Mori Dan upgrade - I don't know what I'm doing edition

[Ghostimuscrime]

brother chill it's not that deep

we should all take a step back and try to calmly respond/refute everything instead of being aggressive, all it does is make staff lean away from giving evaluation due to having to do the emotional labor of reading two people bickering, evaluating and stopping fights, if it gets messy enough it can lead to the thread just being forced to be remade and starting over from scratch

 

[Black-san112]

guys can we all try to stop this and focus on just getting summaries for the staff whenever they drop by instead of bickering and flodding the thread even more then it already is

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

1-A is fine by me, I don't know why 1-A is that complicated when most light novel fictions get it through viewing their universe like a TV where they physically can't interact with it directly since it's fiction to them. I feel like this is the most obvious case of 1-A if anything but that's just my opinion on it imo, I agree though.

Examples?

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

brother chill it's not that deep

we should all take a step back and try to calmly respond/refute everything instead of being aggressive, all it does is make staff lean away from giving evaluation due to having to do the emotional labor of reading two people bickering, evaluating and stopping fights, if it gets messy enough it can lead to the thread just being forced to be remade and starting over from scratch

Can you stop acting like I’m furious just because I called my opponent “pedantic”?

Seriously, it’s extremely annoying. Just stop. You’re ironically filling the thread with useless messages.

No one here is fighting. Using a bit of irony in a reply isn’t something that’s banned in the rules.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I meaaaaaan you kinda called him insufferable twice and shut down Kay's advice because they're not a thread moderator, I'm not tryna vilify you but I think both of you might benefit from a more clear headed discussion

 

[Godernet]

Tier 1 threads are complicated enough as it is without needless bickering and microaggressions.

So let's stop any and all topics that aren't important to the CRT.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

Yeah, put me as disagreeing with 1-A. Since:

1) "Physical" is an extremely vague and obscure term even in IRL contexts so that you can't extract any definite meaning out of this singular statement. Could as well just be referring to, e.g., corporeity. And FWIW noting down how the exact korean words used in relation to the Buddha realm mean "everything in the strictest sense" doesn't help much, since if you were actually committed to saying that the Buddha realm transcends "everything in the strictest sense" then you'd have to be arguing for Tier 0, not 1-A.

2) Is this actually him holding the setting as an object in his hands? Or is it some sort of crystal orb? The scene itself isn't terribly clear. And even if it was, I don't think that nets anything other than Tier 2, at face value. (Nothing else happens if you combine that with the "unphysical" statements, either, since displaying superiority over a spacetime continuum doesn't help pin down the otherwise ambiguous term). And I don't think them using a word referring to fate/cause-effect here helps, either. That just tell us that he's not bound by a deterministic setting, or, in GoH's case, by a system of karma, I guess.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Yeah, put me as disagreeing with 1-A. Since:

1) "Physical" is an extremely vague and obscure term even in IRL contexts so that you can't extract any definite meaning out of this singular statement. Could as well just be referring to, e.g., corporeity.

That is true but like I pointed out, it can't really be talking about standard incorporeality.
We see characters that are incorporeal existing purely as souls, minds, etc, still be confined within the physical world.

Especially with the context of the tablets. The tablets are said to be the spacetime of the verse which contains everyone and everything, and Buddhas visibly exist outside of it.

And FWIW noting down how the exact korean words used in relation to the Buddha realm mean "everything in the strictest sense" doesn't help much, since if you were actually committed to saying that the Buddha realm transcends "everything in the strictest sense" then you'd have to be arguing for Tier 0, not 1-A.

I don’t know anything about tier 0 which is why I'm not arguing towards it. I'm only addressing what I'm aware of within the context which we have.

The statements here referring to all of existence in the context of space-time and something beyond even "all universes"

2) Is this actually him holding the setting as an object in his hands?

Yes.

And even if it was, I don't think that nets anything other than Tier 2, at face value. (Nothing else happens if you combine that with the "unphysical" statements, either, since displaying superiority over a spacetime continuum doesn't help pin down the otherwise ambiguous term).

Does visibly existing beyond all of spacetime not clear up what being free from physical bondage means? I feel like that's a pretty clear connection there.

And I don't think them using a word referring to fate/cause-effect here helps, either. That just tell us that he's not bound by a deterministic setting, or, in GoH's case, by a system of karma, I guess.

