One Thread Under Doom: A Key for Sorcerer Supreme Doom

[Eseseso]

Now that the OWUD storyline has concluded, I have decided to make an additional key for Doctor Doom to cover his Sorcerer Supreme version during this arc.

Spoiler: Powers & Abilities

• Enhanced Magic (Sorcerer Supreme level), as well as Time Manipulation & Chaos Magic (Capable of casting Time Magic and Chaos Magic, and is a master of Chaos Magic, as well as Dark Magic and Time Magic)
• Possesses the Eye of Agamotto and the Cloak of Levitation
• Space-Time Manipulation (Proceeded to casually tear apart and reconfigure space-time with a snap of his fingers, resetting the time of the Fantastic Four to before they even fought him. Magically blocked all time travel, and magically bound his reset engine to time itself, meaning that to destroy it would lead to the destruction of space-time across the entire solar system, with his magic making sure that it would constantly regenerate otherwise)
  • Sealing (Puts Reed Richards in an infinitely iterated fractal dimension, stretching all his cells so far that they can no longer be traditionally measured, before permanently sealing him off from the Astral Plane)
  • Temporal BFR (Splits up the Fantastic Four by magically sending each of them to a distant point in time, ranging from over 500 million years in the past to over 7 billion years in the future)
    • Portal Creation & Energy Manipulation (Created tendrils of energy to restrain 2099 Doom's allies before sending them back to their respective timelines via portals)
  • Time Stop (Stopped time for a single minute using a spell he mentally activated)
    • His time-stopping spell was able to work on Dormammu, a being constantly stated to be beyond and outside time and space, meaning that his time manipulation works on beings that are outside of time and thus are immune to standard space-time manipulation.
  • Causality Manipulation (Bent time and causality so that his trump card attack and subsequent victory cannot ever be undone, with not even Doom himself being unable to reverse the spell)
• BFR, Sealing, & Law Manipulation (Banishes Dormammu back to the Dark Dimension with binding spells of his own design to hold Dormammu there for eternity, with the forever-spell only ending once Doctor Doom's reign over Earth did)
  • Sealing (Restrained 2099 Doctor Doom with a spell)
  • BFR & Power Nullification (Used his mastery of Chaos Magic to strip the X-Men of their powers, implying that he could've made the nullification permanent if he wanted, before banishing them away from the battlefield)
• Summoning, Telepathy, & BFR (Could mentally summon Valeria to his Mindscape, telepathically talk with her even as his real body fought off an entire army of heroes, and then forcefully send her body back to the physical world)
• Biological Manipulation (Easily removes the flesh from Sinthea Schmidt's skull with magic)
• Transmutation & Power Nullification (Turned the Thing back into his normal human self)
  • Fire Manipulation (Turned the villain Burnout into a bunch of flaming birds)
• Metal Manipulation (Turned the Asgardian metals that made up an alternate universe Malekith's body into weapons)
  • Danmaku (Charged all his magics and powers into his armor, causing his armor to overload and explode into millions of magic-infused shards that one-shot an army of heroes, including the Thing and Beta Ray Bill)
• Teleportation & Invisibility (Casually teleports himself and Valeria to Canada and renders them both invisible and unhearable. Teleports himself away from the Fantastic Four)
• Summoning & Sand Manipulation (Created an army of soldiers from the sand to attack the Avengers)
• Perception Manipulation (With a Spell of Blindness from the Eye of Agamotto)
• Paralysis Inducement (Via a Spell of Inertness)
• Illusion Creation (His mystic illusion was capable of fooling Dormammu)
• Weapon Creation (In the scan above, creates a hammer to attack Dormammu)
• Energy Manipulation (Can redirect energy blasts as well as the energy blasts of his that an alternate Bishop absorbed. Creates magical armor around himself)
  • Fire Manipulation, Weapon Creation, & Energy Projection (Can replicate the flames of the Human Torch, the optic blasts of Cyclops, and Wolverine's claws)
• Light Manipulation (Could create a field of light around himself powerful enough to no-sell a blast from Dormammu, building up light energy before unleashing that light in a blast brighter than the sun)
• Magical Attack Reflection (Reflected Cosmic Ghost Rider's Penance Stare back at him with ease despite being restrained)
• Dimensional Travel (1-A range. Can travel to the realm of the Vishanti, as well as through the White Hot Room and the Far Shore)
• Power Bestowal (Gave Spider-Man arcane armor)
• Adaptation (Adjusted his armor to be immune to Valeria's frequencies)
• Resistance to:
  • Magic (Sorcerer Supreme level)
  • Chaos Magic (Wanda was unable to penetrate his shield and stated it would take weeks to do so)
  • Temperature Manipulation (His armor was immune to Iceman's temperature manipulation)
• With Optional Equipment:
  • Further Space-Time Manipulation (Using a combination of Sorcerer Supreme level time magic and his own scientific genius, Doctor Doom constantly bent the shape of time and reset the entire universe to an earlier moment every time the Fantastic Four got an upper hand against him, so only he would remember what happened and would thus know how to counter every strategy the Fantastic Four used against him)

