Low 1-A Honkai Upgrade

[Voidnether]

And you assumed the highest one without a shred of it being mentioned. That is NLF

Aleph-1 or 0 means nothing on their own; they are just cardinal. 1D is Aleph-1 compare to 0D, 2D is Aleph-1 compare to 1D, they are just the scale of infinity, with this infinity is greater than other infinity

Well, if that's how you interpret aleph numbers

huh?. What I mean is they was talking about different topic, not different universes.

Yeah but the entire Hilbert Space stuff should apply to whatever cosmology was in there (I'll get to this point below whilst addressing the other one you meant with the Sea of Quanta)

Continuum Hypothesis is just another set theory where there is no intermediate cardinal in-between. For example, after Aleph-0 (countable infinite, natural number) is Aleph-1 (uncountable infinite, real number), there is no in-between. So i'm completely confuse about above baseline Aleph-1, and even the verse didn't suggest such a thing

I mean, Aleph-0 is just Hilbert Space, you get Aleph-1 by exponenting said Hilbert Space by an infinite amount of times. You get uncountably infinite dimensions as aleph-1 with this, if it were an above baseline aleph-1 it would mean said uncountably infinite dimension is multiplied: That in itself don't even mean anything, so what your point is that it has to be exponented and that'll just lead to Aleph-2, yes? If so, then Telomera is probably untrustworthy

Since the second one stated there are infinite lines perpendicular to each other. Dimensional axis is represented by Line, or Vector, so infinite lines are equivalent to infinite dimensional axes, and they are perpendicular which means different, infinite directions, not parallel

Though the 11D SoQ goes against this notion

Also iirc the spin-off novel didn't have official translation

Personally with this one, I don't think it should be applied to the Sea of Quanta but whatever universe HI3 takes place within so it shouldn't be an anti-feat. I appreciate it being High 1-B though, for the official translations: Yeah it doesn't have an official one but it doesn't matter, it's translated by a group of people on the abyss lab wiki (I think) and we used most of the scans related to VN from that. It's like slime reader in Tensura, but that one still had MTL translation with a human editing it whilst this one is purely translated by human iirc

 

[KingOfDarknessBelow]

Agree

 

[PedjaTarzan]

From hoyo cosmology blog:

Now, up to this point, it was actually later clarified in Durandal's visual novel that the 11-dimensional bulk space so-called "Ether Bathtub" isn't actually referring to the true form of the Sea of Quanta, but rather another structure that is greater than all of the Bubble Worlds that is encompassed by the Sea of Quanta.

Otto Apocalypse implied that the Ether Anchor is the special structure that stores all of the Bubble Worlds, its entire system and its merging and expansion; "membranes" refers to Bubble Worlds of endless varieties, even in sets of dimensional manifolds and volume.

Otto Apocalypse later explicitly asserts the Anchor Point is actually the topological space that exists between all dimensional folds, further proving that the "Ether Bathtub" is not actually referring to the Sea of Quanta itself, but rather a specific structure that is embedded upon it as a separate entity, called the "Ether Anchor".

Moving on, the Ether Anchor was later confirmed to be the root and origins of all dimensions, inferring to the "11 dimensions" mentioned along with the "Ether Bathtub". It was also all types of dimensional activities, such as the merging of dimensional membranes and Bubble Worlds, and traversal of Bubble Universes, all to have taken place within the Ether Anchor.

Up till this point, it is safe to say that the "Ether Anchor Point" is the same concept as the "Ether Bathtub" -- rightfully the same thing as the "Ether Bathtub", the 11-dimensional construct that was explained to shape all different varieties of Bubble Universes of different dimensional information in Durandal's visual novel.

yeah nothing about soq being directly 11D, only upscaled above bubbles for whatever reason
SoQ is easily 12D due to rivaling IT thats accepted as such lmao

Obviously because hoyoverse is so geneuenly cooked the writer of blog still assumed soq as 11D lmao
crazy shit

