Mori Dan upgrade - I don't know what I'm doing edition

[DavidTPPM]

"Nirvana” (even in real-life Buddhism) is the state the Buddha attains by being outside the cycle of suffering. It’s not a “method” by which the Buddha ascends; the way the Buddha ascends is through liberation from the cycle of Samsara.

You said Mori ascends through karma. I said he doesn't which is objectively true.

Also we don't use "real life Nirvana" to scale Mori to 1-A so why would we use it to disqualify him? GoH Nirvana is never said to be identical to ours and generally the process of achieving it is relatively unknown.

Mori verbatim says not only that he freed himself from karma but that he ENDED the great karmic cycle. Yet nobody else achieved Nirvana. So clearly simply being freed from the cycle of suffering doesn't make one ascend to Buddhahood in-universe.

This is irrelevant to the conversation but alright.

It's not. The FAQ states this.

However, there are ways to bypass this barrier. For example, a non-1-A can be empowered by a higher entity into being able to influence things on a qualitatively superior level. This can happen either by a straightforward power boost, or by means of some innate metaphysical potential rooted in something from a higher reality (This can include both characters who are converted into natives of higher planes and characters who are physically lower-dimensional but have 1-A statistics). In neither case is the capability to reach into the higher level something emergent from the structure of the lower level, and therefore they are acceptable ways to get around the above hurdles.

I'm pointing out that Nirvana is some sort of innate potential tied to the higher plane (paradise) which Mori simply fulfills rather than getting there through some quantitative addition.

Meaning there aren't any contradictions

 

[DavidTPPM]

1-A God of Highschool before 1-A Sun Wukong is fuсking diabolical. It really shows how much of a circus the site is becoming day after day.

These things are usually a matter of having sufficient supporter base. I've been working on GOH alongside multiple people actively for years while I don't see anyone doing so for JTTW (there hasn't been a relevant thread in over 6 months).

So I honestly don't see what does JTTWs scaling have to do with GoH nor do I have any opinions on it, but I don't think it's a fair comparison. I mean we had 4-A Naruto sooner than 4-A GoH because of a lack of supporters at some point, that doesn't mean the site was bad but that the verse lacked supporters.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

You said Mori ascends through karma. I said he doesn't which is objectively true.

Mori ascends thanks to karma. In every Buddhist framework, the cycle of Samsara is what determines a being’s state. Mori needs to break free from that cycle to ascend, and the only way to do that is by freeing yourself from all negative human feelings and sins, that is, by purifying your karma.

You literally wrote in your own blog that karma controls all of creation, being a fundamental force that allows you to surpass the principles of creation.

Do you seriously think I haven’t read your blog?

Also we don't use "real life Nirvana" to scale Mori to 1-A so why would we use it to disqualify him? GoH Nirvana is never said to be identical to ours and generally the process of achieving it is relatively unknown.

I’ve never said anything about you using “real-life Buddhism.”

But I see you’ve just conceded that how that system works in-verse is ambiguous, so I don’t see any reason to give 1-A to something ambiguous in the first place.

Mori verbatim says not only that he freed himself from karma but that he ENDED the great karmic cycle. Yet nobody else achieved Nirvana. So clearly simply being freed from the cycle of suffering doesn't make one ascend to Buddhahood in-universe.

"THIS IS THE END OF THE GREAT KARMIC CYCLE AS I UNDERSTAND IT."

Where’s the evidence that the cycle completely stops after that statement? Because I read the chapter and the only thing that happens is that Mori gets an immense power-up.

Right after that statement Mori uses a karma attack, so if karma still exists then the cycle obviously still exists too.

I'm pointing out that Nirvana is some sort of innate potential tied to the higher plane (paradise) which Mori simply fulfills rather than getting there through some quantitative addition.

That’s something that isn’t stated anywhere in your blog or in any of the scans you’ve posted.

The fact that everyone can reach Nirvana in one way or another doesn’t necessarily imply that the being has some kind of metaphysical potential granted by Nirvana itself, it’s literally a massive leap in logic.

Through my own efforts I can become a dancer, does that mean there’s some kind of intrinsic potential in my DNA to be a dancer? No, not necessarily, it just means I can eventually meet the necessary requirements to become a dancer through training and lessons.

It’s something you need to prove with scans.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I will take a look at this thread later after i finish some of my works,

But from the ongoing debate between supporters and oppositions, Berny and MGQ have better reasoning and counterarguments. David was too focus on surface level meaning of word and still not provide the reason to counter the anti-feat where characters can ascend from the suppose non 1-A state to 1-A without external factor

Oh btw, if you can, give your thoughts please. Your stance would help the thread a lot.

 

[PowerToScale]

I'm not sure on the 1-A stuff considering you need A LOT of evidnece for it and GoH doesn't really give it plus staff votes

If you want to get staff attention, you can use the promotion page, just place your CRT in there

Content Revision Promotion Thread

Priority: 1  Verse: Cthulhu Mythos Description: P&A additions for top tiers

vsbattles.com

 

[DavidTPPM]

Mori ascends thanks to karma. In every Buddhist framework, the cycle of Samsara is what determines a being’s state. Mori needs to break free from that cycle to ascend, and the only way to do that is by freeing yourself from all negative human feelings and sins, that is, by purifying your karma.

Berny I'm telling you that's not how it works in GoH.
Mori ends the karmic cycle in general and purifies the entire universe of malice. If what you said was true and what made Mori ascend (which was never said) then the entire verse should have achieved Nirvana.

Mujin also gains a smaller version of karma and can even reject karma and he STILL doesn't achieve Nirvana. So again no Mori does not achieve through karma. There is an unknown connection between karma and Nirvana, sure, but to say karma is what made Mori ascend is just false.

You literally wrote in your own blog that karma controls all of creation, being a fundamental force that allows you to surpass the principles of creation.

Which Mori transcended into a state/realm beyond karma…

I’ve never said anything about you using “real-life Buddhism.”

You brought it up as an argument twice now so idk.

But I see you’ve just conceded that how that system works in-verse is ambiguous, so I don’t see any reason to give 1-A to something ambiguous in the first place.

