I wanted to write a summary post to all the arguments so far combined in a single comment
Why Yuuki's Lifespan should truly be infinite (4-D)
So many people said the "infinite lifespan" gets contradicted by the statement in the end about Yuuki dying. However, it is a HEAVILY established fact that Yuuki is a spiritual lifeform.
Some also claim that the "infinite lifespan" is metaphorical and just refers to a really long life. However, I will proven them wrong:
Infinite Lifespan for Spiritual lifeform
Here are many statements from the thread that repeatedly say Spiritual lifeforms have eternal life
Compared to Grucius, Myulan’s circumstances are far more
complicated.
She was originally a witch. Persecuted by humans, she was on the run around 300 years ago. After uncovering the secrets of evolution, she bestowed its benefits unto herself.
That is, she gained eternal youth.
As for why she is currently serving Demon Lord Clayman, that would be because of a deal they made.
Chapter 49
‘Turn a body of flesh into that of a Spirit Form for a certain amount of time’
That was the hidden power of God-tier armour.nA Spirit Form, in other words, a God-like Being.
Veldora was like that, and speaking of which, I was too.
I didn’t pay much attention, but it was certainly a state close to being immortal.
Eternal youth was guaranteed, along with a strong degree of immortality.
Chapter 164
(Immortality here means "hard to kill")
Such thing as going to war with no chance of winning was nonsense.
The country can be rebuild, it wasn’t something she need to be concerned with.
Ruminas and her kin has eternal life, there’s no reason for them to fight betting their life on it.
Chapter 216
There’s no way she’s alive.
Unlike Milim, who could live eternally, Salome was no more than one of the maids who served Lucia.
There was no way that Salome, who was a human, is still alive.
Chapter 239
And there he goes with his high pitched laughter…
So basically, since he has no lifespan, he needs no children!
That kind of thing?
His explanation dragged on, but it was pretty useful.
Storm Dragon Veldora… a dragon, huh?
Chapter 3
The reason is that when he was summoned to this world, his entire physical constitution was renewed and changed his body into a type of spirit life-form.
Thus, Yuuki exceeded the limits of this world.
Yuuki was convinced that his power would be equal to a Demon Lord in 10 years.
However, he couldn’t be careless.
Even is if he was certain of his power, when he noticed that his figure hadn’t changed at all, Yuuki had already noticed that his lifespan was no longer of concern.
It was unnecessary to get impatient. He would advance surely and carefully.
Chapter 132
For a short-lived human, gaining a mastery required for such treasures would be but a distant dream.
But even becoming a ghost with an unlimited lifespan, he was a soul who had not lost his talents as a Holy Knight.
Possibly being even better than Hakurou at swordsmanship, was Albert really not worthy of such equipment?
Chapter 164
However, Leon is a high ranking human who possess holy body.
He was an awakened Hero, which was similar to existence which don’t have lifespan but―― certainly it was depending on the physical body.
If he evolves to be a spiritual lifeform and become a demi god, the matter might have been different.
Chapter 213
The conditions in many of the Parallel Worlds minutely deviated from one another, which led them to achieve different evolutions. Meanwhile, he carefully chose humans with matured souls and created Angels and Demons as the manager of the souls without a lifespan. He constructed a system so that the souls circulated to all dimensions.
Chapter 248
A guardian spirit of the Treants. Among the monsters, she would rank among the top of A rank.
Many voiced their surprise when she entered.
Well duh, you’d be surprised. As I heard later, it’s been many hundreds of years since a Dryad “Layato” has last been seen.
With long life spans (immortal, actually) these women rarely leave their sacred dwellings.
You would normally be happy if they had sent a messenger.
Chapter 42
This problem, seemed to be on my end. I heard the voice of the world.
It seems, procreation becomes impossible after evolving from an Ogre to a Demon Lord.
Because the concept of life span would disappear, the ability to make a child does not seem necessary.
“Regretfully, until I complete my job as the leader of my species, I cannot complete the evolution….”
Chapter 162
Why Infinite Lifespan is not metaphorical
Because Immortality and simple Longevity has a difference in tensura.
