Re:Zero Moon+ Calc Downgrade

[Arkenis]

If hax is the issue I think calculating the kinetic energy of Reinhard splitting the planet and it sliding after he actually swings (using manga visuals) might be better at this point and usable. Whilst the act of it splitting can be from dura negating hax the force of the two pieces moving up and down wouldn’t be from any of Reinhard’s hax.

Wanted to confirm if anyone had any issue with that before doing it.

Can we see the manga visuals?

 

[MrTayman616]

If hax is the issue I think calculating the kinetic energy of Reinhard splitting the planet and it sliding after he actually swings (using manga visuals) might be better at this point and usable. Whilst the act of it splitting can be from dura negating hax the force of the two pieces moving up and down wouldn’t be from any of Reinhard’s hax.

Wanted to confirm if anyone had any issue with that before doing it.

He didn't really cut down the entire planet. (Also, there is no such thing as cutting the planet in the manga as far as i'm aware, just slashes the clouds a little)

 

[PhantomØ4]

Can we see the manga visuals?

He didn't really cut down the entire planet. (Also, there is no such thing as cutting the planet in the manga as far as i'm aware, just slashes the clouds a little)

The novel tells us the slice split the world though and i have seen several statements that repeat a swordsman like Rein and Reid can do as much, so we kinda know it happened. Puck becoming ueneven would be the natural result from the two parts moving up and down, you’d need to make more assumptions otherwise.

Also, I’d argue that Reinhard possibly using hax to split the clouds is not a given. With manga visuals I’d say at worst the rating should fall to a likely whatever the calc yields.

 

[Arkenis]

Can you further prove splitting the world is in reference to the entire world and not just the "world" within the area? Or what does the kanji say for the novel?

 

[MrTayman616]

The novel tells us the slice split the world though and i have seen several statements that repeat a swordsman like ren and reid can do as much, so we knd know it happened. Puck becoming ueneven would be the natural result from the two parts moving up and down, you’d need to make moreassumptions otherwise.

Those refer to cutting space as far as i know. Reinhard has done this slash many times, and is something some transcendent can do in Re:Zero like Reid(It's his technique lol) and Cecilus. The same explanation is given over and over.

Also, we can't use the manga panels for that when it didn't happen in it. Reinhard doesn't appear to slash the planet itself neither in anime and manga, even novel isn't really clear about it actually slashing the entire planet.

 

[Arkenis]

Are these all just canon for re:zero also?

 

[MrTayman616]

Are these all just canon for re:zero also?

As far as i know, novel is the canon, but anime and manga is used as well. Though we don't apply different scenes as the same.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Uhhh I dunno. I don't enough enough about source material to go back and forth. That was just a possible option. I still don't think the cloud parting should be discarded over a possibility of hax being the cause, specially when we have the manga to show us it was a regular split. At worst, without counting the manga, it should be a probably rating.

I don't have thoughts on the actual assumptions used.

 

[Arkenis]

I don't think it's a possibility of hax ngl. We're straight up told he erased Puck with the same slash and this same slash ended and rebirthed the world. And considering the hax, these aren't hyperbolic.

 

[PhantomØ4]

I don't think it's a possibility of hax ngl. We're straight up told he erased Puck with the same slash and this same slash ended and rebirthed the world. And considering the hax, these aren't hyperbolic.

Puck is like several meters across though, and from all adaptations it appears to be from the beam which isn’t hundreds of kilometers across, let alone thousands of kilometers across.

 

[MrTayman616]

Actually in the manga, the clouds move but not the entire mass, they're slashed and then slowly move apart. In the anime, We don't see it being the case as well, the clouds move but clearly not all mass or similar to the way in the calc. The LN doesn't say anything about pushing them or anything as far as i'm aware.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Actually in the manga, the clouds move but not the entire mass, they're slashed and then slowly move apart. In the anime, We don't see it being the case in the anime as well, the clouds move but clearly not all mass or similar to the way in the calc. The LN doesn't say anything about pushing them or anything as far as i'm aware.

