Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth Downgrade: Logical Problem With Tao

[BlazeISbot111]

You're misunderstanding. It's not tier 0 because "lol taoism", so diverging a bit from taoism doesn't mean tier 0 is suddenly invalid. Also lmao you're claiming something not in line with taoism while the wikipedia thing you sent literally says the same thing at the end.

"Lol Taoism". That got a laugh. Ok jokes aside,

1- I am not saying diverting from Taoism should mean we should ignore the argument. I am saying that we in literal terms should not associate any work with irl concepts just only scale based on what has been shown. (Not necessarily concepts but rather something extraordinary)

2- Ineffability by itself isn't enough to get T0, atleast not for a character who doesn't have High 1A+ cosmology to support such arguments. Yes, you can argue qualifications for other requirements but that would be committing false dichotomy.

3- If we ignore these issues then we should also practice these standards for other areas. Let's give High 1A+ (type 2) smurf hax to everyone with Mathematics and Logic Manipulation. Who cares if it breaks foundational principles. We already are very linenet with even the most important tier to the point "no anti-feat with single qualification" is enough for T0.

 

[Thunderman101]

following

 

[Voidnether]

Hello everyone, East here back with another attempt to downgrade another character and this CRT we are going to focus on Yog-Sothoth of Gun Girl Z… okay it sounds cringe alright. This is her profile and this is when first it was brought up, this is the CRT in which it was accepted.

The topic of today is… indeed, controversial, as we are going straight for a supposedly Tier-0 character downgrade.

So if you are knowledgeable about Tier-0 and have read the profile, you probably have understood the problem there, and maybe the CRT in which it was accepted didn't answer the questions. And that's why we are coming with this downgrade within this CRT.

It would be a short and straightforward CRT since the problems are clear and blatant.

Without much delay, let us start.
​

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The Eternal Nameless Tao… merely a bubble of Yog-Sothoth?

So if you had read the profile itself, you see this as the justification for Tier-0 in the Attack Potency section.

Why it is the problem?

Just read this,

RAW:


TL:


Co-dependent property with the bubbles? At first one thought this was referring to a lesser property and going by the way of "negation of divine properties" explanation (Apophatic theology). But is this justification truly enough?

Through the CRT, it accepted “because Nameless Tao”, yet as we see here the “Eternal Nameless Tao/Dao” is not so eternal after all and is merely another of Yog-Sothoth's bubbles, despite it also being the essence of existence. It shows that trying to justify the state of Tier-0 for Yog-Sothoth via the Tao/Dao philosophy is nothing but Nominal and Association Fallacy as the “Tao” in the verse doesn't share the same properties as the one from Philosophy.

Tao is the one in Taoism that is the ineffable, indivisible and eternal Tao that grounds everything. GGZ Yog being beyond it, pretty much defeats Tao's Primacy.



Which Yog-Sothoth's bubble defeats this metaphysical ground (which also was not properly established within the verse from start). Yog-Sothoth, with its description, negates the divine properties of Tao itself in a flawed way.


​

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Beyond Definition & Description: Is it enough?


To continue, the very next link is this, it is when the narrator speaks directly to us, the reader, and breaks the fourth wall actually, within the story of Praise My Lord.


When you read it, you see the line about Yog-Sothoth being beyond definition and description which confirms its ineffable essence, yet it also further confirms that the whole bubble description and the concept of Nameless Tao within was what it is, a description and a metaphor. So all that remains here is the fact that Yog-Sothoth is “beyond definition and description”, but is it enough for Tier-0? I do not think so, unless we give any character with any form of Apophatic Theology or Ineffable essence.



That can be said the only thing GGZ Yog-Sothoth has, and Transduality too due to transcending Yin and Yang and we know it exists in Babylon too due to Mother's description.
​

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So you might wonder why we are not reaching out to anything new within CRT, and I agree with you. Because based on the profile and CRT, that's it. That was literally the entire Tier-0 justification for GGZ Yog-Sothoth, Ineffable essence, and of course “Tao” while as we see is merely a bubble of Yog-Sothoth and metamorphosis.