For Longevity
The last audience was with the elves, who, had a complaint to file to me…
The ones who came to the discussion were a number of their elders, though specifically there was a disappointing lack in the female elf variety.
To begin with, the elf race is generally well known for their unusual longevity.
As they are said to be the descendents of forest fairies, they have an average lifespan of between five hundred and eight hundred years.
There are even those who are suggested to have lived even far longer, coming closer to a fairy-like existence.
Their bodies mature into adulthood at the age of 20, similar to the human race, yet stop aging beyond that point.
For humans who age constantly until their death, they are a race to envy.
That is the reason why, even if they were called the elven elders, they still have extremely youthful appearances.
They start aging rapidly when they begin to draw towards their deaths, and after roughly twenty or thirty years after the aging process begins, they face the risk of senility, just as elderly humans.
Chapter 103
The conclude, the giants, the vampires, and the devils are the high class majin with the longest life span.
Although these too can reproduce, they normally abstain. Hosting overwhelming magical energy, their flesh never decays.
And so, there is no need to leave offspring. Though perhaps if their numbers were to decrease due to a war or some great calamity, that may change.
Chapter 3
Grucius endured this trial, like squeezing through the eye of a needle.
And thus, Grucius became the same species as his King, and acquired the same abilities and long lifespan.
Even now, a hundred years since his rebirth, his abilities have yet to wane.
Compared to Grucius, Myulan’s circumstances are far more complicated.
She was originally a witch. Persecuted by humans, she was on the run around 300 years ago. After uncovering the secrets of evolution, she bestowed its benefits unto herself.
That is, she gained eternal youth.
As for why she is currently serving Demon Lord Clayman, that would be because of a deal they made.
Chapter 49
Even more than the elves, Vampires have extremely long lifespans.
Moreover, particularly high vampires don’t even need to suck blood but directly consume human life energy.
And with so much time on their hands the Vampires can’t help but spend it doing and researching what they enjoy the most.
So, I’m pretty certain that even if they participate in our research, it will be mostly on a whim.
Few of them, those called Nobles, can stand sunlight, these Nobles will be able to continue their research in just about any facility.
Chapter 129
A guardian spirit of the Treants. Among the monsters, she would rank among the top of A rank.
Many voiced their surprise when she entered.
Well duh, you’d be surprised. As I heard later, it’s been many hundreds of years since a Dryad “Layato” has last been seen.
With long life spans (immortal, actually) these women rarely leave their sacred dwellings. You would normally be happy if they had sent a messenger.
Chapter 42
So:
- Simple Longevity is different from Immortality (infinite life) in tensura. All the races with longevity, such as Elves and Vampires, have a lifespan, even if long, compared to spirit forms,. they are still mortals.
- Basically anyone bound by the physical body isn't truly immortal as it eventually decays. Evolved beings can reduce the decay rate by Magicules, but it doesn't make them truly immortal/eternal (infinite lifespan).
- For example, Layato is a spirit, a spiritual lifeform. Yet when the narrator says "she has a long lifespan", it corrects itself later with "immortal, actually". That makes the difference clear.
Why Yuuki must have an infinite lifespan
Yuuki is a spiritual lifeform, which as I proved above have eternal life/infinite lifespan. Even then, it's separately said he doesn't need to worry about him lifespan.
The reason is that when he was summoned to this world, his entire physical constitution was renewed and changed his body into a type of spirit life-form. Thus, Yuuki exceeded the limits of this world. Yuuki was convinced that his power would be equal to a Demon Lord in 10 years.
However, he couldn’t be careless. Even is if he was certain of his power, when he noticed that his figure hadn’t changed at all, Yuuki had already noticed that his lifespan was no longer of concern. It was unnecessary to get impatient. He would advance surely and carefully.
Chapter 132
He isn't an exception either. Even if you say "Yuuki not caring is just cuz the life is long" or "not all spiritual lifeforms must have infinite lifespan. In fact, he has the third best statement about "lifespan" when it comes to spiritual lifeforms. That is:
Reviving Lucia might have been possible when he was the ”Stellar Lord Dragon” Veldanava, but it was not an easy task for the current Velda.