Spoiler: Tiering and whatnot

• Attack Potency: Large Planet level (As he was given Doctor Strange's Sorcerer Supreme power, should be comparable to him [if not superior due to fueling his magic with millions of Latverian souls] and far above his own standard magic capabilities. Effortlessly one-shot an alternate universe version of Hulk-Form Amadeus Cho. Overpowered all of Mark 74 Iron Man's charged up and infinitely-looped energy with a finger), higher with his Ultimate Victory (Charged all his magics and powers into his armor, causing his armor to overload and explode into millions of magic-infused shards that one-shot an army of heroes, including the Thing and Beta Ray Bill)
• Speed: Varies from Hypersonic up to Infinite (Faster than his previous peak with magic. Kept up with Dormammu when the latter was outside of the Dark Dimension)
• Lifting Strength: Same as his base, if not superior
• Striking Strength: Planet level
• Durability: Same as his normal self, if not superior (Tanked a blow from the Thing who was using a Stormbreaker containing the combined energies of multiple heroes at once), higher with the Eye of Agamotto (Could create a field of light around himself powerful enough to no-sell a blast from Dormammu)

Spoiler: Notes

I am not scaling him to Dormammu for a few reasons. First off, while he does take a few hits from Dormammu and hurt him, he still gets quickly overpowered once he loses the Eye of Agamotto, even though this is a Dormammu outside of the Dark Dimension. Second, the rest of the heroes were able to pressure this Dormammu, with a punch from Carol Danvers hurting him, so it's clear Dormammu was kinda nerfed here (even if the writers did a good job with his character).

 

[Pluto321]

following

 

[Excellence616]

I agree. Nice work

 

[MrKerf]

Disagree cause Doom sucks

Looks good. However, you can't give him the Eye and Cloak as links to your blog, these things should have their own pages (I know you know, just saying)

Also, should we raise a point of giving certain powers to Strange if he doesn't have some?

 

[Eseseso]

Disagree cause Doom sucks

Looks good. However, you can't give him the Eye and Cloak as links to your blog, these things should have their own pages (I know you know, just saying)

Some day I'll make a page for the Eye

Also, should we raise a point of giving certain powers to Strange if he doesn't have some?

What do you mean?

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Cool, this is fine

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

This seems reasonable.

 

[ObberGobb]

Will he not have a 1-A end on his "Varies?"

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Will he not have a 1-A end on his "Varies?"

Read notes

 

[Eseseso]

Will he not have a 1-A end on his "Varies?"

Forgot to remove the "Varies" after I decided to remove the 1-A stuff.

 

[ObberGobb]

Forgot to remove the "Varies" after I decided to remove the 1-A stuff.

Why did you decide to remove 1-A? Even if you don't scale him to Dormammu, shouldn't he still scale to Doctor Strange?

 

[Eseseso]

Why did you decide to remove 1-A? Even if you don't scale him to Dormammu, shouldn't he still scale to Doctor Strange?

Strange is not the most consistent character, plus the heroes were able to pressure him despite being still inferior.

The closest he has to 1-A is scaring Blackheart, but even then is a Blackheart banished from Hell and turned into a human and nowhere near his full power

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Why did you decide to remove 1-A? Even if you don't scale him to Dormammu, shouldn't he still scale to Doctor Strange?

