why it says it "becomes real" when it enters the bubble, because the "real" nameless Tao is not describable.
So the bubbles are more of a filter for Tao than something it depends on in my opinion. Because for co-dependence, you'd need 3 things(from what I remember): Tao cannot exist without bubbles, bubbles cannot exist without Tao, and mutual ontological necessity, but the text shows bubbles end, shadows extinguish and life and death cycle, meanwhile Dao is contrasted with name, form, and manifestation. Dao precedes and outlasts these processes, so if anything, the bubbles depend on Dao, and Dao merely passes through them.
And about this claim: “Yog being beyond Tao defeats Tao’s primacy.”
The text never establishes Tao as the absolute highest ontological layer or independent of Yog. Instead, the text frames Tao as a mode of expression within a greater ineffable totality.
So Yog being “beyond Tao” doesn’t refute Tier 0, it supports it: Yog encompasses even the highest "conceptual" absolute, Including Tao itself.
That’s not a contradiction. That’s a superset.
But maybe that's just me.
I just think you took the wording too literally with modern logic.
 
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LOLfaswer123 said:
I don't think that the tao is really co-dependent on the bubbles, I think you take the language way too literally and less with "Taoist" logic, So when it says "Coming forth from the bubbles it takes form", it probably means that when it "exists" the bubbles, it takes form, and because it takes form, its no longer the real Tao, because the real Tao cant be described, you literally quoted this "The Dao that may be trodden is not the eternal Dao", so when it says this: "yet entering them it becomes real", when it "comes back" to the "bubbles", it becomes real because it returns into the "White void" thingy outside the imaginary tree where GGZ Yog "lives"(which we know is not describable because Yog exists there and she is also ineffable), which is no longer describable and definable, that's why it says it "becomes real" when it enters the bubble, because the "real" nameless Tao is not describable.
So the bubbles are more of a filter for Tao than something it depends on in my opinion. Because for co-dependence, you'd need 3 things(from what I remember): Tao cannot exist without bubbles, bubbles cannot exist without Tao, and mutual ontological necessity, but the text shows bubbles end, shadows extinguish and life and death cycle, meanwhile Dao is contrasted with name, form, and manifestation. Dao precedes and outlasts these processes, so if anything, the bubbles depend on Dao, and Dao merely passes through them.
And about this claim: “Yog being beyond Tao defeats Tao’s primacy.”
The text never establishes Tao as the absolute highest ontological layer or independent of Yog. Instead, the text frames Tao as a mode of expression within a greater ineffable totality.
So Yog being “beyond Tao” doesn’t refute Tier 0, it supports it: Yog encompasses even the highest "conceptual" absolute, Including Tao itself.
That’s not a contradiction. That’s a superset.
But maybe that's just me.
I just think you took the wording too literally with modern logic.
Click to expand...
The verse got downgraded so at least in your opinion would this still qualify for tier 0
 
LOLfaswer123 said:
So Yog being “beyond Tao” doesn’t refute Tier 0, it supports it: Yog encompasses even the highest "conceptual" absolute, Including Tao itself.
That’s not a contradiction. That’s a superset.
Click to expand...
What does this even mean bro. The Tao by definition cannot be an object of transcendence, so whatever is being talked about here is something straight out of temu taoism and certainly scales nowhere coherent.

Now idrc about whether or not the text implies Yog is or is above the Tao because both interpretations mean nothing without additional context
 
Not sure whether this particular fact has been pointed out yet but I wonder that when it says:
Language frames the world, words make the rules, and so space and time are framed beyond this.
Click to expand...
That space and time are merely the foundation for things to be defined. And that being aspatiotemporal just means you are not subject to the definitions of being with Space-Time. Honestly, this doesn’t seem to necessarily implicate anything higher than 5D if the pre-conditions for being defined in the first place (Space and Time) are 5D as well.

I think this interpretation is particularly supported by this line as well:
Many people through the ages have expressed their ideas through words, seeing them as tools, but they had not imagined that the real world is born from words, so just one word may contribute to the rise of a universe from the concept of chaos, and then fixate it, so it never perishes again.
Click to expand...
Where definition is functionally just “fixating” what’s already possible (all things) within Space-Time, by just distinguishing it from a chaotic whole. In that sense, it just means that Yog’s power is underpinned by Space-Time itself (like an author’s words being bound by the paper it’s written on).

This wouldn’t necessarily cap Yog below 1-A but I believe it’d require additional proof for R>F to be cashed out which I’m pretty sure doesn’t exist anywhere.
 
Super_Nova said:
What does this even mean bro. The Tao by definition cannot be an object of transcendence, so whatever is being talked about here is something straight out of temu taoism and certainly scales nowhere coherent.