First of all, he must recover all the abilities.
Whatever it takes, he needs to obtain the Ultimate Skill, 『Wisdom Lord Raphael』 that will be reborn somewhere, and someday. He wasn’t panicking.
Because time is infinite and his life span was as well.
l Because Lucia will surely wait for him until after he finished destroying the world.
As Velda was reconfirming his raison d’être, he stared at the angels.
Chapter 189
The "
as well" means both Time and his Lifespan are equally infinite. So Yuuki's lifespan ending isn't an anti feat considering Ciel said that while being outside the space time continuum. However,
Confusion of Beyond Time and End of Time, and where «All Time» stands
I have seen many people argue from a point of view where they take both of these terms as the same. But it's clearly not.
The main cause of this misunderstanding is misinterpreting this statement
Bathed in the flow of all time and received the repulsion of the space that tried to fix itself, the target was sent to beyond time.
To the “End of Time and Space”―― A void in the far off future where the end of time and space overlapped.
The main misunderstanding is due to how the first line is followed by "to the end of time" right afterwards, however, this misunderstanding is quickly resolved in the next chapter.
First read this in the normal sequence:
I opened my eyes slightly.
I’m sure I had begun my final battle with Yuuki, and yet――
《You finally woke up?》
Oh! Ciel-san said something to me.
Where are we?
Also what happened to Veldora-san?
《This is the End of the World. It could also be referred to as the “End of Time and Space”. As for Veldora, he was isolated inside the『Imaginary Space』and completely protected, so please rest assured.》
I see. Veldora-san is alright.
Thank goodness….. Eh? This needlessly large and empty world is the “End of Time and Space”, she said?
Certainly, time doesn’t flow and is in a stopped state. I can’t sense the spread of space either…..
《Yes. In this world, the flow of time has stopped. The spread of space had ceased as well, and in accordance with the Law of Entropy, this world has arrived at nothingness.》
Has arrived? You are talking as if you have watched it?
《That’s right. We were hurled to beyond space and time due to Yuuki’s attack. The lifespan of the planet has already ended a long time ago, but the collapse of the world hasn’t yet been reached. From that I deduced, Yuuki probably couldn’t destroy the world itself yet. When he was at the phase where he destroyed the celestial bodies as well as the space-time continuum, I presume that Yuuki’s lifespan had come to an end. However, I can’t judge whether his wish was fulfilled or not. After that, we wandered around as we drifted in the space and I witnessed the end of this universe.》
Chapter 248
《As you wish, my Lord.》
Ciel responded to my order.
Brief as usual, her response was stated matter-of-factly.
However, I just woke up a little while ago, but Ciel had been waiting for me to wake up for countless years.
An unconcealable joy seeped out from her voice as she responded to my order.
Chapter 248
Now read it in this order
- Red
- Yellow
- Purple
- Green
- Blue
And now read this:
――Chrono Saltation――
対象を時が終わる時空へと跳躍させる、究極の超時空魔法。
The Ultimate Super Space-Time Magic that forced the target to leap to space where time had ended.
The magic was formed by swallowing up all of the energy that filled the place and even the raging quakes in time.
Then, with that immeasurable energy, it took Rimuru away to the “End of Time and Space”.
時空連続体としての、リムルに連なる分身体までも全て根こそぎ巻き込んで……。
Even all of Rimuru’s clones were completely swallowed up by the space-time continuum……
So it's clear that
- Chrono Saltation, using the force of All Time, throws Rimuru out to "beyond Time".
- He along with all his clones is swallowed by the Space-Time Continuum.
- Rimuru and Ciel were outside the Continuum, described as "Beyond Time" once again.
- By that time Yuuki had already destroyed either (depending on how you want to interpret the kanji):
- The Space Time Continuum
- Everything (described as Stars in general) as Space-Time Continuous Entities
- Either of these still imply retroactive destruction of X (everything). But the World itself still wasn't destroyed.
- Time still flowed, and in that passed Time, Rimuru (Ciel) even gathered an immense amount of Turn Null energy.
