Low 1-A Honkai Upgrade

[Verezen]

“After Fu Xuan interrogated Kafka aboard the Xianzhou luofu, Kafka revealed to the Trailblazer that they would eventually face Nanook in the best and the worst cases. When that time comes, the Trailblazer will need all the help they can get, and it will be a "brutal struggle of Aeonic proportions." In the vast majority of futures, that's when destiny ends but if they follow Elio’s plan, there may be a "glimmer of hope on the horizon."

yeah sorry they definitely treat nanook’s promise of destruction as a threat. Idk what to tell you. Just ignore that he is a big bad threat that will cause a war of aeonic cataclysm.

Threat to the Trailblazer, and a struggle of Aeonic proportions… no shit we have several aeons duking it out. Show me one concrete statement that Nanook can do what you’re saying. Him promising “I will do it someday” isn’t evidence of him being capable. I can claim to become smarter than Einstein one day, that doesn’t make it true.

 

[Zefkiel]

So, can I please know where the Lord Ravager of Equilibrium is lelelelelel

Not only are you canonically wrong, not only are there statements going against this claim, but you're just straight-up ragebaiting atp. Congrats brother

Where is rememberance emanator? You do know emanators can still be made? Your point is moot and the story contradicts what you’re saying. Like what is this blatant denial lmao all of a sudden nanook isn’t the threat he was hyped up to be?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Threat to the Trailblazer, and a struggle of Aeonic proportions… no shit we have several aeons duking it out. Show me one concrete statement that Nanook can do what you’re saying. Him promising “I will do it someday” isn’t evidence of him being capable. I can claim to become smarter than Einstein one day, that doesn’t make it true.

Mind you, Imaginary Energy can flow from the future to the past (this is how Fuli and Terminus works btw), so if Nanook destroyed all Paths, then he would have to destroy all Imaginary Energy throughout all time too lol. Clearly that hasn't happened

Almost like some philosophies are greater than others...

 

[Zefkiel]

Mind you, Imaginary Energy can flow from the future to the past (this is how Fuli and Terminus works btw), so if Nanook destroyed all Paths, then he would have to destroy all Imaginary Energy throughout all time too lol. Clearly that hasn't happened

Almost like some philosophies are greater than others...

Almost as if you’re ignoring kafka blatantly saying nanook wins in most timelines lol

Kafka: Like I said: Elio withheld key pieces of information from me. The future holds endless possibilities. Knowing the right thing at the wrong time could spoil all our hard work. Kafka: There is only one thing I can tell you about the future: In the best and the worst cases, you will eventually have to face Nanookthe Destruction. When that time comes, you will need all the help you can get. It will be a brutal struggle of Aeonic proportions... Kafka: ...proportions that neither you, nor I, nor the Astral Express will ever be able to reach. In the vast majority of futures, that's when destiny ends. But if we follow Elio's plan, there may be a glimmer of hope on the horizon. Kafka: ...You know, (Trailblazer), even Aeons can be killed.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Almost as if you’re ignoring kafka blatantly saying nanook wins in most timelines lol

Timelines that don't happen the destruction can never arrive at those timelines because Finality is philosophically greater and thus those chances are buried

 

[Verezen]

Almost as if you’re ignoring kafka blatantly saying nanook wins in most timelines lol

Kafka: Like I said: Elio withheld key pieces of information from me. The future holds endless possibilities. Knowing the right thing at the wrong time could spoil all our hard work. Kafka: There is only one thing I can tell you about the future: In the best and the worst cases, you will eventually have to face Nanookthe Destruction. When that time comes, you will need all the help you can get. It will be a brutal struggle of Aeonic proportions... Kafka: ...proportions that neither you, nor I, nor the Astral Express will ever be able to reach. In the vast majority of futures, that's when destiny ends. But if we follow Elio's plan, there may be a glimmer of hope on the horizon. Kafka: ...You know, (Trailblazer), even Aeons can be killed.

She's saying he will win against the Trailblazer, not that he will sucessfully kill all Aeons. Insane cope. Especially when we KNOW of 2 Aeons who will survive

 

[Viery]

Honestly, I don’t see why Terminus existing after Nanook self-destructs should contradict the idea that Nanook can destroy all paths and Aeons. If Nanook can destroy everything—including themselves—then what happens next isn’t really their responsibility anymore; otherwise, we’d just be turning this into theorycrafting.

Take the Fuli case, for example: Nanook can destroy Fuli after they are born, which only happens after the universe itself is destroyed.


