Kara no Kyoukai - Swirl of the Root Tier 0 (Re-Retake)

[Tdjwo]

Damn it finally happened

 

[Reiner04]

Closing.

 

[Firestorm808]

Closing.

We're still waiting for the draft of the profile AP justification for final publishing approval.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

We're still waiting for the draft of the profile AP justification for final publishing approval.

The Swirl of the Root is where all phenomena flow, the Origin point that serves as the driving force behind all things. Precluding division and discrimination altogether, within it all descriptions dissolve into silence; and all that remains is a self-identical flow. It is the beginning and end of all things, neither an archive nor information — but existence simpliciter; outpouring causes infinitely. While it can be called 'Zero' and the 'Origin', such terms carry unnecessary colors that obscure the true meaning they intend to convey — as to be nameless is closer to its essence, consequently when it is called the Vortex of Origin it becomes different from「 」

 

[Firestorm808]

The Swirl of the Root is where all phenomena flow, the Origin point that serves as the driving force behind all things. Precluding division and discrimination altogether, within it all descriptions dissolve into silence; and all that remains is a self-identical flow. It is the beginning and end of all things, neither an archive nor information — but existence simpliciter; outpouring causes infinitely. While it can be called 'Zero' and the 'Origin', such terms carry unnecessary colors that obscure the true meaning they intend to convey — as to be nameless is closer to its essence, consequently when it is called the Vortex of Origin it becomes different from「 」

Thank you. Do you have the associated references for each scan? IE: Title and Chapter/Page

 

[Vietthai96]

Probably someone need to make a sandbox for the profile, since Akashic Records should be High 1-A+ and Root is 0

 

[ShinMaximillion]

I'm working on the sandbox atm, I'll post the link to it here when I'm done, mostly referencing is left, so give me a while once I get back from school.

 

[Tzimtzumim]

Thank you. Do you have the associated references for each scan? IE: Title and Chapter/Page

Not sure of how much this matters given the sandbox is being made with references, but can't hurt, so;
Kara no Kyoukai - Paradox Paradigm
Tsukihime Remake (Ciel Route) - Day 7
Kara no Kyoukai - The Hollow Shrine
The Adventures of Lord El-Melloi II - Fem's Casa (Lower)
Tsukihime Remake (Arcueid Route) - Day 7
Kara no Kyoukai - The Hollow Shrine (same as before)
Lord El Melloi II's Case Files - The Contract of Atlas (Upper)
(Ordered, based on the previous message). Can also pass the specific pages, though that might be redundant with the sandbox.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Swirl of the Root

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here, let me know if something is amiss. Aight, I'm dipping out for the day, have a good day to all.

 

[Robo432343]

Swirl of the Root

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here, let me know if something is amiss. Aight, I'm dipping out for the day, have a good day to all.

for the attack potency section its supposed to say Boundless not Tier 0

 

[SuperNova55555]

Standard Equipment: The Nasuverse

Ts was kinda funny ngl. Also it’d prob be better to add a border around the P&A section. Also BDE should be Type 3

 

[ShinMaximillion]

for the attack potency section its supposed to say Boundless not Tier 0

Lol, rookie mistake

Ts was kinda funny ngl. Also it’d prob be better to add a border around the P&A section. Also BDE should be Type 3

Aye aye Cap'n

 

[SuperNova55555]

Lol, rookie mistake

Aye aye Cap'n

Don’t forget to change the BDE vro other than that it should be completely fine, maybe you could bold the “Type” after each hax cuz I think that’s costumary

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Yeah, I did, had to dip for a bit due to some school lecture.

 

[Elyartaker]

Swirl of the Root

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here, let me know if something is amiss. Aight, I'm dipping out for the day, have a good day to all.

Lifting, striking, and stamina should be listed as Inapplicable while the rest such as durability should be Boundless.
BDE Type 2 should be changed to Type 3.
I don’t think the justification for Type 3 paraconsistent physiology is enough. it is based on formal opposites and truth values.
Same thoughts regarding acausality, I don't think the justification is accurate enough.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Lifting, striking, and stamina should be listed as Inapplicable while the rest such as durability should be Boundless.
BDE Type 2 should be changed to Type 3.

Sorry for a bit of a late response, currently arriving home.