- Ciel watched the Universe/World as they arrived at the End of Time and Space while they were drifting in “Space” until they reached the End of Time and Space.
- At the End of Time and Space, where both Space and Time end simultaneously, time stopped flowing and Space stopped expanding.
Think of it like this. You have a target X inside Space and Time. However, you stop Time, yet make it so that Time still flows on the target X alone. Because Time is only flowing on X and not the surroundings, this produces huge space-time distortions due to unsynchronition.
Since X has already experiences "all of Time" whereas his surroundings have experienced no time, the distortions are SO big that they throw X outside the space-time continuum itself.
These distortions appear like how you see black holes being portrayed in most yt videos. There's an infinitely deep "hole" inside the framework of Spacetime.
However, Space is also trying to fix itself. So while Space is stretched infinitely deep around the target due to All Time flowing at only a single point at once, it also tries to get back into its normal position. This makes it so that the framework eventually rips apart, sending/throwing X outside itself while it goes back to normal. And thus X arrives outside the space time continuum.
Now he's in a sort of Space, the 5-dimensional insignificant space we assume all multi-universal cosmologies have. And inside it, he still experiences some form of "Time". He's still inside the world, yet there's nothing besides him. The continuum is already gone (Yuuki destroyed it). Even if he didn't it would have ended naturally.
After this, eventually, the target arrives at what's called the "End of Space and Time".
However, now let's see the scan:
Simultaneously when Rimuru invoked magic nullification, Yuuki activated the trick that he had put inside his prosthetic left hand.
The arm smoothly transformed and unleashed the magic circles engraved on it at Rimuru.
Then, the phenomenon was rewritten and converged into one magic spell.
The Ultimate Magic Arts that never could be activated by one person.
――Chrono Saltation[5]――[6]
The Ultimate Super Space-Time Magic that forced the target to leap to space where time had ended.
The magic was formed by swallowing up all of the energy that filled the place and even the raging quakes in time.
Then, with that immeasurable energy, it took Rimuru away to the “End of Time and Space[7]”.
Even all of Rimuru’s clones were completely swallowed up by the space-time continuum……
If the “Soul Corridor” wasn’t closed, Rimuru’s subordinates and even Velgrind might also become the target of the magic.
All kind of resistance was futile against the terrifying and compelling force of this magic.
Chrono Saltation was impossible to be activated by Yuuki alone.
The reason was simple; it was a compound magic that required the activation of at least 2 or more magic at the same time. Moreover, the magic needed to be activated simultaneously by those with the exact same properties and qualities.
What Yuuki had put inside his prosthesis arm was a simple ultimate spell formula.
The effect was a reversal.
It was a spell formula to reverse the target’s magic effect.
Primitive Magic was a magic that reflected the user’s Will and it wouldn’t just activate because Yuuki understood what kind of magic to use.
Just by wishing it, the phenomenon was invoked. This characteristic was the reason why it was called as the Ultimate Magic.
By limiting the magic that Rimuru could use with Time Stop just now, Yuuki was able to induce Rimuru to activate magic that he desired.
The magic that Rimuru activated was simple and plain. That was nullification.
It was impossible to stop the magic if Rimuru were to try to analyze the magic that Yuuki activated. Given the time differences, the nullification wouldn’t catch up at the same time as Yuuki activated his magic.
Yuuki thought that way.
Instead, Yuuki induced Rimuru’s thoughts while showing his trump card and directed Rimuru to act like that in this situation.
Then, just as Yuuki had planned, Rimuru would activate the magic.
Everything was prepared by Yuuki and he had forced Rimuru to act splendidly, exactly as he wanted.
In the space where Genesis class’ energy collided and space-time quakes occurred, Yuuki had used Space-Time Magic: Time Stop[8].
Originally, there was no meaning of stopping time in Suspended World. It was impossible to stop further of what had stopped.
However, the circumstances were different this time due to Yuuki’s trick.
In order to nullify Yuuki’s magic, Rimuru had activated magic that had the same energy but with the opposite properties of Yuuki’s magic. His magic was reversed by Yuuki’s trick and transformed to magic with the same energy and properties as Yuuki’s magic.