What do you think is the better interpretation then?

What would the "all of existence" part in "all universes and all of existence" refer to when stated from the perspective of a being which exists beyond spacetime? What "everything" could be more than all universes but less than all of space and time?

Because I don’t really see any better interpretation. To me it seems that the author is trying to describe a Buddha as someone completely transcending the everything even wording specifically so we know it's not just referring about universes

 

[Voidnether]

Examples?

Villainess Level 99, Isekai at Peace, A Wild Last Boss Appeared, I can get the later two though

Ultima agreed with like 1-A in here

Yumiella Sad Low 1-C downgrade + Cosmology Upgrade 1-A

OP notes: Please Read it carefully as it may be confusing for none readers and I'm not proficient in English or read the cosmology blog first, it's not that long Intro: Cosmology is confirmed to have R>F transcendence For a Higher World. thus making them low 1-C for having an ontological...

vsbattles.com

This one confirmed what I said
(refer to the QnA in the post above)

Isekai at Peace Discussion Thread

Wtf shallow vernal upscales off of ruphas and alovenus??? I did not know they had a crossover all 3 should just kiss or something at this point given how many times they fight each other on Mondays its like 3 guys fighting over a "piece of paper" that is "all of reality' and the moment they...

vsbattles.com

This is when I translated the evidence for like 1-A in AWLBA, you get the point

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Could someone help clarify what fate or destiny of the world mean here 🙏 なんとなくアウラロッドも察したのだろう。メガトモ候補が自分とは決定的に違う生き物だと。でも、ミトメタクナァイ！！ 「め、女神だって幸せを願っていいはずです！」 『しかり。女神の幸せとは永久とわに己が世界を見守ること。そのために必要なことを、世界の命運が尽きるその時まで行うこと。そうでございましょう？』 And what does "world" refer to here...

vsbattles.com

 

[Enter_Bluey]

Awlba did not get 1A for that in its initial thread. That was added as supporting evidence later. The other r>f evidences wasn't even about tvs?

Iap  just had that statement added as a neat detail. It wasn't any main reason for its tier upgrades..

 

[Voidnether]

Awlba did not get 1A for that in its initial thread. That was added as supporting evidence later. The other r>f evidences wasn't even about tvs?

Iap  just had that statement added as a neat detail. It wasn't any main reason for its tier upgrades..

You know that they also could be used as the main evidence, yes? It's literally that straightforward, when Ruphas ascended as a "Goddess" she's literally disconnected from the universe AWLBA is set on (Low 2-C), just like the rest of the Goddess that are native to the Endpoint, that's why it's 1-A, the whole TV stuff is meant to be an analogy that they view it as literal fiction, that's why it's 1-A, and if you start talking it's because of Endpoint itself as a structure, you know Endpoint's justification is also through this on the blog

This is literally what Endpoint is

Type 3: Characters who exceed dimensionality through a qualitative superiority over lesser things, which is to say: Ontologically surpassing all the contents of a lower reality, and being above their physical composition and differentiation. Characters of this nature don't simply lack all physicality and composition (As in Type 1), but surpass it altogether, being of a wholly superior nature that is not reachable by lower states of existence. But as stated at the beginning of the page, these beings can still operate on a higher notion of dimensionality that is fundamental to their own nature and reality.

Also Yumiella got 1-A off because the Yumiella before being reincarnated viewed her world (that she reincarnated into) as literal fiction anyway, genuinely she's just like a regular human in Tokyo, it's the most blatant case of R>F. You don't have to know the entire series for this, just watch episode 1 or the first chapter, like I'm sorry but this is the most blatant, evidence of R>F and it would be gaslighting imo for it to be the otherwise because would we just scrap R>F by this point if it's not?

I lowkey don't mean to derail, but yeah you should get my point at this point

 

[Enter_Bluey]

You know that they also could be used as the main evidence, yes? It's literally that straightforward, when Ruphas ascended as a "Goddess" she's literally disconnected from the universe AWLBA is set on (Low 2-C), just like the rest of the Goddess that are native to the Endpoint, that's why it's 1-A, the whole TV stuff is meant to be an analogy that they view it as literal fiction, that's why it's 1-A

Also Yumiella got 1-A off because the Yumiella before being reincarnated viewed her world (that she reincarnated into) as literal fiction anyway, genuinely she's just like a regular human in Tokyo, it's the most blatant case of R>F. You don't have to know the entire series for this, just watch episode 1 or the first chapter, like

I'm sorry but this is the most blatant, evidence of R>F and it would be gaslighting imo for it to be the otherwise because would we just scrap R>F by this point if it's not?