Obviously primary canon takes precedence. I am saying that hax being the reason they are parted is not a certainty either, the beam is the only thing that seems to actually erase stuff— assuming that he just EE’d the entire snowstorm would be upgrading Reinhard’s EE AoE to hundreds of thousands if not millions of km^2 which I think it’s an even worse assumption.

At the end of the day assuming he haxed the entire snowstorm away for is an assumption. I am just using the secondary canon to say it’s unlikely given the beam itself is what carries the hax.

 

[Arkenis]

Puck is like several meters across though, and from all adaptations it appears to be from the beam which isn’t hundreds of kilometers across, let alone thousands of kilometers across.

Adaptation just get it wrong or shouldn’t be taken as evidence here tbf. But regardless we don’t have proof he split the whole world, and the anime and manga just don’t show the clouds pushed how far initially calced.

Obviously primary canon takes precedence. I am saying that hax being the reason they are parted is not a certainty either, the beam is the only thing that seems to actually erase stuff— assuming that he just EE’d the entire snowstorm would be upgrading Reinhard’s EE AoE to hundreds of thousands if not millions of km^2 which I think it’s an even worse assumption.

At the end of the day assuming he haxed the entire snowstorm away for is an assumption. I am just using the secondary canon to say it’s unlikely given the beam itself is what carries the hax.

Why can’t the ee have just spread from the initial attack? Doesn’t gotta be the highest interpretation here.

Personally, I prefer if the calc were just what is known and shown if we are still taking the feat.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Do I really have to explain why making an assumption that the EE AoE spreads from the initial attack is unjustified? A mechanic you’d be making up and would still end up giving reinhard a massive upgrade to his EE AoE. You’re making extra assumptions to justify not using the simplest reasonable explanation.

It’s a bit ironic that you say the calc should use what is known and shown and arguing the clouds weren’t parted because of a mechanic that is neither known nor was ever shown.

Also, yes, the adaptation can get it wrong but it’s not proven to be wrong… we are putting forth interpretations and your interpretation makes less sense due to contradicting the secondary canon that actually has visuals.

 

[MrTayman616]

assuming that he just EE’d the entire snowstorm would be upgrading Reinhard’s EE AoE to hundreds of thousands if not millions of km^2 which I think it’s an even worse assumption.

A mechanic you’d be making up and would still end up giving reinhard a massive upgrade to his EE AoE.

Actually, his profile accepts it to be the case. Thousands of kilometers radius EE which is also used a lot in his versus battles. (Like, WOW)

 

[PhantomØ4]

Do I really have to explain why making an assumption that the EE AoE spreads from the initial attack is unjustified? A mechanic you’d be making up and would still end up giving reinhard a massive upgrade to his EE AoE. You’re making extra assumptions to justify not using the simplest reasonable explanation.

It’s a bit ironic that you say the calc should use what is known and shown and arguing the clouds weren’t parted because of a mechanic that is neither known nor was ever shown.

Also, yes, the adaptation can get it wrong but it’s not proven to be wrong… we are putting forth interpretations and your interpretation makes less sense due to contradicting the secondary canon that actually has visuals.

 

[MrTayman616]

Do I really have to explain why making an assumption that the EE AoE spreads from the initial attack is unjustified? A mechanic you’d be making up and would still end up giving reinhard a massive upgrade to his EE AoE. You’re making extra assumptions to justify not using the simplest reasonable explanation.

It’s a bit ironic that you say the calc should use what is known and shown and arguing the clouds weren’t parted because of a mechanic that is neither known nor was ever shown.

Also, yes, the adaptation can get it wrong but it’s not proven to be wrong… we are putting forth interpretations and your interpretation makes less sense due to contradicting the secondary canon that actually has visuals.