Now idrc about whether or not the text implies Yog is or is above the Tao because both interpretations mean nothing without additional context
Click to expand...
The Tao not being an “object” is exactly the point, I’m not treating it like one. Tao is a principle, and Taoism itself says the moment it’s named, described, or conceptualized, it’s no longer the true Tao. The text shows a Tao that takes form, and is recorded, which already places it on the “describable Tao” side, not the eternal nameless one. Yog existing “beyond” Tao isn’t vertical transcendence of a thing, it’s existing where conceptual principles themselves stop applying. That’s straight apophatic logic, not Temu Taoism. The real Tao is what remains when description collapses, and that’s exactly how Yog is framed. Calling it incoherent only works if you ignore Taoism’s own rejection of conceptual absolutes.
 
LOLfaswer123 said:
The Tao not being an “object” is exactly the point, I’m not treating it like one. Tao is a principle, and Taoism itself says the moment it’s named, described, or conceptualized, it’s no longer the true Tao. The text shows a Tao that takes form, and is recorded, which already places it on the “describable Tao” side, not the eternal nameless one. Yog existing “beyond” Tao isn’t vertical transcendence of a thing, it’s existing where conceptual principles themselves stop applying. That’s straight apophatic logic, not Temu Taoism. The real Tao is what remains when description collapses, and that’s exactly how Yog is framed. Calling it incoherent only works if you ignore Taoism’s own rejection of conceptual absolutes.
Click to expand...

Yog has a form. Yog has a name. Yog has attributes. Yog acts. Yog participates in subject-object relations.

Should I keep going? I would appreciate it if we left headcanons for another thread, please. It is starting to get annoying.
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
Yog has a form. Yog has a name. Yog has attributes. Yog acts. Yog participates in subject-object relations.

Should I keep going? I would appreciate it if we left headcanons for another thread, please. It is starting to get annoying.
Click to expand...
Oh yes, because its totally possible for Hoyoverse to create a character without those things, and its literally stated that here that she is beyond definition and language.
And the Yog that "acts" is her avatars. And the form is also an avatar because they wouldn't have "described" her as beyond definition and language without it.
And her name is literally just how we need to refer to her, how would we refer to her if she didn't have a name? Azathoth and the Divine Creato/The Dreamer also has a name and they are also tier 0.
If we use narrative things to debunk things, then everyone that speaks, moves or does anything in a 1-A realm is debunked from being 1-A.
And where did I use headcanon? I literally just used normal logic to get to those conclusions.
 
I am tripping everytime I see ur pfp T - T
(Gonna change to Ultima's pfp and finish this crt xD)
 
LOLfaswer123 said:
The Tao not being an “object” is exactly the point, I’m not treating it like one. Tao is a principle, and Taoism itself says the moment it’s named, described, or conceptualized, it’s no longer the true Tao. The text shows a Tao that takes form, and is recorded, which already places it on the “describable Tao” side, not the eternal nameless one. Yog existing “beyond” Tao isn’t vertical transcendence of a thing, it’s existing where conceptual principles themselves stop applying. That’s straight apophatic logic, not Temu Taoism. The real Tao is what remains when description collapses, and that’s exactly how Yog is framed. Calling it incoherent only works if you ignore Taoism’s own rejection of conceptual absolutes.
Click to expand...
Ngl why do I feel that this is js edited from ChatGPT.

LOLfaswer123 said:
That’s straight apophatic logic, not Temu Taoism.
Click to expand...
There’s a very good reason why the Tao is ineffable. I already went over this since like page 1. Just being unspeakable is reducible to a trillion things.

Not to mention that now that I think about it; it’s probably contradictory for the Tao to even “define” or “create boundaries” because it’s not even supposed to be a generative principle in the first place.

LOLfaswer123 said:
Yog existing “beyond” Tao isn’t vertical transcendence of a thing, it’s existing where conceptual principles themselves stop applying.
Click to expand...
This is just incoherent btw. To be beyond something reduces that “thing” to a determinate object. The Tao is beyond determination completely.
 
Ascka23 said:
Meh. Someone can post a tier 0 character out of a hentai game and no one would really care. Its more about the fact that the majority hoyo fandoms are degenerates and need a medium to vent out their misery.
Click to expand...
I mean isnt dkd novel hentai as well or nah. The only difference is there are no pictures
 
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Ascka23 said:
Meh. Someone can post a tier 0 character out of a hentai game and no one would really care. Its more about the fact that the majority hoyo fandoms are degenerates and need a medium to vent out their misery.
Click to expand...
Can we get some hunipop scaling next?
 
ExcelsisBerny said:
Can y'all stop posting irrelevant messages? Omg bro. This thread is gonna be endless.
Click to expand...
ExcelsisBerny said:
Can someone ask Vietthai if he can delete all the useless comments so far? Please.
Click to expand...
source.gif
 
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