Generally, these are the whole argument.

So I propose this:

1-A: True Form (via TD3 and Primacy).
L1-A: Avatar (scaling to cosmology).

Unless more context is presented, I see the arguments for Tier-0 GGZ Yog-Sothoth insufficient, and nothing but a very charitable scale to the highest possible interpretation based on a false equivalence and misconception about Tao inverse.​

Yeah, no, they all originate from Yog-Sothoth, the current description is lacking when Yog-Sothoth itself should be like the origin of everything here if anything.

It is explained here that Yog-Sothoth is the origin of religions, wisdom and the eternal bubble, the eternal bubbles are both the True Boddhisatva where it transcends divisions and separations entirely then we have the Nameless Tao in which it is origin of all things which transcends all named things and is beyond definitions. Wisdom here is stated to be the void of vanity that's incomprehensible in nature, in which Yog-Sothoth transcends the very description/definitions that form the world with its true form leaving a ray of dazzling brilliance.

These are the clearest example of Tier 0 that you can get, my proposal? Yog-Sothoth as the source of these is also inherent to those, so the entire Yog-Sothoth being the origin of religions, wisdom and the eternal bubble are all inherent characteristics to her True Form here, I disagree.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

It is explained here that Yog-Sothoth is the origin of religions

This statement is useless.

wisdom and the eternal bubble, the eternal bubbles are both the True Boddhisatva where it transcends divisions and separations entirely then we have the Nameless Tao in which it is origin of all things which transcends all named things and is beyond definitions.

Both descriptions are not meant to be taken literally. They are simply meant to show how normal human beings interpret the forbidden knowledge they obtain through Yog, filtered through different schools of thought that vary across cultures.

Yog’s “true form” resides in the white void (Heaven), where she is just another goddess of the Babylon Academy within the Cthulhu branch.

Hello.
Congratulations on arriving here.
You may want to ask, what kind of place is this?
Oh... how should I put it? This is Heaven, the Sea of Stars, the Immortal Realm, a residence beyond space and time.

Even Nyarlathotep can access Yog’s domain. She is not some supreme deity or anything like that. Each branch has its own independent mythology.

So, what do you think? Pretty nice place, isn't it? That trickster Nyarlathotep tries to con me into handing it over every single day.

Yog is not literally the Tao, and she is not literally Nirvana either.

Wisdom here is stated to be the void of vanity that's incomprehensible in nature, in which Yog-Sothoth transcends the very description/definitions that form the world

This is not tier 0.

with its true form leaving a ray of dazzling brilliance.

This is completely taken out of context. The statement is not talking about a “true form” in the sense of something transcendent above everything. It is simply referring to how Yog, in her Aforgomon form, kills everyone who reaches her domain so quickly that nobody is able to actually see her Aforgomon form as such, which is easy to understand if you take the context of the description into account.

It is the equivalent of saying that character X eradicates all visitors to their plane so fast that nobody can make out their form. That is all.

Yog-Sothoth: Among Scorching Embers
https://imgur.com/a/Gt4r6Ji
The dark side of Yog-Sothoth, an incarnation known as ‘Aforgomon,’ wields the forbidden power to shatter the laws of time and space. Compared to her primary form, she is far more irritable and volatile. Any human who trespasses into her chamber is consumed by her wrath—erased from the past, from the future, and from every trace of worldly existence. As a result, almost no one has seen her true form, and the surviving records of her image reveal only a blinding incandescence.

The character’s current scaling relies far too much on how ordinary humans perceive a deity beyond their understanding and then try to adapt that knowledge to their faith. On top of that, Yog is not special. She is not the only member of the Cthulhu Branch in the academy, nor is it ever stated anywhere that she is the most powerful, something that is explicitly said about other entities in the Babylon Academy (hell, even Azathoth got more prestige than her).

So yeah, I agree with the downgrade. The only way you can mantain the tier 0 is doing mad mental gymnastics and ignoring the fact that Yog is literally a weapon in-game before awakening her.

Tier 0 weapon fr.