I lowkey don't mean to derail, but yeah you should get my point at this point

I'm only pointing that out cause these are being used as points on light novels using these feats for being upgraded(for the two I mentioned). But it wasn't the reason why they were upgraded, not exactly the same as this situation. So I don't feel they're the best examples for what is trying to be said here. Even if you could argue it possible.

Yumiella was a quick and obvious upgrade here though with such statements so

 

[Voidnether]

I'm only pointing that out cause these are being used as points on light novels using these feats for being upgraded(for the two I mentioned). But it wasn't the reason why they were upgraded, not exactly the same as this situation. So I don't feel they're the best examples for what is trying to be said here. Even if you could argue it possible.

Yumiella was a quick and obvious upgrade here though with such statements so

I feel like it's through R>F (the tv analogy) and them qualifying for BDE3 (endpoint itself as a whole that surpasses physicality) because I cannot think of anything that would get it to 1-A if it's not because of this imo so like yeah you have that lol

 

[Vietthai96]

Villainess Level 99, Isekai at Peace, A Wild Last Boss Appeared

From what i saw, they have very literal and direct envidence for R > F Transcendence. I don't think it have anything to do with this GoH thread where David is arguing that Mori is 1-A due to shredded his physical existence and ascended to be an abstract being (or whatever non-physical it is)

Anyway, i'm waiting for summerise, but generally speaking i'm in agreement with Ultima. Simply shredding your physical body and ascend to be a non-physical being outside and beyond physical space-time hardly mean 1-A, of course it could help but should not be the main evidence. If this is 1-A then by this very same logic, anything that is non-physical (NEP, AE1, BDE1) can get 1-A via beyond physical reality

I don’t know anything about tier 0 which is why I'm not arguing towards it. I'm only addressing what I'm aware of within the context which we have.

The statements here referring to all of existence in the context of space-time and something beyond even "all universes"

No, what Ultima meant is that if you are using Buddhism as example, then either it is tier 0 or nothing. You can't really say this verse taking inspiration from Buddhism but is just 1-A. This is pretty much similar to JJK situation before where Dr.whitee using Buddhism as example to argue the verse have Nonduality and Void hax but not tier

Is this actually him holding the setting as an object in his hands

From the profile, each tablet is a space-time. Since it is stated like this in the scan



The point where space-time overslaps

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Villainess Level 99, Isekai at Peace, A Wild Last Boss Appeared, I can get the later two though

Ultima agreed with like 1-A in here

Yumiella Sad Low 1-C downgrade + Cosmology Upgrade 1-A

OP notes: Please Read it carefully as it may be confusing for none readers and I'm not proficient in English or read the cosmology blog first, it's not that long Intro: Cosmology is confirmed to have R>F transcendence For a Higher World. thus making them low 1-C for having an ontological...

vsbattles.com

This one confirmed what I said
(refer to the QnA in the post above)

Isekai at Peace Discussion Thread

Wtf shallow vernal upscales off of ruphas and alovenus??? I did not know they had a crossover all 3 should just kiss or something at this point given how many times they fight each other on Mondays its like 3 guys fighting over a "piece of paper" that is "all of reality' and the moment they...

vsbattles.com

This is when I translated the evidence for like 1-A in AWLBA, you get the point

Official Translation Requests Thread (New forum)

Could someone help clarify what fate or destiny of the world mean here 🙏 なんとなくアウラロッドも察したのだろう。メガトモ候補が自分とは決定的に違う生き物だと。でも、ミトメタクナァイ！！ 「め、女神だって幸せを願っていいはずです！」 『しかり。女神の幸せとは永久とわに己が世界を見守ること。そのために必要なことを、世界の命運が尽きるその時まで行うこと。そうでございましょう？』 And what does "world" refer to here...

vsbattles.com

Just as I expected. Things with entirely different contexts (which are rather quite blatant) being used to go "well this thing does X so why cant my series get it" while the series is not at all blatant nor does it even compare to the others.

