• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

All Purpose Dragon Ball Thread

noninho said:
Yeah, but this generates multipliers that we don't know
Like, by how much is Vegito > SSJ3 (i imagine you're talking about P-diffusion) Goku? And by how much is SSG > SSJ3 Vegito?


To make things better and easier: hand me an approved source stating something close enough to a multiplier of SSG? Or are you trying to say that SSG ~ Therorical SS3 Vegito > 400x > SS3 Goku, therefore he's 160,000 Base?
Either way, a scan would be very nice
Click to expand...
VjPBdFU.jpg

Here's the scan for Base Vegito > SSJ3.

dragon-ball-super-scaling-is-awful-v0-1r0i9hd853wf1.jpg

Even if you don't want to buy God > SSJ3 Vegito, it should still be above SSJ Vegito.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
How in God's name is "For the story immediately following the "God of Destruction Beerus Arc," read the anime comic Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection "F"!" an insufficient statement? A statement found in a review of the "chronological order of the story"?
Click to expand...
Damage made a CRT to get rid of it. It honestly needs to be added back since its complete nonsense. The main point is the use of the "Saiyan Beyond God" statement. But upon further inspection, it's completely misunderstood to mean something it doesn't, which is a problem. Goku can still turn into a Super Saiyan even in the ROF movie, which is canon. "Gaining access to God-like power in their normal forms" means they have just adapted to the level of a Super Saiyan God so they just ARE that powerful. In that same movie, Goku turns into a Super Saiyan. He can't just access SBG as if it's some separate form. And honestly, Saiyan Beyond God comes from a heroes card game which actually refers to Super Saiyan Blue.
kjkYQkH.png
 
Hey just started a watch through og the super dub and

It implies the series starts months after the wish to make people forget about buu? Dosen't the anime take place like, 3 years after that or something?
 
Hey just hit me there's a scene an episode 10 of super with a blast attack from Goku that causes the ocean water to rise all the way from the bottom could this be used for lifting strength feats?
 
It occurs to me, (assuming you accept Damia as part of the anime canon of course)

That the SSG ritual is likely some unique demon kind magic the sayains still have left over, if someone as strong as moro can just exist from the demon relam without a day of training, then it makes sense that demon magic could be behind the super power of the SS god.
 
You know if you think about it resurrection of F is kind of in an orphaned timeline, the original Battle of God's exists in the toei timeline with GT, where as Res of F has no mention of such a thing. Meanwhile super has it's own interpretation of such events. Little sad really
 
Roun12 said:
Even if you don't want to buy God > SSJ3 Vegito, it should still be above SSJ Vegito.
Click to expand...
Following the line that SSG is qualitatively superior to anything Z did, which the manga does, yeah, that's true

but you're putting more gaps without we being able to quantify it, how do I put it there?
 
noninho said:
Aight, 3rd time's the charm.



Goku in his Base GT should be 1.6x stronger than Moro Arc pUI (20,000x 3 Universes vs 12,500x 3 universes) and should be around 1 tier above in LS (Though comparing base x base is Class P vs G, pUI should be giving multipliers to make this less huge of a difference), but pUI should have enough haxes to compensate for any diff, such as Deconstruction outside of Hakai, creating a f***ing megazord, auto-actions and development, or the fact that Goku has unsenseable god ki

It is quite impressive that any little thing you add for GT's side gets him to simply nuke Manga's out of existence. From what i understood, if i allow tUI vs SS1 or Rildo Fight's base, the gap's more than 6x for GT and Manga's just getting more haxes that GT possibly can deal with (Thank god Manga doesn't spam Hakai), including put f***ing SSB in the mix with UI, which if multiplied his powers, would finally allow me to put SS4 in the game.
Someone please tell me if tUI+SSB is around 50x stronger than tUI, cuz then we'd be able to 100% secure this ain't a mismatch, i think

Anything wrong with the chain? Still evaluating if this is a mismatch or not
Click to expand...
'k, so i'll leave things like this for now because for any change to be applied here, i'd need proper multipliers
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Have to wonder why you'd take "many times" default multiplier as a x4 when DB itself has used it to mean a x2 one.
Click to expand...
Firstly, the Super Holy Water granting a boost of "many times" is word of mouth. The excerpt from Daizenshuu 2 using nanbai is in reference to said word of mouth. Secondly, the excerpt from Daizenshuu 7 uses sūbai, or "several times", with several having a common baseline definition of "more than two". Thirdly, the only official databook to explicitly confirm a two-fold multiplier is the Super Exciting Guide.

