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Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

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Mind that they are replica of Cthulu mythos. Both Azathoth and Yog Sothoth are described pretty much the same in GGZ too with Yog Sothoth being the wisdom and the gate. Azathoth maintaining reality by sleeping and the reality being the thoughts of Azathoth and being the nuclear chaos.

Azathoth in the original mythos does not maintain reality by sleeping. That is a very common misconception.

And it is not like GGZ even uses that idea, because Azathoth explicitly wakes up and nothing happens.

They take some inspiration, but they stray very far from their real counterparts.

So can you give the scans of "creating reality called chaos = allusion to the fact of causing problem"? Or is it just your interpretation? I gave scans when you asked. How about you start giving scans that prove your claims and not theorizing. The texts clearly stated the reality others see isn't true.

I'm using the same scan you gave.

"Azathoth, Azathoth, can't you see? Why are you always asleep?"

"This makes you seem lonely."

【I live in my own form, and create reality, a reality called madness, folly, and chaos】

Azathoth is not speaking literally here. She does not literally create worlds by sleeping, nor does she destroy them by waking up.

If her entire Kizuna is focused on compiling all the problems Azzy causes in the academy, then it is evident that when she talks about chaos and “creating her own reality,” she is referring to turning everything around her upside down.

In the same statement you posted earlier, she claims she can change “the shape of the place” to contrast with how boring the academy is, which is an obvious reference to causing trouble, just like she did with her minions, with her music, and with her mind control.

“How harmonious and peaceful Babylon Academy is… and how boring. I almost feel like molding this tiny place into a more interesting shape…”

Azathoth from original mythos is also called Blind Idiot God. Can you say azathoth is just seeing things differently because it's just blind? nothing more?

That is what Azathoth herself says. The original myths are irrelevant.

“How absurd—foolish people actually pity me for lacking sight. Creatures that rely too heavily on their eyes are, instead, unable to see reality clearly.
 
??????

Why are you mixing material from the Yog Sothoth Sutras and other goddesses with Azathoth?

Azathoth is simply saying that she perceives reality in a different way because she is blind.

And the whole “creating a reality called chaos” thing is just an allusion to the fact that wherever she goes she causes problems. It is not literally saying that she creates worlds by sleeping, duh.

Where did you get the whole "wuji" nosense?
He got it from me when I pointed out the relation of mythological primordial states to the concept of Wuji. But to his dismay, he fails to realize that “creating Wuji” is inherently an anti-feat. For Wuji is neither created nor a creator; for it is already all things in the sense that it is causally prior to division, and yet must remain beyond them and as such cannot be qualified as Being, and is given a classification of Non-Being (though, not literally nonexistence, just that it is “too great” to be qualifed as a Being)

Rather both conceptions of creator and created flow from it as they are expressed in the Supreme Polarity
 
A bit late to the party but can the verse supporters show scans/any proof of Yog being the Nameless Tao itself because that seems like a very important point of contention.
Already did, actually. the characteristics of the Nameless Tao, etc are to explain the true nature of Yog-Sothoth in GGZ so that's why I kept using the word "inherent"
 
A bit late to the party but can the verse supporters show scans/any proof of Yog being the Nameless Tao itself because that seems like a very important point of contention.

We already discussed this at the start of the thread.

Yog is not literally the Tao. Rather, Taoists who follow the Tao Te Ching interpret Yog’s existence as akin to the Tao, just like Buddhists interpret Yog as Nirvana.

It is different cultures trying to fit the existence of a transcendent being into their own experiences and schools of thought. It is not something that really carries weight for Yog’s scaling. Or, more precisely, it supports 1A, but it does not add anything beyond that.
 
Yeah I'm gonna post my summary probably tomorrow.
You should link your posts to scans, or provide quotes beyond your own interpretations, or the inaccurate summary of a game you clean haven’t played, and reposit your argument again without the flowery language argument because literally nothing in the text of Kizuna states that or implies it heavily. Post the parts of the Yog Kizuna that do.

The notion that Yog is just the interpretation of other faiths is directly addressed in Kizuna 4

A certain speech about gods in the new millennium.

"...I believe that all gods are some kind of projection of the human heart, and that this projection is either about nature or about man himself. In the end, apart from human consciousness, gods cannot exist."

After making this assertion, the speaker strode down the steps with his head held high, followed by an endless round of applause.

Getting into the car that drove away from the venue, the speaker closed his eyes and held his breath in the back seat of the car, enjoying a moment of peace after his success.

Soon, however - the driver's voice broke the silence.

"Sir... I heard the speech you just gave, it was really impressive..."

"Oh?" The speaker smiled to himself, "Do you also care about such metaphysical things?"

"It's not that I don't care... except that I think that gods actually exist too."