The way Nirvana is tied to paradise being ambiguous is not bad for me, it's bad for your claim that it contradicts how 1-A works.

If we don't know how exactly it works YOU can't prove your claim that it's a quantitative addition and therefore can't be 1-A.

The burden of proof for this isn't on me but on you so ambiguity only hurts your position.

"THIS IS THE END OF THE GREAT KARMIC CYCLE AS I UNDERSTAND IT."

Where’s the evidence that the cycle completely stops after that statement?

YOU claimed that Mori freeing himself from the cycle is what made him ascend.

I'M claiming his statement isn't limited to just freeing himself but rather ending the cycle in its current form altogether.

If it doesn't stop after that statement your argument about it stopping being the reason behind Mori's ascension fails. If it does your argument also fails.

so if karma still exists then the cycle obviously still exists too.

Prove that. Because as far as I'm aware that's just a headcanon.

Also what exactly are you arguing against here? You claimed Mori freeing himself from the karmic cycle resulted in his ascension which is what I'm debunking here. And none of what you're saying is supporting the idea. If the karmic cycle still exists then the only statement implying Mori was freed from it before ascension doesn't mean he did which directly contradicts your argument.

And if it ended like Mori said than we're back to my argument that under your interpretation that'd make everyone in the verse achieve Nirvana.

The fact that everyone can reach Nirvana in one way or another doesn’t necessarily imply that the being has some kind of metaphysical potential granted by Nirvana itself, it’s literally a massive leap in logic.

I never said it's potential granted by Nirvana nor do I need to. I said achieving Nirvana itself is an innate potential that allows one to ascend to paradise.

And that's more than I need. Because again YOU are claiming the ascension is a quantitative addition and the burden of proof for that is in YOU. I don't need to prove a negative to your claim. You're trying to make a claim and then shift to burden on me.

That's like if someone calculated the vaporization of a wall and you asked them to prove the wall wasn't secretly made out of cotton candy.

Through my own efforts I can become a dancer, does that mean there’s some kind of intrinsic potential in my DNA to be a dancer? No, not necessarily, it just means I can eventually meet the necessary requirements to become a dancer through training and lessons.

That is exactly what potential is… You're literally asking "does me having the potential to become a dancer mean I have the potential to become a dancer?"

Also I'm not sure what you're saying I never provided proof for but assuming it's that everyone can reach Nirvana, here, it's said pretty directly.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I'm not sure on the 1-A stuff considering you need A LOT of evidnece for it and GoH doesn't really give it

I definitely agree we have a small amount of information to go off of. We could really use something like a guidebook to really
But I think the evidence we do have sets up at least a strong likelihood for the rating.

We have a direct statement and visual implications of Mori existing beyond all of existence/creation while being superior to it. I think most will agree that much is basically undeniable. The only thing that's truly questionable is to what level "all of existence/creation" extends. Which is why I totally understand scepticism towards but I think we can't really ignore all the evidence pointing towards a more absolute meaning rather than just a surface level one.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Berny I'm telling you that's not how it works in GoH.
Mori ends the karmic cycle in general and purifies the entire universe of malice. If what you said was true and what made Mori ascend (which was never said) then the entire verse should have achieved Nirvana.

Mujin also gains a smaller version of karma and can even reject karma and he STILL doesn't achieve Nirvana. So again no Mori does not achieve through karma. There is an unknown connection between karma and Nirvana, sure, but to say karma is what made Mori ascend is just false.

I don’t think you’re getting what I mean. To be able to reach Nirvana it’s not just necessary to purify your negative karma, you also need to exit samsara and stop having any kind of karma tied to your being at all.

In Buddhism there isn’t only negative karma, there’s also positive karma, which instead of making you reincarnate in Naraka, the animal world, or the human world, lets you reincarnate as a god/deva.

So “purifying the evil/malice of the universe” isn’t the only thing needed to reach the state of Buddha, and that’s something I myself implied in my previous message when I said that Mori needs to free himself from Samsara itself, meaning abandon the very concept of karma.

Now then, regarding how Mori reaches Nirvana, you literally have an entire sequence of everyone giving their power to Mori, which allows him to manifest his wings and destroy the last blue giant. By absorbing all that power, Mori literally reaches Nirvana, and afterward he’s able to recreate the entire solar system by using Karma, which implies that Karma is precisely the power that allowed Mori to reach that state, since as you yourself said, the opponent’s Karma allowed him to manifest his wings, the same thing Mori did and the same thing the narration explicitly defines as Nirvana.

The only reason Mujin doesn’t reach the plane of Heaven after the fight is because Mori literally erased him before.

So yeah, it's exactly as I said. The fight is extremely clear about that, I don’t understand why you’re making it so needlessly complicated.

Which Mori transcended into a state/realm beyond karma…

I’ve never said otherwise, but Karma is undeniably what allows the individual to transcend and free themselves from all the principles of creation, just like you wrote in your blog, so the method by which the state of Nirvana is reached is through karma, which, I repeat, is not 1-A by itself.

You brought it up as an argument twice now so idk.

Learn how to understand a text. I’m not accusing you of using real-life Buddhism, I’m just explaining basic notions of Buddhism to you because the work is based on and uses those, even if it’s not 100% faithful to the original.

The way Nirvana is tied to paradise being ambiguous is not bad for me, it's bad for your claim that it contradicts how 1-A works.

If we don't know how exactly it works YOU can't prove your claim that it's a quantitative addition and therefore can't be 1-A.

The burden of proof for this isn't on me but on you so ambiguity only hurts your position.

That’s not how the wiki works. If something is ambiguous, then it’s your job, as the one proposing the 1-A tier, to clear up all doubts in a satisfactory way. I’m just taking a simple skeptical stance, asking you to provide evidence that meets the basic rules for being 1-A.

We’re not in a Discord debate, we’re on a powerscaling wiki. Here we don’t assume the most exaggerated option over all the others; we stay conservative until the OP can fully prove that the character is stronger.

I find it unbelievable that I even have to explain this to you.