The Terminus case works similarly. Nanook could destroy Terminus after they nearly self-destruct and trigger the appearance of a new Terminus, because, according to Elegy, Terminus appears in every moment of Finality, not after Finality is over.”

(Mr./Ms.) (Trailblazer), memory is the breeding ground of dreams. Behind each of the many do-or-die battles you have experienced lies a potential Finality. The traces of Finality can probably be found there

Whatever outcome the devs pull, we still don’t know. But if they put that text in the databank, it means they’re not lying—unless someone can prove the text is false, or the devs later retcon it. In that case, the ‘proof’ would only exist in the future, when we reach the endgame.

And didn’t we start by talking about HooH and Nanook? How did the discussion end up shifting to Terminus and Finality?HooH doesn't have any statements that said to exist after the universe got destroyed.

 

[SuperNova55555]

It's not that Destruction can't kill Paths and stuff but it's that there many conflicting Paths and only the one philosophically denser can actually succeed. Equilibrium and Destruction completely contradict each other for example but only one can be true. Same for Finality... same for Remembrance etc. etc.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Honestly, I don’t see why Terminus existing after Nanook self-destructs should contradict the idea that Nanook can destroy all paths and Aeons. If Nanook can destroy everything—including themselves—then what happens next isn’t really their responsibility anymore; otherwise, we’d just be turning this into theorycrafting.

Take the Fuli case, for example: Nanook can destroy Fuli after they are born, which only happens after the universe itself is destroyed.

We know Fuli will reconstruct the Universe with memories; this happens when they are born, so it can't be that Nanook destroys everything if the universe still exists.

The Terminus case works similarly. Nanook could destroy Terminus after they nearly self-destruct and trigger the appearance of a new Terminus, because, according to Elegy, Terminus appears in every moment of Finality, not after Finality is over.”

Cue the word "behind".

And didn’t we start by talking about HooH and Nanook? How did the discussion end up shifting to Terminus and Finality?HooH doesn't have any statements that said to exist after the universe got destroyed.

You aren't tracking the argument. It matters because the only proof Nanook rivals HooH is if he destroys ALL paths. And we're proving that that's not true

 

[PedjaTarzan]

The entire prophecy about Nanook destroying all paths and aeons after destroying universe is trough lord ravagers killing Aeon they target, and from myriad celestia trailer about possibilites if we went to another planet instead of amphoreus we learnt that the lord ravagers that target other paths can rise and that hey are not limited to 7 we know now. meaning that only way nanook is doing this is by rising each lord ravager that can kill the specific aeon they target.
I dont rly get this entire Nanook vs Paths Beef, All paths tend to counter each other.
as Jingliu said its all a big chess of gods where pieces counter each other (paths counter another path).
i think currently the entire debate about Aeons and HooH is pointless because the entire point of Low 1-A crt is about what feats HooH do that puts him at Low 1-A/1-A
You can easily argue low 1-A for every aeon since their true self exist within Imaginary Space as higher dimensional beings (even if you say path space, that shit is still within imaginary space so nothing changes).
Yall went for 3 pages in less than 24 hours its crazy

 

[Weaver261]

I agree with Low 1-A CoF. But I don't see 1-A HooH working here. All paths are imaginary. A path have much greater power compare to another in terms of path width and experience of the Aeon but none of them are qualitatively superior to each other. Tazzyronth had to die because their existence threatened several paths of the universe including Equilibrium.
This shouldn't happen if HooH is qualitatively superior to Tazzyronth. And paths can be consumed by larger paths. We have seen this with Order being absorbed by Harmony. HooH is Equilibrium and everything against Equilibrium of zero sum is the threat.
In the same vein as Order vs Harmony, Equilibrium can also be disrupted by the outweighs of other paths. If 1-B paths can disrupt and affect the equilibrium that 1-A HooH emobies, HooH is not 1-A.
Also HooH can't be observed doesn't mean all Aeons can't observe HooH. The text means "the worlds". So this is not really proving inaccessibility. Yeah put me in disagree for 1-A.

 

[SuperNova55555]

I agree with Low 1-A CoF. But I don't see 1-A HooH working here. All paths are imaginary. A path have much greater power compare to another in terms of path width and experience of the Aeon but none of them are qualitatively superior to each other. Tazzyronth had to die because their existence threatened several paths of the universe including Equilibrium.
This shouldn't happen if HooH is qualitatively superior to Tazzyronth. And paths can be consumed by larger paths. We have seen this with Order being absorbed by Harmony. HooH is Equilibrium and everything against Equilibrium of zero sum is the threat.
In the same vein as Order vs Harmony, Equilibrium can also be disrupted by the outweighs of other paths. If 1-B paths can disrupt and affect the equilibrium that 1-A HooH emobies, HooH is not 1-A.
Also HooH can't be observed doesn't mean all Aeons can't observe HooH. The text means "the worlds". So this is not really proving inaccessibility. Yeah put me in disagree for 1-A.