Isn't Stephen 1-A vía combine objects and specific magic spells (like literally call Master order and Lord chaos to give him a hand or summon Yggdrasil magic(which Isn't part of SS magic))

 

[Eseseso]

Isn't Stephen 1-A vía combine objects and specific magic spells (like literally call Master order and Lord chaos to give him a hand or summon Yggdrasil magic(which Isn't part of SS magic))

I would prefer to keep Stephen's 1-A stuff mainly to himself. especially as Doom was somewhat pressured by an army of mid-tiers.

 

[Antvasima]

Doctor Strange is also usually not treated as being anywhere near 1-A, as it narratively doesn't work to mismatch the power levels of regular Marvel Comics characters too much during interactions.

 

[MrKerf]

Doctor Strange is also usually not treated as bekng anywhere near 1-A, as it narratively doesn't work to mismatch the power levels of regular Marvel Comics characters too much during interactions.

Say it as it is, Ant. They nerf him for plot.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. The same meaning with different words.

 

[MrKerf]

Speaking of, which Marvel’s newest comics do you guys read currently?

I think Fantastic Four run is… well… fantastic. And Doctor Strange’s first issue looks promising as well.

 

[Antvasima]

I skim through different comicbooks, but really only like Thor among the ones currently published my Marvel Comics. Most of them seem really gratuitiously morbid, depraved, dark, amoral, and unenjoyable to me, the X-Men comicbooks in particular.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I don't really read the comics, but isn't X-Men like the one comic that SHOULD be morbid, depraved, dark and amoral? It's always been an analogy of racism and the divides and internal conflicts it causes. If anything it could be seen as undermining racism to depict it In a fictitiously happy and optimistic fashion.

 

[Antvasima]

The problem is that the Krakoa storyline irrevocably turned most of the X-Men into full hardcore villains in my eyes, without either the writers or the characters seeming to care about it, and their stories even attempt to twist satanically evil characters such as Apocalypse and Mystique as somehow being fully excusable, or even into being laudable and aspirational, without any bad consequences whatsoever for them.

If the villain antagonists are morbid, dark, depraved, and amoral that is one thing, as long as the narratives thoroughly condemn them for it, but evil versus evil storylines do not seem to fit in supposedly superhero narratives, unless the term "hero" looses all meaning in the context.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Maybe I should give the storyline a read to get a gist of what you mean. But from what I usually see Mystique flops between being a good person and bad person. Are you sure the story tries to twist what they've done as excusable as opposed to them being redeemable? I think that's an important distinction to make. I also don't think a story (or the author) are obligated to condemn something bad and thus convey some moral lesson (But I can save that for smth else). Evil vs Evil in a superhero storyline can work, I mean it happens in real life all the time. It's usually just a matter of who's the less evil of two sides and the dissatisfaction that a more optimal resolution couldn't be reached that make those type of storylines fun. But it's def easy to make them boring or poorly written. I won't clog up the thread with more back and forth but I did think this was an interesting conversation to have.

 

[Antvasima]

Mystique is an absolutely amoral, treacherous, dishonourable, genocidally bigoted, thrill-killing mass-murdering, depraved serial rapist, and diehard supremacist, who is far more satanically evil than the vast majority or real life hardcore Nazis. Any writers who attempt to excuse or idealise her after all the absolute atrocities that she has committed are absolutely disgusting scumbags as I see it.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I take it that you don't believe in redemption then.

 

[Antvasima]

I believe in redemption, but it has to be through a proportionate scale of genuinely good deeds, character development, and enormous prolonged effort to counteract the previous crimes and evils being committed, not by characters morally comparable to or even worse than Adolf Hitler and Josef Stalin suddenly deciding to pat a dog on the head and somehow being instantly redeemed and forgiven for all of their past atrocities, which is thoroughly inane, and how Mystique and Apocalypse have been handled at best, and people who inherently lack all traces of conscience, empathy, and compassion are obviously usually far harder to redeem than those who don't.

If you wish, you can read my old story until the final epilogue chapter and its author notes for my lengthy indepth analysis of how satanic evil fundamentally works and indoctrinates people, and what it would require to redeem it.