Much appreciated though! I used the template of the previous Root thread as a base, mostly to save some time, prolly forgot to remove the rest as I was working on through. Stamina was already Inapplicable iir, and BDE Type 3 was pointed out by Super-Nova, thanks regardless.

I don’t think the justification for Type 3 paraconsistent physiology is enough. it is based on formal opposites and truth values.

This, though, isn't it that formal truths and opposites rely on the subject and object's division, of which the Root as non-dual omits. I don't think it has to be stated implicitly that it's beyond 'logical negation'; think it's already implicit.

Same thoughts regarding acausality, I don't think the justification is accurate enough.

Likewise, isn't acosmism implicitly [maximally rather] acausal, especially when predicable of something like an 'ultimate substance' that dreams of all things, cuz the broad implications are that change is an illusion and thus, causal sequences as well.

Quoting the Acausality page in itself:

Note that being utterly and totally immutable is something that, strictly speaking, is only guaranteed for characters with a Tier 0 rating, while lesser characters can only have likewise lesser forms of the ability by their own nature. They may, however, have a particularly potent form of immutability bestowed upon them by a Tier 0

Plurality: Beings which exist beyond the confines of classical logic in general, in a fashion that they may occupy truth values other than "true", "false", "true and false" and "neither true nor false". This includes characters existing in a nondual state regarding all logical dual systems within an entire level of reality in a way that makes them exist beyond the truth values of classical logic, instead operating on a many-valued logic system with at least five truth values. Such characters occupy a state where they are neither A, nor not A, nor both A and not A, nor neither A nor not A, instead existing in a state one can't describe using simple combinations of A and not A.

Furthermore, the Root has been called a chaotic and contradictory 'place' that contains everything and nothing, and is neither everything nor nothing, because [ ] negates both. But I don't think this matters because the Root has already been accepted for Paraconsistent Physiology Type 3, which I only stuck with that description because that's what's relevant to it as Tier 0, and it won't exactly be against paraconsistent physiology Type 3 because it is already non-dual sooo

 

[Elesia011]

Same thoughts regarding acausality, I don't think the justification is accurate enough.

The root is already defined as the initial ground from which all causality flows from, through the division of it's essence.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I don’t think the justification for Type 3 paraconsistent physiology is enough. it is based on formal opposites and truth values.
Same thoughts regarding acausality, I don't think the justification is accurate enough.

Personally finding this a bit nitpicky. I think the justifications are aight + what the supporters sent rn too

 

[Elyartaker]

This, though, isn't it that formal truths and opposites rely on the subject and object's division, of which the Root as non-dual omits. I don't think it has to be stated implicitly that it's beyond 'logical negation'; think it's already implicit.

From my understanding and based on what I asked around(from agnaa), Taiji as a whole does not grant any of the types, which is what the current justification uses. With the new standards that like a week ago, it must be tied to logical dualities and its relation to them.

Likewise, isn't acosmism implicitly, maximally rather, acausal, especially when predicable of something like an 'ultimate substance' that dreams of all things, cuz the broad implications are that change is an illusion and thus, causal sequences as well.

A Tier 0 should definitely have Type 5. My concern is with off wiki people who might use the justification on the page as the definition of what Acausality Type 5 actually is.

Furthermore, the Root has been called a chaotic and contradictory 'place' that contains everything and nothing, and is neither everything nor nothing, because [ ] negates both

I would advise linking those directly in the justification since it would align much better with our newer standards. Tho I’m still not sure whether it can remain Type 3, maybe it should be Type 1 or 2 instead.

But I don't think this matters because the Root has already been accepted for Paraconsistent Physiology Type 3, which I only stuck with that description because that's what's relevant to it as Tier 0, and it won't exactly be against paraconsistent physiology Type 3 because it is already non-dual sooo

The current pages and examples are outdated tbh, since Nonduality (now paraconsistent) updated a week ago, and most examples probably don’t even meet the criteria anymore.

I think it would be wise to ask a knowledgeable staff member about this, as the update is still quite new.

The root is already defined as the initial ground from which all causality flows from, through the division of it's essence.

Much better to use.