You accidentally sent this twice. (Accident i guess :d)

 

[PhantomØ4]

Actually, his profile accepts it to be the case. Thousands of kilometers radius EE which is also used a lot in his versus battles. (Like, WOW)

That’s not the same. That’s because the range of the beam is assumed to be the radius of the storm but the beam is only some dozen of kilometers across. If they argue that on versus threads then that’s people being wrong.

Hundreds of thousands of km^2 to millions of km^2 AoE is much different from thousands of km in range.

 

[PhantomØ4]

You accidentally sent this twice. (Accident i guess :d)

LAGGGGG. My bad.

 

[Arkenis]

Do I really have to explain why making an assumption that the EE AoE spreads from the initial attack is unjustified? A mechanic you’d be making up and would still end up giving reinhard a massive upgrade to his EE AoE. You’re making extra assumptions to justify not using the simplest reasonable explanation.

It’s a bit ironic that you say the calc should use what is known and shown and arguing the clouds weren’t parted because of a mechanic that is neither known nor was ever shown.

Also, yes, the adaptation can get it wrong but it’s not proven to be wrong… we are putting forth interpretations and your interpretation makes less sense due to contradicting the secondary canon that actually has visuals.

The simple explanation has nothing explaining it though? The story straight up tells us the slash is what wiped away the clouds and that slash was ee.

 

[MrTayman616]

Uhhh I dunno. I don't enough enough about source material to go back and forth. That was just a possible option. I still don't think the cloud parting should be discarded over a possibility of hax being the cause, specially when we have the manga to show us it was a regular split. At worst, without counting the manga, it should be a probably rating.

I don't have thoughts on the actual assumptions used.

Btw, this doesn't really matter. Anime and Manga doesn't show anything of that scale, nor even imply. LN doesn't show moving the clouds nor even explains it that way too. So even if we were to scale him based on clouds, we can either do it with what we've shown from anime or manga (which i assume wouldn't be as high as the storm's energy), or we'd just find the energy Puck uses and make him scale above, adding "far higher" as well.

Using it based on Puck makes more sense imo, as it'd work the same even if Reinhard used hax.

 

[Arkenis]

Yea the Puck scaling is most definitely more reasonable even given it’s already got some nuanced to his snowstorm creation as well.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Isn’t Puck’s Beast of The End storm an over time phenomenon with unknown timeframe? Seems useless. Idk how he currently is rated through.

I also told ya I brought up the anime and manga to say the EE only applies to his beam. The scale of the clearing isn’t Arkenis’ concern, shouldn’t be worded in a way that makes it seem like their specific argument makes more sense.

Imma get a bit busy so won’t reply again for a bit but anime clearing is probably in the country level range but Rein cannot fall below the country levels range with the sword due to his moon jump being Small Country level.

 

[MrTayman616]

Bump

 

[Therefir]

The slash is heavily implied to be EE hax, so it's better to scale him from something else.

 

[MrTayman616]

The slash is heavily implied to be EE hax, so it's better to scale him from something else.

Also something else i wanna add.

In the calc, there is another feat for the snowy clouds Puck creates to send snow to capital. It uses the distance between the capital and mansion as the radius but isn't it suppose to be the diameter here?

 

[MrTayman616]

Bump

 

[Therefir]

In the calc, there is another feat for the snowy clouds Puck creates to send snow to capital. It uses the distance between the capital and mansion as the radius but isn't it suppose to be the diameter here?

You have to use the radius to find the area of the clouds.

 

[MrTayman616]

You have to use the radius to find the area of the clouds.

Not what i meant.

the value used there takes the total distance as radius, but isn't that total distance diameter there?

I think it should be divided by two here.

 

[Therefir]

I'm a bit confused here. If Puck is near the mansion and the snow cloud reached the capital, then the distance between the mansion and the capital would be the radius, since Puck is the epicenter of the cloud.

 

[MrTayman616]

I'm a bit confused here. If Puck is near the mansion and the snow cloud reached the capital, then the distance between the mansion and the capital would be the radius, since Puck is the epicenter of the cloud.

