Who will get dunked on: Susie vs Sans (Deltarune vs Undertale) [ 8-9-0 ]

[StrymULTRA]

Regardless, y'all, I cannot give full responses as I not home. Tomorrow I'll lock in fr.

no. no they don't.

You do know that literally every secret boss of Deltarune can indeed kill any of the party members in 3 hits max if they don't use Defend, correct? This is one of the reasons why Spamton NEO in Snowgrave is much, much harder compared to the normal route one, because of you being forced to solo it with just Kris without the help of the other party members. Besides, Sans' attacks don't even kill instantly like you're making it seem, they take just really fast, but it's not instantaneous.

That feat yeah!

I fail to see how that brings anything on the table, the issue is that we don't know what happened remotely for it to qualify for anything. Like, sure Asgore was in the front lines, but how can you prove that he dodged anything, rather than just tanking everything and play in defense, how do you know that his attacks weren't trivialized by the humans in the war, how do you know if he even harmed someone there? The only thing we know about the war is that it couldn't even be called one but was just a one-sided massacre where no human died at all, there's no real skill feat that Asgore could have.

Dying to Sans like over 15 times is also something thats possible to achieve. So is getting hit and having the trophy. If you are ignoring UT’s skill feats and then taking this as proof for DT then you are being biased right now.

The problem is that Frisk could have killed Sans at their first try in canon too.

Remember that here we take the fighters at the peak potential, meaning that regardless of using Frisk or the Fun Gang, we'd be using the versions that no hit the bosses as that's what matters for our purposes in the wiki, why would we take a version of Susie that performs worse than her peak in-game? It's also like saying that Frisk cannot no-hit Sans in canon, which is just untrue.

Ig I’ll vote Sans due to being able to dodge and Susie not having a way to break the battle box the same way Chara/Frisk did.

She doesn't even need to, though. Even then, the Fun Gang was able to outlast King, and Sans himself says that he'd be only a matter of time before he's hit, Chara breaking the battle box only sped up his demise.

Cuz I’m pretty sure the Battle Board/Box is canon in UNDERTALE

It's not, that has been attempted several times here and was rejected simply because it's too inconsistent with cutscenes such as the Undyne chase or how the bosses would magically become 5+ meters tall if they directly attack the battle box (Asgore and Asriel).

so there ain’t any Defend buttons nor grazing

Game mechanics are also canon in Deltarune as Ralsei mentions SAVEs, something that has been confirmed as canon in TRK fight, and he does explain all the buttons in Ch 1. Not to mentions that he talked about SAVEs in brackets, which were confirmed in Ch 4 to be thoughts that only the Player can see.

Even then, Susie is absolutely getting Grazing and Defend, given how Verse Equalization works:

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses. For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses. It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess. However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, consistently shown throughout its use (such as not working on characters under a specific condition, like energy gap) or stated by a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization.

Equalization works highly on a case-by-case basis, so many relevant cases should be discussed in the versus thread itself.

Undertale and Deltarune have similar enough battle mechanics for both to be equalized (Battle Box, turns, bullet hell, etc.), meaning that restricting Susie's mechanics to Undertale's would mean to restrict her for no reason (even then Defend would be equalized as just an ACT in Undertale, Frisk pretty much can emulate that stuff by using Hope after all).

 

[Qurbonboev]

Ig I’ll vote Sans due to being able to dodge and Susie not having a way to break the battle box the same way Chara/Frisk did.

Both of them are able to dodge. But Susie has experience of dodging difficult danmaku. Sans doesn't have experience of facing equally fast opponent with weird spatial hax(where attacks just spawns on top of you).

I would personally place Jevil, Knight and Gerson a bit below Sans in terms of danmaku difficulty. Now, compare Susie to Genocide Frisk:

• Has 230 HP vs 99 HP Frisk(So unless she literally fell asleep, she wouldn't get oneshotted)
• Has unlimited powerful healing spells
• Has much easier time with landing hits(weird melee attacks of Susie with 10 m range vs Frisk just swinging their knife)

"Not having a way to break the battle box". Sans used this move only after using all attacks and exhausting himself fully. And he won't be able to dodge attacks if he exhausted.