Ye I ain't going for 1-A atp, just Low 1-A (I'll js take it out of the OP ngl). But I disagree with the middle part because zero-sum isn't identical to HooH themselves. I already explained how duality allows opposition within itself (the extremities of the other paths)

 

[PedjaTarzan]

I agree with Low 1-A CoF. But I don't see 1-A HooH working here. All paths are imaginary. A path have much greater power compare to another in terms of path width and experience of the Aeon but none of them are qualitatively superior to each other. Tazzyronth had to die because their existence threatened several paths of the universe including Equilibrium.
This shouldn't happen if HooH is qualitatively superior to Tazzyronth. And paths can be consumed by larger paths. We have seen this with Order being absorbed by Harmony. HooH is Equilibrium and everything against Equilibrium of zero sum is the threat.
In the same vein as Order vs Harmony, Equilibrium can also be disrupted by the outweighs of other paths. If 1-B paths can disrupt and affect the equilibrium that 1-A HooH emobies, HooH is not 1-A.
Also HooH can't be observed doesn't mean all Aeons can't observe HooH. The text means "the worlds". So this is not really proving inaccessibility. Yeah put me in disagree for 1-A.

i think if one path is 1-A all other would be 1-A and vice versa, this is why i mention the aeons existence in imaginary space and them being low 1-A too even if HooH is still above them.

 

[SuperNova55555]

i think if one path is 1-A all other would be 1-A and vice versa, this is why i mention the aeons existence in imaginary space and them being low 1-A too even if HooH is still above them.

Now that I think about it, Low 1-A Imaginary Space is genuinely valid. I have a very similar thing with Spirit World in LOTM who got accepted so I could just attempt that atp instead of bickering like lunatics

But uh, Aeons can't scale to L1A through HooH reasoning because unlike him, they explicitly take a side of a duality

 

[Verezen]

The entire prophecy about Nanook destroying all paths and aeons after destroying universe is trough lord ravagers killing Aeon they target, and from myriad celestia trailer about possibilites if we went to another planet instead of amphoreus we learnt that the lord ravagers that target other paths can rise and that hey are not limited to 7 we know now. meaning that only way nanook is doing this is by rising each lord ravager that can kill the specific aeon they target.
I dont rly get this entire Nanook vs Paths Beef, All paths tend to counter each other.
as Jingliu said its all a big chess of gods where pieces counter each other (paths counter another path).
i think currently the entire debate about Aeons and HooH is pointless because the entire point of Low 1-A crt is about what feats HooH do that puts him at Low 1-A/1-A
You can easily argue low 1-A for every aeon since their true self exist within Imaginary Space as higher dimensional beings (even if you say path space, that shit is still within imaginary space so nothing changes).
Yall went for 3 pages in less than 24 hours its

Idek why we’re arguing so much on other stuff, just stick to whether the scale presented by Op is logical, and then agree or disagree. And then once its passed make another crt about who scales to HooH.
Anyway higher dimensional things can by definition not be low 1A

 

[SuperNova55555]

Anyway higher dimensional things can by definition not be low 1A

Not necessarily depending on how we qualify "higher-dimensional", but we'd need A LOT of context on this and how dimensionality lends itself to Imaginary Space

 

[PedjaTarzan]

But uh, Aeons can't scale to L1A through HooH reasoning because unlike him, they explicitly take a side of a duality

not trough HooH but because their existence is tied to Imaginary Space, just their true self, the one like Nanook in Pathspace when phainon went berserk since avatars would scale lower because they explicitly need to manifest themselves in that form to interact with real space, but i think another crt will handle this.

 

[Weaver261]

i think if one path is 1-A all other would be 1-A and vice versa, this is why i mention the aeons existence in imaginary space and them being low 1-A too even if HooH is still above them.

I don't mind other Aeons scaling to HooH but the justification is kinda ass. HooH 1-A exists due to being qualitatively superior and undifferentiated compared to dualities which other Aeons are like IX. To get HooH 1-A, other aeons must be qualitatively inferior to HooH. There's no other way. If other Aeons are not inferior to HooH qualitatively, then HooH is not 1-A.

