Jujutsu Kaisen Discussion Page #1

[Legion350]

"Naoya, who had already surpassed subsonic speed." is the statement
So he's beyond subsonic which would be transonic

Yes, but Transonic is like Mach 0.8 to 1.2. In fact you can make a vapor cone below the speed of sound, if you're close enough.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Yes, but Transonic is like Mach 0.8 to 1.2.

Yea, which wouldn't really matter irc since even using 1.1 would make him without PS be ~15.72m/s which is still superhuman and below BoS Yuji feat.

The debunk imo isn't really a debunk, it's just highlighting how stupid the cap really is lol, it already is inconsistent with feats showed eitherway, should just be removed atp but people won't let it go

 

[DragoZeroNova]

*0.9 to 1.1

Speed

Speed is simply how fast a character can move in a given amount of time. There are five types of speed used for VS purposes: Attack Speed, Combat Speed, Reaction Speed, Travel Speed, and Flight Speed. The term "Speed" normally refers to Combat Speed. The speed at which an attack moves. For...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Legion350]

Yeah, Naoya would still only be Superhuman without projection sorcery based on based on any degree of transonic speed he moved at. I'm not arguing this makes him Subsonic. My point is that by applying to cap the verse at low end Superhuman, you're ignoring even more explicit feats than that, and using that as basis for everyone. Bc, Yuji running at 16.67 m/s [without cursed energy] is stated more clearly than the Naoya transonic thing.

*0.9 to 1.1

Speed

Speed is simply how fast a character can move in a given amount of time. There are five types of speed used for VS purposes: Attack Speed, Combat Speed, Reaction Speed, Travel Speed, and Flight Speed. The term "Speed" normally refers to Combat Speed. The speed at which an attack moves. For...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Also, just wanted to point out that's a VSBW only thing as far as I can tell. I've seen sources saying transonic flow [which causes vapor cones] is generally within the 0.8-1.2 range.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

NGL people might have to change me from big subsonic to big superhuman. I'd say superhuman is consistent even with the projection sorcery punch barrages being slow as f*ck, yet they're still relevant to even someone like "physically gifted" Maki

Hanami's Retrosonic Buds

vsbattles.fandom.com

Consistent with those metas, and slower than I remembered. Feels bad but JJK was even slower than I thought the second time around. Bros' are just slow as f*ck

I just did a rough calc for this feat:

Naoya is punching at Maki. Each punch is happening in 1/24th of a second, and the entire move is moving from fully extending his arm to punch to bringing it back to his right shoulder, kinda like this


So somoene's wing span = their height, roughly.
Arm length and shoulder to shoulder length are all roughly 1/3 of wing span, so 1/3 of height roughly.

Naoya is about as tall as Choso, so 1.74 m height.

Assuming this is what he's doing, Naoya is roughly moving the green line here in 1/24th of a second, as that is what projection sorcery does:


So he's roughly moving his fist through 2/3 of his height. Sice it's an arc motion, **** it, lets highball it to 4/5ths of his height. That distance is crossed in exactly 1/24th of a second, so the math is:

Speed = (4/5 {percentage of his height each punch hypothetically moved} * 1.74 m) / (1/24) = 33.408 m/s

So being generous, eyeballing, we get Naoya's attack speed vs Maki here at 33.408 m/s, and this can't even be debated because we know that the timeframe is exactly 1/24th of a second.

TLDR: Naoya Zen'in saw it OK to attack Maki, who he already knew wiped out the rest of the Hei filled with capable semi-grade 1 to grade 1 sorcerers with generously Superhuman+ speeds.

That is just absurd, and consistent with other things in the series, like those Hanami retrosonic bud calcs. Also I'm not saying this should be everyone, but like your average grade 1 shouldn't break past 200 m/s considering this. It's my explanation @Duedate8898.

Also the idea would be that anytime anyone reacts to a supersonic attack, the thing is moving predictably in a straight line, and the preson who dodges or reacts to said supersonic attack is doing so from a distance, and temporarily uses reinforcement to amp their movement speed to be capable of dodging said object, while normally having attack speed and reactions far inferior, staying consistent with this terrible attack speed being relevant to grade 1s.