Also what exactly are you arguing against here? You claimed Mori freeing himself from the karmic cycle resulted in his ascension which is what I'm debunking here. And none of what you're saying is supporting the idea. If the karmic cycle still exists then the only statement implying Mori was freed from it before ascension doesn't mean he did which directly contradicts your argument.

I already refuted your argument. You don’t understand the basics of how Buddhism works.

After reading the whole fight I can confirm that at no point was any cycle destroyed. The only thing Mori did was purify the evil in the universe, which should be obvious, if he had destroyed the entire system then there wouldn’t be any more suffering in the human world, but that clearly isn’t the case, nor is it ever stated or implied.

Mori even decides to stay as a Bodhisattva in the mortal world precisely to keep cleaning up the remnants of his fight against Mujin.

I never said it's potential granted by Nirvana nor do I need to. I said achieving Nirvana itself is an innate potential that allows one to ascend to paradise.

And that's more than I need. Because again YOU are claiming the ascension is a quantitative addition and the burden of proof for that is in YOU. I don't need to prove a negative to your claim. You're trying to make a claim and then shift to burden on me.

It literally means the same thing but with different words. It’s a desperate last-ditch attempt.

And yeah, reaching Nirvana does involve a quantitative increase in power, like I explained in the first section of this response. Mori reaches Nirvana after receiving everyone’s power.

Now send scans showing that “achieving Nirvana itself is an innate potential that allows one to ascend to paradise” or whatever it is you’re arguing.

That's like if someone calculated the vaporization of a wall and you asked them to prove the wall wasn't secretly made out of cotton candy.

Holy false equivalence.

That is exactly what potential is… You're literally asking "does me having the potential to become a dancer mean I have the potential to become a dancer?"

What YOU are arguing, and what the wiki page is asking for to justify 1-A, is some kind of metaphysical potential understood as some sort of connection with the 1-A plane in order to ascend to it, in other words, that every being needs to be born with some supernatural metaphysical property in their being that allows them to ascend by itself.

This can happen either by a straightforward power boost, or by means of some innate metaphysical potential rooted in something from a higher reality (This can include both characters who are converted into natives of higher planes and characters who are physically lower-dimensional but have 1-A statistics).

The example I gave you about the dancer is to show you that you don’t necessarily need any metaphysical property in your being or any gene to develop the ability to become something, which is exactly what’s happening here: the characters don’t have absolutely any fundamental connection with Nirvana.

Also I'm not sure what you're saying I never provided proof for but assuming it's that everyone can reach Nirvana, here, it's said pretty directly.

I’ve never said anything about the idea that everyone can reach Nirvana. What I’m saying is that that doesn’t prove absolutely anything, nor does it help you at all.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I don’t think you’re getting what I mean. To be able to reach Nirvana it’s not just necessary to purify your negative karma, you also need to exit samsara and stop having any kind of karma tied to your being at all.

In Buddhism there isn’t only negative karma, there’s also positive karma, which instead of making you reincarnate in Naraka, the animal world, or the human world, lets you reincarnate as a god/deva.

So? Genuinely, I don't understand what are you talking about here? Why do you keep bringing up real life Buddhistic interpretations of Nirvana?

Now then, regarding how Mori reaches Nirvana, you literally have an entire sequence of everyone giving their power to Mori, which allows him to manifest his wings and destroy the last blue giant. By absorbing all that power, Mori literally reaches Nirvana, and afterward he’s able to recreate the entire solar system by using Karma, which implies that Karma is precisely the power that allowed Mori to reach that state,

You're right that karma is in a way tied to Nirvana. But not the way you think. Because by the time Mori actually ascends to paradise he no longer has the wings of karma as he ran out of energy. Same thing in the epilog where Mori no longer even has the cross that the energy was sent to he's still considered to be in a state of Nirvana.

That's because achieving Nirvana isn't tied to any particular power level. Otherwise Mujin who was directly relative and had his own mini-version of karma should have ascended to Nirvana.

The actual key to it was achieving unity between the demons, humans, and gods. It's directly shown that Mori achieved Nirvana as the fulfillment of a prophecy which the entire story hinged upon. The prophecy which claimed that an almighty God will unite all demons, gods, and humans which Mori fulfilled and united all gods, demons, and humans in a fight against Mujin.

So no it really wasn't that Mori achieved a certain power level thanks to average human level fodders borrowing him their power and that randomly skyrocketed him to these unreachable levels of power. It was Mori uniting all beings, dead and alive, friends and enemies as the primary narrative message of the final arcs has been that nothing and nobody is useless

The only reason Mujin doesn’t reach the plane of Heaven after the fight is because Mori literally erased him before.

This is the most hilarious headcanon I've ever seen tbh.

Not only has Mujin never even remotely been implied to have achieved Nirvana, not only did the Nirvana ascension save Mori when he was about to die with Xuanzang directly saying EVERYONE who achieved Nirvana ends up in paradise meaning Mujin should have been saved as well if he achieved it, but what allowed Mori to achieve Nirvana is LITERALLY THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF MUJINS ENTIRE PHILOSOPHY.

While Mori achieved Nirvana as he followed Xuanzangs teachings that paradise built upon sacrifices and suffering isn't true paradise and that nobody in the world is useless, Mujin literally went directly against it throwing away everything he considered useless and lost the fight because Mori united the people who Mujin threw away because he didn't consider them worth anything. Mujin possibly the person furthest away from achieving Nirvana in the entire GoH multiverse.

So yeah, it's exactly as I said. The fight is extremely clear about that, I don’t understand why you’re making it so needlessly complicated.

The fight is very clear and easy to understand if you actually read the entirety story and understand what it's about instead of reading one or two chapters in the desperate hopes of debunking a powerscaling argument.

I’ve never said otherwise, but Karma is undeniably what allows the individual to transcend and free themselves from all the principles of creation, just like you wrote in your blog,

That's not in the blog nor is it true. Karma has nothing to do with transcending. It's quite literally the opposite, the only person who we know ascends to Buddhahood doesn't have access to karma when he does so and ascending is directly said to cut your karmic ties.