 

[Voidnether]

Just as I expected. Things with entirely different contexts (which are rather quite blatant) being used to go "well this thing does X so why cant my series get it" while the series is not at all blatant nor does it even compare to the others.

You could have X verse that does X, and then another X verse that also does X but the latter is rejected because it's a widely hated fiction

Trust me, if AWLBA has the same popularity as a gacha game, it would be downgraded into oblivion from Endpoint being stated to be a Multiverse Type 4 (so no 1-A) and someone agenda posting that somehow makes Multiverse Type 4 untierable for even Low 1-A

I know how it works...

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

it would be downgraded into oblivion from Endpoint being stated to be a Multiverse Type 4 (so no 1-A) and someone agenda posting that somehow makes Multiverse Type 4 untierable for even Low 1-A

Untrue. AWLBA doesnt mention a type 4 multiverse. Also your concerns are unfounded here since GoH genuinely doesn't fit the burden of proof required for 1-A.

 

[ThyNotAskQuestions]

Hey, y'all, let's not use other series as a basis for an argument. Their cosmologies differ from GOH, which is why they meet the requirements for 1-A. For GOH, we're still trying to figure that out.

 

[Voidnether]

Untrue. AWLBA doesnt mention a type 4 multiverse. Also your concerns are unfounded here since GoH genuinely doesn't fit the burden of proof required for 1-A.

Endpoint. Alovenus has named this place, which exists outside the universe, as such.

It is the place of all endings and beginnings.

Every possible world and every possible time axis is connected to this place.

There, Alovenus, dressed up as Santa Claus, was enjoying Christmas in a good mood.

I've said it many times, but this person is the god of the Midgard. More precisely, she is the god of the Endpoint that encompasses every possible universe, dimension, and parallel world.

“Is that okay with you?”

A Wild Last Boss Appeared Cosmology

The new and improved rundown of the cosmology for A Wild Last Boss Appeared! This page aims to clearly explain the verse's cosmology structure. Sources will come straight from the light novel and the web novel. The entire universe is Alovenus's magic spell, composed of infinite mana Naturally...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I hope you didn't expect the verse to just namedrop Multiverse Type 4 like Instant Death that doesn't even have the characteristics whatsoever and just namedropped it

For GoH, honestly I'd argue the entire Mori being unbound by reality is a R>F difference because I do remember seeing that somewhere other than the supposed "BDE3" given Mori would probably treat the world as fiction anyway

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

A Wild Last Boss Appeared Cosmology

The new and improved rundown of the cosmology for A Wild Last Boss Appeared! This page aims to clearly explain the verse's cosmology structure. Sources will come straight from the light novel and the web novel. The entire universe is Alovenus's magic spell, composed of infinite mana Naturally...

vsbattles.fandom.com

I hope you didn't expect the verse to just namedrop Multiverse Type 4 like Instant Death that doesn't even have the characteristics whatsoever and just namedropped it

For GoH, honestly I'd argue the entire Mori being unbound by reality is a R>F difference because I do remember seeing that somewhere other than the supposed "BDE3" given Mori would probably treat the world as fiction anyway

and that's no where near a type 4 multiverse pack it up bro

This is starting to derail anyways so I'll stop it here.

 

[Antvasima]

Yeah, put me as disagreeing with 1-A. Since:

1) "Physical" is an extremely vague and obscure term even in IRL contexts so that you can't extract any definite meaning out of this singular statement. Could as well just be referring to, e.g., corporeity. And FWIW noting down how the exact korean words used in relation to the Buddha realm mean "everything in the strictest sense" doesn't help much, since if you were actually committed to saying that the Buddha realm transcends "everything in the strictest sense" then you'd have to be arguing for Tier 0, not 1-A.

2) Is this actually him holding the setting as an object in his hands? Or is it some sort of crystal orb? The scene itself isn't terribly clear. And even if it was, I don't think that nets anything other than Tier 2, at face value. (Nothing else happens if you combine that with the "unphysical" statements, either, since displaying superiority over a spacetime continuum doesn't help pin down the otherwise ambiguous term). And I don't think them using a word referring to fate/cause-effect here helps, either. That just tell us that he's not bound by a deterministic setting, or, in GoH's case, by a system of karma, I guess.