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

I admit the justifications are kinda ass. Idk why but I wrote nameless Tao is born from Yog Sothoth's bubble which is not. The text here is not referring to Eternal Tao and just Tao that can be expressed.
And Yog sothoth doesn't exist beyond Eternal Tao. Yog Sothoth is Eternal Tao. Because Bubbles and doors are merely a medium between mortal world and her world.


Yog Sothoth having the power of "description" or "definition" and transcending boundaries which make her beyond definition or in Taoists' word, Nameless.


If this was the case, staffs would have rejected it outright. Staffs said the game description is already enough to support its own ground.
All in all, what you proposing here is to downgrade a tier 0 just because it only has few scans. There're few tier 0 profiles which has under 10 scans. If you wanna remove one for its lack of more scans, might as well remove them all. No?

Instead of tier downgrade, I think we should just fix the justifications and some errors in profile. I was relatively new to making profile back then.

……
So it all was some semantic problem, after all. Just the wording made it problematic to Tier-0. The way the profile was worded made it look like a disqualifier for T0 to me so I decided to make this CRT.

Alright what I am getting is

Eternal Dao (Yog) -> Trodden Dao that is named

Can you also address the scans that say Yog-Sothoth is Eternal Dao?

If that turns out to be the case then I assume it's fine as long as it qualifies for T0, my main argument was that the justification on the profile doesn't qualify for T0. Also if possible I would like scans that back up these assertions since the ones on the profile itself implies the otherwise.

Before replying, I want to make it clear I do agree with the downgrade but not all the arguments brought by OP.


Going by the quote itself, the "Door" itself is the thing that is associated to be primary, with named Tao which comes forth from it, while the door itself contains Nameless Tao inside it. I do not see your justification.



To me these justifications are seemingly association to irl concepts rather than what the work depicted:


Scaling over Association is something that shouldn't be prevalent as much as it is with it being a literal fallacy accepted by the wiki, this Association itself is unfounded with the quote itself contradicting the Taoism.

GGZ here distinguishes Tao/Dao that is troden upon from Eternal Tao.

Which is not in-line with the foundational beliefs of Taoism itself that grounds every other such beliefs.



I do not understand on what grounds staff accepted this, I do not see any arguments besides primacy as qualification.

For a tier of such importance I consider this proposal. We should disqualify characters that do not have enough qualifications for their tier in their works.

Interesting.

Yes, it is also one of my own problems with the case, you make valid point regarding association.

To add to this.

Even if Yog is Tao itself, all it does is show primacy, but the status quo of all things is still dependent on how Dao functions in relation to the bubbles.

The overexplanation that GGZ adds to it

It arises from the bubbles, and towards their direction it is born.

implies the process of becoming rather than a fully actualized state itself. "Eternal" and "nameless" is not an actual existing property but rather is a probable (conditional) state that becomes via the process of Dao and how the bubbles move towards them.

This is supported lightly by how in actual Taoism, Tao is the underlying phase which gives all things meaning and structure (actual nameless property),

"Dao" in ggz is implying a state or process of becoming, whose final state is eternal, but it doesn't exist yet, since Dao is what creates all things, and named properties only become actual after they become part of the process rather than already existing prior (as it should be).

 

[SuperNova55555]

Yeah, no, they all originate from Yog-Sothoth, the current description is lacking when Yog-Sothoth itself should be like the origin of everything here if anything.

It is explained here that Yog-Sothoth is the origin of religions, wisdom and the eternal bubble, the eternal bubbles are both the True Boddhisatva where it transcends divisions and separations entirely then we have the Nameless Tao in which it is origin of all things which transcends all named things and is beyond definitions. Wisdom here is stated to be the void of vanity that's incomprehensible in nature, in which Yog-Sothoth transcends the very description/definitions that form the world with its true form leaving a ray of dazzling brilliance.

These are the clearest example of Tier 0 that you can get, my proposal? Yog-Sothoth as the source of these is also inherent to those, so the entire Yog-Sothoth being the origin of religions, wisdom and the eternal bubble are all inherent characteristics to her True Form here, I disagree.