Like Kenjaku's feats of reacting to PB, they're from about 10 meters way. So the reaction time to react to that is around 343 / 10 or about 34 m/s reaction times, but that's still enough to temporarily amp oneself to near transonic movement speed in time to dodge, while just having those 34 m/s reaction and combat speeds. I concede this is very like theory-esque territory, and you could say the superhuman speeds shit is just outliers or something, but I'd say it's an OK personal offsite interpretation. As for the other feats, like Maki reacting to rubber bullets, the rubber bullets could be as slow as you want, and Gege said the feats were exaggerated anyways so we probably shouldn't drwa the most conclusions from this stuff.

Also stuff like Maki tagging mach 3 fits into this because once she knew the mach 3 speeds were coming at a straight line, super predictably, she could unleash an unusually fast punch since she knew the mach 3 speeds were coming and where they were coming, as to not say it's inconsistent panneling which is valid too.

Wake up, dear. Superhuman meta is back

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

Is the speed of sound thing for Cursed Naoya or as a Human? Because the imgur scan from his page shows this is during the fight against cursed Naoya.

All of them except for the last one are cursed naoya from what I can tell. Last one is the surpassing subsonic statement from his human fight

 

[Mr.Cinos15]

 

[Legion350]

All of them except for the last one are cursed naoya from what I can tell. Last one is the surpassing subsonic statement from his human fight

Thanks, I'm going to post a response in the projection sorcery thread this evening then. Just wanted to make sure I had all of the context before I was strongly against or for something.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Yeah, Naoya would still only be Superhuman without projection sorcery based on based on any degree of transonic speed he moved at. I'm not arguing this makes him Subsonic. My point is that by applying to cap the verse at low end Superhuman, you're ignoring even more explicit feats than that, and using that as basis for everyone. Bc, Yuji running at 16.67 m/s [without cursed energy] is stated more clearly than the Naoya transonic thing.

I mean yea fair, I do agree capping at superhuman makes no sense, but capping naoya and basically everyone at transonic - mach 3 also makes no sense imo, I choose on both being wrong and just remove any cap

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

With cap or not, there will be no MHS+

 

[Arkenis]

Some people won't allow this I can feel it, since as a cursed womb is when he reaches supersonic speeds according to maki

Bro said according to the wiki like we made the statement lmao, blame Maki bro

 

[DragoZeroNova]

Yeah, Naoya would still only be Superhuman without projection sorcery based on based on any degree of transonic speed he moved at. I'm not arguing this makes him Subsonic. My point is that by applying to cap the verse at low end Superhuman, you're ignoring even more explicit feats than that, and using that as basis for everyone. Bc, Yuji running at 16.67 m/s [without cursed energy] is stated more clearly than the Naoya transonic thing.


Also, just wanted to point out that's a VSBW only thing as far as I can tell. I've seen sources saying transonic flow [which causes vapor cones] is generally within the 0.8-1.2 range.

Yeah, but you could say the same about a lot of tiers on this website. Plenty of stuff on the wiki is arbitrary.

 

[Rodriiogo]

With cap or not, there will be no MHS+

True, it will be MHS, not MHS+

 

[Rodriiogo]

Bro said according to the wiki like we made the statement lmao, blame Maki bro

I did say according to Maki?

 

[AbaddonTheDisappointment]

True, it will be MHS, not MHS+

Genuinely what calcs we got for dudes who aren’t literal top tiers to be mhs/mhs+ or is it just Gojo/sukuna

 

[LaserPrecision]

Genuinely what calcs we got for dudes who aren’t literal top tiers to be mhs/mhs+ or is it just Gojo/sukuna

Bro forgot about Dabura

 

[Rodriiogo]

Genuinely what calcs we got for dudes who aren’t literal top tiers to be mhs/mhs+ or is it just Gojo/sukuna

Idk I'm just spitballing for the lols, probably hakari's? The main reason why the idea of it being a perspective shot came from it making no sense BECAUSE of Naoya's statements so if that awful cap gets removed, it'd prob be usable again, however it'd prob still be better on waiting for the anime on that since it ain't that far ig.

I still think that feat with Toji and the rabbits should be higher than "supersonic+" but idk if it is MHS

Yuta's feat on blitzing that curse on S3EP1 is prob MHS icl

 

[Rodriiogo]

And, I know it ain't relevant to the top tiers/heavy hitters but, depending on how the Calc Group Discussion on sukuna's feat goes, Shibuya Mahoraga will have MHS Combat speed via being able to literally box sukuna's dismantles so like

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

And, I know it ain't relevant to the top tiers/heavy hitters but, depending on how the Calc Group Discussion on sukuna's feat goes, Shibuya Mahoraga will have MHS Combat speed via being able to literally box sukuna's dismantles so like

Untamed Adapated Raga blitzes Heavy Hitter tiers, high-key so like it don't matter if mhs

 

[Legion350]

Yeah, but you could say the same about a lot of tiers on this website. Plenty of stuff on the wiki is arbitrary.