Learn how to understand a text. I’m not accusing you of using real-life Buddhism, I’m just explaining basic notions of Buddhism to you because the work is based on and uses those, even if it’s not 100% faithful to the original.

I'm not saying you're accusing ME of using real-life Buddhism. I'm saying YOU are using real life Buddhism.

And while yes the work is greatly inspired by Buddhism and uses many Buddhistic elements, it's very far from faithful.

That’s not how the wiki works. If something is ambiguous, then it’s your job, as the one proposing the 1-A tier, to clear up all doubts in a satisfactory way.

It's my job to clear up any reasonable doubts. It's not my job to debunk your headcanon and fan fictions.

I’m just taking a simple skeptical stance, asking you to provide evidence that meets the basic rules for being 1-A.

No you're not. You're going out of your way to completely misinterpret and grossly twist the entire core narrative of the story just to go against the proposal and your own fan fiction about how Nirvana works.

Again this is like claiming that a wall might be secretly made out of cotton candy and expecting the other side to take it as reasonable skepticism. There's nothing in the entire manhwa that suggests Nirvana or ascension to Buddhahood is the result of quantitative addition that would lead to such scepticism. If anything it goes directly against it as it makes it perfectly clear that ascending to Buddhahood actually completely cuts you away from the physical world which effectively makes any and all power you had completely inconsequential since it's no longer a part of your being.

We’re not in a Discord debate, we’re on a powerscaling wiki. Here we don’t assume the most exaggerated option over all the others; we stay conservative until the OP can fully prove that the character is stronger.

I find it unbelievable that I even have to explain this to you.

There's a difference between being conservative and outright making things up and then expecting the other side to debunk them.

I already refuted your argument. You don’t understand the basics of how Buddhism works.

Good thing I'm talking about the hit webtoon "The God of High School" released in 2011 starring Mori Jin and featuring characters such as 666:Satan and Jay Doggy the trans football player, and not about any particular school of Buddhism.

Mori even decides to stay as a Bodhisattva in the mortal world precisely to keep cleaning up the remnants of his fight against Mujin.

No? What kind of insane misunderstanding is that?
Mori stays in the mortal world so he can live a happy life before he ascends and gets completely cut from his mortal ties. Mori staying in the mortal world is LITERALLY THE REASON why there even is anything to clean up.

Because again, the WHOLE NARRATIVE around Nirvana is that paradise built upon sacrifices isn't real paradise. That's why Mori's final test is whether he'll choose to sacrifice happiness or power with Mori now enlightenment choosing an option that creates a paradise without any sacrifices.

This is exactly what happens when you don't read a story and only try to read a small snippet with for the intentions of downplaying a character. A completely absurd misunderstanding of the story and characters involved…

It literally means the same thing but with different words.

No it doesn't. They're 2 completely different sentences with 2 completely different meanings.

Maybe you would have understood the difference if you actually read the manhwa instead of reading 1 or 2 chapters at the very end in the desperate attempt to debunk a powerscaling argument.

Mori reaches Nirvana after receiving everyone’s power.

I got hit by a car after drinking orange juice. I guess drinking orange juice causes car crashes.

Now send scans showing that “achieving Nirvana itself is an innate potential that allows one to ascend to paradise” or whatever it is you’re arguing.

Already did. Achieving Nirvana is an innate potential of all beings and all those who achieve Nirvana end up ascending to paradise.

Holy false equivalence.

When you're calling out a logical fallacy you have to actually explain why the argument is that fallacy. Simply name dropping it isn't an argument.

What YOU are arguing, and what the wiki page is asking for to justify 1-A, is some kind of metaphysical potential understood as some sort of connection with the 1-A plane in order to ascend to it, in other words, that every being needs to be born with some supernatural metaphysical property in their being that allows them to ascend by itself.

No. That's an appeal to ignorance.

Same way you don't need to prove walls aren't made out of cotton candy when arguing a character is wall level, I don't need to prove ascending through Nirvana is not a quantitative addition of power.

That only becomes a necessity if there's a logical reason to suspect it is, which there isn't.

I’ve never said anything about the idea that everyone can reach Nirvana. What I’m saying is that that doesn’t prove absolutely anything, nor does it help you at all.

It proves that achieving Nirvana is an inherent potential of all living beings. And given that Nirvana is directly tied to paradise and Buddhahood as achieving Nirvana always directly leads to ascending, that does undeniably mean that if Buddhas are 1-A then everyone has an innate metaphysical potential to become 1-A.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Honestly at this point I'm more annoyed at how grossly you twisted, misunderstood, and outright lied about the story in GoH for the purpose of powerscaling…

 

[Robo432343]

Honestly at this point I'm more annoyed at how grossly you twisted, misunderstood, and outright lied about the story in GoH for the purpose of powerscaling…

saying all this when you're the one whose tryna upgrade the verse to 1-A

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

I'm okay with 1-A.

This is somethin to wake up to thx

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

So? Genuinely, I don't understand what are you talking about here? Why do you keep bringing up real life Buddhistic interpretations of Nirvana?

I’ve already explained this. I’m not your mom, I’m not going to explain the same thing to you 5 times.

I’m literally refuting your argument that Mori somehow “destroyed” the system and that this fact should’ve made everyone ascend to Nirvana.

Ignoring my arguments is not a good strategy. If you’re not going to respond properly, then don’t waste my time.

You're right that karma is in a way tied to Nirvana. But not the way you think. Because by the time Mori actually ascends to paradise he no longer has the wings of karma as he ran out of energy. Same thing in the epilog where Mori no longer even has the cross that the energy was sent to he's still considered to be in a state of Nirvana.

In the first scan it doesn’t say anywhere that Mori ran out of karma, it only says he’s a bit tired. The fact that Mori doesn’t directly show his red wings doesn’t mean anything, since he can manifest them whenever he wants.

I don’t get what the hell the second scan is even supposed to prove. By that point Mori has already freed himself from the concept of karma itself, so he doesn’t need to manifest anything or have anything in order to be a Bodhisattva.

Are you even reading my arguments, or is your strategy just to waste my time until I get bored?