This is just the same ineffable stuff.

I find the usage of “Wisdom” here particularly interesting, because then it means that it can’t be that Yog then posits supra-essentiality like the Tao. Not that it would make sense either way, as there’s also no statements about her undifferentiation. And I already stated above how Being-itself also doesn’t fit here because she also lacks any statements for pure simplicity or even just being a totality. There’s also no statements about non-duality to be found particularly enough.

I think this is like, High 1-A+ Type 1 at the very best

 

[Voidnether]

This statement is useless.



Both descriptions are not meant to be taken literally. They are simply meant to show how normal human beings interpret the forbidden knowledge they obtain through Yog, filtered through different schools of thought that vary across cultures.

Yog’s “true form” resides in the white void (Heaven), where she is just another goddess of the Babylon Academy within the Cthulhu branch.



Even Nyarlathotep can access Yog’s domain. She is not some supreme deity or anything like that. Each branch has its own independent mythology.



Yog is not literally the Tao, and she is not literally Nirvana either.



This is not tier 0.



This is completely taken out of context. The statement is not talking about a “true form” in the sense of something transcendent above everything. It is simply referring to how Yog, in her Aforgomon form, kills everyone who reaches her domain so quickly that nobody is able to actually see her Aforgomon form as such, which is easy to understand if you take the context of the description into account.

It is the equivalent of saying that character X eradicates all visitors to their plane so fast that nobody can make out their form. That is all.



The character’s current scaling relies far too much on how ordinary humans perceive a deity beyond their understanding and then try to adapt that knowledge to their faith. On top of that, Yog is not special. She is not the only member of the Cthulhu Branch in the academy, nor is it ever stated anywhere that she is the most powerful, something that is explicitly said about other entities in the Babylon Academy (hell, even Azathoth got more prestige than her).

So yeah, I agree with the downgrade. The only way you can mantain the tier 0 is doing mad mental gymnastics and ignoring the fact that Yog is literally a weapon in-game before awakening her.

Tier 0 weapon fr.

All of this are already addressed in the original thread so I wouldn't waste my time here imo.

……
So it all was some semantic problem, after all. Just the wording made it problematic to Tier-0. The way the profile was worded made it look like a disqualifier for T0 to me so I decided to make this CRT.

Alright what I am getting is

Eternal Dao (Yog) -> Trodden Dao that is named

Can you also address the scans that say Yog-Sothoth is Eternal Dao?

If that turns out to be the case then I assume it's fine as long as it qualifies for T0, my main argument was that the justification on the profile doesn't qualify for T0. Also if possible I would like scans that back up these assertions since the ones on the profile itself implies the otherwise.



Yes, it is also one of my own problems with the case, you make valid point regarding association.

To add to this.

Even if Yog is Tao itself, all it does is show primacy, but the status quo of all things is still dependent on how Dao functions in relation to the bubbles.

The overexplanation that GGZ adds to it




implies the process of becoming rather than a fully actualized state itself. "Eternal" and "nameless" is not an actual existing property but rather is a probable (conditional) state that becomes via the process of Dao and how the bubbles move towards them.

This is supported lightly by how in actual Taoism, Tao is the underlying phase which gives all things meaning and structure (actual nameless property),

"Dao" in ggz is implying a state or process of becoming, whose final state is eternal, but it doesn't exist yet, since Dao is what creates all things, and named properties only become actual after they become part of the process rather than already existing prior (as it should be).

I mean, the Eternal Tao is inherent to Yog-Sothoth, no?

This is just the same ineffable stuff.

I find the usage of “Wisdom” here particularly interesting, because then it means that it can’t be that Yog then posits supra-essentiality like the Tao. Not that it would make sense either way, as there’s also no statements about her undifferentiation. And I already stated above how Being-itself also doesn’t fit here because she also lacks any statements for pure simplicity or even just being a totality. There’s also no statements about non-duality to be found particularly enough.

