DBZ Kai/Toei: Goku's Astral Projection

[SwordLegendz01]

Hello, since the thread about the Kienzan's Durability Negation is still unfinished and starting to interfere with my future plans, along with a few other threads I've made for some reason, I've decided to propose a minor ability addition for Goku, specifically for DBZ Kai/Toei, based on a scene I feel is unmissable.

Okay, as stated in the title, I'll get straight to the point. According to the Daizenshuu 2: Story Guide, under the sections "Battle History: Special Attacks" and "Battle History: Final Battle", it is stated that Goku assisted Gohan during the battle against Cell. Furthermore, Goku's spirit is also depicted as giving Gohan power during the Father-Son Kamehameha.

I understand that this alone may not be enough. However, while the anime doesn't explicitly show much direct interaction between Gohan and Goku at that point, Gohan later states that Goku assisted him, as he could feel and smell Goku's presence beside him. Furthermore, in the Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot – Cell Games Arc, there is a depiction of direct interaction between Gohan and Goku, where Goku places his hand on Gohan's shoulder, and Gohan is seen responding to the touch.

Why was only Gohan able to perceive him? According to Daizenshuu 7, Goku possesses a mysterious technique that allows only Gohan to hear his voice, which may also explain how this form of Astral Projection functioned.

Whether this ability is limited or not remains unclear. However, it was already known that Goku possessed telepathy even before King Kai helped him communicate with Gohan from the Other World. It appears King Kai simply helped bypass the range limitation of Goku's ability, allowing communication between Goku (in the Other World) and Gohan (on Earth) since he was already dead.

Thoughts?


Agree: @Mgebrat282 @LuffyRuffy46307 @UnoRebaixadO @Anonymous_Learner
Disagree:

 

[Mgebrat282]

I agree

 

[SwordLegendz01]

I agree

Thank you

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Could simply be (and most likely is) a form of Sense Manipulation (or Illusion Creation) via Telepathy, if not entirely symbolic. Souls within the Dragon World take the form of will-o'-wisps, so the image of Goku's physical form appearing does conflict with the nature of Astral Projection, which separates the soul from the body. More importantly,

Why was only Gohan able to perceive him? According to Daizenshuu 7, Goku possesses a mysterious technique that allows only Gohan to hear his voice, which may also explain how this form of Astral Projection functioned.

Said "mysterious technique" involves speaking directly within the target's heart but is, in fact, a form of Telepathy.
also bojack unbound establishes that the rules of other world prevents the dead from returning to the living world normally and also suggests goku attacking bojack was the first time goku had broken said rules, which further conflicts with the astral projection theory but ehhhhh

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

It sounds great

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Could simply be (and most likely is) a form of Sense Manipulation (or Illusion Creation) via Telepathy, if not entirely symbolic. Souls within the Dragon World take the form of will-o'-wisps, so the image of Goku's physical form appearing does conflict with the nature of Astral Projection, which separates the soul from the body. More importantly,

How exactly? If I'm not mistaken, Goku was given a special treatment, given his physical body after death. So would projecting still be contradictory?

Said "mysterious technique" involves speaking directly within the target's heart but is, in fact, a form of Telepathy.
also bojack unbound establishes that the rules of other world prevents the dead from returning to the living world normally and also suggests goku attacking bojack was the first time goku had broken said rules, which further conflicts with the astral projection theory but ehhhhh

Also, isn't it clear that before Goku's soul actually appeared, as clearly seen in DBZ Kakarot, Goku was actually performing telepathy, as explained in the two scans?

 

[Mgebrat282]

Thank you

Btw, can it be applied as one of ki's properties? Since ki is a spirit/soul, so by controling ki you can create an astral projection

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Goku was given a special treatment, given his physical body after death. So would projecting still be contradictory?

Yes? Astral Projection, by definition, is transporting the soul outside of the body. Goku's soul should be a will-o'-wisp, and the image of Goku inspiring Gohan during the beam struggle is of his physical body, rather than a will-o'-wisp, which strongly suggests his soul was not projected.

Also, isn't it clear that before Goku's soul actually appeared, as clearly seen in DBZ Kakarot, Goku was actually performing telepathy, as explained in the two scans?

Yes, he was telepathically communicating with Gohan before the beam struggle began, and he continued telepathically communicating with Gohan during the clash.

 

[UnoRebaixadO]

That seems sufficient, I agree.

 

[RedReaper616]

When I made GT Goku’s profile, that was already listed as something on the profile before I got to my rework—I didn’t realize that it wasn’t accepted prior. (So I’ll remove it as needed once this thread concludes).

However, even in the GTku profile, it’s specifically listed (until Hero’s Legacy) to be Limited Astral Projection. He was clearly using King Kai (and later in Toei’s Broly: Second Coming, Shenron), as an aid to pull off whatever this technique is.

It’s only later on in GT that Toei Goku properly gains unrestrained Astral Projection without help, so with that in mind, I think that even if you get this accepted, it should be Limited. As for if it’s valid in itself as Astral Projection, I’m neutral. Depending on what is decided here, I’ll change GTku’s profile to match.