The speaker frowned at the driver's retort: "Oh, it's common that people who believe in gods don't like the existence of gods to be denied. It's only in order to gain wisdom and deny the reality of the gods that a leap in perception can occur."

"Like that? But... the God I believe in, what if it is wisdom itself?"

Yog’s true form isn’t an amalgamation of faith like other gods.
He got it from me when I pointed out the relation of mythological primordial states to the concept of Wuji. But to his dismay, he fails to realize that “creating Wuji” is inherently an anti-feat. For Wuji is neither created nor a creator; for it is already all things in the sense that it is causally prior to division, and yet must remain beyond them and as such cannot be qualified as Being, and is given a classification of Non-Being (though, not literally nonexistence, just that it is “too great” to be qualifed as a Being)

Rather both conceptions of creator and created flow from it as they are expressed in the Supreme Polarity
You’re getting too technical. Bringing up arcane, off-topic real life concepts most people don’t know about ITT isn’t exactly helpful. It’s pedantic. It also isn’t relevant. Our standards don’t require the Taiji and Wuji to be named and elaborated on as concepts in verse. If something that is presented as Tao fulfills the criteria to be Tier 0, then it counts. This thread is about that topic, not about the accuracy, or lack thereof, of Hoyoverse’s depiction of Taoism.
 
You’re getting too technical. Bringing up arcane, off-topic real life concepts most people don’t know about ITT isn’t exactly helpful. It’s pedantic. It also isn’t relevant. Our standards don’t require the Taiji and Wuji to be named and elaborated on as concepts in verse. If something that is presented as Tao fulfills the criteria to be Tier 0, then it counts. This thread is about that topic, not about the accuracy, or lack thereof, of Hoyoverse’s depiction of Taoism.
It’s technical because I’m trying to be clear on which concepts within Hoyo’s cosmology don’t satisfy the standards, by ya know, bringing up the standards.

He was positing “Wuji” as somehow having any relation to the scaling, and I simply explained why it cannot be such because the description is contradictory.

Our standards don’t require the Taiji and Wuji to be named and elaborated on as concepts in verse.
If they’re used for scaling, the they sure as hell must. That is, if you argue something because of a namedrop (like the opposition), you have to elaborate the namedrop. My entire purpose here is just to explain why none of these namedrops (Chaos, Wuji, Taiji etc.) satisfy the standards.
 
I'm gonna ignore the first part of your message because it's the typical filler that doesn't address anything.

The notion that Yog is just the interpretation of other faiths is directly addressed in Kizuna 4

A certain speech about gods in the new millennium.

"...I believe that all gods are some kind of projection of the human heart, and that this projection is either about nature or about man himself. In the end, apart from human consciousness, gods cannot exist."

After making this assertion, the speaker strode down the steps with his head held high, followed by an endless round of applause.

Getting into the car that drove away from the venue, the speaker closed his eyes and held his breath in the back seat of the car, enjoying a moment of peace after his success.

Soon, however - the driver's voice broke the silence.

"Sir... I heard the speech you just gave, it was really impressive..."

"Oh?" The speaker smiled to himself, "Do you also care about such metaphysical things?"

"It's not that I don't care... except that I think that gods actually exist too."

The speaker frowned at the driver's retort: "Oh, it's common that people who believe in gods don't like the existence of gods to be denied. It's only in order to gain wisdom and deny the reality of the gods that a leap in perception can occur."

"Like that? But... the God I believe in, what if it is wisdom itself?"

Yog’s true form isn’t an amalgamation of faith like other gods.

It is honestly amazing how bad your reading comprehension is. I am genuinely speechless.

What makes it even worse is that I already addressed this several messages ago.

Buddhism and Taoism do not share any real common qualities, yet both are used by normal humans as examples to trying to explain Yog’s existence via their own cultures. It is painfully obvious that these are just humans trying to understand a being that exists beyond their comprehension and those statements aren't a literal definition of what Yog is.

Heaven is not Nirvana or the Tao because the self does not cease, and there is still a subject object duality.

Being “the origin of religions” is not actually important here, because it simply means that Yog has been sharing her knowledge with humanity since ancient times and, as a result, religions and schools of thought were formed. This is shown directly in the Dao Sutra.

I do not know what kind of arguments you have been reading so far, but at no point have I argued that Yog is “an amalgamation of faith.”

In fact, nowhere is it stated that the other gods are “an amalgamation of faith” either. That story you copied and pasted only talks about how Yog manifests to a preacher to show him that God exists and is not just an invention of the human mind. That is all.

"...I believe that all gods are some kind of projection of the human heart, and that this projection is either about nature or about man himself. In the end, apart from human consciousness, gods cannot exist

This statement is literally the classic, emblematic anti theism argument, so Yog simply demonstrated to the man that gods do exist beyond the human mind.

It does not have any meaning beyond that.

This is not evidence for the tier 0 whatsoever.
 
We already discussed this at the start of the thread.