I think this is like, High 1-A+ Type 1 at the very best

Well, Yog-Sothoth would have to be Type 2 since Type 1 is for manipulating all possible worlds.

The thread isn't going anywhere, especially without Ultima as a whole, I see the arguments made by Berny as nothing more as something that's already addressed in the original thread proposal for Tier 0 here lol.

 

[Cipher72]

Before further arguments I feel like we should tag other staff members who participated in the previous discussions to give their inputs.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

All of this are already addressed in the original thread so I wouldn't waste my time here imo.

Lmao. I take that as a concession.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Well, Yog-Sothoth would have to be Type 2 since Type 1 is for manipulating all possible worlds

Type 2 is the aforementioned totality of logical space. You’d need a statement about Yog-Sothoth being an All-In-One at the very least. But at that point, you’d have Tier 0 anyways.

Type 1 is just being lenient and going with the interpretation that Yog-Sothoth can define anything written in language, but I’m not even sure if that’s true, I’ll have to re-check the statements

 

[Voidnether]

Lmao. I take that as a concession.

I mean, you wouldn't see the light of day where Umineko is higher than Honkaiverse.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I mean, you wouldn't see the light of day where Umineko is higher than Honkaiverse.

Damn, bro is so salty that he is bringing up other verses now. Hilarious.

Anyways, let's wait for staff members.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Damn, bro is so salty that he is bringing up other verses now. Hilarious.

Anyways, let's wait for staff members.

The Creator would be higher than this loli even if she were Tier 0

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Type 1 is just being lenient and going with the interpretation that Yog-Sothoth can define anything written in language, but I’m not even sure if that’s true, I’ll have to re-check the statements

That is never stated whatsoever. Like I wrote in my previous message, the Cthulhu Branch is its own mythology, different from every other one. You can think about it the way Fate works.

The only thing that is mentioned is that the gods possess the power of "definition", which allows them to establish limits, but it is not very clear how far that ability actually extends.

 

[Mr._East_Statement]

I mean, you wouldn't see the light of day where Umineko is higher than Honkaiverse.

Can you (or anyone) not drill the CRT by bringing other verses? I appreciate it since it just makes the CRT longer and further away from the main point.

Also, also to your previous reply…

Question: If Yog-Sothoth is the source of all religions, can't one argue that Taoism itself would have originated from Yog as a supportive argument for bubbles > Tao?

If she is the origin of all religions, even Taoism teachings would be what that rather originates from her, similar to all other religions, as she is the wisdom itself as it been stated. To use the fact that she's the source of all religions it would not be of help for Tier-0 state.

 

[Voidnether]

Can you (or anyone) not drill the CRT by bringing other verses? I appreciate it since it just makes the CRT longer and further away from the main point.

Also, also to your previous reply…

Question: If Yog-Sothoth is the source of all religions, can't one argue that Taoism itself would have originated from Yog as a supportive argument for bubbles > Tao?

If she is the origin of all religions, even Taoism teachings would be what that rather originates from her, similar to all other religions, as she is the wisdom itself as it been stated. To use the fact that she's the source of all religions it would not be of help for Tier-0 state.

Tao is actually the bubble, it's like Wisdom who's also one and it's explained as the void of vanity, and these bubbles are inherent to Yog.

Like Ultima said on the original thread, this is still the clearest evidence of Tier 0 if anything so again, unless Ultima changed his mind or whatever, yeah.. I still don't see anything in the Kizuna Entry that would contradict it..

 

[SuperNova55555]

Tao is actually the bubble, it's like Wisdom who's also one and it's explained as the void of vanity, and these bubbles are inherent to Yog.

What about this is Tier 0 lol.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The previous thread was a whole year ago, and looking through it, I didn't even see any posts from me. Did I voice something on a message wall or something?
Anyway, neutral for now. I'd rather have a summarized memory refresher and a fair analysis on for the grain and against the grain.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Like Ultima said on the original thread, this is still the clearest evidence of Tier 0 if anything so again, unless Ultima changed his mind or whatever, yeah.. I still don't see anything in the Kizuna Entry that would contradict it..