 

[Firestorm808]

To reiterate, this thread is regarding Tier. You can discuss abilities in a different thread.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

From my understanding and based on what I asked around(from agnaa), Taiji as a whole does not grant any of the types, which is what the current justification uses. With the new standards that like a week ago, it must be tied to logical dualities and its relation to them.

Alright, back home, but anyway, wasn't it that the reason was not that it is 'Taiji', but it is because it pre-differentiation and the term 'Taiji' is only used nominally and not as a justification.

A Tier 0 should definitely have Type 5. My concern is with off wiki people who might use the justification on the page as the definition of what Acausality Type 5 actually is.

That's on them, not gonna lie. Anyone who bothers to research even for 1 hour max would otherwise know that acosmism is just acausal. Since the idea of "all things being a dream of one ultimate substance" just means manifestation from that substance, is illusionary [transitory] relative to the ultimate substance itself.

You can't "change a dreamer" as part of its "dreams", and so hence the dreamer is just unchanging.

I would advise linking those directly in the justification since it would align much better with our newer standards. Tho I’m still not sure whether it can remain Type 3, maybe it should be Type 1 or 2 instead.

Yeah, it's already in the AP section. Most of the descriptions and scans on the page are defined in relation to other descriptions and scans.

Boundless (The Swirl of the Root is where all phenomena flow, the Origin point that serves as the driving force behind all things[9] . Precluding division and discrimination altogether, within it all descriptions dissolve into silence; and all that remains is a self-identical flow[10]. It is the beginning and end of all things, neither an archive nor information — but existence simpliciter; outpouring causes infinitely[11]. While it can be called 'Zero' and the 'Origin', such terms carry unnecessary colors that obscure the true meaning they intend to convey — as to be nameless is closer to its essence[12], consequently when it is called the Vortex of Origin it becomes different from「 」)

From this (and the entire thread/proposal), you can already surmise that:

• The Root is everything
• The Root is no-thing/emptiness/nothingness
• The Root is not nothing (Ryougi says it negates that when she experiences it)
• The Root is both everything and nothing
• The Root is not everything (irreducible to everything by itself) but only itself

[ ] is neither everything nor nothing, nor everything and nothing, nor not everything and nothing (because everything and nothing are simultaneously inclusive of [ ]).

I can change the justification to be a little more elaborate if you want, but at that point, I won't link any other scans because what is talked about here is already implicit in the description of the justification. I just think it'll look weird when I repeat the same thing for over four different abilities.

What Elesia showed is already implicitly in it, dreaming everything again. You can't have a "dreamt" thing outside of the causal efficacy of a "dreamer".
So any Godhead as the dreamer of all things is already implicitly the dreamer of all causal order. And even if I did go by this justification, it would have the same problems of a lack of elaboration, because being the source of all causality does not always necessitate Acausality (Type 5). You can have Type 4 just fine; this explanation is worse in terms of explanatory power.

To reiterate, this thread is regarding Tier. You can discuss abilities in a different thread.

Yeah, though personally I think abilities would definitely have to be discussed because it's now T0 for reason x,y,z, since something like acausality is basically what T0 already assumes you are, but it's just the two abilities at most being talked about right now, not even whether or not they qualify, but the justification itself.


By the way, this was the older justification for Paraconsistency Physiology Type 3

Paraconsistent Physiology > (Type 3; The duality of Yin and Yang can be defined as: A and B, which contain dots of opposite forces in themselves, it attempts to capture the essence of everything on a conceptual level. Ryougi is a Liangyi that divides, being in-between and contains both Yin and Yang, thus it can be defined as: both A and B and neither A nor B simultaneously. There is the Taiji, which is a nondual state of oneness that contains and transcends previous states, thus it cannot be defined as: A, B, simultaneously A and B, neither A nor B. The Primordial Chaos is similar to the Taiji, where the Imaginary Number Space is opposite to its. The Root contains and transcends all previous states, and any possible description or definition one could try giving is immediately separated into its own idea unrelated to 「　」)

Doesn't seem like much has changed, no? Though there is a question for the staff team, in that if it doesn't qualify, does it need a new thread to qualify now or.. is it that it needs a new thread to remove this current type?

 

[GZ2022]

Do you think we can include more power and abilities with scans for the power and abilities list? I have some.

