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juggernaut is ✨Magic✨ vro

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You guys are complicating something that was obvious. It's clear as day that Jugger isn't a skilled spellcaster, but basic magic isn't for skilled magicians but just people who can manipulate magic itself in any form. Actual mages are listed as low sorcerers and above. Just look at the examples given to basic magic users, Mindless Ones, Hulk/Gamma, and Ghost Rider, they all aren't sorcerers but still manipulate the energy itself. Even some of the gods aren't skilled magicians but still can use magic to a very basic form. You guys are acting like Maverik is trying to list him as the next Sorcerer Supreme, lmao.

Yeah, give Jugger basic magic.
 
Tomfer said:
You guys are complicating something that was obvious. It's clear as day that Jugger isn't a skilled spellcaster, but basic magic isn't for skilled magicians but just people who can manipulate magic itself in any form. Actual mages are listed as low sorcerers and above. Just look at the examples given to basic magic users, Mindless Ones, Hulk/Gamma, and Ghost Rider, they all aren't sorcerers but still manipulate the energy itself. Even some of the gods aren't skilled magicians but still can use magic to a very basic form. You guys are acting like Maverik is trying to list him as the next Sorcerer Supreme, lmao.

Yeah, give Jugger basic magic.
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What kind of abilities would that include? Hulk, the Mindless Ones, and otherwise shouldn't have any undemonstrated powers either. 🙏
 
Went to check the issue, got some interesting results.

Doctor Strange #182 (1968)

Juggernaut was trapped by Cyttorak's spell, trapping him in his dimension and preventing his return to Earth. During his time there he gained mystical abilities which seems to include electrical blasts, forces Nightmare to shrink and collide into him, and generic magic blasts strong enough to break Eternity's bonds (granted Eternity literally allowed himself to be held in place, but the fact Nightmare thought they should've worked and the fact Juggernaut was clashing with him in his own realm does hold some credit for this being on the 1-A level)

Edit: I also just realized this example of him clashing also showcases him creating magical restraints which causes smoke to rise from Nightmare's head (so it's heat based). Don't know if this is a variation of the Crimson Bands or just a generic magic ability
 
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Antvasima said:
What kind of abilities would that include?
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Like I said before, Ant. Juggernaut isn't getting any magical beam that alters the plot of any fight or something similar to that. It's just his source of power (and his shield) that is magical in nature, it's basic magic through and through. And it shouldn't be a surprise to you guys, avatars of gods have shown magical capabilities before, it's a pretty normal thing for them to do.

I guess it would be a good buff against power null characters and people who can alter his shield but that's pretty much it.

Antvasima said:
Hulk, the Mindless Ones, and otherwise shouldn't have any undemonstrated powers either. 🙏
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Your judgment is, at best, questionable.
 
Remind us what powers that are automatically included with "basic magic" please. 🙏
 
 
AyOgUyS said:
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Say what? Juggernaut, Hulk, She-Hulk, The Mindless Ones, and so onwards, have not demonstrated anywhere near that versatility of powers. That definitely needs to be corrected. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Say what? Juggernaut, Hulk, She-Hulk, The Mindless Ones, and so onwards, have not demonstrated anywhere near that versatility of powers. That definitely needs to be corrected. 🙏
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They are part of the Nature of magic. They are what makes up magic. They don't need to display any of those abilities okay 👍
 
Yes, they very much do. Otherwise we are engaging in massive amounts of fanon/undemonstrated headcanon powers and abilities that have never remotely been implied or demonstrated within the stories themselves. It is absolutely unacceptable amounts of extremely unreliable exaggerations that greatly harm the quality and reputation of our wiki as a whole. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Say what? Juggernaut, Hulk, She-Hulk, The Mindless Ones, and so onwards, have not demonstrated anywhere near that versatility of powers. That definitely needs to be corrected. 🙏
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Aside from what Excel said, the Hulks only use magic when unleashing Gamma, and the Mindless Ones only have magic through their beam
 
Yes. Agreed, so why should they have lots of undemonstrated abilities automatically listed as "basic magic"? 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Yes. Agreed, so why should they have lots of undemonstrated abilities automatically listed as "basic magic"? 🙏
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I don't get it, there are many pages for universal energy systems of each verse just like this one, they don't need to demonstrate the abilities in the page as long as they have that kind of energy, in this case since those characters have abilities that are magical in nature then automatically they get basic magic.
 
From what I understand Ant, those are just the properties of utilizing Magic within the Marvel Universe.

Like in Naruto if you can spit fire (Fire Manipulation, Breath attack) then that would also mean you can control Chakra (Chi Manipulation), because that's how Ninjutsu works within the Naruto Series.
 