Ah yes, the classic old tactic of “Ultima said this forty thousand years ago without having the actual context of the scans, therefore it is absolute law, cannot be questioned, and I am not obligated to respond to anything.”

Forget Ultima and actually try to address everything that has been written so far. I am giving you genuine advice here, because honestly, your defense is not making Tier 0 look very good at all.

 

[Breakdown]

That is never stated whatsoever. Like I wrote in my previous message, the Cthulhu Branch is its own mythology, different from every other one. You can think about it the way Fate works.

The only thing that is mentioned is that the gods possess the power of "definition", which allows them to establish limits, but it is not very clear how far that ability actually extends.

it’s clear that Yog’s ability to define worlds extends to everything.

From the 5th Kizuna Entry:

You, for example, are looking at this line of text, and as I am, I am looking at you through this line of text.

This is how divine power works. Humans grow old, their skin turns gray, but how can the world within the words? This is the divine power of God, "description", or "definition". The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from everything, we can create everything, and so everything is born in our hands.

Many people through the ages have expressed their ideas through words, seeing them as tools, but they have not imagined that the real world is born in words all the time, so that just one word may contribute to the rise of a universe from the idea of chaos, and then fixed, never to perish again.

-This is the divine power itself that God has given us, but unfortunately the majority of people can only use it in an ignorant way, even ignoring its spirituality.

Now, use it and create your world, unconstrained by time and space, eternally independent.

Everything is created by language, words, and description, and Yog can make anything. She also is beyond any sort of description or definition.

.

Also, also to your previous reply…

Question: If Yog-Sothoth is the source of all religions, can't one argue that Taoism itself would have originated from Yog as a supportive argument for bubbles > Tao?

If she is the origin of all religions, even Taoism teachings would be what that rather originates from her, similar to all other religions, as she is the wisdom itself as it been stated. To use the fact that she's the source of all religions it would not be of help for Tier-0 state.

Religion is a way to approach the divine. It is not the divine. Especially something like Taoism, which is a version of Apothatic/Negative Theology which posits that the ultimate divinity cannot be quantified in human terms. In Taoist words, “The Tao which can be named is not the eternal Tao.” This is similar to St. Augustine’s statement, “If you understand it, then it is not God.”
The teachings and all of Taoism come from Yog Sotthoth, but the Tao is not limited by Taoism. If it was, then it could be named, and wouldn’t be the Tao.

 

[Voidnether]

What about this is Tier 0 lol.

The "ineffable" stuff that you reduced to High 1-A+ is actually the main requirement for Omnipotence through transcending divisions, separations, definitions and limitations entirely as in being beyond them whatsoever.

Ah yes, the classic old tactic of “Ultima said this forty thousand years ago without having the actual context of the scans, therefore it is absolute law, cannot be questioned, and I am not obligated to respond to anything.”

Forget Ultima and actually try to address everything that has been written so far. I am giving you genuine advice here, because honestly, your defense is not making Tier 0 look very good at all.

I already explained it with scans linked that it fits the main requirement for Omnipotence, all of your arguments are already addressed in the original thread, if you want someone to re-address it, just ask Weaver.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Ah yes, the classic old tactic of “Ultima said this forty thousand years ago without having the actual context of the scans, therefore it is absolute law, cannot be questioned, and I am not obligated to respond to anything.”

Forget Ultima and actually try to address everything that has been written so far. I am giving you genuine advice here, because honestly, your defense is not making Tier 0 look very good at all.

I love how ultima suddenly isnt most reliable admin that we can appeal to but we can send random jeet to change entire ******* standard of low 1A simply because he asked ultima to amp his ass great

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

it’s clear that Yog’s ability to define worlds extends to everything.

From the 5th Kizuna Entry:

You, for example, are looking at this line of text, and as I am, I am looking at you through this line of text.

This is how divine power works. Humans grow old, their skin turns gray, but how can the world within the words? This is the divine power of God, "description", or "definition". The only way to define the boundaries is to transcend them, and because we are free from everything, we can create everything, and so everything is born in our hands.