I’d also like to know how exactly TP would work here. Cuz I’m pretty sure the Battle Board/Box is canon in UNDERTALE so there ain’t any Defend buttons nor grazing

Frisk can't use Defend or grazing since they don't have it. Susie can use them because she have it. Or do you think that any magical user won't be able to use magic against Sans, cus there is no magic button in Undertale?

 

[Poketmonsrs]

She doesn't even need to, though. Even then, the Fun Gang was able to outlast King, and Sans himself says that he'd be only a matter of time before he's hit, Chara breaking the battle box only sped up his demise.

Sure he admits he’d die if the battle continued, thats why didn’t let it continue and used his special attack. Sans did dodge the first attack, but Chara broke the Battle Box (Specifically talking about how they attacked twice, not moving the Battle Box towards Fight), something Sans didn’t expect, granted Susie could do something similar like in the Gerson fight to distract Sans, but he’s probably gonna be a bit more wary of dying than Gerson is of getting a haircut

It's not, that has been attempted several times here and was rejected simply because it's too inconsistent with cutscenes such as the Undyne chase or how the bosses would magically become 5+ meters tall if they directly attack the battle box (Asgore and Asriel).

Oh really? Huh

Game mechanics are also canon in Deltarune as Ralsei mentions SAVEs, something that has been confirmed as canon in TRK fight, and he does explain all the buttons in Ch 1. Not to mentions that he talked about SAVEs in brackets, which were confirmed in Ch 4 to be thoughts that only the Player can see.

Even then, Susie is absolutely getting Grazing and Defend, given how Verse Equalization works:
Undertale and Deltarune have similar enough battle mechanics for both to be equalized (Battle Box, turns, bullet hell, etc.), meaning that restricting Susie's mechanics to Undertale's would mean to restrict her for no reason (even then Defend would be equalized as just an ACT in Undertale, Frisk pretty much can emulate that stuff by using Hope after all).

Yeah if the Battle Box equalizes then yeah Susie gets grazing and Defending and whatnot

Both of them are able to dodge. But Susie has experience of dodging difficult danmaku. Sans doesn't have experience of facing equally fast opponent with weird spatial hax(where attacks just spawns on top of you).

Weren’t you the one who said he’d dodge? Also considering his Genius to Extraordinary Genius intelligence, I’d say he’d understand the mechanics of the attack pretty quickly

I would personally place Jevil, Knight and Gerson a bit below Sans in terms of danmaku difficulty. Now, compare Susie to Genocide Frisk:

• Has 230 HP vs 99 HP Frisk(So unless she literally fell asleep, she wouldn't get oneshotted)
• Has unlimited powerful healing spells
• Has much easier time with landing hits(weird melee attacks of Susie with 10 m range vs Frisk just swinging their knife)

While Susie having unlimited healing is nice, she still need TP and an entire turn, giving Sans some rest, don’t think its really that noteworthy tho. While the HP thing is nice, what’s she gonna do against Sans’ special attack

"Not having a way to break the battle box". Sans used this move only after using all attacks and exhausting himself fully. And he won't be able to dodge attacks if he exhausted.

IA and he already managed to dodge while exhausted, he only got hit due to Chara breaking the Battle Box (hitting twice in a turn)

Frisk can't use Defend or grazing since they don't have it. Susie can use them because she have it. Or do you think that any magical user won't be able to use magic against Sans, cus there is no magic button in Undertale?

Yeah fair. In hindsight probably should have thought of something like that

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sure he admits he’d die if the battle continued, thats why didn’t let it continue and used his special attack. Sans did dodge the first attack, but Chara broke the Battle Box (Specifically talking about how they attacked twice, not moving the Battle Box towards Fight), something Sans didn’t expect, granted Susie could do something similar like in the Gerson fight to distract Sans, but he’s probably gonna be a bit more wary of dying than Gerson is of getting a haircut

Your argument on why Susie will never be able to hit Sans falls apart the moment you aknowledged the fact that Sans admitted it himself. Sans had no idea that Chara can break the battle system, he expected Chara to simply be able to hit him once he's too tired to dodge normally.

Weren’t you the one who said he’d dodge? Also considering his Genius to Extraordinary Genius intelligence, I’d say he’d understand the mechanics of the attack pretty quickly

I mean no shit, but Susie can also hit Jevil who constantly teleports and moves around in his fight, I'd say she has better chances than a toddler with no magic who was restricted to melee weapons.