Yog is not literally the Tao. Rather, Taoists who follow the Tao Te Ching interpret Yog’s existence as akin to the Tao, just like Buddhists interpret Yog as Nirvana.

It is different cultures trying to fit the existence of a transcendent being into their own experiences and schools of thought. It is not something that really carries weight for Yog’s scaling. Or, more precisely, it supports 1A, but it does not add anything beyond that.
Well unless I am mistaken the argument presented by Weaver (The profile creator) is mostly contingent upon Yog being the Tao. I am well aware of the discussion since I skimmed through it but I failed to notice a clear cut scan/Quote that backs up the assertion that Yog=The Nameless Tao. I just want proof for that.
I admit the justifications are kinda ass. Idk why but I wrote nameless Tao is born from Yog Sothoth's bubble which is not. The text here is not referring to Eternal Tao and just Tao that can be expressed.
And Yog sothoth doesn't exist beyond Eternal Tao. Yog Sothoth is Eternal Tao. Because Bubbles and doors are merely a medium between mortal world and her world.
 
Can you link the message if possible

Read here. About Yog Sothoth being nameless Tao, her divine power of "definition" and transcending boundaries is exactly what the nameless Tao is being described. Although my main argument in upgrade thread was about her being nameless Tao, Ultima considered that Tao and Buddha stuffs are just supporting the kizuna 5 story.

Unless you gonna say all of these stories are just flowery like Berny did, I don't think there's much to discuss about since there're not much scans anyway. Seems like OP also doesn't have problem with Tao anymore since I explained that I wrote wrong justification.
 
Unless you gonna say all of these stories are just flowery like Berny did

I have never said those stories are flowery.

What I am arguing is that Yog is not literally “the Tao,” because those descriptions of what the Tao is are only attempts to explain what Yog is through a specific school of thought and culture. That is precisely why Yog is also described as Nirvana, even though Nirvana and the Tao have nothing to do with each other.

It is not a difficult argument to understand. In the end, those are just ordinary humans trying to interpret the forbidden knowledge that Yog grants them.

In the fifth Kizuna we learn what Yog’s existence actually is (a deity that resides in the white void, which has nothing to do with either the Tao or Nirvana).
 
Read here. About Yog Sothoth being nameless Tao, her divine power of "definition" and transcending boundaries is exactly what the nameless Tao is being described. Although my main argument in upgrade thread was about her being nameless Tao, Ultima considered that Tao and Buddha stuffs are just supporting the kizuna 5 story.
Umm I don't see her being referred to as the Nameless Tao anywhere ?
No scan or anything, even in Ultima's interpretation
From what I can gather: Existence here is entirely defined by language, definition, and description, which provides a framework for reality and determines distinctions. Yog-Sothoth is beyond all those things and therefore beyond all boundaries and distinctions, which it sets in place to begin with.

The little story about the Tao seems to confirm that with the statement of "The name that can be named is not the eternal name," followed by "the name that can be named" being stated to be born from Yog-Sothoth's bubbles (i.e. Its power of definition).
What Ultima said is that Yog is merely beyond the framework of reality/Existence and that everything named originates from Yog-Sothoth's bubbles. I don't see anything that says that Yog = Nameless Tao ?
All I see is that
  • Anything that can be named isn't The Nameless Tao.
  • And that anything that is named originates from Yog's bubbles.
Obviously she is beyond anything that's named.
I can see H1-A+ ngl
Obviously I don't know the context so feel free to educate me.
Unless you gonna say all of these stories are just flowery like Berny did
I am not because I don't know about the verse.

Anyways to sum up everything
- I just want one scan/Quote saying that Yog is The Nameless Tao.

Is the argument
Since she does the naming she is herself beyond names making her nameless thus she is The Nameless Tao ?
 
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- I just want one scan/Quote saying that Yog is The Nameless Tao.
It's implied. Nameless Tao can't be named or described. Everything that's named or spoken isn't nameless/eternal Tao. Named Tao is born from Yog Sothoth's bubble (again a metaphor). This only imply nameless Tao is yog sothoth who is beyond definition which both shares the same quality of ineffable. The whole point of the four stories is to showcase how Yog Sothoth is beyond the self, beyond definition and beyond languages from various religious angles.

Again, I will leave the judgement to staffs, would be nice if Ultima can show up, since they know better than I do and they can probably explain it better than me
 
I'm gonna ignore the first part of your message because it's the typical filler that doesn't address anything.



It is honestly amazing how bad your reading comprehension is. I am genuinely speechless.

What makes it even worse is that I already addressed this several messages ago.





I do not know what kind of arguments you have been reading so far, but at no point have I argued that Yog is “an amalgamation of faith.”

In fact, nowhere is it stated that the other gods are “an amalgamation of faith” either. That story you copied and pasted only talks about how Yog manifests to a preacher to show him that God exists and is not just an invention of the human mind. That is all.