That's because achieving Nirvana isn't tied to any particular power level. Otherwise Mujin who was directly relative and had his own mini-version of karma should have ascended to Nirvana.

He achieved Nirvana, as I proved in my previous message.

Quoting myself:

Now then, regarding how Mori reaches Nirvana, you literally have an entire sequence of everyone giving their power to Mori, which allows him to manifest his wings and destroy the last blue giant. By absorbing all that power, Mori literally reaches Nirvana, and afterward he’s able to recreate the entire solar system by using Karma, which implies that Karma is precisely the power that allowed Mori to reach that state, since as you yourself said, the opponent’s Karma allowed him to manifest his wings, the same thing Mori did and the same thing the narration explicitly defines as Nirvana.

The only reason Mujin doesn’t reach the plane of Heaven after the fight is because Mori literally erased him before.

So yeah. You are just ignoring what I'm writing.

The actual key to it was achieving unity between the demons, humans, and gods. It's directly shown that Mori achieved Nirvana as the fulfillment of a prophecy which the entire story hinged upon. The prophecy which claimed that an almighty God will unite all demons, gods, and humans which Mori fulfilled and united all gods, demons, and humans in a fight against Mujin.

So no it really wasn't that Mori achieved a certain power level thanks to average human level fodders borrowing him their power and that randomly skyrocketed him to these unreachable levels of power. It was Mori uniting all beings, dead and alive, friends and enemies as the primary narrative message of the final arcs has been that nothing and nobody is useless

All of this you’ve written doesn’t refute my point in the slightest.

Uniting all demons, gods and humans and obtaining the power of all demons, gods and humans are not two mutually exclusive things.

Mori did both to ascend, so that part of your message was COMPLETELY unnecessary.

This is the most hilarious headcanon I've ever seen tbh.

Not only has Mujin never even remotely been implied to have achieved Nirvana, not only did the Nirvana ascension save Mori when he was about to die with Xuanzang directly saying EVERYONE who achieved Nirvana ends up in paradise meaning Mujin should have been saved as well if he achieved it, but what allowed Mori to achieve Nirvana is LITERALLY THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF MUJINS ENTIRE PHILOSOPHY.

I love the pathetic way you have of ignoring other people’s arguments.

Quoting my own message again:

By absorbing all that power, Mori literally reaches Nirvana, and afterward he’s able to recreate the entire solar system by using Karma, which implies that Karma is precisely the power that allowed Mori to reach that state, since as you yourself said, the opponent’s Karma allowed him to manifest his wings, the same thing Mori did and the same thing the narration explicitly defines as Nirvana.

The only reason Mujin doesn’t reach the plane of Heaven after the fight is because Mori literally erased him before.

The manifestation of the wings is explicitly defined as Nirvana in the manhwa, and it’s something Mujin also manifested in the fight. Mori only accessed Heaven after the fight was over.

The god who was able to access Heaven was the one who won between the two, that is, Mori Jin.

At no point does it say you can only reach Heaven when you’re about to die, and then you have the nerve to accuse me of being the one doing headcanon.

And LOL, the whole prophecy thing is hilarious because you still don’t understand what it actually means. Mori had to obtain the power of everyone else (which was a symbolic unification of gods, demons and humans) just to even reach Mujin’s league in the first place, and then Mujin, once he found himself being surpassed, also got the same power-up as Mori by gaining power from the people who are important to him, with Mori implicitly stating that he’s the same as him.

While Mori achieved Nirvana as he followed Xuanzangs teachings that paradise built upon sacrifices and suffering isn't true paradise and that nobody in the world is useless, Mujin literally went directly against it throwing away everything he considered useless and lost the fight because Mori united the people who Mujin threw away because he didn't consider them worth anything. Mujin possibly the person furthest away from achieving Nirvana in the entire GoH multiverse.

Useless babbling that the work itself contradicts. There isn’t a single, exclusive way to reach Nirvana. You haven’t disproved the scans I showed you at all.

What Xuanzang teaches Mori is that he shouldn’t leave everyone else behind, because even if he alone gets paradise, the true paradise is the one everyone can share, which means he has to become a Bodhisattva to help others reach enlightenment.

Can you stop taking things out of context and argue in good faith, please?

No? What kind of insane misunderstanding is that?
Mori stays in the mortal world so he can live a happy life before he ascends and gets completely cut from his mortal ties. Mori staying in the mortal world is LITERALLY THE REASON why there even is anything to clean up.

Once again playing your stupid game of being an insufferable pedant over nonsense instead of taking into account the general meaning of my argument.

The reason Mori stays in the human world is irrelevant; the point I’m trying to get across is that there are still monsters capable of causing destruction in the human world and therefore there is still suffering, which means Mori didn’t destroy Samsara like you were saying.

Because again, the WHOLE NARRATIVE around Nirvana is that paradise built upon sacrifices isn't real paradise. That's why Mori's final test is whether he'll choose to sacrifice happiness or power with Mori now enlightenment choosing an option that creates a paradise without any sacrifices.

I already answered this above. The point here isn’t that a Buddha stops being a Buddha if they don’t help others, the point is that true Nirvana is the general Nirvana, the one where all human beings can attain enlightenment. That’s exactly what the concept of the Bodhisattva is based on: people who, instead of staying in Nirvana, choose to come back and help others ascend.

This isn’t talking about the path to ascend, it’s talking about the moral philosophy behind that power.

You really have a serious problem understanding the meaning of texts. See? This is why you need basic knowledge of Buddhism to actually understand a work like this one.

But hey, you prefer being an insufferable arrogant instead.

Already did. Achieving Nirvana is an innate potential of all beings and all those who achieve Nirvana end up ascending to paradise.

It’s never stated that it’s an “innate potential” in the sense the wiki requires as justification. It only says that everyone, WITH HELP (a Bodhisattva), can ascend, which is logical.

If you’re going to keep repeating the same thing instead of refuting my points, I’ll take it as a concession and just wait for the staff instead of continuing to waste my time.

When you're calling out a logical fallacy you have to actually explain why the argument is that fallacy. Simply name dropping it isn't an argument.