By doing this, Yuuki met the conditions for activating Chrono Saltation.
Even if he added Time Stop to another Time Stop, the effect wouldn’t change.
However, it would cause drastic changes if he multiplied it.
Bathed in the flow of all time and received the repulsion of the space that tried to fix itself, the target was sent to beyond time.
To the “End of Time and Space”―― A void in the far off future where the end of time and space overlapped.
If he couldn’t defeat him, he only had to put off the issue――That was the decision Yuuki had made.
Rimuru was able to rival him, or maybe even surpass him.To fight head-on against a super-level being like Rimuru would be sheer stupidity.
The answer to that was sending Rimuru to the future and destroying the world in that chance.
At the very end, the difficulty of the game to destroy the world, that used to be boring and easy, jumped up insanely, but Yuuki only felt happiness now that he had cleared it.
Yuuki was very happy and showed a smile from the bottom of his heart.
Why is the "End of Time and Space" not just a "freeze" but a cessation of existence?
Another argument various people brought up was that Time and Space didn't "end" as in stopped existing. It's simply that Space has spread all it could and Time has flowed all it can, and now Rimuru arrived at the very end where there's no further time and space. No time flows as everything had already flowed or expanded already.
However, this argument is deeply flawed.
To begin with, freezing means that, sure there's no time or space left to expand, but it doesn't mean what has already flowed stopped existing entirely. That is still there. So theoretically, by that logic, a Time Traveller should still be able to Time Travel, right?
But that's not the case
《Besides, you have not lost to Yuuki yet. You just have to go and defeat him now.》
Ciel-san casually said those words.
I just have to go and defeat him now? Does she mean to go back to the bygone past?
Can something like that be done……?
Chloe seemed to be able to read the memories of the future with Time Leap[6], but that was just an ability to return to your past self.
Besides, it couldn’t be activated while time was stopped.
Yuuki would carefully plan to block a way out like that by stopping time.
Now, some might say "but Yuuki had activated Time Stop magic earlier, so this must be referring to that!", No. He had already released time stop as soon as Rimuru left:
The Time Stop was canceled at the same moment as Rimuru disappeared.
Without waiting for anything, those left behind moved all together.
Most of them didn’t understand exactly what had happened in front of their eyes.
However, the fact that Rimuru had disappeared was the only thing they could understand clearly.
Chapter 247
And, let's look at the author's perspective and what he was thinking
[一言]
リルムを未来に吹っ飛ばしたから最低でもそこまで世界が存続するのが確定するのでは
クロエの能力で過去に精霊を送った時
確定し確認された過去を変更する事は出来ないのだから
そこでリルムが世界を見て存続を確認したらそこまでは壊れないという理屈になるはず
投稿者： フレーム
2014年 07月06日 22時55分
管理
いや、到達する未来がなくなっているという風に考えていました。
崩壊した世界で生き残れる存在なんていないよね、というのがユウキの計算。
確認した情報は崩せないのですが、今回は二重の意味で無視してます。
伏瀬
2014年 07月06日 23時04分
This is saying "the future they arrived at doesn't exist anymore" to a question "doesn't the fact that Rimuru was sent to the future mean the world (hypertimeline) still exists?"
So there's this solid answer to all these questions; "End of Time and Space" means a point where everything stops existing.
Why do the timelines Chloe travel to actually physically exist?
This was another argument I saw one person bringing up.
The argument is essentially based on that Fuse follows Steins; Gate in the part about World-Lines. And since "different world-lines do not physically exist in Steins; Gate, the same applies to tensura".
But this is an association fallacy, where just because part of two things are similar, does not mean all of them are the exact same.
Association fallacy
This is when someone claims that since A has certain qualities, and B is in some way associated with A, then B has those qualities as well, without actual proof of this.
However, the author had answer to this as well.
Firstly, we must know that "different world-lines do not physically exist" in Steins; Gate is based on the
Attractor Field Theory.