This seems to make sense to me.

 

[DavidTPPM]

No, what Ultima meant is that if you are using Buddhism as example, then either it is tier 0 or nothing. You can't really say this verse taking inspiration from Buddhism but is just 1-A. This is pretty much similar to JJK situation before where Dr.whitee using Buddhism as example to argue the verse have Nonduality and Void hax but not tier

I'm not using Buddhism I'm simply explaining the meaning of certain words.
My argument was never "in Buddhism this is 1-A". What in saying is that the specific terminology used originates from Buddhism which is why it has a deeper meaning and don't have a direct English version.

I'm basically just using a dictionary and explaining why these words have a meaning that wasn't accurately captured by the English translation (tho ngl with how bad Webtoon is at translating it would probably be bad even if the words were simple lol)

 

[Unqver]

@FinePoint you got ratio'ed.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Well, two admins disagreed with the thread. The OP should update the vote counts.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Well, two admins disagreed with the thread. The OP should update the vote counts.

Wanted to wait for further discussion since I'm still curious on their takes for what the alternative interpretation would be but sure.

(honestly I'm just lazy, took me 4 days to update the vote count last time )

 

[Unqver]

Well, two admins disagreed with the thread. The OP should update the vote counts.

Viethaii also disagreed

 

[AlternativePrinciple]

alternative interpretation would be but sure.

 

[Apex_Predator_GX]

Well, two admins disagreed with the thread. The OP should update the vote counts.

Your comment saves me time by not having to read so many pages.

 

[FinePoint]

@FinePoint you got ratio'ed.

Indeed. According to the rules of the internet, I must now cry myself to sleep because my opinion didn't end up being the popular one. I'll never recover.

I've historically found Ultima a bit too strict on the way fiction presents itself in relation to the exact way we define our tiers, rather than being more open to what might be more subtly intended and/or implied.

That is a fundamental difference between us, but not one I think makes either of us any less valid than the other. Believe it or not, there is room for disagreement on a website dedicated to debate.

Anyway, i'm waiting for summerise, but generally speaking i'm in agreement with Ultima. Simply shredding your physical body and ascend to be a non-physical being outside and beyond physical space-time hardly mean 1-A, of course it could help but should not be the main evidence. If this is 1-A then by this very same logic, anything that is non-physical (NEP, AE1, BDE1) can get 1-A via beyond physical reality

No, what Ultima meant is that if you are using Buddhism as example, then either it is tier 0 or nothing. You can't really say this verse taking inspiration from Buddhism but is just 1-A. This is pretty much similar to JJK situation before where Dr.whitee using Buddhism as example to argue the verse have Nonduality and Void hax but not tier

All that said, I'm not immune to changing my mind.

That there's a general lack of evidence is a valid point. I may have been a little too focused on it being 'possible' at first rather than 'most likely'.

So, to that point, I won't completely flip to denying 1-A, but I will concede a little and say I'd only support a "Possibly 1-A" now. It seems possible, maybe even intended to me, but indeed there's not a lot to solidify that.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Viethaii also disagreed

Yeah, you are correct. He should be added to the vote counts too.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Ye, I think I disagree with 1-A. The only thing that somewhat suggests the tier to me is Space-Time overlapping upon a point, but it doesn’t seem like it’s been properly qualified how exactly that functions and, other than that, I don’t think there’s much there that isn’t strictly reducible to Low 1-C or below.

 

[Thermor]

Bump.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bump.

This can be closed btw. I would love to see an alternate interpretation but I don't imagine I'm going to get it and I don't have the energy to engage with this goofy topic anymore

 

[Thermor]

This can be closed btw. I would love to see an alternate interpretation but I don't imagine I'm going to get it and I don't have the energy to engage with this goofy topic anymore

I mean at least l1c is likely but alr.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I mean at least l1c is likely but alr.

I will eventually revisit l1c based on a completely different argument.
Since the last time I brought it up the only actual counter argument was based on a member completely misunderstanding the standards, which I later even had an admin confirm. Basically meaning the thread died off due to a misunderstanding.


However nothing in this thread actually supports l1c. I understand why off wiki someone would think it does but within our standards here nothing presented in this thread even remotely implies L1C.