This statement is literally the classic, emblematic anti theism argument, so Yog simply demonstrated to the man that gods do exist beyond the human mind.

It does not have any meaning beyond that.

This is not evidence for the tier 0 whatsoever.
Damn…

Saying that someone has poor reading comprehension is a classic non argument. I studied Literature and Theology in college, I know what I am talking about when I analyze things. You can’t just randomly say something is symbolic and metaphorical without there being a tell in the text. There is not one. Powerscalers are afraid of anything beyond 8th grade English so they call anything that looks flowery metaphorical and meaningless. A text can be both lavish and literal at once, and for most of history, that has been the case. Shakespeare and the 1611 KJV Bible are considered high, dense, and flowery to the modern world, but they were the common speech of Englishmen back in the day.

The fourth Kizuna is pointing out a difference between Yog Sotthoth and other deities. In the first bolded text:


"...I believe that all gods are some kind of projection of the human heart, and that this projection is either about nature or about man himself. In the end, apart from human consciousness, gods cannot exist."

Gods are, according to the speaker, amalgamations of faith. This is backed up by faith giving them strength. Let’s look at the second text:

The speaker frowned at the driver's retort: "Oh, it's common that people who believe in gods don't like the existence of gods to be denied. It's only in order to gain wisdom and deny the reality of the gods that a leap in perception can occur."

"Like that? But... the God I believe in, what if it is wisdom itself?"


Yog Sotthoth is of a different nature here.

“It’s only in order to gain wisdom that you can deny gods.”

“But what if this God is wisdom itself?”

Yog is clearly not even the same type of entity if Yog is not faith like other gods.

Buddhism and Taoism just being ways to explain Yog isn’t anywhere even alluded to in the text. That’s an interpretation you came up with and are imposing on it yourself.

The funny thing is that you’re using the exact same type of obtuse arguments people used against you in the Umineko High 1-A thread.
 
It's implied. Nameless Tao can't be named or described. Everything that's named or spoken isn't nameless/eternal Tao. Named Tao is born from Yog Sothoth's bubble (again a metaphor). This only imply nameless Tao is yog sothoth who is beyond definition which both shares the same quality of ineffable. The whole point of the four stories is to showcase how Yog Sothoth is beyond the self, beyond definition and beyond languages from various religious angles.

Again, I will leave the judgement to staffs, would be nice if Ultima can show up, since they know better than I do and they can probably explain it better than me
That makes sense to me, I will stay neutral, I can see both sides of the argument. I will take a look at the summary ig and wait for staff members.
 
Saying that someone has poor reading comprehension is a classic non argument.

You don't know what an argument is. That's not the "argument" of my reply. It's simply an observation. I addressed what you wrote below.

I studied Literature and Theology in college

I don't care.

You can’t just randomly say something is symbolic and metaphorical without there being a tell in the text. There is not one.

There is something called "context". I've already explained my argumentation enough. I don't want to repeat again what I've already wrote.

A text can be both lavish and literal at once, and for most of history, that has been the case. Shakespeare and the 1611 KJV Bible are considered high, dense, and flowery to the modern world, but they were the common speech of Englishmen back in the day.

Cool appeal to possibility. That is not the case, because for starters I am not even arguing that the stories are not literal.

Quoting myself:

I have never said those stories are flowery.

What I am arguing is that Yog is not literally “the Tao,” because those descriptions of what the Tao is are only attempts to explain what Yog is through a specific school of thought and culture. That is precisely why Yog is also described as Nirvana, even though Nirvana and the Tao have nothing to do with each other.

It is not a difficult argument to understand. In the end, those are just ordinary humans trying to interpret the forbidden knowledge that Yog grants them.

In the fifth Kizuna we learn what Yog’s existence actually is (a deity that resides in the white void, which has nothing to do with either the Tao or Nirvana).

The fourth Kizuna is pointing out a difference between Yog Sotthoth and other deities. In the first bolded text:


"...I believe that all gods are some kind of projection of the human heart, and that this projection is either about nature or about man himself. In the end, apart from human consciousness, gods cannot exist."

Gods are, according to the speaker, amalgamations of faith. This is backed up by faith giving them strength. Let’s look at the second text:

The speaker frowned at the driver's retort: "Oh, it's common that people who believe in gods don't like the existence of gods to be denied. It's only in order to gain wisdom and deny the reality of the gods that a leap in perception can occur."

"Like that? But... the God I believe in, what if it is wisdom itself?"


Yog Sotthoth is of a different nature here.

“It’s only in order to gain wisdom that you can deny gods.”

“But what if this God is wisdom itself?”

Yog is clearly not even the same type of entity if Yog is not faith like other gods.

That is not what that text says.

I am going to explain it one last time because I am honestly getting bored.