I finally posted in the thread. Anyways, like I said I'm not debating whether he is Transonic or not. That was a response to someone else bringing up the speed page. Basically, I was trying to say it doesn't make to mass downgrade the verse based on Naoya, when
1. We don't have a specific value for his speed [meaning we are setting hard caps based on an indeterminate value we've guess-timated]
2. Is heavily contradicted [b y feats and statements]
3. The thread never justifies why or why not we consider his speed without a technique to be a benchmark when he's only known for his speed with that technique.

 

[Rodriiogo]

Untamed Adapated Raga blitzes Heavy Hitter tiers, high-key so like it don't matter if mhs

Ehh I doubt that but it's impossible to make any line of scaling between mahoraga and the heavy hitters via what the story says so I won't argue, it won't matter but still cool

It could tho work as supporting if stuff like the Hakari feats happens considering CG Yuji and Maki keep up with 10% 15F Sukuna

 

[Rodriiogo]

We genuinely reached a point where superhuman JJK is more possible than just removing that nonsense "transonic - mach 3" cap I'm crine, all that over gege not knowing what to do

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I'm deadass I want the "Nothing ever happens" to get accepted cuz I'm too lazy to update the profiles

 

[Rodriiogo]

I'm deadass I want the "Nothing ever happens" to get accepted cuz I'm too lazy to update the profiles

Tbf the removing all caps would also not change the profiles for now since we'd need calcs to be made before anything, it'd just mean the verse is actually open for calcs above mach 3

 

[Duedate8898]

The verse has been open to calcs above Mach 3 for a while now. Naoya and Naobito limit so few actual people and I'm annoyed this has been dug up for no good reason cause either nothing changes because of it or we have to throw out a good chunk of the speed calcs again for not even a direct statement this time.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Tbf the removing all caps would also not change the profiles for now since we'd need calcs to be made before anything, it'd just mean the verse is actually open for calcs above mach 3

There's a good chunk of speed feats that were removed long ago that are already accepted math wise, like Hanami's tree moving at transonic/supersonic speed

 

[LaserPrecision]

The verse has been open to calcs above Mach 3 for a while now. Naoya and Naobito limit so few actual people and I'm annoyed this has been dug up for no good reason cause either nothing changes because of it or we have to throw out a good chunk of the speed calcs again for not even a direct statement this time.

The issue is moreso the logic. Naoya should not be able to perception blitz someone 1.1x slower than himself from like 14 meters away (or whatever the new calculation says). It just makes zero sense these people he's barely listed as above to be like 10% slower.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

The issue is moreso the logic. Naoya should not be able to perception blitz someone 1.1x slower than himself from like 14 meters away (or whatever the new calculation says). It just makes zero sense these people he's barely listed as above to be like 10% slower.

Tbh idk where are you getting this 1.1x. The current value for slower characters is mach 0.35

 

[Rodriiogo]

The verse has been open to calcs above Mach 3 for a while now. Naoya and Naobito limit so few actual people and I'm annoyed this has been dug up for no good reason cause either nothing changes because of it or we have to throw out a good chunk of the speed calcs again for not even a direct statement this time.

Not really + naoya and naobito actually limit the entire verse other than 4-5 people if the chain-scaling gets fixed.

Awakened Maki was still below the "Speed of sound" naoya in speed. JP Hakari and Yuta are both comparable to this same Maki and they are heavy hitters, alongside Yuta being directly compared to Yuki in speed who can very much keep up with Kenjaku.

So A.Maki, Yuta, Yuki, JP Hakari and Kenjaku should all be below mach 1 if the cap exists.

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

You should delete the part in the OP where you talk about that 14m/s math because that part makes no sense

Tempest is suggesting 24m/s to a bit higher via Projection Sorcery so idk. I will see how it develops before anything despiste thinking it doesn't make sense

 

[Rodriiogo]

Not really + naoya and naobito actually limit the entire verse other than 4-5 people if the chain-scaling gets fixed.