 

[Vietthai96]

The old Paraconsistent Physiology Ttpe 3 justification isn't qualify under new standard now, it is metaphysical duality, the current standard using logical duality. Though Root still should have Type 1 at least due to the duality of existence and nonexistence in the verse. Though abilities should be discussed in another thread

The justification for tier 0 is fine to me, though what about Akashic Records?

 

[Re5yh]

Swirl of the Root

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here, let me know if something is amiss. Aight, I'm dipping out for the day, have a good day to all.

You would need to add Omnipotence, Omnipresence & Omniscience. Specific applications include: on top of the P&A like other tier 0 characters

 

[ShinMaximillion]

The old Paraconsistent Physiology Ttpe 3 justification isn't qualify under new standard now, it is metaphysical duality, the current standard using logical duality. Though Root still should have Type 1 at least due to the duality of existence and nonexistence in the verse. Though abilities should be discussed in another thread

The justification for tier 0 is fine to me, though what about Akashic Records?

Alright, it's fine, I just know non-duality is gonna be added to omnipotence anyway (as it should). It's only a matter of time; hopefully, it's sooner to save me the trouble of having to discuss the Root's abilities, since I wanted to focus on parts of the cosmology and power system now.

By the by, regarding Akashic Records
It should be fine as High 1-A+ as discussed previously, but I still feel like High 1-A+ delimits it since it's not unity-and-multiplicity, rather unity-in-multiplicity, but like there's no better alternative, because Tier 0 covers Existence analogically and on top of that includes even more radical accounts of simplicity and non-duality as part of the same Tier.

So High 1-A+ is fine for now, because in truth, the statements for it do make it seem like it has an asymmetrical relation to the Root
(since it's always a part of the Root and not the other way around).

You would need to add Omnipotence, Omnipresence & Omniscience. Specific applications include: on top of the P&A like other tier 0 characters

Ight, I mainly felt it wasn't necessary since I provided the justifications for them, and it'd just be an act of recounting them, but useful to know. I was thinking of making something in case of future tiering revisions but nvm.

 

[Vietthai96]

I just know non-duality is gonna be added to omnipotence anyway (as it should)

no, it seem like nonduality will not be added to Omnipotence by default

Tbh, Akashic Records should be tier 0, with Root being higher degree of tier 0 due to Apophatic Theology > normal Monad but the current system do not allow such a thing

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Swirl of the Root

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here, let me know if something is amiss. Aight, I'm dipping out for the day, have a good day to all.

The current profile contains this line, "as well as every power in the Nasuverse (It is the origin of all magic, concept and phenomena, in which all events happen and end all at once. Ryougi Shiki's connection to the Root allows her to utilize any power within the Nasuverse)." Will that stay?

Edit: As @Firestorm808 said, this thread is for the Root's tiering, so maybe I'll leave this for another thread.

 

[GZ2022]

Swirl of the Root

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here, let me know if something is amiss. Aight, I'm dipping out for the day, have a good day to all.

What about Power Bestowal, since it grants True Magic to those who understand the truth? And Soul Manipulation, every soul diffuses and returns back to their origin to reincarnate once more.
I also suggest we can give it another name, the Dharma.

Spoiler: Translations

Anatta-vijñāna — The Sublime Emptiness of MindAccording to the Dharma, shinkū (the complete/absolute void in the Mahayana tradition) is a state of absolute freedom. In this realm, all dualities simply vanish. The mind, in its intrinsic clarity, grasps the universal Dharma and penetrates the pure essence of existence, exactly as it is. The sky reveals itself as vast, colors blend into delicate shades. Standing at the misty boundary, your noble figure gazes upon the eternal wandering of the Stars.

 

[Antvasima]

no, it seem like nonduality will not be added to Omnipotence by default

Well, Ultima, FinePoint, and myself think that it should be automatically included, if I have understood correctly.

 

[ShinMaximillion]

no, it seem like nonduality will not be added to Omnipotence by default

Trust in the process, brother, trust

Tbh, Akashic Records should be tier 0, with Root being higher degree of tier 0 due to Apophatic Theology > normal Monad but the current system do not allow such a thing

We agree, I do think the same. But no choice but to make do with the current standards imposed, so High 1-A+ is fine, for now, that is.