That text you cited is simply the belief of an atheistic preacher who thinks deities do not exist and are just human imagination.

Yog manifests before that preacher to prove that deities do exist and are not human creations.

The text does not establish a difference between Yog and the other gods. When Yog’s follower says that Yog “is wisdom itself,” it is just referring to the fact that Yog grants humans forbidden knowledge about how the world works, because the debate over whether gods exist or not only persists because humans are relatively ignorant in knowledge compared to the gods.

It is an extremely simple text to understand.

Buddhism and Taoism just being ways to explain Yog isn’t anywhere even alluded to in the text. That’s an interpretation you came up with and are imposing on it yourself.

OK. So I guess the debate is over, because the Tier 0 argument does not even exist. The only reason Tier 0 was ever being discussed is because it was implied that Yog might be the Tao. But if Yog is not the Tao, and the text does not support the idea that Taoism is anything more than a way to express Yog’s nature, then the Tier 0 argument never existed in the first place.

I will take this as a concession. It is honestly impressive how, by grasping at straws and pushing against extremely simple texts, you end up undermining the character even more.

The funny thing is that you’re using the exact same type of obtuse arguments people used against you in the Umineko High 1-A thread.

Lmao, what? I have never argued for Tier 0 Umineko. How is it even possible for someone to use “my own arguments” against me when I have literally never even made a thread about it?

Joke’s on you. Tier 0 Umineko does not depend on humans talking about things they do not comprehend. Nor does it depend on random namedrops about Taoism.

Can we just avoid bringing up the Honkai slayer for now?
 
Our standards don’t require the Taiji and Wuji to be named and elaborated on as concepts in verse. If something that is presented as Tao fulfills the criteria to be Tier 0, then it counts
This is completely wrong, the verse absolutely need to elaborate on what the hell is Tao/Dao in them, even 1-A Tao/Dao requires extreme evidences, let alone tier 0
 
Okay so I am going to write a summarization on Berny's and my own behalf for the disagreement over Tier-0, adding most of points made by Bern and Nova, would appreciate if they tell I forgot to add any parts. This going to be a comment for staff so have link to most of arguments against Tier-0.

Note: I said I am "fine with Tier-0 if it qualifies", as the maker of this CRT I find Bern's and Nova's stand more convincing then what supporters presented.

The points on the thread are already said, so we go with reference to comments and summarization of the argues through the CRT.





First I want to clear the situation of Yin and Yang within the discussion, as Nova already explained, several times.

The statement while not directly collaborating with, is later exemplified in HSR to be referring to HooH, who doesn’t qualify Yin and Yang in a meaningful sense. As it only describes the functions of Imaginary Energy, and more essentially Real Space. Otherwise he’d be 1-A as well.

In any case, any general statement for Yin and Yang could never qualify for a Tier, hax or any scaling implications for that matter. Aside from rare cases like Nasuverse (or LOTM) who qualify what these terms insinuate for the verses’ metaphysical framework.

Yin and Yang merely describes movement behind the universes’ topology and particularly the distribution of Imaginary Energy within the Tree. HooH just tries to keep stuff balanced. That’s literally all there is to the “Taiji” in Honkai. Which, mind you, the “Primordial Chaos” which should be Wuji is actually just the SoQ lmao.

And also, because the universe works in duality says nothing about Yog’s ontology. That’s a given for literally every verse in existence.

Like, these terms need to be clarified. Hell, some versions of Kabbalah hold that Tzimtzum (the contraction of God) happens in euclidean space. I’ve even heard of theories about the Tao being some quantum vacuum lmao.

It just can’t be that we’re to assume that the mention of any particular philosophy means we hold it up to the highest-scaling school of thought regarding it. So, can you explain how Yin and Yang tie in with Yog? Just a few mentions grant nothing at all. The functions of their relationship needs to be explained in order to grant a tiering, otherwise you’d have a billion random chinaverses at Tier 0.

As Nova explained, Yin and Yang does not hold for qualification in this scaling and Yin & Yang merely describes movement behind the universe and distribution of Imaginary Energy. She also added an example of God from The Shack series that got 1-A rating because it nonetheless was reducible to 1-A.

And so now we go for further points after the Yin & Yang has been cleared. (Referencing to some of Bern's comments)

The statement about Buddhism and Taoism does not hold as Bern explained
Both descriptions are not meant to be taken literally. They are simply meant to show how normal human beings interpret the forbidden knowledge they obtain through Yog, filtered through different schools of thought that vary across cultures.

Yog’s “true form” resides in the white void (Heaven), where she is just another goddess of the Babylon Academy within the Cthulhu branch.
Same about her "true form"
The statement is not talking about a “true form” in the sense of something transcendent above everything. It is simply referring to how Yog, in her Aforgomon form, kills everyone who reaches her domain so quickly that nobody is able to actually see her Aforgomon form as such, which is easy to understand if you take the context of the description into account.