 

[Zefkiel]

She's saying he will win against the Trailblazer, not that he will sucessfully kill all Aeons. Insane cope. Especially when we KNOW of 2 Aeons who will survive

Holy shit. Kafka talks about a war of aeonic proportions and in most timelines destiny ends. And you somehow think it’s talking about trailblazer only? Insane ******* cope i’m sorry

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Anyway higher dimensional things can by definition not be low 1A

HooH is also higher dimensional if you count dev statement calling aeons "mysterious higher dimensional beings"
but term higher dimensional in hoyoverse isnt always tied to just +1D
you even have Ryusuke who explains whole R>F diff to welt but was sadly no diffed by gravity + dimensional manip.
However this doesnt affect Aeons and Imaginary Space as Imaginary Space would share exact same qualities as Imaginary Singularity (CoF) due to CoF existing within confines of imaginary space, so Aeons who exist within Imaginary Space since they are above Real Space (Physical universe of IT) they would also share the similar existence like CoF if this isnt any sort of anti feat.

 

[SuperNova55555]

Actually, we can just genuinely chainscale every Aeon to HooH now that I think about it.

HooH qualifies through Nonduality, but if we attribute Nonduality a derivative of Imaginary (the same way Nihility/Non-Being is a derivative of it), then we can attribute HooH as nondual to all qualifications of Real Space (i.e corporeally manifested qualities, whom are the only ones depending on HooH) and then every being who has the same amount of Imaginary Energy (Aeons) chainscales to it as we can js say Imaginary qualities don't appeal to HooH for being. This still reserves the L1A rating without issues.

 

[Zefkiel]

HooH cannot change Nous’s moments yet it’s superior to every aeon? Yeah unless you think Herta is a nonce every scene we have of HooH is it not being transcendent to every aeon.

“Is it possible to stop it from happening?

Simulated Universe: No.

The Equilibrium: Next, you sense THEIRpresence. With THEIR ancient dominance, THEY make things right with utmost precision and no deviation, only slightly affecting the angle at which the robot's chest is incised with a scalpel. You understand that this is THEIR third moment, and #27 Rubert is dead.

Is it possible to stop it from happening?

Simulated Universe: No”

 

[SuperNova55555]

HooH cannot change Nous’s moments yet it’s superior to every aeon? Yeah unless you think Herta is a nonce every scene we have of HooH is it not being transcendent to every aeon.

“Is it possible to stop it from happening?

Simulated Universe: No.

The Equilibrium: Next, you sense THEIRpresence. With THEIR ancient dominance, THEY make things right with utmost precision and no deviation, only slightly affecting the angle at which the robot's chest is incised with a scalpel. You understand that this is THEIR third moment, and #27 Rubert is dead.

Is it possible to stop it from happening?

Simulated Universe: No”

This is not an anti-feat, as there's nothing to say it's not within the chains of karma. It's not like it can alter the future lol (also mind you, he literally DID affect it but aigh)

Anyway lets stop with this I'm changing arguments most likely

 

[Zefkiel]

This is not an anti-feat, as there's nothing to say it's not within the chains of karma. It's not like it can alter the future lol (also mind you, he literally DID affect it but aigh)

Anyway lets stop with this I'm changing arguments most likely

it’s blatantly incapable of stopping nous when its moment hits. Like the fact it had HooH in this scenario and still said BLATANTLY it’s not possible to stop Their moment. Now add this with the fact in most futures HooH dies to nanook, or at least incapable of stopping them. It’s blatant it’s not superior to the other aeons.

Your proof for HooH>aeons is lackluster. We have to ignore every appearance where it is in fact not superior? And to mention Herta never mentions his supposed superiority?

 

[SuperNova55555]

Anyways Ima go do some currency wars or sum. Don’t start sum shit again and hopefully ya’ll happy with your L1A Aeons. As long as there’s no statement that delimits Imaginary/Path Space to any specific dimensional or spatial configuration (which would contradict a lot of statements if true), then there are completely no anti-feats for it.

Also having a special form of coordinate system is not a problem either, so exotic forms of space and time existing within Imaginary Space isn’t an issue; only if it’s articulated to be the same as space-time in Real Space. But considering the temporal dimension in Imaginary Space works like a spatial one, then it’s most definitely the former.

Also:

it’s blatantly incapable of stopping nous when its moment hits. Like the fact it had HooH in this scenario and still said BLATANTLY it’s not possible to stop Their moment. Now add this with the fact in most futures HooH dies to nanook, or at least incapable of stopping them. It’s blatant it’s not superior to the other aeons.

You did not comprehend what I wrote, at all. Nous’ moments are within HooH’s destined balances so there’s no reason to meaningfully alter them. They aren’t mutually exclusive. Like, none of what you’re saying is mutually exclusive with my points lol.