Well, Marvel Comics is not remotely sufficiently coherent between its many hundreds of writers and editors to assume that the Hulk, She-Hulk, and similar, are automatically versatile spellcasters because of their partially magic natures, despite that they have never remotely displayed such abilities. It is definitely NOT the same as Naruto, which only has a single writer deciding its system. 🙏
 
Meh I suppose. I can't speak on Marvel cause I know nothing about it, so I suppose I'm neutral on the OP
 
Antvasima said:
Well, Marvel Comics is not remotely sufficiently coherent between its many hundreds of writers and editors to assume that the Hulk, She-Hulk, and similar, are automatically versatile spellcasters because of their partially magic natures, despite that they have never remotely displayed such abilities. It is definitely NOT the same as Naruto, which only has a single writer deciding its system. 🙏
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The magic page has source of many different places from comics to handbooks so I think it's pretty coherent at least for a lot of the powers there.
 
My apologies, but that doesn't matter. We still cannot list lots of powers that have never been demonstrated or implied solely based on our own headcanons. 🙏
 
Marvel is no different from many other verses that have Energy Systerms that have concept hax as an innate power despite it not being shown in every single usage.

Time Power from DBH, Magic from God of War, Light and Darkness from Kingdom Hearts, the list goes on
 
Antvasima said:
My apologies, but that doesn't matter. We still cannot list lots of powers that have never been demonstrated or implied solely based on our own headcanons. 🙏
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vsbattles.com

"Let's Talk About Magic"-Part 2: Magic P&A/Potency Revision & Explanation Page

"The language of the Mystic Arts is as old as civilization. The sorcerers of antiquity called the use of this language 'spells,' but if that word offends your modern sensibilities, you can call it a program; the source code that shapes reality. We harness energy drawn from other dimensions of...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com

Please read this.
 
Antvasima said:
It is absolutely unacceptable amounts of extremely unreliable exaggerations that greatly harm the quality and reputation of our wiki as a whole. 🙏
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No offense but, opposite is actually more harmful. Giving Juggs basic magical aura the default abilities seems more safer for site's credibility. Or it will look like downplay for no reason.
As an example, It's like giving "Extreme Heat and Light and Radiation" to users who Sun power, ya know. Those basic abilities come part and parcel with Sun.
 
I do not have limitless amounts of time and energy available, but, to avoid misunderstandings, I would appreciate a summary of what kind abilities that any characters who are mystically empowered are assumed to automatically have here.

Are characters who have strictly been portrayed as physically empowered, although recurrently in physics-defying ways such as punching through time or similar, assumed to somehow automatically have access to a wide variety of spellcasting abilities that they have never demonstrated, or just generally physics-violating physical powers, yes or no? Thanks in advance for your cooperation. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
My apologies, but that doesn't matter.
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Let's hope Ant doesn't pull a dictator move like he did with Malekith's page and delete the entire magic page just because he doesn't like it (he most likely will).

Antvasima said:
automatically versatile spellcasters because of their partially magic natures
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Ant, now I know you're NOT reading any comments but yours. I literally explained to you that basic magic usage doesn't come from versatile spellcasters, they come to unskilled people who's able to manipulate a form of magic to their most basic level. If you ACTUALLY READ the page (or any comic past 2010s), you would actually understand what the page offers. All you see is a big list of powers and get scared.

Antvasima said:
My apologies, but that doesn't matter. We still cannot list lots of powers that have never been demonstrated or implied solely based on our own headcanons. 🙏
Click to expand...
Just because Juggernaut manipulates magic, doesn't mean he's going to do all the list offers. It's not something even Strange himself does every single issue. Just because he can, doesn't mean he will (and he wouldn't even be able to since all that is magical about him is his POWER SOURCE and SHIELD), it's all about in-character strategies.

Honestly, it's extremely disingenuous to hold this just because this one character doesn't show using the entire magic spell list, all verse-specific pages have characters who haven't used all skills shown but still have access, it comes with these pages' territories, this won't automatically upgrade Juggernaut to the strongest magical caster in the verse.

I swear, it's like talking to a brick wall.
 