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I mean, Aleph-0 is just Hilbert Space, you get Aleph-1 by exponenting said Hilbert Space by an infinite amount of times. You get uncountably infinite dimensions as aleph-1 with this, if it were an above baseline aleph-1 it would mean said uncountably infinite dimension is multiplied: That in itself don't even mean anything, so what your point is that it has to be exponented and that'll just lead to Aleph-2, yes? If so, then Telomera is probably untrustworthy

 

[Voidnether]

its actually so over

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

its actually so over

I'm pretty sure the cardinality of something infinite dimensional is still equivalent to a comparative cardinality of aleph-1

 

[Voidnether]

I'm pretty sure the cardinality of something infinite dimensional is still equivalent to aleph-1

Technically only uncountable infinite dimensions are aleph-1, idk how would something infinite dimensional = aleph-1 even function if it's not an uncountable set

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Technically only uncountable infinite dimensions are aleph-1, idk how would something infinite dimensional = aleph-1 even function if it's not an uncountable set

1-D is uncountably infinite points, while 2-D is uncountably infinite in relation to that and so on (never breaches aleph-1). The logic stays at infinite-D even if the amount of dimensions is itself aleph-0.

 

[SuperNova55555]

1-D is uncountably infinite points

Well… not rlly…

 

[Voidnether]

1-D is uncountably infinite points, while 2-D is uncountably infinite in relation to that and so on (never breaches aleph-1). The logic stays at infinite-D even if the amount of dimensions is itself aleph-0.

I was talking about infinite dimensions specifically being aleph-0 dimensions here, hence why I equated hilbert space with aleph-0 dimensions

The one Vietthai gave and what you gave are the same thing but it's different from the analogy I gave as well, you see how I refer uncountably infinite amount of universes to be Low 1-C as in aleph-1 universes

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I was talking about infinite dimensions specifically being aleph-0 dimensions here, hence why I equated hilbert space with aleph-0 dimensions

The one Vietthai gave and what you gave are the same thing but it's different from the analogy I gave as well, you see how I refer uncountably infinite amount of universes to be Low 1-C as in aleph-1 universes

Also whats up with the transfinite stuff? Do you know how absurd it is to extend it all the way to a berkeley cardinal? Even if there was infinite transfinites that'd only be up to aleph-infinity. But even then that's an extremely absurd notion with the actual scan because it only says it's a higher infinity/transfinite compared to everything else rather than infinite transfinites.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Also whats up with the transfinite stuff? Do you know how absurd it is to extend it all the way to a berkeley cardinal? Even if there was infinite transfinites that'd only be up to aleph-infinity. But even then that's an extremely absurd notion with the actual scan because it only says it's a higher infinity/transfinite compared to everything else rather than infinite transfinites.

Demon King Daimou ahh scale

Also, what are your thoughts on the thread

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Also, what are your thoughts on the thread

neutral ngl

 

[Voidnether]

Also whats up with the transfinite stuff? Do you know how absurd it is to extend it all the way to a berkeley cardinal? Even if there was infinite transfinites that'd only be up to aleph-infinity. But even then that's is an extremely absurd notion with the actual scan because it only says it's a higher infinity/transfinite compared to everything else rather than infinite transfinites.

Because it was meant to be interpreted as "infinite" compared to all the transfinite cardinals, if Earth is established to be aleph-0 in dimensions and it's only the lowest — Actually nothing stops the Tree from being extended to Berkeley Cardinal, cause we have it as "Absolute Infinity". Only removed because it's the "sets of all sets" and said Absolute Infinity obviously isn't Tier 0 so it doesn't give anything

However, it should atleast imply the Tree works akin to a Von Neumann Universe structure even without the Absolute Infinity stuff using the statements above but yeah that's literally it and it doesn't even contribute much to the thread other than it being a supporting evidence that Honkai isn't limited to 11/12-D but whatever

 

[SuperNova55555]

neutral ngl

My arguments are always peak, buddy.