If you’re gonna use an analogy, you should explain why your example is equivalent to what I’m saying, which you didn’t, so I’m not obligated to explain anything.

No. That's an appeal to ignorance.

Same way you don't need to prove walls aren't made out of cotton candy when arguing a character is wall level, I don't need to prove ascending through Nirvana is not a quantitative addition of power.

That only becomes a necessity if there's a logical reason to suspect it is, which there isn't.

DavidPPM discoving that powerscaling is based on appeals to ignorance in big 2025.

I guess I can argue a normal slice of life verse is outer just because it's never said or showed otherwise now.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I just responded to the relevant stuff. From now on I’m going to ignore all your comments that repeat the same thing.

Honestly at this point I'm more annoyed at how grossly you twisted, misunderstood, and outright lied about the story in GoH for the purpose of powerscaling…

Stop playing the elitist, weirdo. Stop accusing me of lying just because I don’t agree with how you overrate a fictional character’s power. Grow up a bit, you’re not 13.

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

This argument is really gonna keep going nowhere if you guys don't slow down and talk on your points one by one.

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

1-A God of Highschool before 1-A Sun Wukong is fuсking diabolical. It really shows how much of a circus the site is becoming day after day.

Reading JTTW is that much of a chore 2000+ pages ain't no game to play wit

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

"Nirvana” (even in real-life Buddhism) is the state the Buddha attains by being outside the cycle of suffering. It’s not a “method” by which the Buddha ascends; the way the Buddha ascends is through liberation from the cycle of Samsara.

A bit confused by this, so I indeed agree Nirvana is liberation from the cycle of suffering and the cessation of pain and ignorance, but I'm confused on why you said Nirvana is achieved "through" Karma.

because the way they do it is through karma, which is NOT 1-A and is just a quantitative increase of it.

From my understanding of Buddhist philosophy, you don't attain Nirvana "through karma." I don't wanna misunderstand incase you meant something else by it, so I'll just wait for you to respond just incase I got somethin mixed up on what you meant

 

[Kaydee1648]

I guess I can argue a normal slice of life verse is outer just because it's never said or showed otherwise now.

This is…. what?
I’m just gonna tell you to calm your tone a bit since you got sent to rvtr

 

[Shar122]

This debate suddenly became toxic for some reason
Y'all should chill out

 

[Robo432343]

yes
lets just wait for @Vietthai96

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

Yeah when Viet gets here they can explain their points to them rather than to each other it's clear those 2 don't wanna listen to one another

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm fixing my PC, so......gonna read all this after 2 days, that is.....

Also both sides make a summarise please

And chills out bruhh, this is just powerscaling fictions, not life and death situation

 

[karo_senpaii]

Arguing that some kind of quantitative power increase in Mori helped him reach nirvana is literally taking a piss at the author of GOH honestly.

 

[Robo432343]

Arguing that some kind of quantitative power increase in Mori helped him reach nirvana is literally taking a piss at the author of GOH honestly.

ummmmm

 

[karo_senpaii]

ummmmm

Bro clearly didn't attain nirvana there

 

[karo_senpaii]

Why are we even having this argument. Mori isn't the first to attain nirvana. Someone did before him, that someone had nothing to do with karma and had not jump in power whatsoever. She just reached it be discovering her potential.

If we already have the blueprint, then why are we attributing mori's enlightenment to a jump in power?

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

Why are we even having this argument. Mori isn't the first to attain nirvana. Someone did before him, that someone had nothing to do with karma and had not jump in power whatsoever. She just reached it be discovering her potential.

If we already have the blueprint, then why are we attributing mori's enlightenment to a jump in power?

There's a lot of issues I have with the contentions as well but lets wait for David and Berny for now, as it stands I feel like both sides got a bit lost in their arguments trying to reply to 5000 word text walls, so if they cool off and come back and discuss calmly it'll likely improve the discussion

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

ummmmm

This specifically is what peeves me, both David and Berny act like this is genuine Nirvana when it's a bit contradictory. Nirvana is attainable by ALL as per-stated by Xuanzang, sure she says "With a little bit of help anyone can reach Nirvana" but not only is getting help from literally everything in the universe not "a little" but it's literally impossible, Mori's situation was unironically and verbatim stated to be a miracle. To somehow be able to recreate this for literally every being in existence should outright be impossible because everyone loses their borrowed power the moment they give it to someone else.
Not attacking you Robo, just mentioning something that irked me in this discussion. I consider that "The Borrowed Power: Nirvana" rather than the actual state of being Nirvana in GoH

 

[karo_senpaii]

This specifically is what peeves me, both David and Berny act like this is genuine Nirvana when it's a bit contradictory. Nirvana is attainable by ALL as per-stated by Xuanzang, sure she says "With a little bit of help anyone can reach Nirvana" but not only is getting help from literally everything in the universe not "a little" but it's literally impossible, Mori's situation was unironically and verbatim stated to be a miracle. To somehow be able to recreate this for literally every being in existence should outright be impossible because everyone loses their borrowed power the moment they give it to someone else.
Not attacking you Robo, just mentioning something that irked me in this discussion. I consider that "The Borrowed Power: Nirvana" rather than the actual state of being Nirvana in GoH

Yeah not to mention xuanzang just didn't get this type of help. So clearly the help she's talking of has nothing to to do with power but something abstract

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Still heavily disagree with 1-A

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

Still heavily disagree with 1-A

We'll discuss your stance on it after we figure out David and Berny's battle to the death

 

[DavidTPPM]

I’ve already explained this. I’m not your mom, I’m not going to explain the same thing to you 5 times.

I’m literally refuting your argument that Mori somehow “destroyed” the system and that this fact should’ve made everyone ascend to Nirvana.

Ignoring my arguments is not a good strategy. If you’re not going to respond properly, then don’t waste my time.

That was never my argument. That was your argument. You said Mori ascended through karma because Nirvana is achieved through karmic liberation.

I only mentioned the karmic cycles to begin to show you that the only piece of evidence which suggests Mori achieved liberation from the karmic cycle before ascending would also suggest everyone else did. If you believe Mori didn't do so then the entire argument that Mori achieved Nirvana through karma falls apart.