It is the equivalent of saying that character X eradicates all visitors to their plane so fast that nobody can make out their form. That is all.
Also Nova
This is not the main requirement for Tier 0 lol. It’s actually quite the opposite; ineffability is a derivative of ontology. It’s why Pure Act is ineffable differently to the Tao.

If you merely say something is unnamed or unattainable by the human mind, then you say nothing about its ontic status. Even noumena, as our mind lacks the a priori conditions to comprehend them, are completely beyond knowledge. But they sure as hell aren’t Tier 0; far from it actually.

The Tao is ineffable because it is hyper-noetic, in that it is causally prior to the Taiji, which contains Knowledge as united with all things.


Furthermore, we should discuss Outer Gods themselves

Firsts would be Azathoth and Mother
The whole "incomprehensible" completely taken out of context. Berny made it is clear. And explained further here. And even more, several times referenced it.

Gods like Azathoth or Mother does not qualify for a higher scaling or any proof for Tier-0. Berny also added in the same comment how Mother's description would contradict Yog's if we say she is literally the mother and so on that Berny continued to explain toward Weaver.

I like to add also if we want to use the Azathoth's or Mother's, there is also the fact that White Abyss variant of the Yog-Sothoth has interaction with Nyarlathotep that she tries to fool Yog everyday (basically pranking her), WHILE she fears Azathoth.

Even the mighty Nyarlathotep has something to fear - that is Azathoth sleeping in the K academy building.

As a child and subordinate of Azathoth, Nyarla respected and feared her.

When Azathoth was asleep, Nyarla regarded the K academy building as a forbidden place, and didn't even dare to take a step. But all this has its own reasons.

Just last time, after Azathoth woke up, Nyarla was ordered to bring a huge sound.

Although reluctantly, Nyarla brought the stereo. Then, she suffered the biggest torture in her life-

The frantic neighing, hoarse flute sound was continuously expanded through the sound. Nyarla not only had to endure the violent sonic attack, but also praised Azathoth:

"As expected of Lord Azathoth, this kind of music is really artistic!"

Nyarlathotep smirked and praised Azathoth in blood.

While enduring, while touting. In this way, Nyarlathotep finally got rid of it when Azathoth fell asleep again contentedly.

Rather, in the next few months, as long as the slightest sound, Nyarlathotep's body will constantly shiver.
— From "The shadow of the K academy building" Kizuna.

By supporters own logic, that also should mean some form of power dynamic.

Which is why I purpose Tier-0 for Azathoth instead since I like her more

There are clearly contradicting claims regarding the whole Tier-0.

And so we reach the end of it as of now. (Page 5) Bern explain the misconception, and so Nova added to that. And further Bern's comment upon the faith.

And finally, a comment from one of supporters. (Reference only to one part of both's comment, full context can be seen upon the links)

Buddhism and Taoism just being ways to explain Yog isn’t anywhere even alluded to in the text. That’s an interpretation you came up with and are imposing on it yourself.

And Bern's answer.

OK. So I guess the debate is over, because the Tier 0 argument does not even exist. The only reason Tier 0 was ever being discussed is because it was implied that Yog might be the Tao. But if Yog is not the Tao, and the text does not support the idea that Taoism is anything more than a way to express Yog’s nature, then the Tier 0 argument never existed in the first place.
I will take this as a concession. It is honestly impressive how, by grasping at straws and pushing against extremely simple texts, you end up undermining the character even more.

Which should be the final nail upon the coffin of Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth, as it has been getting Tier-0 by association to Tao, as also BlazeISbot111 had explained, in two comment, how this association would be false in first place.

Everything had been addressed, fortunately.




Sigh Finally. As a final note, I want to add

  • "Ultima promised to them 3000 years ago" is not an argument
  • "It has been addressed" is not an argument
  • Any mention of Umineko is irrelevant (the obsession with a simple VN is beyond me)

I hope this conclude thing, I wish to wait for staff now.

Edit:

Just to revise the proposal with a minor change on PP.

Also based on this scan

Language frames the world, words make the rules, and so space and time are framed beyond this.
You, for example, are looking at this line of text, and as I am, looking at you through this line of text.
This is how divine power works. Humans get old, their hair grays, but how about the world within words? This is the divine power of God, "description", or "definition". The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from all things, we can create all things, and so all things are born in our hands.

The "definition and description" that she transcended can be the space-time itself.

We indeed can give her a 1-A scaling by virtue of being beyond language.

Nova's CRT was… unexpected, well now I do not think this vague line of "beyond language" be enough for Qualitative Superiority, I suggest 1-C by virtue of transcending Imaginary Tree, and by this comment of Veit, we can turn toward PP Type 1.

Conclusion: 1-C with PP Type 1
 
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The translation in your OP is wrong in many sections and it may even changed the entire context entirely. Its quite misleading, so you should really change it. I'll provide a translation thats more accurate.