 

[Qurbonboev]

Weren’t you the one who said he’d dodge? Also considering his Genius to Extraordinary Genius intelligence, I’d say he’d understand the mechanics of the attack pretty quickly

I said he would probably dodge several times(2-5) out of 10 times. Her hits are more difficult to dodge than anything he faced previously.

Sure he admits he’d die if the battle continued, thats why didn’t let it continue and used his special attack

He used only after fully exhausting himself. If battle goes that long, he would die before reaching that point.

While Susie having unlimited healing is nice, she still need TP and an entire turn, giving Sans some rest, don’t think its really that noteworthy tho. While the HP thing is nice, what’s she gonna do against Sans’ special attack

Almost every Sans attack would give copious amount of TP. And her heals give more HP than any UT items.
Us spending turns on healing items doesn't let Sans rest that much, he still exhausts after 23 turns

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Your argument on why Susie will never be able to hit Sans falls apart the moment you aknowledged the fact that Sans admitted it himself. Sans had no idea that Chara can break the battle system, he expected Chara to simply be able to hit him once he's too tired to dodge normally.

i know i can't beat you.
one of your turns...
you're just gonna kill me.
so, uh.
i've decided...
it's not gonna BE your turn. ever.
i'm just gonna keep having MY turn until you give up.

I think the "you're going to eventually kill" is pretty clearly referring to if they continued fighting normally, and the Special Attack is his way of preventing that, ya know

 

[Poketmonsrs]

Your argument on why Susie will never be able to hit Sans falls apart the moment you aknowledged the fact that Sans admitted it himself. Sans had no idea that Chara can break the battle system, he expected Chara to simply be able to hit him once he's too tired to dodge normally.

I’m not saying Sans would dodge Susie forever, I’m saying Susie can’t get past Sans’ special attack. Susie doesn’t attack twice and I don’t know if she could move the Battle Box. If she can attack twice in a turn or move the Battle Box, then yeah I’d say Susie wins

 

[Qurbonboev]

I’m not saying Sans would dodge Susie forever, I’m saying Susie can’t get past Sans’ special attack. Susie doesn’t attack twice and I don’t know if she could move the Battle Box. If she can attack twice in a turn or move the Battle Box, then yeah I’d say Susie wins

1. Sans uses special attack only after 23 turns. He either kills her or gets hitted long before that point.
2. Sans using special attack is incon btw

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think the "you're going to eventually kill" is pretty clearly referring to if they continued fighting normally, and the Special Attack is his way of preventing that, ya know

It's literally what I said, though?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

1. Sans uses special attack only after 23 turns. He either kills her or gets hitted long before that point.

He's going to use it as soon as he realizes he's not winning by normal means, so like as soon as he gets tired.
And like if he's dodging her first attack, I don't see why he wouldn't do the same to the other 22.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Actually since sans TPs you to the middle of the box if you try to move it while he's still awake, I don't think moving the box is anything special

 

[Poketmonsrs]

2. Sans using special attack is incon btw

Really? I thought it’d be incap

Actually since sans TPs you to the middle of the box if you try to move it while he's still awake, I don't think moving the box is anything special

Then ig I’ll vote Susie. Even if she can’t attack twice, idk what Sans’ can do after the special attack. Surround the Battle Box in bones?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Really? I thought it’d be incap

Sans himself cannot do anything either, can't move, attack, nothing. It's why he can extend his turn in the first place.

 

[Redite250]

Susie dodging sneak attack, and dodging attack of SoJ in full darkness. Both against opponents with similar speed, unlike Sans who faced only slower opponents.

You're absolutely right about those, I just think saying Susie no hitting the knight is not a feat for her lol. The context for it just screams that it's only possible due to soul, and I don't think anyone else should get credit for that specifically

 

[Steve1775]

Who is cooler between both of them

 

[StrymULTRA]

Who is cooler between both of them

Susie, obviously.

 

[Steve1775]

Susie, obviously.

Idk, Prime Sans was just built different. I don't think any deltarune characters can top him

 

[StrymULTRA]

Idk, Prime Sans was just built different. I don't think any deltarune characters can top him

Sans can only dream of having the character development Susie has

 

[Steve1775]

Sans can only dream of having the character development Susie has

Agenda and Aura >>>>>>>> Character Development

 

[StrymULTRA]

Agenda and Aura >>>>>>>> Character Development

 

[Redite250]

Sans can only dream of having the character development Susie has

Sans has no character development because by Undertale he's already a fully developed character, but he does his job in the story very well.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sans has no character development because by Undertale he's already a fully developed character, but he does his job in the story very well.