Scrolling through Herms's Strength Checker, I can see the phrase "many times" being used to describe the effect of the Kaio-ken, which is a two-fold increase; and the gap between King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr.—presumably similar to the gap between a 15 y.o. Goku and an 18 y.o. Goku, which is nearly two-times. Or could be even more than "something as simple as a doubling or tripling". However, Nail also uses the phrase when describing the effect of Namekian Fusion, which is currently accepted as a five-times multiplier through El Manga Legendario; and Future Trunks uses the phrase when describing the gravity inside of the Room of Spirit and Time, which is ten-times that of Earth's. Gotenks even claims he circled the Earth "several times", which was at least five.

Moreover, Volume 'F' says Frieza's power increases by "many times" upon transforming, and the Extreme Battle Collection says Second Form Frieza's Battle Power was "more than double" that of his First Form. DRAGON BALL LANDMARK says Zarbon grew "several times" stronger and faster, but El Manga Legendario says Vegeta "failed to calculate [his] increase in strength".

Also, I feel like they'd specify whether or not a given multiplier was, say, two-times or ten-times rather than simply saying "many times" if the intention was for the multiplier to have a specific, fixed value. They do it often.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
DRAGON BALL LANDMARK says Zarbon grew "several times" stronger and faster, but El Manga Legendario says Vegeta "failed to calculate [his] increase in strength".
Click to expand...
This is probably the lowest increase considering that Monster Zarbon got done in by a Vegeta with a PL of 30,000, a.k.a. below Saiyan Saga Kaioken x4 Goku's 32,000.
And since his base had a PL of 23,000, the increase was what, x1.6 at best?

Ignoring that though, fact both Kaioken and Second Form Frieza fall under this "many times" boost lends more credence to treating it as a x2 multiplier being the safest route.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
kinda feels like you ignored all of it
Click to expand...
I mean, when a boost has been shown to vary between 2-10, has been used as 2 three times while 10 has only been used once, and especially since a x2 increase in DB has turned stomps around, we probably should go with 2. VSBW™ Powerscaling is sorta inherently built on going with the lowest interpretation plausible unless a higher one is proven.
 
Last edited:
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Powerscaling is sorta inherently built on going with the lowest interpretation plausible unless a higher one is proven.
Click to expand...
I disagree whole heartily with that statment it's only a thing on this wiki and really not even all of it. It's hardly a universeal principle and shouldn't be referred to as such
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
I mean, when a boost has been shown to vary between 2-10, has been used as 2 three times while 10 has only been used once, and especially since a x2 increase in DB has turned stomps around, we probably should go with 2. VSBW™ Powerscaling is sorta inherently built on going with the lowest interpretation plausible unless a higher one is proven.
Click to expand...
If the phrase has been used for different multiplications for several instances I don’t see why we have to assume the lower end of those instances have to be the norm, and not just conservatively 4x like how the phrase is normally.

It just seems like an association fallacy, saying that the instances where “many times” was used for some 2x boosts means that every other “many times” boosts, different from past ones, should also be 2x, when nothing suggests that
 
Ednaxel2 said:
If the phrase has been used for different multiplications for several instances I don’t see why we have to assume the lower end of those instances have to be the norm, and not just conservatively 4x like how the phrase is normally.

It just seems like an association fallacy, saying that the instances where “many times” was used for some 2x boosts means that every other “many times” boosts, different from past ones, should also be 2x, when nothing suggests that
Click to expand...
Only reason we even typically go with x3 for several or x4 for many and not like x5 is cause they are the absolute lowest interpretation, in DB that isn't the case obviously.

Also pushing “many times” to a fixed x4 just arbitrarily inflates the values, like there’s no real reason Third Form Frieza has to be four times stronger than his Second Form instead of just twice as strong, Piccolo's getting stomped either way. Same deal with Semi-Perfect Cell and so on.
 
Eden_Warlock99 said:
Only reason we even typically go with x3 for several or x4 for many and not like x5 is cause they are the absolute lowest interpretation, in DB that isn't the case obviously.

Also pushing “many times” to a fixed x4 just arbitrarily inflates the values, like there’s no real reason Third Form Frieza has to be four times stronger than his Second Form instead of just twice as strong, Piccolo's getting stomped either way. Same deal with Semi-Perfect Cell and so on.
Click to expand...
Man that seems like such bull. Your effectivly saying because a word was mis used a few times we should go with the mis use instead of the proper use effectivly punishing the series for poor grammar.
 