OP Raw text:

几百年后,函谷关。 白发的老人面前,关隘的守将正崇敬地看着他: “您真的见到了,传说中的“道”吗?” “没错。”
老人温和的声音,宛如普泽的细雨,平复了守将心中 的焦急。
“道就在那里,它在门后,也在门内。门”并不存 在,但可以被看到,这正是其玄妙的根源......"
一个个梦幻的泡泡在函谷关上升腾了起来,老人的身 影随着泡泡一起慢慢升临到半空中,身后那片琉璃的 世界令守将目眩神迷。而他的声音还在不断响起: “道,可道,非恒道也。由泡所发,向泡而生。 名,可名,非恒名也。出泡而形,入泡而真。 门,始终万物,玄妙之根,泡断影灭,生死相成...... "
就在老人彻底消失之后,守将整理了他留下来的言语 ,并著成一书。但他删去了关于“泡”的描述。 不过,仍有人捕捉到了关于“泡”的蛛丝马迹,为了 找到“泡”,人们将与其形貌相似的丹道视为通往“ 泡”的路径。
据说,当炼丹士们服下真正的金丹以后,他们就能抵 达玄妙之门,得到“泡”赐予的无上智慧。

Enhanced translation:

Hundreds of years later, Hangu Pass (most likely referring to the real life location in China). In front of the white hair elderly man, stood a general of the pass who looked upon him with deep reverence, said "mister, have you really seen the legendary "tao" before?" The old man replied: "Indeed"
The voice of that old man was as soft as the rain of Puze (reference to Pouzay, a commune in France), subsided the anxiety in the general's heart.
"The Dao is there, it is behind the door, and it is within the door. The door actually doesn't exist, but it can be seen, it is the root of the Dao's mystery......."
Dream bubbles ascended to the Hangu Pass one by one, the elder's shadow gradually ascends along the dream bubbles into midair, the color-glazed world behind him made the general dazzle. And his voice continuously ringed out, "The Tao that can be spoken is not the Eternal Dao. It rises from bubbles, it grows from bubbles. The name that can be named is not the Eternal Name. Out of the bubble it forms, into the bubble it becomes real. Door, always everything, the mysterious root, cut from the bubble and comes annihilation, intertwining life and death......"
Right after the elder man completely vanished, the general organised his words left behind, and wrote a book about it. However, he deleted the descriptions about the "bubble". However, there are still those who grasps clue about the "bubble", and to find the "bubble", they'll deem other Dan Dao (see here for definition of 丹道) with a similar appearance to it as a path that will lead to ”bubble".
It is said that when alchemists grasps hold of the real golden Dan, they can arrive at the mysterious gate, acquire the boundless knowledge bestowed by the "bubble".

Your translation:

Hundreds of years ago, at the Hangu Pass.
Before the white-haired old man, stood a defender of the pass that looked at him with reverence.
"Have you truly seen the legendary "Tao"?"
"That's right."
The gentle voice of the old man, like the fine rain of Puze, calmed the anxiety in the guard's heart.
"The Dao is right there, it's behind the door, but also inside the door. The door itself doesn't actually exist, but it can still be seen. This really is the origin of all which is mysterious."
A dreamy bubble rose up from the Hangu Pass, and the old man's figure slowly rose up into the air along with the Bubble, the crystalized world behind him dazzling the guard. And his voice continued to ring out:
"The Dao that may be trodden is not the eternal Dao. It arises from the bubbles, and towards their direction it is born.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name. Coming forth from the bubbles it takes form, yet entering them it becomes real.
The door is the beginning and end of all living beings, it is the root of that which is mysterious. As bubbles are cut short and shadows are extinguished, life and death complement each other."

Just after the old man completely vanished, the guard compiled his words into a book. However, he removed the descriptions of these "bubbles".
Yet, there still are people who were able to grasp the still threads reminiscent of the Bubble. In order to capture the Bubble, people will look through the path of the Bubble together with the Golden Dan which resembles it.
It is said that after the scholars who practice alchemy have consumed the true Golden Dan they are able to penetrate through the door and acquire the Bubble's blessings and knowledge.

I'll explain whats wrong with your translation later. Busy right now.
 
Could you expand on your argument regarding Yog’s ‘true form’?
Because as far as I know, Aforgomon is merely one of Yog’s avatars, according to this scan
尤格索托斯的阴暗面,名为“亚弗戈蒙”的化身 ,拥有打破时空规则的禁忌之力。

The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, the incarnation of "Aforgomon", has the forbidden power to break the rules of time and space.


And regarding the argument involving Yog and Nyarlathotep—what does that have to do with downgrading Yog to Level 0?
Just because she talks to Yog without fear doesn’t prove anything. Even ordinary humans don’t show fear either, lol
Scan
干嘛用这种垂涎欲滴的眼神盯着我——莫非是对我产生食欲了, 还是说,是另一种“食欲”呢?