 

[Vietthai96]

I mean, Aleph-0 is just Hilbert Space, you get Aleph-1 by exponenting said Hilbert Space by an infinite amount of times. You get uncountably infinite dimensions as aleph-1 with this, if it were an above baseline aleph-1 it would mean said uncountably infinite dimension is multiplied: That in itself don't even mean anything, so what your point is that it has to be exponented and that'll just lead to Aleph-2, yes? If so, then Telomera is probably untrustworthy

Oke i need to respond to this. The reason I was confused, for the sake of arguing, if we truly follow Continuum Hypothesis, you can't have an intermediate cardinal, That means above Aleph-0 is instantly Aleph-1, and above Aleph-1 must be Aleph-2,.................................

So you can't have something such as above baseline Aleph-1, because above Aleph-1 mean Aleph-2

And Einstein using the concept of transfinite cardinal to compare Earth - a 3D object - to the Tree, which is higher-dimensional structure.

And I already said, +1D will make you uncountably infinitely greater, such as 4D is uncountably infinitely greater than 3D. The tree is 11D to 12D or whatever it is, was compared to Earth.

So what you said is completely untrue; Aleph-0 isn't the universe or whatever, but the Earth, and Aleph-1 is the Tree. So it isn't the Hilbert Space was multiplied by Aleph-1 but the Earth, this is an analogy. The Tree was compared to the Earth, 11-12D or Hilbert Space, whatever, was compared to 3D

Well… not rlly…

If I'm not wrong. Cantor set follow different thing, and no matter how much you stacking n-dimension upon each other, it will never +1D, because dimension is direction, as long as your other direction is 0, stacking them will always result in 0

Because it was meant to be interpreted as "infinite" compared to all the transfinite cardinals, if Earth is established to be aleph-0 in dimensions and it's only the lowest — Actually nothing stops the Tree from being extended to Berkeley Cardinal, cause we have it as "Absolute Infinity". Only removed because it's the "sets of all sets" and said Absolute Infinity obviously isn't Tier 0 so it doesn't give anything

However, it should atleast imply the Tree works akin to a Von Neumann Universe structure even without the Absolute Infinity stuff using the statements above but yeah that's literally it and it doesn't even contribute much to the thread other than it being a supporting evidence that Honkai isn't limited to 11/12-D but whatever

No, just because the Earth was considered to be the lowest doesn't mean somehow the tree must be highest cardinal, and the verse still need to drop what cardinal it is

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

Because it was meant to be interpreted as "infinite" compared to all the transfinite cardinals, if Earth is established to be aleph-0 in dimensions and it's only the lowest — Actually nothing stops the Tree from being extended to Berkeley Cardinal, cause we have it as "Absolute Infinity". Only removed because it's the "sets of all sets" and said Absolute Infinity obviously isn't Tier 0 so it doesn't give anything

However, it should atleast imply the Tree works akin to a Von Neumann Universe structure even without the Absolute Infinity stuff using the statements above but yeah that's literally it

Nothing implies anything here. The logic is very obviously flawed especially when you arbitrarily decide to stop at a berkeley cardinal when transfinites always extend. You cannot get anything here beyond "higher infinity" nor is it at all sufficient context to say it completely transcends transfinites and can be low 1-A.

 

[SuperNova55555]

If I'm not wrong. Cantor set follow different thing, and no matter how much you stacking n-dimension upon each other, it will never +1D, because dimension is direction, as long as your other direction is 0, stacking them will always result in 0

It’s cuz cardinality doesnt rlly have much to do with dimensions. That’s js a VSBW thing.

Aside from ig discrete vs indiscrete timelines; other than that all dimensions are equivalent to R.

 

[Voidnether]

Oke i need to respond to this. The reason I was confused, for the sake of arguing, if we truly follow Continuum Hypothesis, you can't have an intermediate cardinal, That means above Aleph-0 is instantly Aleph-1, and above Aleph-1 must be Aleph-2,.................................

So you can't have something such as above baseline Aleph-1, because above Aleph-1 mean Aleph-2

And Einstein using the concept of transfinite cardinal to compare Earth - a 3D object - to the Tree, which is higher-dimensional structure.

And I already said, +1D will make you uncountably infinitely greater, such as 4D is uncountably infinitely greater than 3D. The tree is 11D to 12D or whatever it is, was compared to Earth.