Tomfer said:
Let's hope Ant doesn't pull a dictator move like he did with Malekith's page and delete the entire magic page just because he doesn't like it (he most likely will).
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No I definitely won't. Stop being aggressive and using extreme hyperbole.
Tomfer said:
Ant, now I know you're NOT reading any comments but yours. I literally explained to you that basic magic usage doesn't come from versatile spellcasters, they come to unskilled people who's able to manipulate a form of magic to their most basic level. If you ACTUALLY READ the page (or any comic past 2010s), you would actually understand what the page offers. All you see is a big list of powers and get scared.
Click to expand...
The point is that Juggernaut, Hulk, She-Hulk, etc. are currently not able to use spells at all, and I asked a simple question to clarify if that is the current intention with those pages. There is no need to start levelling aggressive accusations. I am just trying to do my job of ensuring that our wiki is reliable and doesn't use extreme headcanon. That is all.
Tomfer said:
Just because Juggernaut manipulates magic, doesn't mean he's going to do all the list offers. It's not something even Strange himself does every single issue. Just because he can, doesn't mean he will (and he wouldn't even be able to since all that is magical about him is his POWER SOURCE and SHIELD), it's all about in-character strategies.

Honestly, it's extremely disingenuous to hold this just because this one character doesn't show using the entire magic spell list, all verse-specific pages have characters who haven't used all skills shown but still have access, it comes with these pages' territories, this won't automatically upgrade Juggernaut to the strongest magical caster in the verse.
Click to expand...
Again, if Juggernaut, Hulk, and She-Hulk consistently haven't displayed any spellcasting whatsoever, we shouldn't list such powers for them, just like we shouldn't for any other verses. This is a perfectly reasonable sentiment.
Tomfer said:
I swear, it's like talking to a brick wall.
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I am trying to get clarifications here, due to limited available time and a massive amount of tasks to handle, but if you or others refuse to cooperate and begin throwing insults and accusations at me instead, it is hard to progress anywhere. 🙏
 
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Antvasima said:
No I definitely won't. Stop being aggressive and using extreme hyperbole.

The point is that Juggernaut, Hulk, She-Hulk, etc. are currently not able to use spells at all, and I asked a simple question to clarify if that is the current intention with those pages. There is no need to start levelling aggressive accusations. I am just trying to do my job of ensuring that our wiki is reliable and doesn't use extreme headcanon. That is all.

Again, if Juggernaut, Hulk, and She-Hulk consistently haven't displayed any spellcasting whatsoever, we shouldn't tlist such powers for them, just like we shouldn't for any other verses. This is a perfectly reasonable sentiment.

I am trying to get clarifications here, due to limited available time and a massive amount of tasks to handle, but if you or others refuse to cooperate and begin throwing insults and accusations at me instead, it is hard to progress anywhere. 🙏
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Hence why they only have BASIC magic. If they could cast spells they'd be low-tier sorcerers, but they only have raw innate magic.

Please read the magic page.
 
Antvasima said:
The point is that Juggernaut, Hulk, She-Hulk, etc. are currently not able to use spells at all, and I asked a simple question to clarify if that is the current intention with those pages.
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That page deals with nature of magic. Not spell casting.
Antvasima said:
Again, if Juggernaut, Hulk, and She-Hulk consistently haven't displayed any spellcasting whatsoever, we shouldn't tlist such powers for them, just like we shouldn't for any other verses. This is a perfectly reasonable sentiment.
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Magic =/= Spell Casting. Those are properties of magic, which happen to be hax/resistance. Spell Casting is skill/technique.
 
Okay. My concern was that they had been or would be given spellcasting abilities purely based on headcanon, due to a previous response here regarding their new automatic powers. If that is not the case, I likely don't have a problem here. 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
Okay. My concern was that they had been or would be given spellcasting abilities purely based on headcanon, due to a previous response here regarding their new automatic powers. If that is not the case, I likely don't have a problem here. 🙏
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Of course not. Those who only have basic magic can only use its innate powers and have no access to spells
 
Okay then. If somebody had just told me that from the start instead of being aggressive, there wouldn't have been a problem here. 🙏
 
Well, it doesn't seem to have been stated sufficiently clearly in that case, or maybe I just forgot due to jumping between many different tasks? 🙏
 
Antvasima said:
If somebody had just told me that from the start
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Tomfer said:
It's clear as day that Jugger isn't a skilled spellcaster, but basic magic isn't for skilled magicians but just people who can manipulate magic itself in any form. Actual mages are listed as low sorcerers and above.
Click to expand...
Tomfer said:
Juggernaut isn't getting any magical beam that alters the plot of any fight or something similar to that. It's just his source of power (and his shield) that is magical in nature, it's basic magic through and through.
Click to expand...
Tomfer said:
I literally explained to you that basic magic usage doesn't come from versatile spellcasters, they come to unskilled people who's able to manipulate a form of magic to their most basic level.
Click to expand...
If you continue to ignore someone's arguments, and keep saying they're wrong, it's bound to cause aggression. Keep that in mind.
 
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