Why are you staring at me with such a hungry look - could it be that you have a craving for me, or is it another kind of "appetite"?


Do I really need to point this out to you as well—that ‘Yog-Sothoth - White Abyss’ who speaks with Nyarlathotep is a completely different entity from Yog-Sothoth?
This is supported by the Yog-Sothoth login CG by Bison仓鼠.
 
I just wanted to bring something here: GGZ seems to be extremely difficult to access, with the mentioning in this thread that some of the events are even lost media now.

I think this is a serious problem, since entire verses were nuked from this wiki for much less.

Who told you it’s hard to access?
This GGZ game is actually easier to access than many Japanese VN, lol

And aside from the "Honkai General Election" event story—which isn’t even relevant to this thread anyway—most of the content has still been archived by parts of the Chinese community
 
The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, the incarnation of "Aforgomon", has the forbidden power to break the rules of time and space.
"Dark side". Lel.

Also, "incarnation" implies "Aforgomon" is itself a "true form". The text here merely says that Yog has multiple personalities which manifest as different forms. Nothing about this necessitates a "true form".
 
"Dark side". Lel.

Also, "incarnation" implies "Aforgomon" is itself a "true form". The text here merely says that Yog has multiple personalities which manifest as different forms. Nothing about this necessitates a "true form"
What do you mean? The scan clearly states that it’s an avatar, so how could it possibly be the true body? You’re trying to distort the information based on your own misinterpretation

And please provide the scan that states Yog has multiple personalities that manifest as different forms, instead of making up baseless information like this
 
Okay, are you trying to play a word-interpretation game with me or what?
Original sentence:
尤格索托斯的阴暗面, 名为“亚弗戈蒙”的化身, 拥有打破时空规则的禁忌之力
Key term breakdown:
化身 (huàshēn) = avatar

And could you also provide scans that actually talk about the points you’re discussing in more detail?
Not just keep asking me to provide scans on my side alone
 
Okay, are you trying to play a word-interpretation game with me or what?
Original sentence:
尤格索托斯的阴暗面, 名为“亚弗戈蒙”的化身, 拥有打破时空规则的禁忌之力
Key term breakdown:
化身 (huàshēn) = avatar

And could you also provide scans that actually talk about the points you’re discussing in more detail?
Not just keep asking me to provide scans on my side alone
Does it translate as “avatar of Aforgomon” or “avatar Aforgomon”
 
Ye Im pretty sure that all it’s saying is that Yog has multiple personalities and that each one has their own physical form lel.

I don’t have to explain why multiple personalities is a big no-no for the tier.
Yog is just uhh multiple persons (ignore that persons in the tier 0 sense and personalities are completely different) but one in essence
 
Ye Im pretty sure that all it’s saying is that Yog has multiple personalities and that each one has their own physical form lel.

I don’t have to explain why multiple personalities is a big no-no for the tier.
Why are you so confident that Yog has multiple personalities, each with its own physical form?
And please provide scans to support your explanation instead of making things up.
(It feels like I’ve had to repeat this to you for the second or third time already, yet you still don’t seem to care about it at all. Is providing scans really that difficult?)
 
Sigh I wasn't expecting to make 1 more comment but 🗿
To keep this from being derailed, I want no response from this as this is my last comment I'll make here
Her not being bounded is literally layed out in the fifth Kizuna entry.

“This is how divine power works. Humans grow old, their skin turns gray, but how can the world within the words? This is the divine power of God, "description", or "definition". The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from everything, we can create everything, and so everything is born in our hands.”
This means nothing, without more context. It doesn't fully imply to Transcend all , and what are those boundaries they are talking about? For all that could be said is free from boundaries from lower dimensions. I hate using Nirvana statements.
But this is almost too similar to that and there just isn't context that fully implies this

Do you even know what the cosmology of GGZ consists of? And another thing—GGZ doesn’t share a unified cosmology with HoYo at all. If you’ve really played this game, you should know that already, lol
Second. SoQ and IM T are mentioned, they don't share the same cosmology but whoever did said verses worded it like that and bits and pieces? And I have played the games , back before it was taken off and the play store with the ****!y translations...

And third! The mentions of Mythology is still a lot, and that has been looked over from what I can still see. Not a whole lot compared to the last 4ish pages, but holy lol, if we scaled based on Mythology there'd be too much upscaling Once again I shot down this idea, as it was being used to get L1A dragon ball which is already a no but enough off topic! Ok now with that said, point made clear! And as I said B4 read it but don't respond to it

And also while at it.. however this CRT goes, it should be a clear setting to.. separate the pages and have actually made supporters working on GGz, get translation helpers for that I'm ngl. GGz verse is lacking
 
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