Many people through the ages have expressed their ideas through words, seeing them as tools, but they have not imagined that the real world is born in words all the time, so that just one word may contribute to the rise of a universe from the idea of chaos, and then fixed, never to perish again.

-This is the divine power itself that God has given us, but unfortunately the majority of people can only use it in an ignorant way, even ignoring its spirituality.

Now, use it and create your world, unconstrained by time and space, eternally independent.

Everything is created by language, words, and description, and Yog can make anything. She also is beyond any sort of description or definition.

Yeah. I have never denied that Yog’s power is extremely far reaching within her own worldview. What I am talking about is how far that actually extends in a more general sense when centered on the Tiering System.

You can perfectly replicate everything that text says at almost any tier, because the kind of language being used is contingent on the verse’s own cosmology.

Obviously, this idea of “losing all limits” is not absolute, because there is no dissolution of the self in Heaven, nor is there a dissolution of the subject object relationship or anything at that level. It is simply a plane that is transcendent with respect to the material, which is why it is said to transcend space and time.

This reads more like creation ex nihilo through narrative manipulation. I would not have an issue with 1-A.

 

[Da3ggman]

3- If we ignore these issues then we should also practice these standards for other areas. Let's give High 1A+ (type 2) smurf hax to everyone with Mathematics and Logic Manipulation.

Apparently that might happen actually

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I love how ultima suddenly isnt most reliable admin that we can appeal to but we can send random jeet to change entire ******* standard of low 1A simply because he asked ultima to amp his ass great

Genuinely what are you talking about lol

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Apparently that might happen actually

Nah, that's not how it is gonna work. As far as I've read, it is gonna be way more strict.

 

[SuperNova55555]

The "ineffable" stuff that you reduced to High 1-A+ is actually the main requirement for Omnipotence through transcending divisions, separations, definitions and limitations entirely as in being beyond them whatsoever.

This is not the main requirement for Tier 0 lol. It’s actually quite the opposite; ineffability is a derivative of ontology. It’s why Pure Act is ineffable differently to the Tao.

If you merely say something is unnamed or unattainable by the human mind, then you say nothing about its ontic status. Even noumena, as our mind lacks the a priori conditions to comprehend them, are completely beyond knowledge. But they sure as hell aren’t Tier 0; far from it actually.

The Tao is ineffable because it is hyper-noetic, in that it is causally prior to the Taiji, which contains Knowledge as united with all things.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I should mention in FYI that Ultima switched to neutral later down the line and what was his most recent post back then. Also, tier 0 might get revitalized based on the outcome of this thread. So not sure if we may want to put conclusion on hold until then.

 

[Breakdown]

Genuinely what are you talking about lol

He’s going through a Vietnam Veteran and Joker Arc at the same time

 

[SuperNova55555]

Genuinely what are you talking about lol

Pretty sure this is about Telomera. I gave them a lil taste of L1A again and vro is still salty

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I should mention in FYI that Ultima switched to neutral later down the line and what was his most recent post back then. Also, tier 0 might get revitalized based on the outcome of this thread. So not sure if we may want to put conclusion on hold until then.

Regardless of the changes, the point is that there is nothing Tier 0 here in general (it's not even debatable at all). So it does not make sense to stop the thread waiting for a revision that we do not even know will pass.

Anyway, I will resume my position later. My head hurts right now.

 

[Da3ggman]

Nah, that's not how it is gonna work. As far as I've read, it is gonna be way more strict.

Oh….no Outer WoU for me then…

 

[Voidnether]

I should mention in FYI that Ultima switched to neutral later down the line and what was his most recent post back then. Also, tier 0 might get revitalized based on the outcome of this thread. So not sure if we may want to put conclusion on hold until then.

I mean, this thread isn't going anywhere unless Ultima himself comes to this thread

Oh….no Outer WoU for me then...

They called me a madman for scaling WoU to High 1-A+ back when Logic Manipulation existed as a proposal page that gives its user High 1-A+...