Puck specifically uses his magic to send it there. Actually, maybe he doesn't even create clouds but only makes snow in this case?

 

[MrTayman616]

Don't really know Re Zero so I'll wait for more input

I think Arkenis is suggesting that anime and novel feats should be calculated separately. This does kinda make sense if we're going to disregard that the novel has a ton of feats and powers that complicate the claim that the cloud is moved through pure kinetic energy. So if we were to recalculate this, use omnidirectional KE with the anime timeframe.

I think there's been enough input, ig? Could you guys check again please?

 

[Drite77]

I'll do it once I'm home

 

[Drite77]

Could someone give me a brief summary of the points here? I saw the slash being considered EE, why is it still being used to calculate a feat if it was hax that cleared?

 

[Arkenis]

The original blog just went with it for whatever reason but now the feat should just be ignored due to the EE argument and have Rein's sword upscale from his moon jump.

 

[MrTayman616]

Could someone give me a brief summary of the points here? I saw the slash being considered EE, why is it still being used to calculate a feat if it was hax that cleared?

I think it was assumed that he pushed the clouds based on anime? I'm not really sure.

My arguments for distance related case is in OP, later edited an addition for the feat itself being described wrong.

This doesn't really matter. Anime and Manga doesn't show anything of that scale, nor even imply. LN doesn't show moving the clouds nor even explains it that way too. So even if we were to scale him based on clouds, we can either do it with what we've shown from anime or manga (which i assume wouldn't be as high as the storm's energy), or we'd just find the energy Puck uses and make him scale above, adding "far higher" as well.

Actually in the manga, the clouds move but not the entire mass, they're slashed and then slowly move apart. In the anime, We don't see it being the case as well, the clouds move but clearly not all mass or similar to the way in the calc. The LN doesn't say anything about pushing them or anything as far as i'm aware.

The calc itself assumes Reinhard moves the entire mass which is something we cannot claim here.

Arkenis and Therefir talked about it being EE, which is also accepted in his profile. That being EE (or spatial cut) is heavily implied(not just implied but accepted here) in this case and has comparable statements to other cases like this.

Basically, making the feat unusable at least via this method.

 

[MrTayman616]

bump

 

[VortechsTG]

Unless we can calculate the feat from the deletion of matter I am in favor of simply discarding it. Reinhard's slash erased the "world" (as in the area of Puck's snowstorm). His attacks literally leave vacuums in space. It doesn't seem to be something that can be used for attack potency. I'm pretty sure there are no calculatable feats at all for the top tiers of this verse.

Also can we please use the main Re:Zero tag?

 

[Huesito88]

Unless we can calculate the feat from the deletion of matter I am in favor of simply discarding it.

You'd be able to do that, but then it wouldn't be accepted as Hax (well without a big explanation)

 

[VortechsTG]

Unless we can calculate the feat from the deletion of matter I am in favor of simply discarding it. Reinhard's slash erased the "world" (as in the area of Puck's snowstorm). His attacks literally leave vacuums in space. It doesn't seem to be something that can be used for attack potency. I'm pretty sure there are no calculatable feats at all for the top tiers of this verse.

So, I should correct myself actually. I did some digging and found the part about vacuums to be a mistranslation. It would seem instead that the portrayal of the world having slid apart as shown by the manga visuals is consistent, although it isn't actually the entire world. We may actually be able to use the method used by Phantom.

If hax is the issue I think calculating the kinetic energy of Reinhard splitting the planet and it sliding after he actually swings (using manga visuals) might be better at this point and usable. Whilst the act of it splitting can be from dura negating hax the force of the two pieces moving up and down wouldn’t be from any of Reinhard’s hax.

There does seem to be an existence erasing effect to the sword slash as well, but it may not apply to the environment like I assumed based on the mistranslation suggesting he created a vacuum.