Darkmon_cns said:
Man that seems like such bull. Your effectivly saying because a word was mis used a few times we should go with the mis use instead of the proper use effectivly punishing the series for poor grammar.
Click to expand...
It's not really misused per say. More than 2x doesn't mean at least 3. He could have gotten a 2.5 or 2.25x boost
It's like saying Saiyan Saga Goku having a PL of "over 8000" means he must be 9000, when that's not really the case.
 
noninho said:
Aight, 3rd time's the charm.



Goku in his Base GT should be 1.6x stronger than Moro Arc pUI (20,000x 3 Universes vs 12,500x 3 universes) and should be around 1 tier above in LS (Though comparing base x base is Class P vs G, pUI should be giving multipliers to make this less huge of a difference), but pUI should have enough haxes to compensate for any diff, such as Deconstruction outside of Hakai, creating a f***ing megazord, auto-actions and development, or the fact that Goku has unsenseable god ki

It is quite impressive that any little thing you add for GT's side gets him to simply nuke Manga's out of existence. From what i understood, if i allow tUI vs SS1 or Rildo Fight's base, the gap's more than 6x for GT and Manga's just getting more haxes that GT possibly can deal with (Thank god Manga doesn't spam Hakai), including put f***ing SSB in the mix with UI, which if multiplied his powers, would finally allow me to put SS4 in the game.
Someone please tell me if tUI+SSB is around 50x stronger than tUI, cuz then we'd be able to 100% secure this ain't a mismatch, i think

Anything wrong with the chain? Still evaluating if this is a mismatch or not
Click to expand...
I'll ask one last time: anything to prostest with proper multipliers??
If not, i'll take a while to evaluate if it's a mismatch or not due to PnA sections
 
noninho said:
i'll take a while to evaluate if it's a mismatch or not due to PnA sections
Click to expand...
Alright, so:

-1.6x gap in AP/SS/Durability is really the fairest (Speed is equal, no worries here)
-The gap in LS should be around 1.5 tiers, because both scale a bizillion times the indicated feats who are 2 tiers apart, with Manga having more transformations to ease things out a little
-Stamina should be for GT's side also, since UI is only for a limited period and GT'll be very likely to outlast it. Speaking of limited time, we'll need a format that takes it into consideration, or else it's very likely a GT win in a few minutes
-GT outsmarts quite heavily but UI's adaptating is apparently able to circumvent it from my try to read it and from ChatGPT's (i have no friends and idk who to ask about it. a microbe's opinion would make me disregard AI's, i'll only take it until someone talks about it, but i don't think anyone will, so let's leave it at that)

What about the powers?

Seems like what could be ending Manga is more used by GT (like Dragon Fist, Danmaku) , then Manga's using Hakai, deconstruction (which this pUI gets without Hakai) and etc. And there's also the Positive Energy stuff which i don't know if it's in every attack or something like it, but could be problematic for Manga if any iteration of it touched him
TLDR: Seems to be a mismatch and doesn't compensate to create a thread about the matter. This changes figures very quickly if we see a multiplier for SSG like the Super Anime has, but apparently is only an Anime thing so sadly, that's the final result from all i could tell

edit: i forgot to mention that now my purpose is now complete and i've just proven that GT is the superior Goku lol
 
Last edited:
vsbattles.com

Kienzan's Durability Negation?

Kienzan (気円斬), Krillin’s signature technique, is consistently depicted as an energy-based attack capable of instantly cutting through its target, being described as able to cut through “anything” and “everything”, independent of the user’s Battle Power. Unlike conventional energy attacks that...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Our man @Ednaxel2 confirmed for me that the multiplier "400x SSJ3" is usable for SSG in both manga and anime, and as he's an undeniably reliable source, here i go again at it!