 

[Breakdown]

Yeah. I have never denied that Yog’s power is extremely far reaching within her own worldview. What I am talking about is how far that actually extends in a more general sense when centered on the Tiering System.

You can perfectly replicate everything that text says at almost any tier, because the kind of language being used is contingent on the verse’s own cosmology.

Obviously, this idea of “losing all limits” is not absolute, because there is no dissolution of the self in Heaven, nor is there a dissolution of the subject object relationship or anything at that level. It is simply a plane that is transcendent with respect to the material, which is why it is said to transcend space and time.

This reads more like creation ex nihilo through narrative manipulation. I would not have an issue with 1-A.

Ying and yang explicitly are stated to make up the universe. Taking this with the second Kizuna entry, Yog fulfills the requirements for being without distinction and ineffable via being the Tao.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Ying and yang explicitly are stated to make up the universe. Taking this with the second Kizuna entry, Yog fulfills the requirements for being without distinction and ineffable via being the Tao.

Following.

Tho I should mention:

This statement while not directly collaborating with, is later exemplified in HSR to be referring to HooH, who doesn’t qualify Yin and Yang in a meaningful sense. As it only describes the functions of Imaginary Energy, and more essentially Real Space. Otherwise he’d be 1-A as well.

In any case, any general statement for Yin and Yang could never qualify for a Tier, hax or any scaling implications for that matter. Aside from rare cases like Nasuverse (or LOTM ) who qualify what these terms insinuate for the verses’ metaphysical framework.

Naturally I have no context on GGZ tho so I’ma wait for supporters. Buttttt I’ve heard some incriminating stuff here and there

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Ying and yang explicitly are stated to make up the universe. Taking this with the second Kizuna entry, Yog fulfills the requirements for being without distinction and ineffable via being the Tao.

......did you even read my messages, like at all???

 

[DragoZeroNova]

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

the point is that there is nothing Tier 0 here in general (it's not even debatable at all).

If it wasn't debatable like you claim, then I highly doubt people who are more knowledgeable than you on the tier would have allowed it to pass to begin with. Also Phoenk's has already disagreed, so this just kinda comes off as very arrogant for no real reason.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

If it wasn't debatable like you claim, then I highly doubt people who are more knowledgeable than you on the tier would have allowed it to pass to begin with.

Ultima did not play GGZ. He does not know how the verse works, and his only way of understanding the scans was through the same supporters who, in this very thread, are demonstrating that they do not know how Tier 0 works. He agreed with tier 0 because he interpreted all that yap of the dao sutra and the buddhist sutra as literal when I've already explained above that it is not.

He even switched to neutral later in the same thread

I should mention in FYI that Ultima switched to neutral later down the line and what was his most recent post back then.

I am going to repeat this one more time, and hopefully it will be the last. Can we stop appealing to something Ultima said fifty centuries ago and actually respond to the arguments?

Let us stop using the victimization strategy for everything, please. I have not said anything offensive nor arrogant, and that approach is not going to help you defend the tier.

Also Phoenk's has already disagreed, so this just kinda comes off as very arrogant for no real reason.

So what? Phoenks isn't an admin of this wiki, he is an admin of the OC version of VSBW.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

Ultima did not play GGZ. He does not know how the verse works, and his only way of understanding the scans was through the same supporters who, in this very thread, are demonstrating that they do not know how Tier 0 works.

If every staff was required to play a game, watch an anime, or read a story that was on the wiki then we would never have 85% of the verses indexed as we currently do.

I am going to repeat this one more time, and hopefully it will be the last. Can we stop appealing to something Ultima said fifty centuries ago and actually respond to the arguments?

I agree people should appeal to the arguments, but it doesn't change the fact that Ultima's words as one of the pioneers of the tiers for this wiki, holds immensely more weight than anything either of you guys can say (welcome to VSBW).

So what? Phoenix isn't an admin of this wiki, he is an admin of the OC version of VSBW.

Doesn't change the fact that he brought up a good point that I haven't seen anyone address yet, you were the one who just said to actually respond to arguments were you not? I brought it up because I hadn't seen anyone say anything against him.