My story: "Vile Fables For Progressive Children"

Hello. I have republished my old story online, which I originally wrote between September 2006 and May 2008, after around 7 months of hundreds of gradual refinements and errors corrections, writing a final epilogue chapter, and rewriting the author endnotes, since I thought that its almost...

vsbattles.com

 

[LaserPrecision]

Well seeing as this is delving into something beyond the scope of Marvel alone I'll stop here. But I am willing to discuss this somewhere independent of the thread because I do find myself only half-agreeing with your drawn conclusion.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I said, if you want my full indepth study in satanic evil and the ideology behind it, and what it would require to redeem it, you can read my story linked above.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I don't mind eventually giving that a look. Though I would like a conversation on the philosophy of redemption. I enjoy conversations like that.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have already spent a massive amount of time analysing this topic, and yes, I believe in redemption, but think that an enormous amount of effort has to be involved for more severe cases, and that most genuinely evil people are ideologically amoral, and as such completely uninterested in redemption, since they consider all people who strive to be good as weak and stupid suckers and easier victims.

 

[Spinoirr]

The problem is that the Krakoa storyline irrevocably turned most of the X-Men into full hardcore villains in my eyes, without either the writers or the characters seeming to care about it, and their stories even attempt to twist satanically evil characters such as Apocalypse and Mystique as somehow being fully excusable, or even into being laudable and aspirational, without any bad consequences whatsoever for them.

If the villain antagonists are morbid, dark, depraved, and amoral that is one thing, as long as the narratives thoroughly condemn them for it, but evil versus evil storylines do not seem to fit in supposedly superhero narratives, unless the term "hero" looses all meaning in the context.

It would be interesting to have a story Arc explore the fact Cyclops became cynical due to everything he had to go through. That he lost any real hope for change as the world keeps beating them down

Anyways I agree with this, unfortunately strange gets nerfed in stories for P L O T

 

[Eseseso]

The problem is that the Krakoa storyline irrevocably turned most of the X-Men into full hardcore villains in my eyes, without either the writers or the characters seeming to care about it, and their stories even attempt to twist satanically evil characters such as Apocalypse and Mystique as somehow being fully excusable, or even into being laudable and aspirational, without any bad consequences whatsoever for them.

If the villain antagonists are morbid, dark, depraved, and amoral that is one thing, as long as the narratives thoroughly condemn them for it, but evil versus evil storylines do not seem to fit in supposedly superhero narratives, unless the term "hero" looses all meaning in the context.

I mean Doom did mention in OWUD how Krakoa was withholding vital medicine from humans

 

[Eseseso]

This seems reasonable.

Since this isn't a massive upgrade and there has been no real disagreement so far, is your approval enough or should I wait for more staff?

 

[Antvasima]

Since this isn't a massive upgrade and there has been no real disagreement so far, is your approval enough or should I wait for more staff?

I think that we likely need at least another valid staff approval first.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump

 

[ObberGobb]

Oh before its approved and implemented, I want to mention that there should be another note explaining why he isn't scaled to Doctor Strange's 1-A end. Your logic of him being pressured by characters very much not 1-A checks out, I just think it should be explained on the profile.

 

[Lynieryz]

[Agree FRA]
Two weaknesses should be pointed out:
1° Time-Stop needs to be limited; Doom can't move in it, only think.
2° The machine has a usage limit, and Doom used it all up with the Time-Stop.(Doom only had it for two Issues, I wonder if it should be optional equipment)

 

[Eseseso]

[Agree FRA]
Two weaknesses should be pointed out:
1° Time-Stop needs to be limited; Doom can't move in it, only think.

Pretty sure he pushed himself away from Dormammu during the time stop

2° The machine has a usage limit, and Doom used it all up with the Time-Stop.(Doom only had it for two Issues, I wonder if it should be optional equipment)

Tbf it took countless usages of it to burn it up.

 

[Lynieryz]

Pretty sure he pushed himself away from Dormammu during the time stop

Can you repost the scan? He can't move in his own Time-Stop in Fantastic Four (2025) Issue #3:

Tbf it took countless usages of it to burn it up.

It's still a limitation that needs to be mentioned. The difference between infinite uses and self-destruction after countless uses makes a big difference in a battle.

What do you think about making it optional equipment instead of standard? Especially since it only lasted for two Issues.

 

[Eseseso]

Can you repost the scan? He can't move in his own Time-Stop in Fantastic Four (2025) Issue #3:

I was referring to when he stopped time against Dormammu

It's still a limitation that needs to be mentioned. The difference between infinite uses and self-destruction after countless uses makes a big difference in a battle.

What do you think about making it optional equipment instead of standard? Especially since it only lasted for two Issues.

Fair enough, I'll change the OP once I get home in a few hours