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Yes? Astral Projection, by definition, is transporting the soul outside of the body. Goku's soul should be a will-o'-wisp, and the image of Goku inspiring Gohan during the beam struggle is of his physical body, rather than a will-o'-wisp, which strongly suggests his soul was not projected.

Honestly, I don't know how you'd describe a will-o'-wisp in Dragon Ball. We saw in DBZ Broly, Shenron summoning Goku's soul, and that's what Goku looked like, complete with his physical body.

Yes, he was telepathically communicating with Gohan before the beam struggle began, and he continued telepathically communicating with Gohan during the clash.

Then we see a clear interaction between Gohan and Gohan in DBZ Kakarot, where Gohan senses Goku's presence by responding to the touch of his hand on his shoulder. And it's also mentioned in the anime that Gohan senses his presence by feeling and smelling his presence.

 

[Mgebrat282]

Btw, can it be applied as one of ki's properties? Since ki is a spirit/soul, so by controling ki you can create an astral projection

@SwordLegendz01

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Honestly, I don't know how you'd describe a will-o'-wisp in Dragon Ball.

They are wispy, like smoke with a defined physical shape (see Vegeta, Fusion Reborn), and have tails instead of legs (see Dabura, Future Elder Kai).

We saw in DBZ Broly, Shenron summoning Goku's soul, and that's what Goku looked like, complete with his physical body.

He used a Kamehameha. Evidently, he had more than his soul summoned.

Also, I'd like to point out how Goku is not present in any panel featuring Gohan from an omniscient third person perspective. Cell could not hear Goku because he was telepathically communicating with Gohan, but not a single character acknowledges Goku's supposed physical appearance, and the manga does not acknowledge he is physically present either.

According to the Daizenshuu 2: Story Guide, under the sections "Battle History: Special Attacks" and "Battle History: Final Battle", it is stated that Goku assisted Gohan during the battle against Cell.

Also, also, do you want a list of official sources disputing this idea by confirming Goku merely encouraged Gohan?

 

[SwordLegendz01]

They are wispy, like smoke with a defined physical shape (see Vegeta, Fusion Reborn), and have tails instead of legs (see Dabura, Future Elder Kai).

He used a Kamehameha. Evidently, he had more than his soul summoned.

Also, I'd like to point out how Goku is not present in any panel featuring Gohan from an omniscient third person perspective. Cell could not hear Goku because he was telepathically communicating with Gohan, but not a single character acknowledges Goku's supposed physical appearance, and the manga does not acknowledge he is physically present either.

As the title of the thread suggests, I'm not discussing the manga; that dialogue isn't even in the manga. If you consider that no character acknowledges Goku's presence, Gohan's dialogue with the Z-Fighters about Goku helping him is also significant, as he senses his presence and scent.

We have Bojack and his men unaware of Goku's presence, as seen when he rescues Gohan and talks to him, even before putting him on the ground. They don't notice.

I also clearly see Goku performing his Kamehameha in both the anime and Kakarot, but the situation before he performs it, where DBZ Kakarot explicitly shows their interaction isn't just telepathy, and we have Gohan's clear acknowledgement in both the anime and Kai, indicating that Goku is manifesting his astral body.

Also, also, do you want a list of official sources disputing this idea by confirming Goku merely encouraged Gohan?

I don't know what you mean, but it's just a support that Goku helps Gohan.

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Bump

 

[Mgebrat282]

Bump

Btw, can it be applied as one of ki's properties? Since ki is a spirit/soul, so by controling ki you can create an astral projection

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Bump

Btw, can it be applied as one of ki's properties? Since ki is a spirit/soul, so by controling ki you can create an astral projection

I think no

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Bump

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

agree

 

[SwordLegendz01]

agree

Counted, thank you

 

[Vietthai96]

also bojack unbound establishes that the rules of other world prevents the dead from returning to the living world normally and also suggests goku attacking bojack was the first time goku had broken said rules, which further conflicts with the astral projection theory but ehhhhh

Resistance to Law Manipulation

 

[Anonymous_Learner]

Resistance to Law Manipulation

Hold on, let em cook

 

[SwordLegendz01]

Resistance to Law Manipulation

Btw, what do you think about OP?

 

[KingTempest]

I don't think "he assisted" is referencing "he blasted his kamehameha alongside him". Talking to him alone is assistance when he was telling him what to do.
Put me for neutral, leaning disagree

 

[SwordLegendz01]

I don't think "he assisted" is referencing "he blasted his kamehameha alongside him". Talking to him alone is assistance when he was telling him what to do.
Put me for neutral, leaning disagree

It seems that there are some things that are from the manga, such as "he assisted", it is true that Goku spoke to Gohan, but look at their interaction album and at the end of the arc, it is made clear that Gohan felt Goku's presence as he could feel his presence and smell his scent.


And DBZ Kakarot is accepted as supplementary material for the original manga, but in that scene it looks more like the anime where Goku transforms into a Super Saiyan, in contrast to the manga which only shows the silhouette of Base Goku, and in DBZ Kakarot their interaction is seen