In the first scan it doesn’t say anywhere that Mori ran out of karma, it only says he’s a bit tired. The fact that Mori doesn’t directly show his red wings doesn’t mean anything, since he can manifest them whenever he wants.

This is again a completely baseless headcanon and contradictory to what's said.
Mori directly says he's all out of steam and is about to get killed by an exploding planet.

When Mori had karma his control over all of existence let him instantly repair entire galaxies and purify universes but now that he's completely out of steam and no longer has karma he can't even fix the exploding earth. It's undeniable he didn't have karma here.

I don’t get what the hell the second scan is even supposed to prove. By that point Mori has already freed himself from the concept of karma itself, so he doesn’t need to manifest anything or have anything in order to be a Bodhisattva.

Are you even reading my arguments, or is your strategy just to waste my time until I get bored?

Wdym you don't get what the scan is meant to prove?
Epilog Mori doesn't have karma anymore.
Epilog Mori doesn't even have the tool used to channel karma to begin with anymore.
Yet epilog Mori is in a state of Nirvana.

He's not yet ascended and doesn't have the karma but he's still in a state of Nirvana which proves gaining karma is not what allows you to ascend like you claimed.

He achieved Nirvana, as I proved in my previous message.

So yeah. You are just ignoring what I'm writing.

All of this you’ve written doesn’t refute my point in the slightest.

Uniting all demons, gods and humans and obtaining the power of all demons, gods and humans are not two mutually exclusive things.

I agree. I never even implied they are I said the exact opposite.
Them giving Mori their power is the direct result of Mori uniting them.

Mori uniting all races results in achieving Nirvana.
Mori uniting all races results in them giving him their power.

Mori did both to ascend, so that part of your message was COMPLETELY unnecessary.

No, he only did one to ascend. The other is just the side effect.

I love the pathetic way you have of ignoring other people’s arguments.

Quoting my own message again:



The manifestation of the wings is explicitly defined as Nirvana in the manhwa, and it’s something Mujin also manifested in the fight. Mori only accessed Heaven after the fight was over.

No it's not you're just not understanding what you're reading.
The unison between the races which fulfills the divine prophecy is what is described to result in Mori's Nirvana. The manifestation of the wings is just a part of the prophecy.

The god who was able to access Heaven was the one who won between the two, that is, Mori Jin.

At no point does it say you can only reach Heaven when you’re about to die, and then you have the nerve to accuse me of being the one doing headcanon.

I think you should calm and read what I'm saying slowly because you're clearly off here.
I didn't say you can ONLY reach paradise when you die. I said that Mori got saved by ascending to paradise when he was about to die, so dying shouldn't stop you from ascending.

But most importantly, and this is something you entirely ignored, EVERYONE who reaches Nirvana ends up in paradise. So not only is Mujin achieving Nirvana a complete headcanon that goes against the core narrative of the story, but it's directly contradicted by what we're shown and told about how Nirvana works.

And LOL, the whole prophecy thing is hilarious because you still don’t understand what it actually means. Mori had to obtain the power of everyone else (which was a symbolic unification of gods, demons and humans) just to even reach Mujin’s league in the first place, and then Mujin, once he found himself being surpassed, also got the same power-up as Mori by gaining power from the people who are important to him, with Mori implicitly stating that he’s the same as him.

No not really.
That's the difference between karma and Nirvana.

Both Mori and Mujin have karma as a result of people precious to them borrowing them power.

But only Mori achieved Nirvana (as again undeniably proven by Mujin not ascending to paradise) because only Mori achieved the perfect unison between the 3 races. The sheer fact that they both gained power over karma but only one of them achieved Nirvana directly proves that karma is not what makes Mori ascend.

Once again playing your stupid game of being an insufferable pedant over nonsense instead of taking into account the general meaning of my argument.

YOU completely lie about what's said in the manhwa and COMPLETELY twist it by literal 180° to where you're saying the EXACT OPPOSITE of what was canonically said, and then say I'M playing stupid games?

I've never seen anyone so arrogant that they'd insult me and get mad over getting corrected on a clear lie.

The reason Mori stays in the human world is irrelevant;

Oh now it's irrelevant because I pointed out that you completely lied about it. It was relevant enough to lie about.

Mind you this can't even be a misunderstanding. Because the manhwa repeatedly says why Mori would want to say and what it means. This is like reading Naruto and then saying Sasuke is the 9 tails Jinchuriki.

the point I’m trying to get across is that there are still monsters capable of causing destruction in the human world and therefore there is still suffering, which means Mori didn’t destroy Samsara like you were saying.

YOU were saying he ascended thanks to freeing himself from karma.

It’s never stated that it’s an “innate potential” in the sense the wiki requires as justification.

If everyone can become a Buddha that means it's natural potential of all beings. Which is the definition of "innate potential".

And the wiki doesn't require anything more. Hell even this is more than the wiki requires.
The wiki requires that there isn't any evidence of contradiction.
Not evidence of the absence of contradiction.

This is like saying "the wiki requires that everything we see in GoH isn't just Mori's dream so unless you prove it's not a dream Mori can't even be 9-C". The requirement is a lack of known contradiction not counter evidence to all your fanfics and fan theories.

If you’re gonna use an analogy, you should explain why your example is equivalent to what I’m saying, which you didn’t, so I’m not obligated to explain anything.

If you don't understand an analogy then say that. Analogies are effectively self since they provide a lot more information.



Saying "this is a peepeepoopie fallacy" is n't.

I guess I can argue a normal slice of life verse is outer just because it's never said or showed otherwise now.

No, because that's an appeal to ignorance as well?
I'm not saying "Moris is 1-A because there isn't evidence he's not".

I'm saying "Nirvana doesn't contradict Mori being 1-A because there's no evidence of contradiction".

Stop playing the elitist, weirdo. Stop accusing me of lying just because I don’t agree with how you overrate a fictional character’s power. Grow up a bit, you’re not 13.