 

[Zefkiel]

Anyways Ima go do some currency wars or sum. Don’t start sum shit again and hopefully ya’ll happy with your L1A Aeons. As long as there’s no statement that delimits Imaginary/Path Space to any specific dimensional or spatial configuration (which would contradict a lot of statements if true), then there are completely no anti-feats for it.

Also having a special form of coordinate system is not a problem either, so exotic forms of space and time existing within Imaginary Space isn’t an issue; only if it’s articulated to be the same as space-time in Real Space. But considering the temporal dimension in Imaginary Space works like a spatial one, then it’s most definitely the former.

Also:

You did not comprehend what I wrote, at all. Nous’ moments are within HooH’s destined balances so there’s no reason to meaningfully alter them. They aren’t mutually exclusive. Like, none of what you’re saying is mutually exclusive with my points lol.

Other than the fact HooH appears multiple times in the simulated universe and the exposition society not once corroborates that HooH is superior to the other aeons. Matter in fact we get a statement that Tayzzy is a threat to the Equilibrium.

“The Equilibrium: "The radiance of HooH was also captured by the Simulated Universe," Ruan Mei continues. "THEY would not stand by and do nothing as the war raged on. However, the moments calculated by Nous did come true one after another as though no forces had interfered with them. Perhaps, some Aeons did or did not attempt to do so."

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

Deadass Honkai are back on being the weakest Low 1-A.

 

[PedjaTarzan]

Deadass Honkai are back on being the weakest Low 1-A.

from weakest 1-B too (i genuenly dont see any baseline 1-B outside us)

 

[Re5yh]

Looks good for Low 1-A, I agree

 

[MSahla]

 

[BoastJr]

snip

the weakest 1-B can solo antispiral so its a respectable tier anyways

Deadass Honkai are back on being the weakest Low 1-A.

Makina from IaP has low 1-A immortality but no actual stats on that level

 

[Reiner04]

Proposal looks fine to me

 

[SuperNova55555]

Proposal looks fine to me

Thnx, but um, please do try and check the CM1 thread if you can cuz that one’s been on a long ass limbo now

 

[Maniaunavailable]

agree (gonna get the same CM1 treatment but we move)

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

A non dogshit argument for Low 1-A Honkai? Incredible.

Everything seems fine to me, although I think Low 1-A Hooh is more coherent than 1-A.

Also, why would Yog’s avatar be Low 1-A? There is no evidence that the white space in GGZ is superior to the Tree or to the Imaginary Space as far as I know.

Well, to be fair most of GGZ scaling on the wiki doesn't make any sense.

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I mean most GGZ scaling doesn't even exist

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I mean most GGZ scaling doesn't even exist

I mean ideas like claiming that the Dreamlands or Babylon Academy are superior to the Imaginary Tree, the nonsense that “universe” in GGZ somehow equals the Imaginary Tree, and that the Outer Gods are stronger than the others just because yes, even though there are a ton of contradictions.

Hell, even tier 0 Yog is stupid.

 

[Voidnether]

A non dogshit argument for Low 1-A Honkai? Incredible.

Everything seems fine to me, although I think Low 1-A Hooh is more coherent than 1-A.

Also, why would Yog’s avatar be Low 1-A? There is no evidence that the white space in GGZ is superior to the Tree or to the Imaginary Space as far as I know.

Well, to be fair most of GGZ scaling on the wiki doesn't make any sense.

I mean we probably could have Yog's avatar as High 1-A+ already so it doesn't get changed from like High 1-C to 1-B, Low 1-A, 1-A+ and then downgraded back to Low 1-A and 1-B and then back again at Low 1-A if it wasn't for the avatars somehow being equivalent to CoF / Aeons

Felt like it would've been better to establish the former than the latter lmao

 

[AlipheeseXIV]

I mean ideas like claiming that the Dreamlands or Babylon Academy are superior to the Imaginary Tree, the nonsense that “universe” in GGZ somehow equals the Imaginary Tree, and that the Outer Gods are stronger than the others just because yes, even though there are a ton of contradictions.

Hell, even tier 0 Yog is stupid.

To the uninitiated tier 0 in general is just wordplay, doesn't help GGZ is mostly inaccessible to the large majority of people. Anyways, ya'll yapped so much in less than 24hrs bro I see Reiner agrees there. Idk jack about L1A or 1A but I'm wishing ya'll good luck...hope this doesn't turn out like...last time...

 

[ExcelsisBerny]

I mean we probably could have Yog's avatar as High 1-A+ already

Definitely not but anyways, let's not derail the thread, I'm gonna downgrade her personally.