Buuhan's 2-C feat > [2x gap > Ultimate Gohan ~ Inside Buu Goku < 100x gap]* < Outside of Buu Goku < 400x gap < GT Base Goku < 50x gap < SS1 < stomp gap < Rildo Fight Base Goku < 400x gap < SS3

*This quite weird wording is because UGohan has 50% of Buuhan's AP, which the Inside Buu Goku is scaling to since he fought a clone of UGohan. This means that Outside of Buu Goku is 50x the 2-C feat

Typically in or Versus Threads, we call 7x a one-shot gap, but 7x is an ugly number, so let's call each stomp gap a 5x diff, respectable and not far from the truth
Click to expand...
Super Manga SSG 2-C feat ~ Base ToP Arc Goku < 160.000x gap < SSG < 50x gap < Blue ~ [Beerus ~ Belmod]** < 2x gap* < Power-Stressed Form ~ UISign/pUI ~ Jiren < stomp gap < Moro Arc UISign Goku < stomp gap < 7-3 Moro < stomp gap < pUI

*-Unspecified "Kaioken" used, assuming 2x since this is the most basic Kaioken upgrade and only the anime states Goku using SSB Kaioken 10x and others

**-Vegito Blue is stated to be in Beerus level, or higher according to Shin, and as a complete SSB in the Black Saga, Goku could already hurt Fusion Zamasu like Vegito did, so since he got stronger by the time of ToP and since "Kaioken" Blue/UI are as strong as Jiren, who's stated by Toppo to be stronger than Belmod, an equal to Beerus, seems fitting to index stuff like this

Typically in or Versus Threads, we call 7x a one-shot gap, but 7x is an ugly number, so let's call each stomp gap a 5x diff, respectable and not far from the truth
Click to expand...
Cool fact: now with the SSG multiplier, we have made them exactly equals at 2.000.000.000x 2-C (considering Moro arc pUI vs SS3), **** yeah! Now, with the speed equal (only possible way to make this fair lol) the only difference is the LS gap, should be like 1.5 tiers due to both being a bizillion times the feats which had a 2 tier gap.

Apparently tUI > UI+transformations, so that's not an advantage, and every other thing presented has GT dealing with them with ease. Also, both transformations are quite heavy staminawise, but GT has his tail, which helps refining the ki and stamina using, while tUI is remarkably short in time usage, and this can be very problematic for Manga. Hakai seems to not be instant or quick, and stuff like the megazord can get Manga's ass Super Dragon Fisted (i have not intended for this pun, but i'm keeping it lmfao), so tUI has a short period of time to outskill GT or else he's cooked

Opinions? Worthy of creating a match?
 
noninho said:
Our man @Ednaxel2 confirmed for me that the multiplier "400x SSJ3" is usable for SSG in both manga and anime, and as he's an undeniably reliable source, here i go again at it!



Cool fact: now with the SSG multiplier, we have made them exactly equals at 2.000.000.000x 2-C (considering Moro arc pUI vs SS3), **** yeah! Now, with the speed equal (only possible way to make this fair lol) the only difference is the LS gap, should be like 1.5 tiers due to both being a bizillion times the feats which had a 2 tier gap.

Apparently tUI > UI+transformations, so that's not an advantage, and every other thing presented has GT dealing with them with ease. Also, both transformations are quite heavy staminawise, but GT has his tail, which helps refining the ki and stamina using, while tUI is remarkably short in time usage, and this can be very problematic for Manga. Hakai seems to not be instant or quick, and stuff like the megazord can get Manga's ass Super Dragon Fisted (i have not intended for this pun, but i'm keeping it lmfao), so tUI has a short period of time to outskill GT or else he's cooked

Opinions? Worthy of creating a match?
Click to expand...
If speed is equal won't UI's auto defense make it so SS4 can't lay a hand on him?
 
Darkmon_cns said:
If speed is equal won't UI's auto defense make it so SS4 can't lay a hand on him?
Click to expand...
Speed was more or less equal and every enemy could hit Goku more than once
And they're both adapting and growing while the battle is going on
And if speed isn't equal, GT has infinite speed so...
 
noninho said:
Speed was more or less equal and every enemy could hit Goku more than once
And they're both adapting and growing while the battle is going on
And if speed isn't equal, GT has infinite speed so...
Click to expand...
One day super will get infinite speed, one day
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Alternate Universe: Haxgon Ball Z
Replies
0
Views
405
ALEPHGOAT
Killerdrone123
  • Locked
Quick GT Goku addition
Replies
24
Views
3K
Vietthai96
Vietthai96
FoxySonicMaster108
Dragon Ball Z: Anime and Movies being one thing?
Replies
2
Views
940
JustANormalPerson01
JustANormalPerson01
The_Impress
Our Own Dragon Ball Saga (Round 1): Goku vs. Stegron (Marvel) (7-0-0; Grace and Ended)
Replies
25
Views
3K
The_Impress
The_Impress
M3X_2.0
  • Locked
Dragon Ball Z Multiplier Removal
2 3 4
Replies
144
Views
22K
Qawsedf234
Qawsedf234
Back
Top