The attractor fields theory is a theory explaining the structure of the world in terms of world lines and world line convergence ranges (attractor fields). The premise is that the world is not one of countless parallel worlds. No more than a single world line exists, and on that world line all events from the past to the future are determined. In other words, as long as the world line determines that “Mayuri dies”, Mayuri will die. This is a world line convergence. However, the world line is constantly fluctuating, and one may be transferred to another world line for some reason. On that world line, a possibility that “Mayuri's death” has not been determined is born. However, the moment a world line is transferred to another, the original world line disappears and nothing but the new world line exists, so ordinary humans cannot perceive this world line fluctuation. World lines other than the current world line exist only as possibilities, and bundles of similar world lines among these possible world lines are called α (Alpha) world lines, or β (Beta) world lines. These are original settings, created by the ingenuity of the production team. — Chaos;Head & Steins;Gate: Science Adventure Series Maniacs
And the reader precisely asked this question all the way back in
2013. And to which the author replied:
[一言]
リーディングシュタイナー言うなｗ
あれ。個人的には〝孤独の観測者〟でルビなんだよなぁ。アニメの曲、ハッキングトゥザゲートの歌詞でも孤独の観測者ってフレーズあるし。
と、閑話休題。
流れ理解したお。
本来の世界線……
１．テンペストに厨二ネーム部隊突撃。
２．クロエ泣きつく。時間やばし。
３．その場で空間転移。おかげでヒナタに遭遇せず。テンペスト守りきる。
４．が、その後、テンペストに聖騎士たち突撃。リムル死す。
５．クレイマン覚醒。ワルプルギス、勇者の身体をユウキが奪う。
６．てんやわんや。ルミナスがミリムにやられたり、フレイかばってライオンさん死んだり。
７．勇者、ユウキに操られるままにギィに敗北。
８．過去へ
今回の世界線……
１．テンペス厨二襲来
２．クロエ、我慢。
３．結果、ヒナタと遭遇。何とか逃げ切った。
４．が、テンペスト犠牲者多数。リムルぷっちん+α「覚醒魔王になっちゃる」。究極能力発現！
５．聖騎士に勝利。ついでにヒナタにくっついてた虫も削除。
６．ヒナタ死す。しかし虫もいないので純粋な状態でクロエ進化、更にヒナタ復活。
ってことでおｋ？
で、ヒナタの死は何処の世界線でも必要不可欠で、なんやかんやで絶対死ぬってことかね？
更に、前世界線。もしかしたらリムルが生きてて、過去をいじった可能性もある、と。
最後の質問。
これは多分俺の見落としやも知れんが、聖櫃の中の勇者ってヴェルドラ戦でぶっ倒れたんだったか？ 自信ない……
まぁ、それはいいんだが。
んじゃ質問。クロエの始まりって何処？
召喚されて、過去の自分と合体して、認識できなくなって、このあと何処行った？
飛んで、ユウキが勇者復活させて、それはクロエ+ヒナタで、ヒナタはクロエに吸収されて、ギィに殺されて過去へ。
それで、過去の自分と合体に繋がる。
聖櫃の勇者どっからきたのかわからん。今回の世界線の子供クロエは何処に……
ああああああああああ、馬鹿に生まれた自分を後悔。
- 投稿者： 桐生直隆
- 18歳～22歳
- 2013年 07月28日 17時09分
管理
大丈夫。
本編ではその用語は使ってないですよ！
アトラクターフィールド理論も展開させてないので、問題ないです。多分。
クロエの始まりは、秘密。
ユウキに召喚された時だと思うけど、隠し設定を使うと変動します。
が、これ以上は混乱しそうなので、使うのは止める方向にします。いや、使うかも知れないけど……
聖櫃の勇者が、過去から現在まで生きてきたクロエ（＋ヒナタ）です。
ヒナタが召喚される前に、自分で眠りにつきました。
あの聖櫃は、自分の能力の一つです。
ルミナスは友達なので、その保管を依頼したのです。
消えたクロエは、目覚めた勇者に纏わりつく感じに眠っていたとでも思って下さい。
What this says is something along the lines of "
We’re not developing Attractor Field theory either, so there’s no problem"
So we can understand from this that Steins; Gate doesn't apply to tensura in this particular aspect