I mean, this isn't really a reason on why he'd be better written than characters who shine through buildup and development, though-

 

[Poketmonsrs]

Idk, Prime Sans was just built different. I don't think any deltarune characters can top him

The original
‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ Starwalker

 

[StrymULTRA]

When is OP counting votes tho :#

 

[Qurbonboev]

He's going to use it as soon as he realizes he's not winning by normal means, so like as soon as he gets tired.
And like if he's dodging her first attack, I don't see why he wouldn't do the same to the other 22.

He used it after getting fully exhausted to point of getting sleepy in minutes in actual fight, see no reason why would he behave different this time.
Again, there is huge difference between Frisk attacks and Susie attacks. Her attacks are miles more difficult to dodge

 

[LittleGuy99]

Agenda and Aura >>>>>>>> Character Development

Susie has both

 

[Redite250]

I mean, this isn't really a reason on why he'd be better written than characters who shine through buildup and development, though-

Well, you could say that a character who has better development is better, but characters are really just tools, and if the point of a character isn't to have an arc, I don't see why they can't be better written than others. Writing a character with a good development is hard and rewarding because it means writing a character in different ways, in different points of the story, and making the difference seem natural. In a sense, Sans does have that, he reacts to your actions, remarkably becoming colder the more evil actions you commit, though it is even more difficult to achieve something like this in Undertale since it doesn't have the same story progression as Deltarune, which is more like a common story separated by chapters, while Undertale is more all over the place. The culmination of Sans' "development" would be in the genocide route, where he finally stops being lazy and actually does something to try and stop you, despite knowing it's futile. Though remarkably that arc doesn't really have a conclusion: Sans either dies, or you could reset and undo his development, with some comments from past Sans that indicate he "knows" what you did. Sans is a very complex character, much more so than Susie in my opinion, altough yes, she definitely has a more visible and better development in Deltarune due to its episodic nature. Though I do think Susie is one of the best character's Toby's ever written, I still think Sans is the goat. That could change though, Deltarune isn't finished yet! Susie has more space to develop even further, and so does Sans, except the spotlight isn't on him in this story.

Having said that, I think I'll vote for Susie here. This is sort of just Frisk vs Sans except a stronger frisk, right? Well, not stronger in regards to power, but just, she has more HP, I guess. Though she doesn't have the soul to help her dodge, idk. I might change my vote later.

 

[Qurbonboev]

When is OP counting votes tho :#

Counted it all

 

[Kellex]

Counted it all

Their votes are in the wrong spots :^p

 

[Qurbonboev]

Their votes are in the wrong spots :^p

My bad.
Why are you voting for, and the reasons

 

[Kellex]

My bad.
Why are you voting for, and the reasons

I'm heavily leaning towards Susie for reasons above, but I wanna see what ShionAH has to say.

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Sans losing to the Roaring Fraud, then jevil, and now fighting for his life against susie, the falloff might be generational /j

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sans losing to the Roaring Fraud, then jevil, and now fighting for his life against susie, the falloff might be generational /j

Nah it's just power creep, it happens.

 

[Ztesrxgdfjcvgkbh]

Sans FRA

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Sans FRA

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Sans losing to the Roaring Fraud, then jevil, and now fighting for his life against susie, the falloff might be generational /j

Aye aye, he beat Spamton NEO pretty decisively so pattern can't be established

Also Sans beating Spamton and losing to Susie would be hella weird

 

[Catbowtie]

Sans FRA

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Wait, why do we consider no-hitting TRK as definitive canon just because it gives unique text. We can do same for UT that acknowledges no-healing and no-saving Neutral Route and Sans beating Frisk 12+ times or smth.
Also no-hit text for TRK will still appear even if you don't no-hit the final attack and UT technically recognizes no-hitting the Credits fight which is arguably harder to no-hit than TRK

 

[Qurbonboev]

Also Sans beating Spamton and losing to Susie would be hella weird

Why. This version of Susie is thousands times stronger than SNEO.

Sans FRA

Counted

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Why. This version of Susie is thousands times stronger than SNEO.

They both one-shot Sans so it's not like it matters, it's just that Susie is way less versatile and goated compared to Spamton tbh