So what you said is completely untrue; Aleph-0 isn't the universe or whatever, but the Earth, and Aleph-1 is the Tree. So it isn't the Hilbert Space was multiplied by Aleph-1 but the Earth, this is an analogy. The Tree was compared to the Earth, 11-12D or Hilbert Space, whatever, was compared to 3D

If I'm not wrong. Cantor set follow different thing, and no matter how much you stacking n-dimension upon each other, it will never +1D, because dimension is direction, as long as your other direction is 0, stacking them will always result in 0

No, just because the Earth was considered to be the lowest doesn't mean somehow the tree must be highest cardinal, and the verse still need to drop what cardinal it is

I'd argue the Tree is H1-B if anything but fair

Nothing implies anything here. The logic is very obviously flawed especially when you arbitrarily decide to stop at a berkeley cardinal when transfinites always extend. You cannot get anything here beyond "higher infinity" nor is it at all sufficient context to say it completely transcends transfinites and can be low 1-A.

The point is that it stops at Absolute Infinity, it's unquantifiable, problem is whether we still quantify it as Absolute Infinity and hence unusable, or we quantify it as VNU and hence usable given the higher infinity evidence

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

I'd argue the Tree is H1-B if anything but fair

The point is that it stops at Absolute Infinity, it's unquantifiable, problem is whether we still quantify it as Absolute Infinity and hence unusable, or we quantify it as VNU and hence usable given the higher infinity evidence

Well the latter isn't at all feasible either.

 

[Vietthai96]

Absolute Infinity is either tier 0 or mean nothing at all

 

[SuperNova55555]

5 pages in 24 hours… exactly what I expected

 

[Voidnether]

5 pages in 24 hours… exactly what I expected

*close to 6
Anyways shouldn't matter, the physical plane of the Tree is still 1-B and probably High 1-B if anything and those barely affects the Imaginary Singularity or the Aeons

 

[SuperNova55555]

Absolute Infinity is either tier 0 or mean nothing at all

So what we thinking about the CRT rn vro

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

Can someone resume the points?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Can someone resume the points?

There’s rlly nothing else aside from what’s said in the OP honestly. Most of argumentation in the thread was about whether Aeons scaled to HooH or whatever but after we decided to js scale them to Low 1-A as well there’s no contention. And I’m pretty sure Telomera gave up as well and the other mods haven’t pointed out any issues after my explanations so…

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

There’s rlly nothing else aside from what’s said in the OP honestly. Most of argumentation in the thread was about whether Aeons scaled to HooH or whatever but after we decided to js scale them to Low 1-A as well there’s no contention. And I’m pretty sure Telomera gave up as well and the other mods haven’t pointed out any issues after my explanations so…

Are all Herrschers Low 1-A as well?

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Are all Herrschers Low 1-A as well?

Currently i dont see anything proving that
Maybe otto becoming part of IT upon transcending reality, but thats about it?
Everything else seems like putting them at 11D max
so aside from CoF Kiana no one else seems Low 1-A (besides the entire low 1-A is bde type 2 based so idk)
bring smurf hax back

 

[SuperNova55555]

Are all Herrschers Low 1-A as well?

The baseline for Low 1-A are the Aeons. Since they control all Imaginary of a specific concept, meaning their span is equivalent to the maximization of that concept which is Low 1-A.

Umm, technically anyone who can exist in Path Space can get some smurf-ish Low 1-A durability or something whilst in there, but they don’t get Low 1-A AP since to affect anything they’d have to project it into Real Space which is an implicit qualitative downgrade. Aeons do something similar but since they control all of a concept then they can manifest a Low 1-As worth of stuff into Real Space; this is additionally supported with all that HooH stuff.

 

[SuperNova55555]

The baseline for Low 1-A are the Aeons. Since they control all Imaginary of a specific concept, meaning their span is equivalent to the maximization of that concept which is Low 1-A.