What about Power Bestowal, since it grants True Magic to those who understand the truth? And Soul Manipulation, every soul diffuses and returns back to their origin to reincarnate once more.
I also suggest we can give it another name, the Dharma.

Spoiler: Translations

Anatta-vijñāna — The Sublime Emptiness of MindAccording to the Dharma, shinkū (the complete/absolute void in the Mahayana tradition) is a state of absolute freedom. In this realm, all dualities simply vanish. The mind, in its intrinsic clarity, grasps the universal Dharma and penetrates the pure essence of existence, exactly as it is. The sky reveals itself as vast, colors blend into delicate shades. Standing at the misty boundary, your noble figure gazes upon the eternal wandering of the Stars.

The next thread will follow on hax thoroughly, not this one, think it's been said before, but yeah. I won't comment on hax for now since it's unrelated to the purpose of Root as Tier 0, since Firestorm himself said the very same a few messages ago.

Though, regarding Dharma, they're not really the Ultimate Reality. They're just soteriological guiding principles, which is why the text also says "according to the dharma", since here it is that thing that gestures towards non-dual recognition and hence liberation from duhkha.

Mmm.. the reason why it says "grasp the dharma" is not because the dharma is interchangeable with the Root but rather that grasping the dharma and its aspects/what it encompasses (i.e four noble truths, noble eightfold path... Etc) is an important part in grasping the Ultimate Truth, so don't think that's necessary.

 

[BoastJr]

snip

Powers and abilities does look nice for a profile since its suppose to be informative, however I find it funny how its pretty useless on a tier 0 profile since its "matchup banned" effectively

the small quirks ya know

 

[Voidnether]

Powers and abilities does look nice for a profile since its suppose to be informative, however I find it funny how its pretty useless on a tier 0 profile since its "matchup banned" effectively

the small quirks ya know

The Root had the entire Nasuverse as its standard equipment and no one said a word

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Can this thread be closed now or?

 

[Antvasima]

Can this thread be closed now or?

Has everything that has been accepted here been properly applied?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Has everything that has been accepted here been properly applied?

The tiering is accepted but the hax seem to be reserved for another CRT, so honestly it'd be really strange to apply the former but not the latter... imo the Root's profile should be updated after the second CRT but ya'll can do what ya'll want honestly

 

[Antvasima]

Hmm. If we need to evaluate the Root's hax as well, I can ping the staff members who commented here previously, after somebody explains what needs to be evaluated here. Which ones have commented here previously?

 

[ShinMaximillion]

Hmm. If we need to evaluate the Root's hax as well, I can ping the staff members who commented here previously, after somebody explains what needs to be evaluated here. Which ones have commented here previously?

I'd recommend we do the haxes for Root and other matters in another CRT, since this one was primarily in relation to Root's tierings and its AP, with it only so much as extending to the haxes part due to acausality, for instance, being a very fundamental necessity to a Tier 0. We're all done and agree with that.
The haxes and discussing the nature of other characters ("Ryougi Shiki" for instance) should be for another CRT, which will be made soon, so this CRT can be closed, I suppose?

But as to answer your question, the staff who participated in the thread were Oblivion, Firestorm, Vietthai, Reiner, Qawsed, and Ultima, I believe.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

The tiering is accepted but the hax seem to be reserved for another CRT, so honestly it'd be really strange to apply the former but not the latter... imo the Root's profile should be updated after the second CRT but ya'll can do what ya'll want honestly

I think we can apply the revised tiering and apply the hax revisions after the next CRT.

 

[HigashikataJobin]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I'd recommend we do the haxes for Root and other matters in another CRT, since this one was primarily in relation to Root's tierings and its AP, with it only so much as extending to the haxes part due to acausality, for instance, being a very fundamental necessity to a Tier 0. We're all done and agree with that.
The haxes and discussing the nature of other characters ("Ryougi Shiki" for instance) should be for another CRT, which will be made soon, so this CRT can be closed, I suppose?

But as to answer your question, the staff who participated in the thread were Oblivion, Firestorm, Vietthai, Reiner, Qawsed, and Ultima, I believe.

Okay. Should we wait with closing this thread until you have started your new continuation revision discussion thread, so we can link to it here and our participants here can become more easily informed about it?