Awakened Maki was still below the "Speed of sound" naoya in speed. JP Hakari and Yuta are both comparable to this same Maki and they are heavy hitters, alongside Yuta being directly compared to Yuki in speed who can very much keep up with Kenjaku.

So A.Maki, Yuta, Yuki, JP Hakari and Kenjaku should all be below mach 1 if the cap exists.

The only reason the verse hasn't been fully capped is because of that cope mechanism that is called "reaction speed" (the Mach 4.6 kenjaku feat) which is just the """Narrative""" merchants trying to act like their mach 3 cap is consistent even with the higher feats as if Maki's reactions also weren't blitzed by mach 1 Naoya, not just combat speed.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Tbh idk where are you getting this 1.1x. The current value for slower characters is mach 0.35

Lots of feats got calc'd that were sent in the thread earlier that get to like Mach 0.86 or whatever and within that general ballpark (some lower some hight maybe, I can't remember).

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

I wish I was a mod. I would delete half of the comments in that thread

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Lots of feats got calc'd that were sent in the thread earlier that get to like Mach 0.86 or whatever and within that general ballpark (some lower some hight maybe, I can't remember).

I think you're talking about the subsonic calcs I showed and the highest was Mach 0.69 from 120% yuji/Mahito/Todo

 

[LaserPrecision]

I think you're talking about the subsonic calcs I showed and the highest was Mach 0.69 from 120% yuji/Mahito/Todo

I thought Elj sent one that was Mach 0.8 smth but maybe I'm misremembering. Either way, the difference is laughably small for how much faster he's depicted.

 

[Duedate8898]

The issue is moreso the logic. Naoya should not be able to perception blitz someone 1.1x slower than himself from like 14 meters away (or whatever the new calculation says). It just makes zero sense these people he's barely listed as above to be like 10% slower.

The issue is that people keep ignoring how characters consistently point out the problem with tracking them doesn't have to do with just the speed its literally the manner in which their techinque works that messes people up.

Projection Sorcerer literally changes their framerate to people, that's why Naoya and Naobito blitzes people because the pair aren't moving as something is naturally supposed to move as far as eyes can normally see.

The issue isn't the speed, it's the manner in which the speed is working. Its why amping your perception isn't enough to work by itself i.e. Choso. Because you also have to understand how their movements are being broken up.

Hence why Maki counts Naoya's movements and has to deliberate on it for however long she does.

 

[LaserPrecision]

The issue is that people keep ignoring how characters consistently point out the problem with tracking them doesn't have to do with just the speed its literally the manner in which their techinque works that messes people up.

Projection Sorcerer literally changes their framerate to people, that's why Naoya and Naobito blitzes people because the pair aren't moving as something is naturally supposed to move as far as eyes can normally see.

The issue isn't the speed, it's the manner in which the speed is working. Its why amping your perception isn't enough to work by itself i.e. Choso. Because you also have to understand how their movements are being broken up.

Hence why Maki counts Naoya's movements and has to deliberate on it for however long she does.

All the movements do is make their movements harder to read. But that wouldn't result in them literally perception blitzing Yuji and Choso like Naoya did from 14 meters away. Whereas Maki was able to Parry and clash with Naoya's blows while counting from up close.

That's not just a matter of their movements being broken up, they are just so much faster they can vanish to the other characters. If they weren't that much faster, they wouldn't be getting perception blitzed from far away, they would be able to keep track of them the entire time, but have trouble with understanding how deliberate their movements are. What Naoya did isn't possible with only like a 10% difference in speed. He'd have to be way faster.

 

[Duedate8898]

I think what you're failing to also recognize is that everyone is typically aware that something is super off about the manner in which Naoya and Naobito are moving. Nanami and Choso both immideately comment about something being wrong with how they move. If they couldn't perceive them how would they know this?

 

[LaserPrecision]

I think what you're failing to also recognize is that everyone is typically aware that something is super off about the manner in which Naoya and Naobito are moving. Nanami and Choso both immideately comment about something being wrong with how they move. If they couldn't perceive them how would they know this?

Naobito and Naoya holding back or noticing them accelerate (and then decelerate) damn near instantly from Point A to Point B. Idk, it could be any number of things. But it's quite clear that Naobito and Naoya can perception blitz these peeps if they want to considering they have.

 

[Legion350]

Btw, do we only consider Naobito’s statement of being the fastest sorcerer as only applying to Grade 1 and below?