I'm not being an elitist. I think being slightly annoyed that a powerscaler who has never read a story is completely twisting and lying about for powerscaling downplay is a pretty reasonable reaction

 

[DavidTPPM]

At this point just drop a summary for staff to read and I'll do the same afterwards because this clearly isn't getting anywhere.

 

[ShroobWasTaken]

oh boy

 

[Thermor]

Agree with the OP.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

This is…. what?
I’m just gonna tell you to calm your tone a bit since you got sent to rvtr

What I’m trying to say is that the vast majority of powerscaling is based in part on the idea of “appeal to ignorance,” because you’re not supposed to assume the validity of something that would boost a character’s stats just because there’s no evidence against it.

That’s why I used the reductio ad absurdum of me scaling a slice-of-life character to Outer simply because there isn’t anything against that scaling.

Don’t tag me if you’re not going to contribute anything. You don’t have the authority to tell me to “calm down” when I’m not even worked up; you’re an image helper, not a moderator.

Don’t confuse being direct and not letting the other person slander me with having a toxic attitude, I’m arguing like everyone else.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I'm fixing my PC, so......gonna read all this after 2 days, that is.....

Also both sides make a summarise please

Yeah, I'm gonna summarize everything later.

 

[Voidnether]

1-A is fine by me, I don't know why 1-A is that complicated when most light novel fictions get it through viewing their universe like a TV where they physically can't interact with it directly since it's fiction to them. I feel like this is the most obvious case of 1-A if anything but that's just my opinion on it imo, I agree though.

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

That was never my argument. That was your argument. You said Mori ascended through karma because Nirvana is achieved through karmic liberation.

I only mentioned the karmic cycles to begin to show you that the only piece of evidence which suggests Mori achieved liberation from the karmic cycle before ascending would also suggest everyone else did. If you believe Mori didn't do so then the entire argument that Mori achieved Nirvana through karma falls apart.

This is again a completely baseless headcanon and contradictory to what's said.
Mori directly says he's all out of steam and is about to get killed by an exploding planet.

When Mori had karma his control over all of existence let him instantly repair entire galaxies and purify universes but now that he's completely out of steam and no longer has karma he can't even fix the exploding earth. It's undeniable he didn't have karma here.

Wdym you don't get what the scan is meant to prove?
Epilog Mori doesn't have karma anymore.
Epilog Mori doesn't even have the tool used to channel karma to begin with anymore.
Yet epilog Mori is in a state of Nirvana.

He's not yet ascended and doesn't have the karma but he's still in a state of Nirvana which proves gaining karma is not what allows you to ascend like you claimed.

I agree. I never even implied they are I said the exact opposite.
Them giving Mori their power is the direct result of Mori uniting them.

Mori uniting all races results in achieving Nirvana.
Mori uniting all races results in them giving him their power.

No, he only did one to ascend. The other is just the side effect.

No it's not you're just not understanding what you're reading.
The unison between the races which fulfills the divine prophecy is what is described to result in Mori's Nirvana. The manifestation of the wings is just a part of the prophecy.

I think you should calm and read what I'm saying slowly because you're clearly off here.
I didn't say you can ONLY reach paradise when you die. I said that Mori got saved by ascending to paradise when he was about to die, so dying shouldn't stop you from ascending.

But most importantly, and this is something you entirely ignored, EVERYONE who reaches Nirvana ends up in paradise. So not only is Mujin achieving Nirvana a complete headcanon that goes against the core narrative of the story, but it's directly contradicted by what we're shown and told about how Nirvana works.

No not really.
That's the difference between karma and Nirvana.

Both Mori and Mujin have karma as a result of people precious to them borrowing them power.

But only Mori achieved Nirvana (as again undeniably proven by Mujin not ascending to paradise) because only Mori achieved the perfect unison between the 3 races. The sheer fact that they both gained power over karma but only one of them achieved Nirvana directly proves that karma is not what makes Mori ascend.

YOU completely lie about what's said in the manhwa and COMPLETELY twist it by literal 180° to where you're saying the EXACT OPPOSITE of what was canonically said, and then say I'M playing stupid games?

I've never seen anyone so arrogant that they'd insult me and get mad over getting corrected on a clear lie.

Oh now it's irrelevant because I pointed out that you completely lied about it. It was relevant enough to lie about.

Mind you this can't even be a misunderstanding. Because the manhwa repeatedly says why Mori would want to say and what it means. This is like reading Naruto and then saying Sasuke is the 9 tails Jinchuriki.

YOU were saying he ascended thanks to freeing himself from karma.

If everyone can become a Buddha that means it's natural potential of all beings. Which is the definition of "innate potential".

And the wiki doesn't require anything more. Hell even this is more than the wiki requires.
The wiki requires that there isn't any evidence of contradiction.
Not evidence of the absence of contradiction.

This is like saying "the wiki requires that everything we see in GoH isn't just Mori's dream so unless you prove it's not a dream Mori can't even be 9-C". The requirement is a lack of known contradiction not counter evidence to all your fanfics and fan theories.

If you don't understand an analogy then say that. Analogies are effectively self since they provide a lot more information.



Saying "this is a peepeepoopie fallacy" is n't.

No, because that's an appeal to ignorance as well?
I'm not saying "Moris is 1-A because there isn't evidence he's not".

I'm saying "Nirvana doesn't contradict Mori being 1-A because there's no evidence of contradiction".

I'm not being an elitist. I think being slightly annoyed that a powerscaler who has never read a story is completely twisting and lying about for powerscaling downplay is a pretty reasonable reaction

Since this doesn’t refute literally anything I said and you’re clearly backtracking on your own ideas and going off on a tangent, I’m just going to avoid replying to this.

I’ll give my summary later. You do the same and that’s it.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Once again playing your stupid game of being an insufferable pedant over nonsense instead of taking into account the general meaning of my argument.
But hey, you prefer being an insufferable arrogant instead.

DavidPPM discoving that powerscaling is based on appeals to ignorance in big 2025.
I guess I can argue a normal slice of life verse is outer just because it's never said or showed otherwise now.

Don’t tag me if you’re not going to contribute anything. You don’t have the authority to tell me to “calm down” when I’m not even worked up; you’re an image helper, not a moderator.