Umm, technically anyone who can exist in Path Space can get some smurf-ish Low 1-A durability or something whilst in there, but they don’t get Low 1-A AP since to affect anything they’d have to project it into Real Space which is an implicit qualitative downgrade. Aeons do something similar but since they control all of a concept then they can manifest a Low 1-As worth of stuff into Real Space; this is additionally supported with all that HooH stuff.

This “smurf” stuff is practically only Emanators and up tho which we alr assign “up to 1-B” so it ain’t allat. It’s not even a proper smurf thing tho, since it’s practically just an incon button lol

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

The baseline for Low 1-A are the Aeons. Since they control all Imaginary of a specific concept, meaning their span is equivalent to the maximization of that concept which is Low 1-A.

Umm, technically anyone who can exist in Path Space can get some smurf-ish Low 1-A durability or something whilst in there, but they don’t get Low 1-A AP since to affect anything they’d have to project it into Real Space which is an implicit qualitative downgrade. Aeons do something similar but since they control all of a concept then they can manifest a Low 1-As worth of stuff into Real Space; this is additionally supported with all that HooH stuff.

They really should explain this properly on the cosmology blog.

I agree with the upgrade.

 

[SuperNova55555]

They really should explain this properly on the cosmology blog.

I’ll write the explanation myself and then the supporters can just put it wherever they want

 

[Viery]

This “smurf” stuff is practically only Emanators and up tho which we alr assign “up to 1-B” so it ain’t allat. It’s not even a proper smurf thing tho, since it’s practically just an incon button lol

Isn’t the place where Phainon scratched Nanook located in the Path space?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Isn’t the place where Phainon scratched Nanook located in the Path space?

It was stated as so, yea

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

Low 1-A makes sense to me.

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

so that makes it 1 more admin vote?

 

[Vietthai96]

so that makes it 1 more admin vote?

???

 

[CastoriceTheFifth]

???

Aren’t tier 1s like 2 mods 1 admin

 

[Vietthai96]

Aren’t tier 1s like 2 mods 1 admin

It is low 1-A so it need more, and you only have like..... 2 mods, i think you at least need 1 admin and 1 more mod. Also that is in case you don't have contention, if you have contention, you need even more votes to outvote the opposition

Edit: Honkai is a controversial verse iirc, so yeah that thing gonna add-up to the vote requirement

 

[Telomera]

It is low 1-A so it need more, and you only have like..... 2 mods, i think you at least need 1 admin and 1 more mod. Also that is in case you don't have contention, if you have contention, you need even more votes to outvote the opposition

Edit: Honkai is a controversial verse iirc, so yeah that thing gonna add-up to the vote requirement

I am contending with the upgrade. Literally nothing in OP's post even remotely implies Low 1-A AP, which is by definition quantitative superiority over all dimensional spaces. As demonstrated by OP's reply to one of my refutations:

If Space is a derivative of the Imaginary and incremental additions to it all undifferentiate once causally relating back to it, this by definition delimits quantitative addition lol.
Because if there’s no additional effort needed for the Imaginary to, say, create 4-dimensional space instead of 3-dimensional space, then it can’t be that it needs any more for it to create 5-dimensional space if all you’re doing is adding 0s.

OP is essentially assuming that just because Imaginary Space in and of itself (which "could not interfere with objects existing within the space of real numbers" and cannot "produce any sort of meaning" and is therefore doesn't have any AP) has no dimensional information and by extension no dimensional limitations, its power through its ability to project itself in real space must also have no dimensional limitations which is a huge logical jump, and one that we do not accept on this wiki. Our page on BDE straight up says that a character can "lack spatiotemporal features entirely, while not actually being superior to them in nature" as well as "still be[ing] comparable to dimension-bound entities in terms of raw power" which contradicts OP's argument directly. OP has yet to prove that Imaginary Space is full-on Low 1-A rather than simply BDE type 1. It's the same type of argument as "this guy is aspatial therefore his AP must either be 0D or outer."

OP does try to connect Imaginary Space's nature in and of itself with its ability to project itself in real space by appealing to the concept of "additional effort" but that literally makes no sense and is made up entirely.